Nerfing the new vet dungeons already?

asneakybanana · September 2015

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Dis guy lol. I have seen 1.25m/hr. While grinding a toon you use an xp pot, group with a friend, and run Mara rings and it's pretty easy. I can do 1m/hr solo while levelling. It's really not tough. And yes in EU there are players with well over 1500 cp. They grind 10-15 cp a day most days. And like any human they take days off or get a couple less a day. I have friends in na that have had over 1k cp for months now. There were people that had 250+ before they nerfed skyreach which lasted for 5 days. Also we all know that zos lied about those statistics for the amount of cp players had.

Excuse me but... I don't believe a word of all this :-)

Also please explain (and prove) this "we all know" because obviously, I don't.

There was a guy streaming on twitch pro ably 3 weeks b4 ic came out that had over 1300 cp. He showed us all his cp and where he grinder. I'll see if I can find the guy but his name is princess Yuki from eu.

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2015

...and that proves that ZOS has been lying about the amount of CP that people have ? I fail to understand.... just because some guy somewhere presumably has pushed the game (and probably his own health) to the very far limits doesn't mean that it's something regular, accessible (and wanted by) everyone. And by the way, did ZOS say anything about the amount of CP that people have ?

Thanks for the not very detailed details anyhow.

asneakybanana · September 2015

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

...and that proves that ZOS has been lying about the amount of CP that people have ? I fail to understand.... just because some guy somewhere presumably has pushed the game (and probably his own health) to the very far limits doesn't mean that it's something regular, accessible (and wanted by) everyone. And by the way, did ZOS say anything about the amount of CP that people have ?

Thanks for the not very detailed details anyhow.

LOL you were just talking about how zos must have lied about how many cp people had if they could find 1m+ an hour. They addressed champion points in one of the eso live episodes and said that I think 70 or something players in the world had over 600 cp with the highest being around 1k. That was a total lie because because many players could count more than 20 players from their faction alone.

Masuimi · September 2015

asneakybanana wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

...and that proves that ZOS has been lying about the amount of CP that people have ? I fail to understand.... just because some guy somewhere presumably has pushed the game (and probably his own health) to the very far limits doesn't mean that it's something regular, accessible (and wanted by) everyone. And by the way, did ZOS say anything about the amount of CP that people have ?

Thanks for the not very detailed details anyhow.

LOL you were just talking about how zos must have lied about how many cp people had if they could find 1m+ an hour. They addressed champion points in one of the eso live episodes and said that I think 70 or something players in the world had over 600 cp with the highest being around 1k. That was a total lie because because many players could count more than 20 players from their faction alone.

Way to derail the thread all u guys talking about CP grinding

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2015

asneakybanana wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

...and that proves that ZOS has been lying about the amount of CP that people have ? I fail to understand.... just because some guy somewhere presumably has pushed the game (and probably his own health) to the very far limits doesn't mean that it's something regular, accessible (and wanted by) everyone. And by the way, did ZOS say anything about the amount of CP that people have ?

Thanks for the not very detailed details anyhow.

LOL you were just talking about how zos must have lied about how many cp people had if they could find 1m+ an hour. They addressed champion points in one of the eso live episodes and said that I think 70 or something players in the world had over 600 cp with the highest being around 1k. That was a total lie because because many players could count more than 20 players from their faction alone.

Don't underestimate the ability of players to lie, too... :-)
That said, even if it is true, those crazy 24/7 players are just such a minority that they don't have to (and should not) be taken into account in the global balancing of the game, imho. Just like all roads don't have to comply with F1 requirements.

Nifty2g · September 2015

asneakybanana wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

...and that proves that ZOS has been lying about the amount of CP that people have ? I fail to understand.... just because some guy somewhere presumably has pushed the game (and probably his own health) to the very far limits doesn't mean that it's something regular, accessible (and wanted by) everyone. And by the way, did ZOS say anything about the amount of CP that people have ?

Thanks for the not very detailed details anyhow.

LOL you were just talking about how zos must have lied about how many cp people had if they could find 1m+ an hour. They addressed champion points in one of the eso live episodes and said that I think 70 or something players in the world had over 600 cp with the highest being around 1k. That was a total lie because because many players could count more than 20 players from their faction alone.

