Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Without progression, what is the point in playing?

Just PvP and have fun? I mean, there were no such progression system in 1.5, and still I had plenty of fun and was rarely bored of the game.

THIS. Exactly this. Cries of "Mah Progressunz" from PvP'ers is just as bad as "Mah Immerzunz" from PvE'ers. Both are terrible for the game.

Why do some people insist on having a meaninless vertical progression system of fake internet points just so they can feel better than other players who have less time to grind? Stop parroting that BS that people will quit the game if they dont have something to work for. What about highly enjoyable, replayable content that we had in 1.5?

PvP in this game is most enjoyable when there is a huge build diversity, tons of different gear sets, hybrid builds etc. 1.5 was a theorycrafters paradise. Now its just stack damage and spam highest hitting skill. All of that diversity and theorycrafting was thrown out for meaningless and boring stat increases.

CP doesn't do anything cool for your character. Doesn't give your character access to new skills, interesting abilities, or gear. It just makes you hit 25% harder than someone without CPs.

We played with this on the PTS before the champ system was released and at 3600 CP, cyrodill became no fun so quickly. It was just a bunch of people spamming wrecking blow. OH WAIT, that's exactly what happened. Imagine that.

Bring back softcaps, scrap CP.

Sorry but what you say about 1.5 is just not true. If anything 1.6 was much better for theory crafting. The true purpose of soft cap is to prevent bad builds from falling too far behind good builds. It prevents players from trying to be the best at something. It was the paradise of mediocrity. If anything 1.5 shoe horned pvp builds much more than 1.6. How many builds used seducer warlock in 1.5? How many tank builds used hist bark? In 1.6 there is the constant trade of sustain vs damage. There where an insane amount of combinations for stam builds, and plenty for magic builds. You talk about simply stacking a damage stat as high as possible, but this is silly. I would love to see a cyrodiil like this because most the people that play this game can not handle the resource management of a true 100% dps spec with no sustain elements.

Lol. All you have to do is run regen drinks and you suddenly have enough sustain to maintain any high damage build in 1.6. You could stack your damage to the ceiling then. Even without drinks, with enough CPs, you have 25% cost reduction and 25% regen on top of whatever your racial passives give you. Anyone who couldn't sustain a high damage min/maxed build in 1.6 wasn't even trying. People could roll all over the floor like a dog with an itchy butt and still have enough weapon damage to two shot people. You should know, that's pretty much all you did.

Your definition of "good builds" vs "bad builds" is completely arbitrary and meaningless. If more builds are viable, then there is more build diversity and that is good for the game. If what is "better for theorycrafting" is that only a few builds are superior and everything else doesn't work (as was the case in 1.6), then eventually everyone figures out those singular builds and copies them and you have FOTM.

There may have been tons of different gear combinations for magicka and stamina but they all lead to the same place. People ignored most 5pc bonuses and just stacked Resource/Regen/Damage. Whether you use cyrodiil's light, martial knowlege, morag tong, or hawks eye to do this, the result is the same. It's the same damn build.

In your first post you specifically talked about builds only stacking one stat. You seem to have no idea what a build that truly stack as much damage as humanly possible plays like. Here is a hint you do not use drink, and simply putting on drink does not give you infinite resource like so many people seem to think on these forums.

manny254 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Without progression, what is the point in playing?

Just PvP and have fun? I mean, there were no such progression system in 1.5, and still I had plenty of fun and was rarely bored of the game.

THIS. Exactly this. Cries of "Mah Progressunz" from PvP'ers is just as bad as "Mah Immerzunz" from PvE'ers. Both are terrible for the game.

Why do some people insist on having a meaninless vertical progression system of fake internet points just so they can feel better than other players who have less time to grind? Stop parroting that BS that people will quit the game if they dont have something to work for. What about highly enjoyable, replayable content that we had in 1.5?

PvP in this game is most enjoyable when there is a huge build diversity, tons of different gear sets, hybrid builds etc. 1.5 was a theorycrafters paradise. Now its just stack damage and spam highest hitting skill. All of that diversity and theorycrafting was thrown out for meaningless and boring stat increases.

CP doesn't do anything cool for your character. Doesn't give your character access to new skills, interesting abilities, or gear. It just makes you hit 25% harder than someone without CPs.

