IC dungeons too difficult in VET mode for casual players !!!!

ericprydz82ub17_ESO · October 2015

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

For what it's worth I consider myself to be a bit above casual and average and I've yet to be able to complete them. I do find them pretty hard and my team is doing everything possible to boost their damage. It feels pretty THIS or death, and I'm not a fan of one-shot mechanics.

In my opinion, CoA and CoH (before we were able to steam roll those dungeons...) felt about right as far as difficulty goes. We could at least get pass the bosses, but we've thrown our face into Ibomez way too long to even feel like we're making any progression. Right now the difficulty feels artificially inflated, but that's just me.

I like a challenge, but vWTG and vICP feel like it's designed for the DK Tank, Templar Healer, 2x Ranged casters. Anything outside of that meta feels like a handicap.

Just my opinion though.

I heal both of those dungeons on vr16/Hardmode on my Sorc and tank then on my DK which I have crappy morphs, vr15 gear and enchants that I spent all of 30 minutes putting together. Mechanics are the most important part and the thing people tend to forget every single time. vICP is brutal and a complete time sink if you fail at mechanics. vWGT is much more forgiving.

Remember guys: Save the cheerleader, save the world.

MikeB · October 2015

One more comment then I'm done with this thread. These dungeons were just released and you want to be farming it already as a casual player? As a (serious) casual player myself I find this to be ridiculous. There are steps that need to be taken before you are advanced enough to topple the highest difficulty content. You should not be allowed to walk in day 1, week 2 or even month 1 as a casual and expect to complete the dungeon with little difficulty. If this was the case what would you do for the next 1-2 months before Orsinium is released? Most would quit playing, which is bad for the game. If they plan on releasing DLC once a quarter the content will need to last 3-4 months until the next DLC and if you can farm it as a casual in the first month what would be left to do?

Sausage · October 2015

If it was to easy, then people would want challenging content. Casuals just needs to wait until people have enough CP to do them. Life sucks sometimes. Theres no happy medium.

ericprydz82ub17_ESO · October 2015

notimetocare wrote: »

I agree with this ONLY because vet pledge can be Imp city dungeons. I'd prefer a tier that gave either better chance at rewards for the hardcore players. Or easier, remove vet pledges for the new dungeons and leave them hard.

Giving 2 gold keys as the reward seems like a good step up compared to the other vet dungeons. It doesn't need more of a reward.

firstdecan · October 2015

Throwing my voice into the 'keep the difficulty' chorus. There should be portions of the game that are challenging and that not everyone can complete.

ZoS could do a better job of thinking through a progression of challenging content, but the challenging content should still be there.

Nifty2g · October 2015

Normal was made for you
Veteran is veteran mode for harder content

Definition of Veteran

a person who has had long experience in a particular field.

In other words if you're casual then this harder content mode is probably not the choice for you as it was designed to fit the players who have been around for awhile

Shunravi · October 2015

Judging by how terrible a player I am, the barrier for entry into the 'omg 2% so leet' category is rediculously low.

anitajoneb17_ESO · October 2015

MikeB wrote: »

One more comment then I'm done with this thread. These dungeons were just released and you want to be farming it already as a casual player? As a (serious) casual player myself I find this to be ridiculous. There are steps that need to be taken before you are advanced enough to topple the highest difficulty content. You should not be allowed to walk in day 1, week 2 or even month 1 as a casual and expect to complete the dungeon with little difficulty. If this was the case what would you do for the next 1-2 months before Orsinium is released? Most would quit playing, which is bad for the game. If they plan on releasing DLC once a quarter the content will need to last 3-4 months until the next DLC and if you can farm it as a casual in the first month what would be left to do?

1/ There are many other things to do in the game than endlessly wiping in the same 2 dungeons
2/ If those dungeons were a little bit more adequate in difficulty they would be fun to run and to run again and again
3/ Currently there's more people leaving for lack of something DOABLE to do than there's risk for people to run out of stuff to do
4/ 30+ hours practicing a dungeon before beating it might sound "normal" for the 2% hardcore obsessed, but it's definitely not normal for ... normal-minded people with other stuff to do in life as well.

DenMoria · October 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

Normal was made for you
Veteran is veteran mode for harder content

Definition of Veteran

a person who has had long experience in a particular field.

In other words if you're casual then this harder content mode is probably not the choice for you as it was designed to fit the players who have been around for awhile

Or for players that play obsessively (not meant negatively - just meaning they play every day, all day and dedicate themselves to it).