I think it was true at the time, so many people were close to 600, very close but now I think there's at least 200 people with 600 cp

Gilliamtherogue · September 2015

asneakybanana wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

...and that proves that ZOS has been lying about the amount of CP that people have ? I fail to understand.... just because some guy somewhere presumably has pushed the game (and probably his own health) to the very far limits doesn't mean that it's something regular, accessible (and wanted by) everyone. And by the way, did ZOS say anything about the amount of CP that people have ?

Thanks for the not very detailed details anyhow.

LOL you were just talking about how zos must have lied about how many cp people had if they could find 1m+ an hour. They addressed champion points in one of the eso live episodes and said that I think 70 or something players in the world had over 600 cp with the highest being around 1k. That was a total lie because because many players could count more than 20 players from their faction alone.

They said 35 players over 600. Highest at the time was 1600's at the time. Rich himself said it in the interview, which was almost a month ago now.

Psilent · September 2015

Extremely disappointed to read into today's patch notes that the new Imperial City dungeons were nerfed. It was refreshing on the first day to walk into a vet dungeon and get beat so bad that I felt I needed to go gear up a bit to complete it. I was looking forward to these being difficult as trials were not updated this patch cycle.

Dagoth_Rac · September 2015

Ya know, there is a pretty big middle ground between "lolwut faceroll easy in green vendor trash gear while standing in the red" and "soul crushingly brutal". Maybe the top 20% of players will be able to get gold key now instead of top 10%. So what? Geez, everything is so black and white with you guys.

byrom101b16_ESO · September 2015

Gaming hours played per week by sampled general MMO population expressed as a percentage;

0-10 hours/week (The average result achievable with 1 hour a day, ~5 days a week) - 26.2%
10-20 hours/week (The average result achievable with 3 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 32.6%
20-30 hours/week (The average result achievable with 5 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 21.2%
30-40 hours/week (The average result achievable with 7 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 11.0%
40-50 hours/week (The average result achievable with 9 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 4.2%
50-60 hours/week (The average result achievable with 11 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 2.1%
60+ hours/week (The result achievable with 12+ hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 1.6%

Anyone playing over 30 hours a week is likely to have at best a part time job, or perhaps a full time job and no face to face social life to speak of except maybe at weekends if they can tear themselves away from the game.

40+ hours a week is a FULL TIME JOB. If MMOs are your full time job, then I hope you're getting paid for it...

The average free time per day for a full time worker reported in a recent study in the UK (so in the ballpark of other developed nations who don't live in a heavy sweatshop economy) is 2.75 hours PER DAY.

This puts a working person with a life, responsibilities, family or whatever else you throw into the mix at 10-20 hours a week playtime maximum - and that's pushing it if married or in a relationship with a non-gamer.

In addition, the average age of a gamer is currently 26, which considering that free in the vast majority of cases time decreases for people as they get older means that the people with the most time on their time are generally significantly younger than 26. Which of course explains more free time and relative lack of full time job, family, responsibility etc.

Please don't bother to post stating loudly that YOU are the exception to the numbers - it's irrelevant to the argument, and to the decisions ZOS make.

For those of you playing more than 3 hours a day and complaining you aren't getting 'what the game needs', know for a fact that you are both in a numerical minority (41.2%) and your income, unless you are fortunate to enjoy personal circumstances that are unusual, is less than the majority players who are 'casuals'.

Casuals, and those players who are close to it (the 25 hours a week posse) outnumber you four to one, and like in PvP, the ZERG ALWAYS WINS.

The 'Casual Zerg' in this case is the majority of Zenimax's paying playerbase, and money talks far louder than forum rants by 24/7 players and elitists who claim skill trumps time-played in a game which heavily rewards (through CP et al) time input over skill level, and thus makes skill less necessary for success.

Humans learn at a similar rate to each other generally - if you have hard mechanics or high time-served advancement gates, the high hours/day players do better by default. Skill is thus as much about time playing as raw ability, and crowing about how many hours you can play per week is therefore a big part of what you are actually doing when you boast.

That the casuals don't like your attitude is therefore very, very predictable...

... and there are more of them...

Who do you really expect ZOS to listen to?... and how much of a difference do you think forum ranting is going to make to the situation?

That's right... NONE.

