Julianos and Twice-Born Star

EgoRush

NiclasFridholm wrote: »

I have gotten Molag Kena to procc on light attack weaving with Dark Flare, anyone else tried this!?

With DW swords that is...

I couldn't get it working with Purifying Light on DW/2H. Never thought to try with Dark Flare admittedly. I will give it a test too and let you know if I get it working

NiclasFridholm

Tested all Templar skills and this was the only one that was working. Not sure if it raises the DPS though since it is a channeled ability...!?

EgoRush

NiclasFridholm wrote: »

Tested all Templar skills and this was the only one that was working. Not sure if it raises the DPS though since it is a channeled ability...!?

Hmm yeah the cast time was always my issue with it. Plus it's usually best to not weave with Dark Flare as you waste the empower on a crappy DW attack. But proc Kena then get off ~5 Dark Flares and it could be good *shrug*

Digiman

The reason some will pick Julianos over Twice-born is because they don't need have the 9 traits required to make twice-born.

Malmai

Asayre wrote: »

There are significant changes due to to the change in Elfborn. If you are thinking about making Twice-Born, don't.

What does that mean ? Can you explain why not ?

Hiero_Glyph

Digiman wrote: »

The reason some will pick Julianos over Twice-born is because they don't need have the 9 traits required to make twice-born.

It's not only that. If you consider PvP and the fact that you cannot crit shields you lose most of the DPS from TBS compared to Julianos since it at least has spell damage. Without crit damage TBS is just a max tri-stat set while Julainos is a spell damage + max magicka set. The fact that Julianos is easier to craft and more consistent for damage is what makes it desirable. In the end both are incredibly viable.

tangy.citrus

Has anyone done a comparison between TBS and Scathing yet?

EgoRush

tangy.citrus wrote: »

Has anyone done a comparison between TBS and Scathing yet?

I haven't personally but I know a DK who prefers Scathing over TBS. A sorc friend of mine got his last piece recently and is thinking of doing a similar test.

Asayre

I was never able to get an uptime of >58% with Scathing Mage so I didn't think of comparing TBS and Scathing.

EgoRush

Asayre wrote: »

I was never able to get an uptime of >58% with Scathing Mage so I didn't think of comparing TBS and Scathing.

Was this on the PTS? My sorcerer friend and I went and tested it on the Bloodspawn the other day on live just in case there was any discrepancy between up-time on PTS and live. I had to rush off after the tests, but I'll check with him what results he got and get back to you. I was pretty tired at the time but if I remember right we tried to get it to proc from Liquid Lightning to no avail, but then Force Pulse was pretty damn good at keeping it up.

Asayre

Yes, I tried it on the PTS. I was using a force shock medium weave and I got around 40%. Perhaps you could get higher numbers with a light attack weave? Also all divines would definitely help.

oryxnamder7

Hi Guys

For a magica NB is the answer TBS? For PvE. Unfortunately I'm a Khajiit if that makes any difference.

Cheers

Colosso-monstro

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

Hi Guys

For a magica NB is the answer TBS? For PvE. Unfortunately I'm a Khajiit if that makes any difference.

Cheers

Depends on how many champion points you have

oryxnamder7

Colosso-monstro wrote: »

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

Hi Guys

For a magica NB is the answer TBS? For PvE. Unfortunately I'm a Khajiit if that makes any difference.

Cheers

Depends on how many champion points you have

Oh right I forgot that! I have 400.

Colosso-monstro

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

Colosso-monstro wrote: »

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

Hi Guys

For a magica NB is the answer TBS? For PvE. Unfortunately I'm a Khajiit if that makes any difference.

Cheers

Depends on how many champion points you have

Oh right I forgot that! I have 400.

I would think julianos but Asayre will know better

Timeetyo

Colosso-monstro wrote: »

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

Colosso-monstro wrote: »

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

Hi Guys

For a magica NB is the answer TBS? For PvE. Unfortunately I'm a Khajiit if that makes any difference.

Cheers

Depends on how many champion points you have

Oh right I forgot that! I have 400.

I would think julianos but Asayre will know better

For pure DPS, I agree. One thing I keep seeing overlooked in this comparison is what you will truly be at once HP are considered (especially for arena). For example - if I run 5/1/1 Julianos with entropy I am ~17.6k HP with nothing in health. With TBS and the same setup, I'm at ~19k HP. Now assuming I determine that I want at least 19k HP for arena that means I'll have to drop points into health from magica. To bring them equal at ~19k HP that takes 9 pts for me, which drops my magica by ~1500. Once this is factored in, TBS comes out quite a bit on top. There is also a side benefit of ~1200 more stam for block/dodge that helps TBS as well.

So - fore pure DPS - most likely julianos. If you need to add stats to HP for julianos it leans towards TBS coming out on top (at least for longer, I haven't done the calcs at 501 CP for varying HP levels.