We casuals just have to deal with it. Sure it might take me 20 years to get to anywhere near the level that's needed to even attempt most of those high level dungeons and campaigns, but, hey, at least it's a goal. The problem is that they'll keep raising the bar so I'll never catch up.

Hey! Maybe that's the point! Keep moving the carrot a little higher and we'll keep coming back! Now that's a good business model.

Nifty2g · October 2015

DenMoria wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Normal was made for you
Veteran is veteran mode for harder content

Definition of Veteran

a person who has had long experience in a particular field.

In other words if you're casual then this harder content mode is probably not the choice for you as it was designed to fit the players who have been around for awhile

Or for players that play obsessively (not meant negatively - just meaning they play every day, all day and dedicate themselves to it).

We casuals just have to deal with it. Sure it might take me 20 years to get to anywhere near the level that's needed to even attempt most of those high level dungeons and campaigns, but, hey, at least it's a goal. The problem is that they'll keep raising the bar so I'll never catch up.

Hey! Maybe that's the point! Keep moving the carrot a little higher and we'll keep coming back! Now that's a good business model.

Point of an MMO is to keep both parties happy which is why they made Veteran and Normal. Asking one part of the party to match the other doesn't work.
Sorry but that's just not fair if you ask me

Shadesofkin · October 2015

I just don't agree. While the enemies are certainly a little higher than normal, this isn't the end of the world. What's more the mechanics just take time, they take time and practice. Scale it down to Veteran 1 until you've got it down, you can do it...you just have to learn it. Do the normal dungeon until your eyes bleed, get it down hardcore. Make a lot of practice runs with your guild mates, get to the point where you know your fellow players so well you know what they're slotting on their bar.

I think it stinks that you feel you haven't gotten any returns on IC, but that feels like your fault not the expansions (far better word for something that increases the level cap). Go out there and explore the Imperial City with a 12 man group, you'll have better chances at survival and stones. I honestly think you'll have fun if you give it a chance.

Good luck to you mate.

anitajoneb17_ESO · October 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

Point of an MMO is to keep both parties happy which is why they made Veteran and Normal. Asking one part of the party to match the other doesn't work.
Sorry but that's just not fair if you ask me

Agree. Still look at how incredibly easy normal mode is, and how difficult the vet version is ? There's something missing in between for the "normal-good-though-not-excellent-player".

SO either ZOS adds another difficulty level to choose from and leave the current vet level labeled "hardcore", or they nerf the current vet level to something more reachable by the top 30% players (and not only the top 2%).

Nifty2g · October 2015

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Point of an MMO is to keep both parties happy which is why they made Veteran and Normal. Asking one part of the party to match the other doesn't work.
Sorry but that's just not fair if you ask me

Agree. Still look at how incredibly easy normal mode is, and how difficult the vet version is ? There's something missing in between for the "normal-good-though-not-excellent-player".

SO either ZOS adds another difficulty level to choose from and leave the current vet level labeled "hardcore", or they nerf the current vet level to something more reachable by the top 30% players (and not only the top 2%).

I suggested a Nightmare Mode for the top 2% of players but probably wont come in for awhile honestly if at all.

Spearshard · October 2015

The biggest problem, as far as I can see is the champion point system affecting the difficulty level. At this point ZOS is stuck in an impossible position as the champion point system has put content in a bit of a loop. Players want something to work for, feel accomplished in the game, we get the champion system. Supposedly you are given very small gains, only a slight tip in a given direction. However, it's more than just a power creep, ppl have unlocked quite a bit more power. So, as content gets easier, demand harder content to compensate for the power creep and lack of a challenge; thus we get ICP and WGT. Very difficult content. As a result you need more champion points to be viable, even if you are v16 and have good gear, you still won't have the armor or punch to burn enemies fast enough. And as more content comes out and ppl gain more points in new areas, gain a bit more power (at this point diminishing returns helps but not completely) power gap is bigger, even with a catchup, it's still a bamdaid. The point is that the power curve gets away from most players who can't keep up with the shifting target and are increasingly excluded from content necessary to keep the hardcore high cp players happy. Which would be fine, except that th e gear necessary for any improvement is gated in that content. Don't get me wrong, I fully believe in earning your rewards. I spent all summer leveling and tweaking my stam templar and testing gear. I even think the concept of the champion system is great. But the implementation of it has stated the game on a loop that, despite the bandaid of a catsup mechanic will probably get away from the developers. Right now, they are alienating almost every player, casuals with only a few who are unable to do the content, and hard core gamers that the catchup mechanic hinders.