BuggeX · September 2015

we where today at the 3th boss on vet tower, finally we managed without a dungeon kickout/reset bug.....

well well she rly kick ass

Kyoma · September 2015

Flameheart wrote: »

kuscoe wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Oh, they wanne nerf it ?

Cool, at last there won't be a single healer class in this game anymore (which is by accident the only stamina supporting class too).

Time to craft my NB healer some VR16 Mara.

Nah, still need breath of life

Ok, then the game is still fubar, because I can't find that skill in my resto skill tree.

Healing Ward good for any non-templar healer... I hate it when people say Templars are the only healers I bet a DK could heal some of this new content much easier then a templar and still do as much if not more dps

It's good but not enough for Whitegold Tower and Prison and maybe even some "older" V16 instances on "gold" standard. Silver and normal is still cake.

I'm healing vICP and vWGT vet with my sorc just fine, even on no-death runs

Shader_Shibes · September 2015

Nerfed or not, i'm not bothered, will still do them either way.

Glad i done them before the nerf, just like pre nerfed vet levels, when they were tough.

mra4nii · September 2015

From Patch Note is not clear, did nerf hit all monsters, including bosses? Or just trash packs?

Ludof · September 2015

Alcast wrote: »

The new vet dungeons difficulty is fine, why would you nerf it? It is supposed to be difficult, like ZOS said at the beginning.

Normal mode is for "not very experienced" players.
Vet Mode is for experienced players.

There are plenty of other Vet Dungeons like CoA CoH, Wayrest etc where it already is a walk through the garden

Totally agree.
New dungeons are fine , you need to be an experienced player and have good gear to go through it.
Please don't nerf them.

tino.antoninieb17_ESO · September 2015

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Gaming hours played per week by sampled general MMO population expressed as a percentage;

0-10 hours/week (The average result achievable with 1 hour a day, ~5 days a week) - 26.2%
10-20 hours/week (The average result achievable with 3 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 32.6%
20-30 hours/week (The average result achievable with 5 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 21.2%
30-40 hours/week (The average result achievable with 7 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 11.0%
40-50 hours/week (The average result achievable with 9 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 4.2%
50-60 hours/week (The average result achievable with 11 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 2.1%
60+ hours/week (The result achievable with 12+ hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 1.6%

Anyone playing over 30 hours a week is likely to have at best a part time job, or perhaps a full time job and no face to face social life to speak of except maybe at weekends if they can tear themselves away from the game.

40+ hours a week is a FULL TIME JOB. If MMOs are your full time job, then I hope you're getting paid for it...

The average free time per day for a full time worker reported in a recent study in the UK (so in the ballpark of other developed nations who don't live in a heavy sweatshop economy) is 2.75 hours PER DAY.

This puts a working person with a life, responsibilities, family or whatever else you throw into the mix at 10-20 hours a week playtime maximum - and that's pushing it if married or in a relationship with a non-gamer.

In addition, the average age of a gamer is currently 26, which considering that free in the vast majority of cases time decreases for people as they get older means that the people with the most time on their time are generally significantly younger than 26. Which of course explains more free time and relative lack of full time job, family, responsibility etc.

Please don't bother to post stating loudly that YOU are the exception to the numbers - it's irrelevant to the argument, and to the decisions ZOS make.

For those of you playing more than 3 hours a day and complaining you aren't getting 'what the game needs', know for a fact that you are both in a numerical minority (41.2%) and your income, unless you are fortunate to enjoy personal circumstances that are unusual, is less than the majority players who are 'casuals'.

Casuals, and those players who are close to it (the 25 hours a week posse) outnumber you four to one, and like in PvP, the ZERG ALWAYS WINS.

The 'Casual Zerg' in this case is the majority of Zenimax's paying playerbase, and money talks far louder than forum rants by 24/7 players and elitists who claim skill trumps time-played in a game which heavily rewards (through CP et al) time input over skill level, and thus makes skill less necessary for success.

Humans learn at a similar rate to each other generally - if you have hard mechanics or high time-served advancement gates, the high hours/day players do better by default. Skill is thus as much about time playing as raw ability, and crowing about how many hours you can play per week is therefore a big part of what you are actually doing when you boast.

That the casuals don't like your attitude is therefore very, very predictable...

... and there are more of them...

