The Bads Have Finally Won

Mythk · September 2015

Everyone needs to be honest with themselves at this point in time, because problems keep arising since people are not honest with themselves.
No one liked the instagibbing of 1.6, but was it really that bad in comparison to not being able to kill anyone at all?

1.7 has made passive defense much more powerful than active defense - a completely unreasonable change in a game where skill is supposedly a huge factor in determining the victor of a fight. It means that 2 players can fight each other, and the less skilled player can make every mistake in the world and not die in a timely manner. I understand that they want to reduce 1vX, but I for one get very frustrated when I can visibly tell I am outplaying my opponent and they are still hanging on because they pop one heal in a minute which allows them to survive due to the damage reduction.

1.7 has taken skill out of the equation completely for any sort of PvP, solo is nearly impossible now, and it is just becoming a group number crunching game.

The reason the damage in 1.6 was needed is because there needed to be a way to kill players that strayed from their zerg. There needed to be some incentive for solo players to be able to keep playing. 1.6 may not have been the way to go after 1.5, but 1.7 took that wrong step and amplified what we didn't want to happen.
Personally, I would just push for a 1.5 revert, though obviously that would never happen at this point, but we need to reevaluate things as a community. I know everyone hates 1vX, but that is essentially what keeps PvP alive. I saw a Sypher video long ago when I first got this game, and I thought to myself "Wow, I want to attain mastery of PvP like him!" and I worked my butt off until I got to that point.

I disagree that people say 1vX videos are a disincentive for new players. If anything, it should bolster someone to want to be that person in the video, the one doing the killing. And at this point we really do need to be completely honest with ourselves. Half of the people on this game complain about 1vX completely, yet when something is done about it, they realize the mistake.

Everyone does 1vX. Just because you don't video it doesn't mean that group of 3 you just killed wasn't the X. 1vX is essential for a skill based game to survive, especially since numbers just grow more and more powerful. As long as damage is nerfed, solo and small scale PvP will cease to exist, given enough time. Fighting as a solo player is comparable to banging your head against a wall if you know what is going on. When you can be throwing everything you've got on a player that isn't actively defending themselves or healing, yet you still can't kill them, that is when things are just ridiculous.

This update caters to any of the bad players out there that didn't bother to learn game mechanics, or investigate other classes to see what sort of abilities they use so as to counter them. It caters to all the players unable to realize that you need to use active defense to survive, rather than just standing there and eating damage like a bad. It kills any sort of skill aspect that goes into surviving or killing other players in the game, and it promotes the numbers game even more than it did before.

1.6 may have had too much damage, but I think most of us can agree 1.7 made things even worse.

TL;DR - 1.7 caters to bad players. 1vX is crucual to a skill based game, whether you like it or not. Zerging is killing the game. QQ Damage nerf. Revert to 1.5.

FENGRUSH · September 2015

Yea I have no problem with nerfing damage to offset instagibbing. But heals are that much more effective now. People were BoLing from 10% to full in 1.6. Theyre still outhealing my damage, but now I cant burst them.

Healing should have a layer of survival to it beyond just standing there and hammering BoL with the proper equip/passives to be stronger than 5k+ weap damage. If healing was cut back in a big way I'd be a lot happier with how things are. I don't miss being 1 shot by 22k snipes because I dont slot radiant for some *** build that has 0 value in real pvp. But Id take that if it means I can actually kill bad players who dont know what theyre doing but are being hammered with heals.

DisgracefulMind · September 2015

I just don't know why they went absolutely crazy with the damage nerf instead of perhaps testing smaller increase increments. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Xsorus · September 2015

PvP right now feels like stack the hell out of armor/spell resist..spam Wrecking Blow

Forget Dodging and Blocking..that just means less Wrecking Blow Spam.

DisgracefulMind · September 2015

Xsorus wrote: »

PvP right now feels like stack the hell out of armor/spell resist..spam Wrecking Blow

Forget Dodging and Blocking..that just means less Wrecking Blow Spam.

Yep. In fact, most of my deaths have only been because there's been 2+ players spamming wrecking blow on me, not even bothering to block my damage, or get out of range of anything I'm doing lol.

Maulkin · September 2015

Xsorus wrote: »

PvP right now feels like stack the hell out of armor/spell resist..spam Wrecking Blow

Forget Dodging and Blocking..that just means less Wrecking Blow Spam.