LordSemaj · October 2015

Such a concession already happens in MMOs, actually.

PVE content (the solo stuff) is intentionally able to be facerolled with nothing but stats to keep casuals happy. The veterans will complain that the content is too easy but there's only one difficulty level for all of the content, and if there was a Hard mode would anyone even play it if you still get the same XP on an easier difficulty?

Until someone comes up with an MMO that adjusts itself dynamically according to your skill level, most content will always be easy to cater to the casual players who would be unable to do it otherwise. The dungeons carry over this by showing players the easy way to practice on bosses and then the veteran dungeons are the real trial, how the difficulty was meant to be were it not for catering.

As for dungeon difficulty, even the top 2% often struggle with a vet dungeon AT FIRST. It's simply a matter of understanding what's causing you to fail and adjusting tactics until success is obtained. Even the top 30% can complete a veteran dungeon if they only had a tutor come along willing to direct everyone and explain their jobs for them. But that's because they aren't putting in the effort to learn the fight themselves.

I know it can be done because I routinely pull random casuals into dungeon groups in this game and others, teaching them the secrets to success and becoming the charismatic leader they sorely need. Occasionally I run into the stubborn ones who don't wish to be told how to play, but once we've failed enough I simply replace them and the more amicable subjects willing to listen and follow orders are surprised by how feasible the fight actually is.

usmcjdking · October 2015

Grevier wrote: »

prabhu.abhimanyurwb17_ESO wrote: »

Wow, i somehow saw all this bitching coming forth.
1) I am able to complete other vet dungeons, why should these new dungeons be on another difficulty spectrum ???

Thats the only point where i agree with you. There shouldn't be so much difference between the vet-dungeons.

Somebody, i forgot who (shame on me), posted this idea: you could chose the difficulty of vet-dungeons like "Hard, Harder, Masochistic" wich affects droprates. I would actually like that.

City of Heroes did this.

Spearshard · October 2015

I completely agree, I regularly complete vet dungeons every day, non vet and vet. I've done every vet pledge to date, except ICP and WGT in vet mode. No matter who I've grouped with as a pug it never happens, as casuals we just don't have the puch. Now don't misread anything I've said, I don't think the dungeon needs a nerf. I have a fair understanding of the mechanics of the game and my character, and often help ppl in my group (once had a guy stacking weapon crit on a magica build). I'm just saying the what is most likely the issue is that there is a gap developing between players putting them into hard core and casual (I mean more pronounced than usual). And that the CP system as it is is providing a shifting target for achievable goals for players with less time, and newcomers.

LordSemaj · October 2015

usmcjdking wrote: »

Grevier wrote: »

prabhu.abhimanyurwb17_ESO wrote: »

Wow, i somehow saw all this bitching coming forth.
1) I am able to complete other vet dungeons, why should these new dungeons be on another difficulty spectrum ???

Thats the only point where i agree with you. There shouldn't be so much difference between the vet-dungeons.

Somebody, i forgot who (shame on me), posted this idea: you could chose the difficulty of vet-dungeons like "Hard, Harder, Masochistic" wich affects droprates. I would actually like that.

City of Heroes did this.

Except that game also scaled content to your level, scaled mob difficulty and quantity according to your group size, and allowed you to sidekick low level players up to your level. It was on a whole different level of equal play for all.

abhimat1999rwb17_ESO · October 2015

Pretty usual for people to start threads like this when they can't beat something. Do remember that what you want is to make the new vet dungeons another EH/WS, which even most casual players can complete without any challenge presented to them.

DenMoria · October 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Normal was made for you
Veteran is veteran mode for harder content

Definition of Veteran

a person who has had long experience in a particular field.

In other words if you're casual then this harder content mode is probably not the choice for you as it was designed to fit the players who have been around for awhile

Or for players that play obsessively (not meant negatively - just meaning they play every day, all day and dedicate themselves to it).

We casuals just have to deal with it. Sure it might take me 20 years to get to anywhere near the level that's needed to even attempt most of those high level dungeons and campaigns, but, hey, at least it's a goal. The problem is that they'll keep raising the bar so I'll never catch up.

Hey! Maybe that's the point! Keep moving the carrot a little higher and we'll keep coming back! Now that's a good business model.