Who do you really expect ZOS to listen to?... and how much of a difference do you think forum ranting is going to make to the situation?

That's right... NONE.

Hope that u understand this what u did is not comprehensive analysis . This is just throwing up with numbers and taking conclusions which are .. not accurate. This discussion is about what direction eso should take from players perspective.
If u have game which is hard core and marketed that way than certainly u couldn't show your numbers as proof of anything coz life span of casual player in that game would be like 5 days. On the other hand fully casual game wouldn't be attractive at all to hard core players. Its just matter of content and general perception what that game is and again that perception would greatly influence your numbers. Depth and variety of content would give proper content to both sides. Even in that ideal MMO version casuals wouldnt be able to walk in golden looted armor but instead they would have very strange mushroom directly from Lost river. Unfortunately casuals are never great heroes but in their minds. Fact is that u dont need 3 hours a day to be hero to yourself.
Great thing about your numbers is that they are almost correct coz ESO still havent made proper positioning of this game.

Kronosphere · September 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

Honestly, these nerfs will inevitably be the end of this game, these dungeons are a walk in the park right now, I can walk many players through them for completes and even farm, I've been helping a bunch of people out.
The people complaining honestly need to stop and look and figure out how the mechanics work, what they can do to beat them, because dumbing dungeons down so players can beat them is not the way to go it's a shame the difficulty is right where they should be, I enjoy raiding with my group(s) and having fun in chat with them for a few hours every day, they lose their fun when they become too easy which is what is going to happen I can imagine.

My question is why is this happening, why are you going to dumb the hardest content down right now so anyone can beat it, I believe that promotes an extremely bad playstyle, because the players are forced to adapt to the new mechanics and actually do them for once they get rolled for 3 hours in a dungeon and deem it impossible to do because they refuse to learn the game. See, I for one find that highly unfair theres normal mode for a reason and there is hardmode for the hardcore raiding players who love a challenge, why should we be the ones to suffer? And yes the gear should be VR16 for only the Veteran because we actually put the work in, farm it and do it until we know how to, we don't sit there asking for nerfs over and over because we refuse to learn mechanics and change our playstyle up.

I hope you revert this change @ZOS_RichLambert and/or do not let this go through, or at the very least to make keys drop from normal too and only work on normal vaults. The players who are here for a challenge is with this content, those no death challenges are very damn hard, especially Prison, I love it. When we strip all the difficulty away from these dungeons, what are we going to do while we wait for Orsinium? There's going to be absolutely nothing to do.

well i think its a bit contradictory to what they wanted tanking to be. its like. we want the tank to just taunt a few big guys and the other trash is for the others to deal with, we will also nerf stam while blocking to re-iterate that. then they make a dungeon where random non large npc throw daggers that 1hit people, so to effectively tank you need to taunt everything and try semi perma block. doesnt really make sense

Personofsecrets · September 2015

Kronosphere wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Honestly, these nerfs will inevitably be the end of this game, these dungeons are a walk in the park right now, I can walk many players through them for completes and even farm, I've been helping a bunch of people out.
The people complaining honestly need to stop and look and figure out how the mechanics work, what they can do to beat them, because dumbing dungeons down so players can beat them is not the way to go it's a shame the difficulty is right where they should be, I enjoy raiding with my group(s) and having fun in chat with them for a few hours every day, they lose their fun when they become too easy which is what is going to happen I can imagine.

My question is why is this happening, why are you going to dumb the hardest content down right now so anyone can beat it, I believe that promotes an extremely bad playstyle, because the players are forced to adapt to the new mechanics and actually do them for once they get rolled for 3 hours in a dungeon and deem it impossible to do because they refuse to learn the game. See, I for one find that highly unfair theres normal mode for a reason and there is hardmode for the hardcore raiding players who love a challenge, why should we be the ones to suffer? And yes the gear should be VR16 for only the Veteran because we actually put the work in, farm it and do it until we know how to, we don't sit there asking for nerfs over and over because we refuse to learn mechanics and change our playstyle up.