This is why I'm going TBS for arena (once it drops - stupid console delay).

Asayre

Yes for pure dps you pretty much want to go Julianos all the time. If you have very low CP, TBS is sometimes better but since you'll get out of that low CP zone extremely fast I don't think it is worth the effort to make TBS. As @Timeetyo rightly points out, TBS offers more health and stamina which is handy for surviving particular encounters. Good luck with the arena @Timeetyo!

cschwingeb14_ESO

Something else to consider of you need/want more health is kagrenacs. Sure it's less spell damage, but rather than stam, you get more magicka regen.

In arena I'm running julianos/wisdom/1kena/magnus with 3x spell damage enchants, 501 cp and dunmer as race. On rounds that are not suitable to use elemental drain, magicka can become an issue. Rather than regear, I've just been overusing magicka pots, heavy weaving at times, taking care to kill things with destro and using overload to fill in the gap. Oh, and just dying sometimes

EgoRush

Timeetyo wrote: »

Colosso-monstro wrote: »

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

Colosso-monstro wrote: »

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

Hi Guys

For a magica NB is the answer TBS? For PvE. Unfortunately I'm a Khajiit if that makes any difference.

Cheers

Depends on how many champion points you have

Oh right I forgot that! I have 400.

I would think julianos but Asayre will know better

For pure DPS, I agree. One thing I keep seeing overlooked in this comparison is what you will truly be at once HP are considered (especially for arena). For example - if I run 5/1/1 Julianos with entropy I am ~17.6k HP with nothing in health. With TBS and the same setup, I'm at ~19k HP. Now assuming I determine that I want at least 19k HP for arena that means I'll have to drop points into health from magica. To bring them equal at ~19k HP that takes 9 pts for me, which drops my magica by ~1500. Once this is factored in, TBS comes out quite a bit on top. There is also a side benefit of ~1200 more stam for block/dodge that helps TBS as well.

So - fore pure DPS - most likely julianos. If you need to add stats to HP for julianos it leans towards TBS coming out on top (at least for longer, I haven't done the calcs at 501 CP for varying HP levels.

This is why I'm going TBS for arena (once it drops - stupid console delay).

Praise Molag Bal it's so cheap and easy to make new V16 armour, why not have both Julianos and TBS to mix it up?
/sarcasm

MrTarkanian48

Asayre wrote: »

Yes for pure dps you pretty much want to go Julianos all the time. If you have very low CP, TBS is sometimes better but since you'll get out of that low CP zone extremely fast I don't think it is worth the effort to make TBS. As @Timeetyo rightly points out, TBS offers more health and stamina which is handy for surviving particular encounters. Good luck with the arena @Timeetyo!

Would this statement apply for a stam khajiit NB debating between Hundings Rage and TBS? I have around 170CP, but play often and expect this number to go up fairly quickly.

I keep second guessing what I want to do, and obviously with the high material cost making a mistake is a big setback.

Basically trying to decide between TBS with Thief/Shadow or Warrior/Shadow Combo vs. Hundings with Warrior or Shadow.

Also if I go TBS Thief/Shadow, would sharpened still be the desire weapon trait, or with a 1.78 crit damage bonus would precise be more beneficial? I know its a lot of variables, but any advice would be appreciated.

Timeetyo

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Yes for pure dps you pretty much want to go Julianos all the time. If you have very low CP, TBS is sometimes better but since you'll get out of that low CP zone extremely fast I don't think it is worth the effort to make TBS. As @Timeetyo rightly points out, TBS offers more health and stamina which is handy for surviving particular encounters. Good luck with the arena @Timeetyo!

Would this statement apply for a stam khajiit NB debating between Hundings Rage and TBS? I have around 170CP, but play often and expect this number to go up fairly quickly.

I keep second guessing what I want to do, and obviously with the high material cost making a mistake is a big setback.

Basically trying to decide between TBS with Thief/Shadow or Warrior/Shadow Combo vs. Hundings with Warrior or Shadow.

Also if I go TBS Thief/Shadow, would sharpened still be the desire weapon trait, or with a 1.78 crit damage bonus would precise be more beneficial? I know its a lot of variables, but any advice would be appreciated.

For a Khajit NB there are a few other factors, namely:
- 8% racial crit (i'm not sure if this is fixed yet, check PTS forums for details)
- How many assassination skills on the bar (@2% per)
- Extra crit from NB passives

With the big disclaimer that I haven't crunched the numbers....the higher your crit (excluding julianos/TBS) the more TBS is favored. For example, at my (low) CP, TBS is just barely ahead of julianos (0.3%) when including all expected buffs. When I add 10% base crit (just guessing here - khajit + NB passive proc) to both in my calculations TBS moves ahead by ~1.3%.