We played with this on the PTS before the champ system was released and at 3600 CP, cyrodill became no fun so quickly. It was just a bunch of people spamming wrecking blow. OH WAIT, that's exactly what happened. Imagine that.

Bring back softcaps, scrap CP.

Sorry but what you say about 1.5 is just not true. If anything 1.6 was much better for theory crafting. The true purpose of soft cap is to prevent bad builds from falling too far behind good builds. It prevents players from trying to be the best at something. It was the paradise of mediocrity. If anything 1.5 shoe horned pvp builds much more than 1.6. How many builds used seducer warlock in 1.5? How many tank builds used hist bark? In 1.6 there is the constant trade of sustain vs damage. There where an insane amount of combinations for stam builds, and plenty for magic builds. You talk about simply stacking a damage stat as high as possible, but this is silly. I would love to see a cyrodiil like this because most the people that play this game can not handle the resource management of a true 100% dps spec with no sustain elements.

The only thing that I see that would limit build diversity of 1.5 compared to 1.6 were underperforming stamina builds, and even that was only partly true. Also hybrid builds were viable, with 1.6 not at all.
Following your reasoning, hybrid builds are generally bad and should be, and it's a good thing that we have so much resources now that it is actually viable in to only stack damage and no sustain. How the *** is that supposed to be diverse or interesting?
Btw, Seducer + Warlock was suboptimal since the introduction of undaunted sets with 1.5.

With soft caps players are all held to be relatively the same. It is by definition a limitation on diversity. You are actively discouraging players from deviating to far from the stats they say we can have. This prevented bad builds from falling too far behind the curve.

If you actually read what I wrote you would see that I was saying that it is not viable to simply only stack damage. Smart player builds trade damage, sustain, and raw durability.

It is not viable to simply stack damage, but people seem to not understand what truly stacking damage means. A pure 100% damage build would contain all damage glyphs, food, no regen set bonuses, and sets that are not 100% practical (Such as Ravager or Molag Kena). How many of these builds do you see running around?

True, I never was a fan of softcaps, but because there are better solutions, like a simple diminishing return function.
Stacking damage doesn't mean you use some procs, and there are players who stack loads of weapon damage, stamina and use food, same for magicka. They can do well, those builds are certainly limited in the situations they are going to perform well in, but depending on playstyle, they damage can in most situations make up for that. And that is going to become more often the case every day if ZOS doesn't decides to gives us 30% cost increase on battle spirit or some other surprise next update.

ToRelax wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Without progression, what is the point in playing?

Just PvP and have fun? I mean, there were no such progression system in 1.5, and still I had plenty of fun and was rarely bored of the game.

THIS. Exactly this. Cries of "Mah Progressunz" from PvP'ers is just as bad as "Mah Immerzunz" from PvE'ers. Both are terrible for the game.

Why do some people insist on having a meaninless vertical progression system of fake internet points just so they can feel better than other players who have less time to grind? Stop parroting that BS that people will quit the game if they dont have something to work for. What about highly enjoyable, replayable content that we had in 1.5?

PvP in this game is most enjoyable when there is a huge build diversity, tons of different gear sets, hybrid builds etc. 1.5 was a theorycrafters paradise. Now its just stack damage and spam highest hitting skill. All of that diversity and theorycrafting was thrown out for meaningless and boring stat increases.

CP doesn't do anything cool for your character. Doesn't give your character access to new skills, interesting abilities, or gear. It just makes you hit 25% harder than someone without CPs.

We played with this on the PTS before the champ system was released and at 3600 CP, cyrodill became no fun so quickly. It was just a bunch of people spamming wrecking blow. OH WAIT, that's exactly what happened. Imagine that.

Bring back softcaps, scrap CP.

Sorry but what you say about 1.5 is just not true. If anything 1.6 was much better for theory crafting. The true purpose of soft cap is to prevent bad builds from falling too far behind good builds. It prevents players from trying to be the best at something. It was the paradise of mediocrity. If anything 1.5 shoe horned pvp builds much more than 1.6. How many builds used seducer warlock in 1.5? How many tank builds used hist bark? In 1.6 there is the constant trade of sustain vs damage. There where an insane amount of combinations for stam builds, and plenty for magic builds. You talk about simply stacking a damage stat as high as possible, but this is silly. I would love to see a cyrodiil like this because most the people that play this game can not handle the resource management of a true 100% dps spec with no sustain elements.