We don't often agree, but in this instance I couldn't agree more.

Winnamine · September 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Yea I have no problem with nerfing damage to offset instagibbing. But heals are that much more effective now. People were BoLing from 10% to full in 1.6. Theyre still outhealing my damage, but now I cant burst them.

Healing should have a layer of survival to it beyond just standing there and hammering BoL with the proper equip/passives to be stronger than 5k+ weap damage. If healing was cut back in a big way I'd be a lot happier with how things are. I don't miss being 1 shot by 22k snipes because I dont slot radiant for some *** build that has 0 value in real pvp. But Id take that if it means I can actually kill bad players who dont know what theyre doing but are being hammered with heals.

Heals got nerfed in a big way too.

FENGRUSH · September 2015

Winnamine wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Yea I have no problem with nerfing damage to offset instagibbing. But heals are that much more effective now. People were BoLing from 10% to full in 1.6. Theyre still outhealing my damage, but now I cant burst them.

Healing should have a layer of survival to it beyond just standing there and hammering BoL with the proper equip/passives to be stronger than 5k+ weap damage. If healing was cut back in a big way I'd be a lot happier with how things are. I don't miss being 1 shot by 22k snipes because I dont slot radiant for some *** build that has 0 value in real pvp. But Id take that if it means I can actually kill bad players who dont know what theyre doing but are being hammered with heals.

Heals got nerfed in a big way too.

Yes but they were always outdoing damage. Kills were closed after a disable. Now that you cant close a kill during a disable, heal spamming is a joke for someone to punch through. It just becomes a matter of resource management, and if numbers are against you - you lose.

timidobserver · September 2015

I definitely see a lot of people that based their entire 1vX around hammering "bads" with broken mechanics and explots(100% armor pen, stealth multiplier stacking,camo hunter,dawnbreaker instant dot tick,stacking 5 pieces set bonuses with deaths,ect)having a problem now. The 1vXers that didn't do that seem to be doing okay.

saiyan_84 · September 2015

this game turned into biggest group will win and thats just pathetic.

xaraan · September 2015

Yeah, they screwed it up quite a bit. The zerg is more important than ever now. This game isn't about skill, just numbers.

BossTuggles · September 2015

I even being a healer think BoL spam is dumb. I dont need to target anything with smart heals I just need to keep up self buffs and spam 3. Just think of the better healers you know and have played with niw ask those people how easy it is to do the job.

Sypher · September 2015

Screw 1vX, I'm not even going to try to defend that.

I don't care how hard it is to "1vX" but with the current damage reduction, 1v1 against players who are clearly not reacting properly or defending themselves in a timely matter is just a huge drag. Of course this has an effect on 1vX, but I'd rather be able to kill 1 person in a 1v1 at least in a timely manner, Especially if they are clearly not on par.

This patch, is rewarding players who have slow reaction time, aren't actively engaged in defending themselves, and with all these buffs the larger the group the better their odds. (as if they fact that having more players wasn't enough of an advantage).

20% Was too low of a reduction, 50% is obviously too high.

one

two

skip a few...

35% dmg/healing reduction.

Ezareth · September 2015

Xsorus wrote: »

PvP right now feels like stack the hell out of armor/spell resist..spam Wrecking Blow

Forget Dodging and Blocking..that just means less Wrecking Blow Spam.

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

PvP right now feels like stack the hell out of armor/spell resist..spam Wrecking Blow

Forget Dodging and Blocking..that just means less Wrecking Blow Spam.

Yep. In fact, most of my deaths have only been because there's been 2+ players spamming wrecking blow on me, not even bothering to block my damage, or get out of range of anything I'm doing lol.

Yup. That's all I do now. Buff the hell out of myself. Spam vigor when I need to heal and mash that wrecking blow to victory! That's exactly what this game has been reduced to and why I'm a little angered that we tested this on PTS and called this out and got *zero* developer response to the subject.

Now watch....instead of fixing the issue, they'll probably make consecutive wrecking blows cost 33% more. History repeats itself in this game.

Lucky28 · September 2015

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I just don't know why they went absolutely crazy with the damage nerf instead of perhaps testing smaller increase increments. Just doesn't make sense to me.