...that is....assuming they fixed the khajit racial...

Ezareth

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Yes for pure dps you pretty much want to go Julianos all the time. If you have very low CP, TBS is sometimes better but since you'll get out of that low CP zone extremely fast I don't think it is worth the effort to make TBS. As @Timeetyo rightly points out, TBS offers more health and stamina which is handy for surviving particular encounters. Good luck with the arena @Timeetyo!

Would this statement apply for a stam khajiit NB debating between Hundings Rage and TBS? I have around 170CP, but play often and expect this number to go up fairly quickly.

I keep second guessing what I want to do, and obviously with the high material cost making a mistake is a big setback.

Basically trying to decide between TBS with Thief/Shadow or Warrior/Shadow Combo vs. Hundings with Warrior or Shadow.

Also if I go TBS Thief/Shadow, would sharpened still be the desire weapon trait, or with a 1.78 crit damage bonus would precise be more beneficial? I know its a lot of variables, but any advice would be appreciated.

There are many factors to be considered as a nightblade. Nightblades benefit more than any other class from raw weapon damage because they have the highest crit% and the highest crit damage . This means that Hundings rage will provide the greatest increase in DPS to you as a 5 Piece.

I suspect that thief would still beat out warrior when using Hundings since 11% Crit with at least ~165-170% Crit damage will beat out the extra 166 Weapon damage (pre-buffed). I'm not certain why so many players prefer shadow as their sole mundus stone as I can't think of a practical scenario where Shadow (12% Crit Damage) beats out Theif (11% Crit).

As a general rule with damage stats, the more you increase your Damage, Crit or Crit Damage the less valuable it becomes relative to the others. And even mix is usually your best except in circumstances your choices themselves are not balanced with each other (such as mundus stones)

Asayre

In the spreadsheets below, I have introduced a new metric called the Combined Metric. This metric was introduced because staff attacks scale differently from abilities. For most abilities 10.5 Max Magicka ~ 1 Spell Damage but for staff attacks 40 Max Magicka ~ 1 Spell Damage. To obtain the Combined Metric, I assume approximately 15% of total dps comes from Heavy (Medium Attacks) and 85% comes from abilities, then the weighted average of the Ability and Attack metric results in the Combined Metric.

We see then that for the Combined Metric on staffs, Law of Julianos is better by about 1.5%. Previously, my calculations showed that Law of Julianos was ~0.5% better than TBS but that was without taking into account the higher Attack Metric. On the dual wield bar, we should use the Ability Metric since no weaves are used and in this situation Julianos is better by around 0.5%.

If you were to replace one magicka enchantment on a large piece in favour of health so that the Health with Julianos and Twice-Born Star are comparable then on the staff bar Julianos is better by 0.1% but worse by 0.1% on the dual wield bar. To help put all these percentage differences into context, my rough calculations suggest that not having Divines on one piece (maybe you have been unlucky and have a bank full of Well-Fitted Molag Kena shoulders/helm) equates to a loss of ~0.5%

I've heard of people saying that Twice-Born Star is better with lower CP but I have yet to see extensive calculations that demonstrate this. Using the spreadsheets below, I varied the amount of CP by adjusting both the number of points invested into the Mage Tree and assumed that the first 100 points will be put into Elemental Expert followed by all points (up to 66) into Elfborn. While this CP distribution is not absolutely optimal, it is reasonably close. In this case, even with 100 Mage CP (300 total CP) Julianos is better than Twice-Born Staf on the staff bar (0.3%). On the Dual-Wield bar, Julianos outperforms Twice-Born Star at 129 Mage CP (387 total CP)

Twice-Born Star Staff


Twice-Born Star Dual Wield


Law of Julianos Staff


Law of Julianos Dual Wield


Edit note: This applies for Sorcerers. And I'm not as sure for Stamina builds since I don't play one but I believe @Ezareth is right that Thief is better than Warrior. The Shadow Mundus should be considered if your Critical Multiplier is less than ~1.1*Critical Chance. For clarity, your Critical Multiplier is defined as
Crit hit/Non-crit Hit - 1

Also ignore the Magicka Recovery and Spell Cost boxes. I was too lazy to move them away...

Xantaria

Have people considred that as a Stamina build Khajiit TBS user you will have over 90% base Crit and thus will put all your points into Precise Strikes? As more % of your damage are Crits than % of your damage is physical.
Since Precise Strikes is now working correctly it offers the same 25% increase all other CP passives offer.
I think for extremely crit focused Stam builds: TBS always > Hunding's.

actosh

Xantaria wrote: »

Have people considred that as a Stamina build Khajiit TBS user you will have over 90% Crit and thus will put all your points into Precise Strikes? As more % of your damage are Crits than % of your damage is physical.
Since Precise Strikes is now working correctly it offers the same 25% increase all other CP passives offer.
I think for extremely crit focused Stam builds: TBS always > Hunding's.