Point of an MMO is to keep both parties happy which is why they made Veteran and Normal. Asking one part of the party to match the other doesn't work.
Sorry but that's just not fair if you ask me

What isn't fair? I used to think that it wasn't fair that I couldn't be as powerful as some of the more hardcore players and that they had an unfair advantage, but, I've gotten over that. Most of the truly high level (v10-v16) players have been at it a long time and put a lot of work in to it. Sure, I probably will never catch up with them in my lifetime, but, then again, I am extremely casual.

Most of the game is far to hard for me (but then again, I'm a pretty bad player), but that doesn't really change my enjoyment. I've come to the conclusion that there are just better players (and often they have some great tips!) and that I should just play to enjoy. When it gets to the point where I'm so frustrated that I want to throw my controller out the window, I take a break.

I'm not an MMO fan, myself, being a misanthrope and anti-social with my gaming, but, ESO, in my opinion, has done a pretty good job at this. Sure there are issues, but, it is a huge game and keeping everybody happy must be something else.

hydrocynus · October 2015

I wonder if you went onto the UEFA forums, would you see people complaining that their sunday soccer side couldn't beat Barcelona and how unfair it is?

wafcatb14_ESO · October 2015

Yup next thing they`ll start giving everyone a trophy in sports even those that come in last place and did n`t win anything just so they feel special too HA HA

Instead of dumbing down endgame content so everyone can be special, just work on getting better.

PBpsy · October 2015

wafcatb14_ESO wrote: »

Yup next thing they`ll start giving everyone a trophy in sports even those that come in last place and did n`t win anything just so they feel special too HA HA

Instead of dumbing down endgame content so everyone can be special, just work on getting better.

But if they did give a trophy for a race, getting the last spot would possibly be more challenging than winning,

Xjcon · October 2015

Are the IC dungeons hard? Yes! Did the people who can complete them work at them untill they figured out how to complete them? Of course they did. There are groups who spent lots of time trying to figure out how to complete each encounter and then they even post videos of how they do it. I've ran in to so many players who won't do a bit of research before they enter harder content.

anitajoneb17_ESO · October 2015

Xjcon wrote: »

Are the IC dungeons hard? Yes! Did the people who can complete them work at them untill they figured out how to complete them? Of course they did.

Yes. They did. BUT...
The fact is, two days (or was it 1 ?) after the launch of IC on PTS, there was a video of a progression guild (Hodor ? deu3ex ?) who had beaten the two vet dungeons. They did it with template characters, template gear and the couple CPS they give you on PTS (400 iirc). They mentioned having spent the whole night to make it (that's something between 6 and 10 hours).

Now most people I know have spent 30+ hours in each dungeon (in guilded, teamspeaked groups with good players paying attention) with no result.

What I want to say is : Usain Bolt has worked A LOT for running 100m in under 10 seconds. But if we all trained as hard as he did, 99.5% of us would still not run 100m under 10s.

Don't get me wrong : I do respect extremely good players and I approve that they have content appropriate for their level. But I want content adequate for the category below them, which are not bad and not casual, just not as good as them. And never will be. That's a HUGE part of the playerbase that is currently left out with no new dungeon content, normal being too easy and vet version too hard.

I tried running the dungeon downscaled. For the people I usually run with, more or less my level of play, the "perfect" challenge is at level VR8-10 for vWGT and VR1-5 for vICP. That's what I think an appropriate challenge would be. I wouldn't mind running them over and over downscaled because that's fun, but the looted stuff is not VR16.

While I agree that the new sets should be obtained and not given, I don't think that it is acceptable that it is gated behind insane difficulty - or, better said, a difficulty that excludes 98% of the players from obtaining it.

Artis · October 2015

McCracken79 wrote: »

I love the challenge of the IC vet dungeons and I have completed WGT on vet after a lot of practice. With that said I really do think the 2nd boss in ICP ( The Flesh Sculptor) is just ridiculous. We were only able to complete ICP on vet when the rearming trap was bugged, only used it on him. We were able to get though the rest and even beat Lord Warden normally on vet many hours and repair kits later...

It's beatable using the mechanics. That's how I beat it quite a few times. Sure, I know that some people want to ignore everything and just burn boss/aoe adds... Personally, I think it's not fun and not smart to do now as only a handful of groups are able to deal as much dps as needed for this "strat".
Keep practicing with bombs and your group/guild will be fine.

Winterpsy wrote: »

There's a huge gap currently on consoles between normal ICP and vet ICP.