It was probably all in the interest of Imperial City and Imperial city only, but they messed it up in a big way. for starts the way they did it doesn't make logical sense; battle spirit nerfs me?, lol what.
I mean i can at least understand nerfs to damage and what not when in Imperial city because there is more than just PvP in there, should have made that nerf apply only in Imperial City via some form a Daedric curse applied upon entering the city and left normal Cyrodiil as is.

If you ask me.

Ezareth · September 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

I definitely see a lot of people that based their entire 1vX around hammering "bads" with broken mechanics and explots(100% armor pen, stealth multiplier stacking,camo hunter,dawnbreaker instant dot tick,stacking 5 pieces set bonuses with deaths,ect)having a problem now. The 1vXers that didn't do that seem to be doing okay.

Perhaps you should go back to the auction house as your comments on PvP are nearly always uneducated drivel.

I never did any of that garbage and I'm not having "Problems" but that doesn't mean I can't recognize that the combat has become very routine and boring. It almost feels like PvP has beenr educed to a PvE encounter.You want to maximize your damage and ensure just enough health/passive defenses to remain alive.

Utterly boring and static gameplay.

Ezareth · September 2015

Sypher wrote: »

Screw 1vX, I'm not even going to try to defend that.

I don't care how hard it is to "1vX" but with the current damage reduction, 1v1 against players who are clearly not reacting properly or defending themselves in a timely matter is just a huge drag. Of course this has an effect on 1vX, but I'd rather be able to kill 1 person in a 1v1 at least in a timely manner, Especially if they are clearly not on par.

This patch, is rewarding players who have slow reaction time, aren't actively engaged in defending themselves, and with all these buffs the larger the group the better their odds. (as if they fact that having more players wasn't enough of an advantage).

20% Was too low of a reduction, 50% is obviously too high.

one

two

skip a few...

35% dmg/healing reduction.

That's only half the problem. The reason you're noticing a more difficult time fighting players who aren't defending themselves is because defending yourself is actually bad! The players who used to go balls to the wall offense skills (and die) in the past are now far more effective with zero skill.

There used to be balance. A well timed block, a bash, a dodge roll (or 2 or 3) until a hole opened up in someone's defenses and then *kill*. Now healers mash their healing key, and DPS mashes their highest damage ability key while everyone is trying to mix in these heavy attacks for all sorts of reasons no matter how unexciting and clunky they are.

The people who were amazing players in 1.6 are still amazing in 2.1. All of these people think that exploiting broken mechanics and such is what made a good player good but that simply isn't true. The only thing that has change is combat has become very static and boring and more of a numbers equation than ever before.

Joy_Division · September 2015

While I dislike Zenimax's "solution" to the 1.6 problem and while I maintain their adjustments to block and dodge more hurt the people who were not abusing them, 1.6 with its insta-dying and perma-dodge rolling should die a permanent death and in now way do I want to see a return.

Here what's I would have done:

Hold down block = damage/spell effectiveness cut in half. Want to perma-block? Fine, go ahead, you will suck.
Revert Health nerf back to 1.5 levels and make investing into health actually meaninful. We would not have insta-died if max magic/stam and spell/weapon damage was not so obviously best in slot.
I'd prefer a more "skillful" way to counter perma-dodging...maybe a short cooldown in-between rolls so a player could still hit a perma-dodge and dodgers could still dodge when they wanted do.
Oh, and all class shields based off health + bonus for magicka pool. You can only have 1 shield up normally, although barrier and all the little shields thru sets still should stack.
Battle-Spirit to 25%

Dreyloch · September 2015

Mythk wrote: »

1.7 has taken skill out of the equation completely for any sort of PvP, solo is nearly impossible now, and it is just becoming a group number crunching game.

TL;DR - 1.7 caters to bad players. 1vX is crucual to a skill based game, whether you like it or not. Zerging is killing the game. QQ Damage nerf. Revert to 1.5.

This is your mistake right here. Thinking that PvP should require skill and not numbers. That's how ZoS has made it from the beginning lol. I would rant about solo players crying in a "multi"-player game. But that's a subject for another day.

And no, I run with less than a full raid. Not 471347437 noobs in a zerg. So save yer matches. No flame needed here.

Winnamine · September 2015

BossTuggles wrote: »

I even being a healer think BoL spam is dumb. I dont need to target anything with smart heals I just need to keep up self buffs and spam 3. Just think of the better healers you know and have played with niw ask those people how easy it is to do the job.