Would be a sick build, Critcat

Trihugger

Xantaria wrote: »

Have people considred that as a Stamina build Khajiit TBS user you will have over 90% Crit and thus will put all your points into Precise Strikes? As more % of your damage are Crits than % of your damage is physical.
Since Precise Strikes is now working correctly it offers the same 25% increase all other CP passives offer.
I think for extremely crit focused Stam builds: TBS always > Hunding's.

This is not correct. It would offer 25% if you had 100% crit. I think you're missing the point that if your base hits are higher, the crits are also higher and is the reason why the 25% for base damage is actually a 25% increase as it affects everything, vs 25% damage on a crit, which is not guaranteed, is not a straight 25% increase to damage.

What you should be arguing is that the whatever % crit damage you get with maxed divines gear from shadow while having 90% crit chance outdoes the static weapon damage increase of hunding. That I can't simply dismiss with napkin math =P.

Nifty2g

Xantaria wrote: »

Have people considred that as a Stamina build Khajiit TBS user you will have over 90% Crit and thus will put all your points into Precise Strikes? As more % of your damage are Crits than % of your damage is physical.
Since Precise Strikes is now working correctly it offers the same 25% increase all other CP passives offer.
I think for extremely crit focused Stam builds: TBS always > Hunding's.

@Xantaria Too bad crit hasn't been fixed yet

Xantaria

Trihugger wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

Have people considred that as a Stamina build Khajiit TBS user you will have over 90% base Crit and thus will put all your points into Precise Strikes? As more % of your damage are Crits than % of your damage is physical.
Since Precise Strikes is now working correctly it offers the same 25% increase all other CP passives offer.
I think for extremely crit focused Stam builds: TBS always > Hunding's.

This is not correct. It would offer 25% if you had 100% crit. I think you're missing the point that if your base hits are higher, the crits are also higher and is the reason why the 25% for base damage is actually a 25% increase as it affects everything, vs 25% damage on a crit, which is not guaranteed, is not a straight 25% increase to damage.

What you should be arguing is that the whatever % crit damage you get with maxed divines gear from shadow while having 90% crit chance outdoes the static weapon damage increase of hunding. That I can't simply dismiss with napkin math =P.

OFC I was going with a Crit Chance of 100% in fights When making this statement. Sorry I didn't make that clear

Xantaria

Trihugger wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

Have people considred that as a Stamina build Khajiit TBS user you will have over 90% Crit and thus will put all your points into Precise Strikes? As more % of your damage are Crits than % of your damage is physical.
Since Precise Strikes is now working correctly it offers the same 25% increase all other CP passives offer.
I think for extremely crit focused Stam builds: TBS always > Hunding's.

This is not correct. It would offer 25% if you had 100% crit. I think you're missing the point that if your base hits are higher, the crits are also higher and is the reason why the 25% for base damage is actually a 25% increase as it affects everything, vs 25% damage on a crit, which is not guaranteed, is not a straight 25% increase to damage.

What you should be arguing is that the whatever % crit damage you get with maxed divines gear from shadow while having 90% crit chance outdoes the static weapon damage increase of hunding. That I can't simply dismiss with napkin math =P.

OFC I was going with a Crit Chance of 100% in fights When making this statement.

Nifty2g wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

Have people considred that as a Stamina build Khajiit TBS user you will have over 90% Crit and thus will put all your points into Precise Strikes? As more % of your damage are Crits than % of your damage is physical.
Since Precise Strikes is now working correctly it offers the same 25% increase all other CP passives offer.
I think for extremely crit focused Stam builds: TBS always > Hunding's.

@Xantaria Too bad crit hasn't been fixed yet

that's another issue ... I'm trying to get this fixed for ages.

Takes-No-Prisoner

As someone who has access to TBS and uses the set. It's great for PvP. My toon I use it on is not DPS by any means. Hes support and it goes without saying that your healer needs to not get one shotted. To accomplish this, my guy needs a decent stamina pool and resource maintain. TBS gives the PvPer a lot of utility to explore his options n mundus buffs. With the other sets out there, one must think VERY carefully what he will spend his 700-1000 mats on for gear creation. Its extremely important folks figure out a very focused build before spending the time and mats on their v16 gear. Because it will be extremely tedious to regrind all your mats again.


Julianos is definitely better for Spell DPS/Crit in PvE imo. It's a gear set very focused on DPS, but in PvP its up for discussion as to how useful it is. TBS has more utility w/ divine buff + 2 mundus buff so the toon can switch up his fighting style comfortably without re-forging the wheel. One should consider his options wisely before investing the mats in their set.