The only thing that I see that would limit build diversity of 1.5 compared to 1.6 were underperforming stamina builds, and even that was only partly true. Also hybrid builds were viable, with 1.6 not at all.
Following your reasoning, hybrid builds are generally bad and should be, and it's a good thing that we have so much resources now that it is actually viable in to only stack damage and no sustain. How the *** is that supposed to be diverse or interesting?
Btw, Seducer + Warlock was suboptimal since the introduction of undaunted sets with 1.5.

With soft caps players are all held to be relatively the same. It is by definition a limitation on diversity. You are actively discouraging players from deviating to far from the stats they say we can have. This prevented bad builds from falling too far behind the curve.

If you actually read what I wrote you would see that I was saying that it is not viable to simply only stack damage. Smart player builds trade damage, sustain, and raw durability.

It is not viable to simply stack damage, but people seem to not understand what truly stacking damage means. A pure 100% damage build would contain all damage glyphs, food, no regen set bonuses, and sets that are not 100% practical (Such as Ravager or Molag Kena). How many of these builds do you see running around?

True, I never was a fan of softcaps, but because there are better solutions, like a simple diminishing return function.
Stacking damage doesn't mean you use some procs, and there are players who stack loads of weapon damage, stamina and use food, same for magicka. They can do well, those builds are certainly limited in the situations they are going to perform well in, but depending on playstyle, they damage can in most situations make up for that. And that is going to become more often the case every day if ZOS doesn't decides to gives us 30% cost increase on battle spirit or some other surprise next update.

The point I am trying to make is that people talk about stacking damage as if you don't sacrifice anything when you do it. Even choosing drink is making a sacrifice. You loose damage on your damage stat, and raw durability. Assuming that you have access to all the gear. If you are using any combination of gear that is less then what ever creates the highest possible damage number on a skill tool tip you are sacrificing damage for sustain, utility, or survivability. A large amount of players talk about this subject as if damage builds don't have to sacrifice anything to get high damage. More so the complaints of infinite resource irritate me to no end. In order to achieve that high sustain that player had to make a sacrifice in their build as I talked about previously.

manny254 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Without progression, what is the point in playing?

Just PvP and have fun? I mean, there were no such progression system in 1.5, and still I had plenty of fun and was rarely bored of the game.

THIS. Exactly this. Cries of "Mah Progressunz" from PvP'ers is just as bad as "Mah Immerzunz" from PvE'ers. Both are terrible for the game.

Why do some people insist on having a meaninless vertical progression system of fake internet points just so they can feel better than other players who have less time to grind? Stop parroting that BS that people will quit the game if they dont have something to work for. What about highly enjoyable, replayable content that we had in 1.5?

PvP in this game is most enjoyable when there is a huge build diversity, tons of different gear sets, hybrid builds etc. 1.5 was a theorycrafters paradise. Now its just stack damage and spam highest hitting skill. All of that diversity and theorycrafting was thrown out for meaningless and boring stat increases.

CP doesn't do anything cool for your character. Doesn't give your character access to new skills, interesting abilities, or gear. It just makes you hit 25% harder than someone without CPs.

We played with this on the PTS before the champ system was released and at 3600 CP, cyrodill became no fun so quickly. It was just a bunch of people spamming wrecking blow. OH WAIT, that's exactly what happened. Imagine that.

Bring back softcaps, scrap CP.

Sorry but what you say about 1.5 is just not true. If anything 1.6 was much better for theory crafting. The true purpose of soft cap is to prevent bad builds from falling too far behind good builds. It prevents players from trying to be the best at something. It was the paradise of mediocrity. If anything 1.5 shoe horned pvp builds much more than 1.6. How many builds used seducer warlock in 1.5? How many tank builds used hist bark? In 1.6 there is the constant trade of sustain vs damage. There where an insane amount of combinations for stam builds, and plenty for magic builds. You talk about simply stacking a damage stat as high as possible, but this is silly. I would love to see a cyrodiil like this because most the people that play this game can not handle the resource management of a true 100% dps spec with no sustain elements.