I think healing is probably the same difficulty as group dps, either way, players are specialized to such a degree they literally have 1 job (that's an exaggeration, we all have utility type jobs too, but basically, you keep your buffs/shields up, and spam your smart heals/aoe damage abilities). Maybe healing is a little harder, since a healer screwing up or dying can be fatal to the whole group, whereas dps usually have more margin for error.

I think the skill gap is between group play versus solo or even duo play.
It's not hard to be a decent group player, don't run a stupid build, stay on crown, do your job. I think it is difficult to be a decent solo player, you have to be lead, heals, utility, and dps. That's tough.
However, I've noticed that the really talented players are versatile and tend to be really good whether they're playing solo or in groups.

timidobserver · September 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I definitely see a lot of people that based their entire 1vX around hammering "bads" with broken mechanics and explots(100% armor pen, stealth multiplier stacking,camo hunter,dawnbreaker instant dot tick,stacking 5 pieces set bonuses with deaths,ect)having a problem now. The 1vXers that didn't do that seem to be doing okay.

Perhaps you should go back to the auction house as your comments on PvP are nearly always uneducated drivel.

I never did any of that garbage and I'm not having "Problems" but that doesn't mean I can't recognize that the combat has become very routine and boring. It almost feels like PvP has beenr educed to a PvE encounter.You want to maximize your damage and ensure just enough health/passive defenses to remain alive.

Utterly boring and static gameplay.

Well you went the route of salty personal attacks quick. Apparently you think you know me or something, but sadly I have no idea who you are, so I can't respond in kind to your personal attacks.

On to what few points you made, I don't really find the decreased effectiveness of oneshot cheese builds to be boring or static. I also do not think that a PvE spec would be remotely productive in IC outside of maybe the large group aoe bomb tactic.

Lefty_Lucy · September 2015

It is extremely critical that everyone realizes the impact that fully upgraded V16 gear will have on your damage.

In the PTS, when comparing damage with v14 gear versus damage with v16 gear, it is clear that v16 gear will give you a noticeable increase to your damage output.

I'm sure very few people (if any) right now are running fully upgraded v16 gear. You'll do much better when you get there, trust me.

Also, you need to approach this update with a different build / playstyle mindset. Playing 1.7 exactly like you played 1.6 will not always work for you. I have made adjustments in both build and playstyle, and I have not yet been frustrated with an inability to kill someone in PvP. I still come out on top, and it is still because of my skill.

vortexman11 · September 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Yea I have no problem with nerfing damage to offset instagibbing.

I feel like Instagibbing wouldn't of been a thing in 1.6 if they fixed maces and removed mage light giving empower

Rook_Master · September 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

I definitely see a lot of people that based their entire 1vX around hammering "bads" with broken mechanics and explots(100% armor pen, stealth multiplier stacking,camo hunter,dawnbreaker instant dot tick,stacking 5 pieces set bonuses with deaths,ect)having a problem now. The 1vXers that didn't do that seem to be doing okay.

Agree.

All these 'nostalgia' videos being posted lamenting the loss of exploits make me barf.

_adhyffbjjjf12 · September 2015

Agree there, I still think Disabling aoe is an answer, it's a stupid concept for a Pvp environment because it encourages one -thing - stacking and spamming. Now they can stack and group burst players down but they can't stack an infinite shield and they don't get rewarded for rolling about like a mindless wrecking bot.

yodased · September 2015

Sypher wrote: »

This patch, is rewarding players who have slow reaction time, aren't actively engaged in defending themselves

The thing is though, obviously their research shows that the majority of players are these players. They patch around least common denominators.

Those who were "gods" because they were cheating now have to rely on the same homogeneous builds as the rest of the folks.

To anyone who used double mundus, overload bugs, nirn, sharpened, ww/vamp dual, camo hunter and the other bugs that gave you the ability to 1 shot good players and 1v10 bads:

This is your fault.

If you didn't exploit your way to "greatness" then this damage rollback wouldn't happen.

If people didn't exploit chains they would work. If people didn't exploit bats/standard/block/whip it would still be good.

The people who pay the bills dictate the way the game is balanced and the mass majority were sick and tired of being run over by people who were actively cheating to be "better" than those who weren't.