Same with PC. Vet modes are hard. But it's not the reason to nerf them. They can be completed and some groups already did it. You probably didn't see it, but long time ago no one could beat vet dsa in a while, when now to make it to the leaderboards you need to make an almost perfect run.
Give it some time, it's been 4 weeks only. Also, if I may give you an advice... On Ibomez make sure to keep the flesh grenade debuff on the adds and you should be fine.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

IC vet dungeons are TOO HARD, I say it out and loud (even if I completed them myself. I'm not selfish enough to measure everything by my own standards). Please nerf... OR provide an intermediate level of difficulty that drops the VR16 sets and trophies. I don't mind some content being "elite-exclusive" but I do mind it if the only way to get required stuff is gated behind that much (TOO much) difficulty.

Then please run normal modes scaled to v16. Not only vet dungeons DO NOT have any new content compared to the normal ones (the story and everything is the same), but also it's not like 1VR difference in armor is significant. And not everyone is supposed to have all the gear, you can get same sets of vr15, you don't deserve to have vr16 gear if you can't complete those dungeons (like others). And it's normal. That gives motivation for others to work on vet icp and wgt.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

What is so wrong with hard content?

Nothing. But there's is something wrong with TOO hard content.

.

But it's not too hard. It's too hard for your group because it's not good enough yet. Pick up your dps/hps and communication skills. Other groups complete these dungeons. For those who can't - there are normal modes that have the same bosses and the storyline.
Look at it in a different way. These dungeons are an indicator of how your group can be better. And when you complete them, you will know that your skill/gear/tactics is on qualitatively new level.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Difficult is one thing, NOT DOABLE by good, organized, efficient teams who took the time to practice is a clear sign that it is TOO difficult. (Again, I cleared those dungeons... so it's not about me only... I'm just not that self-centered as to not see when something is just too much for 95% of the players).

Please note that I'm not asking for the removal of this difficulty level altogether, I'm asking for an alternative (normal mode ain't one : too easy and no drops).

Look. I see where the root of misunderstanding is. Let me fix it for you. It's not doable by teams that THINK THAT THEY ARE good, efficient, organized. I completed it. Not with a static group at the moment, just some good players and we all used TS.
So, surprise-surprise, it is doable by good, organized, efficient groups. If a group can't beat it, then in fact it is NOT good, organized, efficient. As simple as that.

Dear whiners,

You have 16+8+2+2=28 easy dungeons. Good players finally got 2 difficult dungeons. It's the first small group difficult content since vet dsa, so in about a year! Don't ruin it for us. Please.

Would you be ok if zos just removed veteran modes? (and send us secret invites, so that only the ones who want challenging content can actually see the dungeons in game. Because once they add something, everyone and their mom want to complete it and you nerf it.) Where does this entitlement come from? It's not even like normal and vet COA which have different stories and bosses. Vet and normal ICP and WGT are completely the same, it's just that vet version are a little more challenging. Don't ruin it please. What's your problem? Do normals. I can't understand you. Can anyone please have a dialogue with me till the point when I understand?

DenMoria · October 2015

Artemis wrote: »

McCracken79 wrote: »

I love the challenge of the IC vet dungeons and I have completed WGT on vet after a lot of practice. With that said I really do think the 2nd boss in ICP ( The Flesh Sculptor) is just ridiculous. We were only able to complete ICP on vet when the rearming trap was bugged, only used it on him. We were able to get though the rest and even beat Lord Warden normally on vet many hours and repair kits later...

It's beatable using the mechanics. That's how I beat it quite a few times. Sure, I know that some people want to ignore everything and just burn boss/aoe adds... Personally, I think it's not fun and not smart to do now as only a handful of groups are able to deal as much dps as needed for this "strat".
Keep practicing with bombs and your group/guild will be fine.

Winterpsy wrote: »

There's a huge gap currently on consoles between normal ICP and vet ICP.

Same with PC. Vet modes are hard. But it's not the reason to nerf them. They can be completed and some groups already did it. You probably didn't see it, but long time ago no one could beat vet dsa in a while, when now to make it to the leaderboards you need to make an almost perfect run.
Give it some time, it's been 4 weeks only. Also, if I may give you an advice... On Ibomez make sure to keep the flesh grenade debuff on the adds and you should be fine.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

IC vet dungeons are TOO HARD, I say it out and loud (even if I completed them myself. I'm not selfish enough to measure everything by my own standards). Please nerf... OR provide an intermediate level of difficulty that drops the VR16 sets and trophies. I don't mind some content being "elite-exclusive" but I do mind it if the only way to get required stuff is gated behind that much (TOO much) difficulty.