I hope you revert this change @ZOS_RichLambert and/or do not let this go through, or at the very least to make keys drop from normal too and only work on normal vaults. The players who are here for a challenge is with this content, those no death challenges are very damn hard, especially Prison, I love it. When we strip all the difficulty away from these dungeons, what are we going to do while we wait for Orsinium? There's going to be absolutely nothing to do.

well i think its a bit contradictory to what they wanted tanking to be. its like. we want the tank to just big out a few big guys and the other trash is for the others to deal with, we will also nerf stam while blocking to re-iterate that. then they make a dungeon where random non large npc throw daggers that 1hit people, so to effectively tank you need to taunt everything and try semi perma block. doesnt really make sense

I agree @Kronosphere . As much as some mechanics may be challenging, they are kind of dumb mechanics. I have a similar ongoing gripe with the Planar Inhibitor. The developers claim to want tanking to be fun and interactive, but went on to make multiple fights where the tanks job is either lame or unnecessary.

FluffyMeowington · September 2015

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Casuals, and those players who are close to it (the 25 hours a week posse) outnumber you four to one, and like in PvP, the ZERG ALWAYS WINS.

I can't help but feel that halfway through your lengthy post you lost track of the issue at hand, unless you are actually suggesting that the hardest content in the game should be catered to the majority audience, which is not what any successful game does. Games that do well feature content for the majority and harder modes for those who want to distinguish and/or challenge themselves further. A skill-ceiling that is not reachable by 75% of the playerbase with little to to effort is a good thing.

Look at WoW, they introduced casual raids for the majority. They still cater to, and take lots of feedback from, the mythic raiders. It's almost as if numbers didn't serve to tell the whole story.

This thread is about vet dungeons. Vet dungeons should be hard, or they should introduce Hardcore Vet Dungeons that actually are.

Flameheart · September 2015

Kyoma wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

kuscoe wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Oh, they wanne nerf it ?

Cool, at last there won't be a single healer class in this game anymore (which is by accident the only stamina supporting class too).

Time to craft my NB healer some VR16 Mara.

Nah, still need breath of life

Ok, then the game is still fubar, because I can't find that skill in my resto skill tree.

Healing Ward good for any non-templar healer... I hate it when people say Templars are the only healers I bet a DK could heal some of this new content much easier then a templar and still do as much if not more dps

It's good but not enough for Whitegold Tower and Prison and maybe even some "older" V16 instances on "gold" standard. Silver and normal is still cake.

I'm healing vICP and vWGT vet with my sorc just fine, even on no-death runs

Of course you do. You know that you need a group of four not just you standing in the entrance hall, spamming circles?

Frenkthevile · September 2015

the problem it's not the dungeon's mob damage, is the fact that you need 1h+ to find a group to join and you cannot use LFG because it's broken.

MLRPZ · September 2015

Zos will never listen to a thread like this, they care too much about the casual QQers (No offense here, i'm a casual too, I just like challenges) They rather see "good" players left the game than casuals, because it's not the same amount of population.

Dungeons are nerfed (and I'm sad about it too, especially since I didn't get time to complete it before the patch because of the F**kin maintenance), end of story

Fecius · September 2015

Please DO NOT NERF veteran WGT and ICP dungeons any more! Thank you!

There is a story mode for all who wants some easy rides into it.

Dymence · September 2015

Flameheart wrote: »

Kyoma wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

kuscoe wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Oh, they wanne nerf it ?

Cool, at last there won't be a single healer class in this game anymore (which is by accident the only stamina supporting class too).

Time to craft my NB healer some VR16 Mara.

Nah, still need breath of life

Ok, then the game is still fubar, because I can't find that skill in my resto skill tree.

Healing Ward good for any non-templar healer... I hate it when people say Templars are the only healers I bet a DK could heal some of this new content much easier then a templar and still do as much if not more dps

It's good but not enough for Whitegold Tower and Prison and maybe even some "older" V16 instances on "gold" standard. Silver and normal is still cake.

I'm healing vICP and vWGT vet with my sorc just fine, even on no-death runs

Of course you do. You know that you need a group of four not just you standing in the entrance hall, spamming circles?

Not sure why you find it so unbelievable, and remember, just because you don't believe it doesn't make it any less true. At this point I've run this dungeon at least over 40 times, and it's really easy to get through it now with a static group. I can also complete these dungeons in every role with my sorc, dps tank and heal. It's not hard with practice. Nothing is.

schroed360 · September 2015

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

It's an average of 2.25 cp a day which is a pretty average amount and can be done with about 3 hours a day of playing regularly

2,25 CP a day with 3 hours/day is nearly 1cp/hour : that's not average, that's grinding rhythm. Many players do non-XP activities during their playtime (raids, farm, trade, socializing), and 3 hours a day, every single day, is FAR ABOVE average.