Well this is what you get, this is why we can't have nice things.

Next time when you see a cheat/exploit. Report it, don't use it, don't share it and we can then think about moving into real balance.

If you don't this cycle will continue onto the next game you decide to cheat in.

@sypher this wasn't directed at you per-se, but your comment got the train going.

Master_Kas · September 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Yea I have no problem with nerfing damage to offset instagibbing.

I feel like Instagibbing wouldn't of been a thing in 1.6 if they fixed maces and removed mage light giving empower

This. And reduce the damage on a few abilities (Snipe, Wrecking Blow, Dawnbreaker of Smiting, Proxy Deto)

Then maybe add 5-10% dmg reduction on top of what already was.

But nope

Xsorus · September 2015

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

Agree there, I still think Disabling aoe is an answer, it's a stupid concept for a Pvp environment because it encourages one -thing - stacking and spamming. Now they can stack and group burst players down but they can't stack an infinite shield and they don't get rewarded for rolling about like a mindless wrecking bot.

Umm what, removing aoe would just make stacking zergs stronger..

Ishammael · September 2015

yodased wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

This patch, is rewarding players who have slow reaction time, aren't actively engaged in defending themselves

The thing is though, obviously their research shows that the majority of players are these players. They patch around least common denominators.

Those who were "gods" because they were cheating now have to rely on the same homogeneous builds as the rest of the folks.

To anyone who used double mundus, overload bugs, nirn, sharpened, ww/vamp dual, camo hunter and the other bugs that gave you the ability to 1 shot good players and 1v10 bads:

This is your fault.

If you didn't exploit your way to "greatness" then this damage rollback wouldn't happen.

If people didn't exploit chains they would work. If people didn't exploit bats/standard/block/whip it would still be good.

The people who pay the bills dictate the way the game is balanced and the mass majority were sick and tired of being run over by people who were actively cheating to be "better" than those who weren't.

Well this is what you get, this is why we can't have nice things.

Next time when you see a cheat/exploit. Report it, don't use it, don't share it and we can then think about moving into real balance.

If you don't this cycle will continue onto the next game you decide to cheat in.

@sypher this wasn't directed at you per-se, but your comment got the train going.

You have stood up too many straw men here.

You should be mad at cheaters/exploiters. Should they be ashamed for exploiting? Yes. Banned? Probably. However these exploiters didn't patch the game. And ZoS for whatever reason refuses to police player conduct.

Next, not all good players are cheaters and exploiters. You didn't have to exploit to wipe 10 bads nor have the latest OP builds. Sypher's frustration is that 1.7 combat is too forgiving of poor play.

Finally, I agree with @Lefty_Lucy in that we need to wait and see what happens in v16 gear. The +50% stats on the jewelry/weapon sets is quite a bit.

Publius_Scipio · September 2015

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

It is extremely critical that everyone realizes the impact that fully upgraded V16 gear will have on your damage.

In the PTS, when comparing damage with v14 gear versus damage with v16 gear, it is clear that v16 gear will give you a noticeable increase to your damage output.

I'm sure very few people (if any) right now are running fully upgraded v16 gear. You'll do much better when you get there, trust me.

Also, you need to approach this update with a different build / playstyle mindset. Playing 1.7 exactly like you played 1.6 will not always work for you. I have made adjustments in both build and playstyle, and I have not yet been frustrated with an inability to kill someone in PvP. I still come out on top, and it is still because of my skill.

Has anyone ever told you that you look like Shia Labeouf?

1.171230.jpg

And yeah you are right. Basically to sum up your post, Imperial City has been out for two days and people are complaining before even getting settled in. That's like them complaining that the Greek yogurt is bad before even having tasted it.

yodased · September 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

well thought out response.

It's takes some extrapolating and some conjecture sure, but think about it.

The amount of damage that was the cause of the uproar and the unbalance in PvP from 1.6 was from broken mechanics and skills that stacked without testing first.

The ability to do 20-30k in damage within 1 second was the problem the majority of people shared.

Now ZOS balanced around that in typical ZOS faction of completely changing systems instead of small tweaks, but it was foreseeable that they would do so from their history.

edit:

The title of this thread is quite condescending in and of itself. The general attitude is itself why this nerf happened IMO. The "bads" are the people who spend the most money.