Then please run normal modes scaled to v16. Not only vet dungeons DO NOT have any new content compared to the normal ones (the story and everything is the same), but also it's not like 1VR difference in armor is significant. And not everyone is supposed to have all the gear, you can get same sets of vr15, you don't deserve to have vr16 gear if you can't complete those dungeons (like others). And it's normal. That gives motivation for others to work on vet icp and wgt.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

What is so wrong with hard content?

Nothing. But there's is something wrong with TOO hard content.

.

But it's not too hard. It's too hard for your group because it's not good enough yet. Pick up your dps/hps and communication skills. Other groups complete these dungeons. For those who can't - there are normal modes that have the same bosses and the storyline.
Look at it in a different way. These dungeons are an indicator of how your group can be better. And when you complete them, you will know that your skill/gear/tactics is on qualitatively new level.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Difficult is one thing, NOT DOABLE by good, organized, efficient teams who took the time to practice is a clear sign that it is TOO difficult. (Again, I cleared those dungeons... so it's not about me only... I'm just not that self-centered as to not see when something is just too much for 95% of the players).

Please note that I'm not asking for the removal of this difficulty level altogether, I'm asking for an alternative (normal mode ain't one : too easy and no drops).

Look. I see where the root of misunderstanding is. Let me fix it for you. It's not doable by teams that THINK THAT THEY ARE good, efficient, organized. I completed it. Not with a static group at the moment, just some good players and we all used TS.
So, surprise-surprise, it is doable by good, organized, efficient groups. If a group can't beat it, then in fact it is NOT good, organized, efficient. As simple as that.

Dear whiners,

You have 16+8+2+2=28 easy dungeons. Good players finally got 2 difficult dungeons. It's the first small group difficult content since vet dsa, so in about a year! Don't ruin it for us. Please.

Would you be ok if zos just removed veteran modes? (and send us secret invites, so that only the ones who want challenging content can actually see the dungeons in game. Because once they add something, everyone and their mom want to complete it and you nerf it.) Where does this entitlement come from? It's not even like normal and vet COA which have different stories and bosses. Vet and normal ICP and WGT are completely the same, it's just that vet version are a little more challenging. Don't ruin it please. What's your problem? Do normals. I can't understand you. Can anyone please have a dialogue with me till the point when I understand?

Good post! and... "Secret Emails"... Cool! I like secrets... oh, and lies. I like Secrets & Lies.

anitajoneb17_ESO · October 2015

Artemis wrote: »

Where does this entitlement come from? It's not even like normal and vet COA which have different stories and bosses. Vet and normal ICP and WGT are completely the same, it's just that vet version are a little more challenging. Don't ruin it please. What's your problem? Do normals. I can't understand you. Can anyone please have a dialogue with me till the point when I understand?

"entitlement"... fashion word of the year. Forget it.

If you had read the entire thread and my posts, and understood them (yes might take a bit of effort, understanding others...)... you wouldn't tell me to "do normal".
BECAUSE NORMAL IS TOO EASY.

There's a gap of difficulty between normal and vet versions of these two dungeons that's too big and that gap should be filled.
I'm not saying "remove top 2% elite difficulty level", I say "add something in between for us".

I insist that groups that I know of who cannot complete vWGT and vICP are good, organized, coordinated and teamspeaked.

And you said "there's not much of a difference between VR15 and VR16 gear" ? Of course there is. Don't tell lies. Look at the stats. Try them.

NB : We're not whiners. We're normal people expressing an opinion.

NB2 : "don't ruin it for us, please". Well, your tone doesn't make one want to please you, and secondly, YOU are ruining it for us by wanting your "elite-level" preserved. I don't even want to take it from you. And we are JUST AS content starved as YOU ARE.

anitajoneb17_ESO · October 2015

Artemis wrote: »

Would you be ok if zos just removed veteran modes? (and send us secret invites, so that only the ones who want challenging content can actually see the dungeons in game. Because once they add something, everyone and their mom want to complete it and you nerf it.)

Thinking of it, actually, YES.
I'd love it if ZOS could take all of you top 2% elitists to a separate server and live your own life there, instead of forcing things, skills and content all the time because you're always pushing the game's mechanics to their edge.
So please, everyone with 20k+ DPS or10K scoring VDSA, please just all go to separate elite server and let us play.

Asherons_Call · October 2015

The whole meaning of the term "vet level dungeons" means that this is for hardcore players. Normal mode is for casual players like you and I. No need to go in there.. You'll just drag the party down if you're not prepared