That's what hardcore players don't get : you are a minority. Many, many players play completely differently, enjoy slow, immersive, non-xp- oriented play. The question whether dungeons levels should be adapted to their level or not is a different issue. All I'm saying is : your level of CP is not average, your level of play is not average. That's all.

It's 200k cp an hour. No grinding required for that.

2.25x400000=900000 CP, divided by 3 = 300K CP/hour. Get your math together please.

Actually is right. 2.25champ day mean 1pt with enlightment and 1.25 " hard point" so 100k + 400k +400/4 =600 k...just saying

Flameheart · September 2015

Dymence wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Kyoma wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

kuscoe wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Oh, they wanne nerf it ?

Cool, at last there won't be a single healer class in this game anymore (which is by accident the only stamina supporting class too).

Time to craft my NB healer some VR16 Mara.

Nah, still need breath of life

Ok, then the game is still fubar, because I can't find that skill in my resto skill tree.

Healing Ward good for any non-templar healer... I hate it when people say Templars are the only healers I bet a DK could heal some of this new content much easier then a templar and still do as much if not more dps

It's good but not enough for Whitegold Tower and Prison and maybe even some "older" V16 instances on "gold" standard. Silver and normal is still cake.

I'm healing vICP and vWGT vet with my sorc just fine, even on no-death runs

Of course you do. You know that you need a group of four not just you standing in the entrance hall, spamming circles?

Not sure why you find it so unbelievable, and remember, just because you don't believe it doesn't make it any less true. At this point I've run this dungeon at least over 40 times, and it's really easy to get through it now with a static group. I can also complete these dungeons in every role with my sorc, dps tank and heal. It's not hard with practice. Nothing is.

You should run it without a healer then, because it seems your "static group" won't take any damage at all. So my advice would be -> rebuild for dps.

Dymence · September 2015

Flameheart wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Kyoma wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

kuscoe wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Oh, they wanne nerf it ?

Cool, at last there won't be a single healer class in this game anymore (which is by accident the only stamina supporting class too).

Time to craft my NB healer some VR16 Mara.

Nah, still need breath of life

Ok, then the game is still fubar, because I can't find that skill in my resto skill tree.

Healing Ward good for any non-templar healer... I hate it when people say Templars are the only healers I bet a DK could heal some of this new content much easier then a templar and still do as much if not more dps

It's good but not enough for Whitegold Tower and Prison and maybe even some "older" V16 instances on "gold" standard. Silver and normal is still cake.

I'm healing vICP and vWGT vet with my sorc just fine, even on no-death runs

Of course you do. You know that you need a group of four not just you standing in the entrance hall, spamming circles?

Not sure why you find it so unbelievable, and remember, just because you don't believe it doesn't make it any less true. At this point I've run this dungeon at least over 40 times, and it's really easy to get through it now with a static group. I can also complete these dungeons in every role with my sorc, dps tank and heal. It's not hard with practice. Nothing is.

You should run it without a healer then, because it seems your "static group" won't take any damage at all. So my advice would be -> rebuild for dps.

I am built for damage.

Why do you assume the group doesn't take any damage? Because you assume sorcerers would be unable to heal? That's pretty ignorant, but ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

schroed360 · September 2015

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Gaming hours played per week by sampled general MMO population expressed as a percentage;

0-10 hours/week (The average result achievable with 1 hour a day, ~5 days a week) - 26.2%
10-20 hours/week (The average result achievable with 3 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 32.6%
20-30 hours/week (The average result achievable with 5 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 21.2%
30-40 hours/week (The average result achievable with 7 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 11.0%
40-50 hours/week (The average result achievable with 9 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 4.2%
50-60 hours/week (The average result achievable with 11 hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 2.1%
60+ hours/week (The result achievable with 12+ hours a day, ~5 days a week) - 1.6%

Anyone playing over 30 hours a week is likely to have at best a part time job, or perhaps a full time job and no face to face social life to speak of except maybe at weekends if they can tear themselves away from the game.