The only thing that I see that would limit build diversity of 1.5 compared to 1.6 were underperforming stamina builds, and even that was only partly true. Also hybrid builds were viable, with 1.6 not at all.
Following your reasoning, hybrid builds are generally bad and should be, and it's a good thing that we have so much resources now that it is actually viable in to only stack damage and no sustain. How the *** is that supposed to be diverse or interesting?
Btw, Seducer + Warlock was suboptimal since the introduction of undaunted sets with 1.5.

With soft caps players are all held to be relatively the same. It is by definition a limitation on diversity. You are actively discouraging players from deviating to far from the stats they say we can have. This prevented bad builds from falling too far behind the curve.

If you actually read what I wrote you would see that I was saying that it is not viable to simply only stack damage. Smart player builds trade damage, sustain, and raw durability.

It is not viable to simply stack damage, but people seem to not understand what truly stacking damage means. A pure 100% damage build would contain all damage glyphs, food, no regen set bonuses, and sets that are not 100% practical (Such as Ravager or Molag Kena). How many of these builds do you see running around?

True, I never was a fan of softcaps, but because there are better solutions, like a simple diminishing return function.
Stacking damage doesn't mean you use some procs, and there are players who stack loads of weapon damage, stamina and use food, same for magicka. They can do well, those builds are certainly limited in the situations they are going to perform well in, but depending on playstyle, they damage can in most situations make up for that. And that is going to become more often the case every day if ZOS doesn't decides to gives us 30% cost increase on battle spirit or some other surprise next update.

The point I am trying to make is that people talk about stacking damage as if you don't sacrifice anything when you do it. Even choosing drink is making a sacrifice. You loose damage on your damage stat, and raw durability. Assuming that you have access to all the gear. If you are using any combination of gear that is less then what ever creates the highest possible damage number on a skill tool tip you are sacrificing damage for sustain, utility, or survivability. A large amount of players talk about this subject as if damage builds don't have to sacrifice anything to get high damage. More so the complaints of infinite resource irritate me to no end. In order to achieve that high sustain that player had to make a sacrifice in their build as I talked about previously.

Yeah, sure there's a huge sacrifice to stacking everything into damage or sustain or whatever.
But that's not too different from 1.5. Some builds stacked spell damage until softcap, but you couldn't go much higher anyway. Magicka regen or weapon damage were often stacked way over the soft cap, both at once in my case even. The only thing that was really standard was softcapping either magicka or stamina, and that would have been different with continuous diminshing returns like I suggested. Even then, there were exceptions, gankers who would stack more stamina or shieldstacking Sorcs who would stack magicka. What we saw in 1.6 was not so new at all actually, just suddenly the vastly superior option.

CP should have been gained from PvP kills only. That or the tree should have been duplicated in PvP and Out. When you are in a PvP zone, only your PvP CP tree is active, when out your PvE CP tree is active. I wouldn't mind someone having 2000 CP if I knew it all came from player killss

I have over 700 cp and I really hope for a catch up mechanic and let just say they implemented a cap now i would want it at around 400-500 give or take. I could careless about the progression, grinding massives amount of cp should not determine who's character is stronger. It should be about having a proper set up and also skill. I don't get why people with high cp whine and say "oh since I grind mobs for hours I should win". How is playing such an imbalanced game fun? How is beating people only because of your cp fun? I would like to think good skillful player would support a catch up mechanic and also a cap that somewhat low. But no people just like running their broken builds and having such a major advantage because God knows their skill isn't enough.

It's obvious CP was implemented to keep ESO PVEers playing between expansions. It is a building without a ceiling. The more PVE/time you play, the stronger your character becomes and without limits.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler CP literally breaks PVP. Please have it turned off while in PVP zones. It is the easiest fix I can think of to balance the system without removing it or changing how it already works.

So, I just read these two pages. Mojican was doing pretty good, but his argument was rekt by that screen shot and now he is just floundering for a point and trying to discredit it. Close thread.....