40+ hours a week is a FULL TIME JOB. If MMOs are your full time job, then I hope you're getting paid for it...

The average free time per day for a full time worker reported in a recent study in the UK (so in the ballpark of other developed nations who don't live in a heavy sweatshop economy) is 2.75 hours PER DAY.

This puts a working person with a life, responsibilities, family or whatever else you throw into the mix at 10-20 hours a week playtime maximum - and that's pushing it if married or in a relationship with a non-gamer.

In addition, the average age of a gamer is currently 26, which considering that free in the vast majority of cases time decreases for people as they get older means that the people with the most time on their time are generally significantly younger than 26. Which of course explains more free time and relative lack of full time job, family, responsibility etc.

Please don't bother to post stating loudly that YOU are the exception to the numbers - it's irrelevant to the argument, and to the decisions ZOS make.

For those of you playing more than 3 hours a day and complaining you aren't getting 'what the game needs', know for a fact that you are both in a numerical minority (41.2%) and your income, unless you are fortunate to enjoy personal circumstances that are unusual, is less than the majority players who are 'casuals'.

Casuals, and those players who are close to it (the 25 hours a week posse) outnumber you four to one, and like in PvP, the ZERG ALWAYS WINS.

The 'Casual Zerg' in this case is the majority of Zenimax's paying playerbase, and money talks far louder than forum rants by 24/7 players and elitists who claim skill trumps time-played in a game which heavily rewards (through CP et al) time input over skill level, and thus makes skill less necessary for success.

Humans learn at a similar rate to each other generally - if you have hard mechanics or high time-served advancement gates, the high hours/day players do better by default. Skill is thus as much about time playing as raw ability, and crowing about how many hours you can play per week is therefore a big part of what you are actually doing when you boast.

That the casuals don't like your attitude is therefore very, very predictable...

... and there are more of them...

Who do you really expect ZOS to listen to?... and how much of a difference do you think forum ranting is going to make to the situation?

That's right... NONE.

You get an awesome!! Really good post with a kind use of a study. I m around the 3hours mark per day. (On average since the reIease of the game (so that include intensive gaming vacation) . I laught so hard when you say that with a non gamer wife(husband) you are already "pushing it"because...I know that this is true!

byrom101b16_ESO · September 2015

FluffyMeowington wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Casuals, and those players who are close to it (the 25 hours a week posse) outnumber you four to one, and like in PvP, the ZERG ALWAYS WINS.

I can't help but feel that halfway through your lengthy post you lost track of the issue at hand, unless you are actually suggesting that the hardest content in the game should be catered to the majority audience, which is not what any successful game does. Games that do well feature content for the majority and harder modes for those who want to distinguish and/or challenge themselves further. A skill-ceiling that is not reachable by 75% of the playerbase with little to to effort is a good thing.

Look at WoW, they introduced casual raids for the majority. They still cater to, and take lots of feedback from, the mythic raiders. It's almost as if numbers didn't serve to tell the whole story.

This thread is about vet dungeons. Vet dungeons should be hard, or they should introduce Hardcore Vet Dungeons that actually are.

No I stayed on the issue I wanted to tackle - that of the endless complaining that things get nerfed.

Personally I like hard content and am looking forwards to running the two IC dungeons on hard mode now I'm back from holiday... but the kind of hardcore player I used to be before I got a normal life now sees how myopic and self-serving the minority 24/7 players are in their constant and repetitive complaints about the same few things - going round and round like goldfish in a bowl.

It makes no difference to how MMO companies and ZOS will do things. They frequently overtune first, look at the numbers and then correct for acceptable completion rates for their player demographic - and it's all designed to keep enough players PAYING to keep the real masters of the world, the bean-counters, happy.

The endless hardcore complainers need to realise this and come to expect it in larger games - not get petty about it and blame the casuals.

ZOS makes these decisions, and if anyone thinks that this kind of move is prompted by or even significantly influenced by forum posts, they are deluding themselves.

Spottswoode · September 2015

My suggestion would be to make a nerfed pledge version. This new content is really difficult for people who haven't done it before and a lot of people quit halfway through. If the group finder was working, this wouldn't be much of an issue, but it's an extreme drag to deal with when you work in PUGs.