As much as people want CP to be the reason they lost a fight, in my own experiences, it's almost never the case. I feel like you have to be behind A LOT in CP for someone to be physically impossible to trump with skill alone. I have 264 CP and I still wreck shop in PvP (I'm not saying im the best, take it however you want though). I do agree though that there are some people with way too many champ points, and yeah, it does make it unfair when you fight them, but you guys are making it seem like having 700+ champ points makes you God, l2p.

And before you start talking about people who are running 1500+ champ points, the number of people who have that many is so small it's not even worth taking into account.

To quote Meth from the post showing him solo Molag Bal,

i spent a lot of hours grinding and u know what i say? o well. what will ppl whine about when they're still getting rektd?

bugs. he's macroing. i dont have l337 items. skills are broke. theyre running in a zerg. im so laggy 153,234 ping. guy is a hacker. something in my eye. hands cramping up. dog chewed the power cord. internet connection must not be working. my group sucks. i wasnt really trying. i cant roll dodge. why arnt my weapons swaping. does this game even have CC break. i wasnt focused. youre zerging with 6 ppl. 12v12 me bro. NB cloak QQ. shield breaker QQ. i dont have my cyro buffs. my food wore off. my drink ran out. we got nightcapped. we got daycapped. brunch capped. mid-afternoon capped. my class nerfed to the ground. fall damage. i alt tabbed. spilled my coffee on my keyboard. i only theory craft dude, i dont actually play.

I, personally, have never ran into a situation where I've come out thinking "that person had more CPs than me." I do feel, like Meth, that most people on these forums, and in-game, will conveniently move to the next excuse if anything is done about the perceived CP imbalance.

If you have someone at 10% health, when they have ran out of resources, pot is idle, and an Arcane Well pops up and gives them that tiny bit of needed magicka. Maybe then, I'll look to the sky and shout Curse you CPs!

Otherwise I can't really tell.

frozywozy wrote: »

Shelgon wrote: »

As much as people want CP to be the reason they lost a fight, in my own experiences, it's almost never the case. I feel like you have to be behind A LOT in CP for someone to be physically impossible to trump with skill alone. I have 264 CP and I still wreck shop in PvP (I'm not saying im the best, take it however you want though). I do agree though that there are some people with way too many champ points, and yeah, it does make it unfair when you fight them, but you guys are making it seem like having 700+ champ points makes you God, l2p.

And before you start talking about people who are running 1500+ champ points, the number of people who have that many is so small it's not even worth taking into account.

@Araxleon is not talking about the average kind of players you find into Cyrodiil. He was reffering to the top skilled bracket he faces when he duels on a daily basis. Those players with great experience and knowledges of the game know what they're doing and at that point, if you don't have the same amount of champoint points or closeby, you don't stand any chance unless they run out of food/drink or their cat walks over their keyboard midfight.

This.

I would propose a couple things regarding this subject.

I am one of those that left the game for awhile because ZoS couldn't figure out the lag issue or refused to fix it. I've been grinding IC for stones and mats to get upgraded Vr16 gear since this DLC launched. Even WITH the PvE involved killing the NPC's mindlessly for hours on end, I have gotten maybe 50 CP's over the last month. I'm betting even less. That put me at a total of less than 200.

Less than 200 means I'm not solo'ing anyone right now. I would have to jump around on alts (which I can't stand) in order to make more with the enlightened system. The whole CP system and it's un-enlightened way of gaining them is by far one of the worse implemented systems for advancement I have encountered in all my MMO exp.

I don't think a cap is what needs to be done. Basically there is one already. It's 3600. What I think they should do is revamp the points for either PvE or PvP. 1800 each if ya want. But have different systems to gain each of those point playstyles. I recall what ZoS wanted to do with this system, and I do think they tried. They did. But they couldn't forsee people that have extreme amounts of playtime at their disposal. People willing to do and try anything to gain an edge. This goes for top raiding guilds and PvP'ers alike.

This new system would make you decide which playstyle you wanted to do. You could still do both, you just might not be as good at one over the other because the point gains you've made dictate your power level in each scenario. People will always find a way to grind out huge amounts of points no matter what system it is.

Part of the problem with this current system is that it goes for everything all the time. PvE or PvP. Just like the skills and abilities. I've been saying it forever. They need to separate. If this game is going to survive, they need to separate the playstyles more and give each their own advancement system.