The Bads Have Finally Won

Ezareth

Artemis wrote: »

@Ezareth

Extremely skilled? Well you see, the majority of players are not. And just knowing the scripts is not enough to get to the leaderboard, but sure- enough to complete.

Yeah I can relate to crazy survivability, I remember holy paladins on arena, those guys would never run out of magicka lol. Anyways, I don't think they are "rewarded", because everyone is in the same conditions. You just want your skill and experience to give you even more advantage so you feel godly, admit it

From my point of view, nerfing damage is a good thing - I will try pvp now. Before that? It just wouldn't be fun for those who joined later. No skill =>die fast=>not enough time alive to learn anything. Aaaaand cyrodiil turned into horse riding simulator rather than pvp area
Maybe now bads like myself have a chance to learn pvp, so they/we will be attracted to cyro? Is it a bad thing?

I enjoy executing a plan to success and winning in a disadvantageous scenario true.

Please don't get me wrong and lump me in with a lot of other players that look down on "Bads" or casuals etc. I've helped quite a few players improve through explaining mistakes they made, giving them advice on their builds or explaining what exactly I am doing to be successful when asked. I've always been the first person to expose everything I learn that is either an exploit, an OP mechanic or trait. I've only kept one secret from others in my entirety of time in this game(My Archmage/Seducer combo), everything else I've ever known or learned was given to whoever asked.

A lot of people love to sit in towers and things to farm these "bad" players for AP but I look at it through the lense of these are the same players that populate the game and without them the game dies so farming them over and over isn't improving the game.

Many of you people see us "1vXers" in the wrong light. Our videos make it seem like all we do is kill large groups of people with little to no risk to ourselves through abusing one mechanic or another...when the reality is for ever clip we have of success, we have 5 or 10 clips of failure. Those are the times those groups of "bads" got to enjoy taking down a good player and hopefully learn something from the experience. It gives them something to work towards and I put myself in extremely difficult scenarios just because I think it is fair that the people I'm fighting have a chance to win (and they always do).

If this game becomes a homogeneous style of pvp where it is hard to differentiate between the extremely skilled and unskilled then it becomes less interesting for everyone.

If you're having difficulty in Cyrodiil, don't try to do it by yourself. All of us at some point sought the help and experience of other players who were our peers or betters. Then we went out on our own and built on that knowledge and experience to take it to the next level. Trying to enter cyrodiil on your own and expect to learn and become a good player is like trying to become a doctor in med school without ever having a high school education.

frozywozy

I must admit that group play is much better but 1v1 or 1vX scenarios are really bad.
Find the perfect balance between TTK of 1.6 and TTK of 1.7. There you go! Fixed.

Darlgon

tinythinker wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

coryrenick_ESO wrote: »

I still can't do a tenth of the damage people are doing to me, so I really don't want to hear any more whining that it's too hard to kill scrubs.

No one cares about scrubs

The title of this thread is "The Bads Have Finally Won". Plenty of threads to complain about the damage changes that don't revolve around blaming "bad players", but this one does.

Lucky28 wrote: »

it's the fact that two decent players cannot have an engaging fight, happened to me tonight. ran into a DC and we could not kill each other, so we gave up and did some Dolmens together...... what world is this?, that would have never happened in 1.6.

Nah, PvP is now dead to me, i go to Cyrodiil for PvE content, which makes me rather sad.

The focus of PvP development isn't on 1v1 or 1vX. I wonder how many people would sign up for a 1.6 rules version of a campaign if it were offered. I am guessing not many, but if enough want it someone should start a thread and lobby for it.

Bet if you offered 1.5, with a few tweaks, and no lag.......

Rylana

Darlgon wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

coryrenick_ESO wrote: »

I still can't do a tenth of the damage people are doing to me, so I really don't want to hear any more whining that it's too hard to kill scrubs.

No one cares about scrubs

The title of this thread is "The Bads Have Finally Won". Plenty of threads to complain about the damage changes that don't revolve around blaming "bad players", but this one does.

Lucky28 wrote: »

it's the fact that two decent players cannot have an engaging fight, happened to me tonight. ran into a DC and we could not kill each other, so we gave up and did some Dolmens together...... what world is this?, that would have never happened in 1.6.

Nah, PvP is now dead to me, i go to Cyrodiil for PvE content, which makes me rather sad.

The focus of PvP development isn't on 1v1 or 1vX. I wonder how many people would sign up for a 1.6 rules version of a campaign if it were offered. I am guessing not many, but if enough want it someone should start a thread and lobby for it.

Bet if you offered 1.5, with a few tweaks, and no lag.......

OMG WHERE

DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT

Dyride

coryrenick_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

coryrenick_ESO wrote: »

Built around sustain and defence? And yet could still hit harder than anything else on the battlefield.

Stopped reading there. I hit nothing like the hardest thing on the battlefield.

When I was running a burst build i could get 23-24k crystal frags crits for poops and giggles. That was hitting hard , but that build was not very survivable. On my sustain build my frags crits hit for 13-14k at best.

13-14K isn't harder than anything else on the battlefield?
You're already in siege weapon territory. And that's exactly why this nerf was necessary.

Considering in 1.6, I could get my Crit Charge to hit for 15k+ in the right conditions, yeah it isn't too OP. (Orc Stamplar, +28% Crit damage, Sharpened Maul).

Alcast

Dyride wrote: »

coryrenick_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

coryrenick_ESO wrote: »

Built around sustain and defence? And yet could still hit harder than anything else on the battlefield.

Stopped reading there. I hit nothing like the hardest thing on the battlefield.

When I was running a burst build i could get 23-24k crystal frags crits for poops and giggles. That was hitting hard , but that build was not very survivable. On my sustain build my frags crits hit for 13-14k at best.

13-14K isn't harder than anything else on the battlefield?
You're already in siege weapon territory. And that's exactly why this nerf was necessary.

Considering in 1.6, I could get my Crit Charge to hit for 15k+ in the right conditions, yeah it isn't too OP. (Orc Stamplar, +28% Crit damage, Sharpened Maul).

mostly due to sharpened bug tho.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

I loled so hard this night when i felt 1v1 in front of a well known NB exploiter on UE servers. No more 2 mundus exploit, mace-sword pen etc etc. he rushed on me twice, can't kill me, was near from death 2 times and then he vanished in shades. That guy posts a lot of *** on forums about "skill players". Without bug exploits, he suddenly lost ALL his supposed skills. HAHAHA ! IG Cheaters are always losers IRL

olsborg

Mythk wrote: »

1.7 has taken skill out of the equation completely for any sort of PvP, solo is nearly impossible now, and it is just becoming a group number crunching game.



1.6 may have had too much damage, but I think most of us can agree 1.7 made things even worse.



TL;DR - 1.7 caters to bad players. 1vX is crucual to a skill based game, whether you like it or not. Zerging is killing the game. QQ Damage nerf. Revert to 1.5.

This needs to land on @ZOS_RichLambert 's desk tonight, and he needs to fix the game.

VincentBlanquin

nobody wins, just zos messed up things more than they was

Angarato

this thread made me think of an old wow video. with the rogues being the 1vXers. trust me you can still do it when you learn2play the new patch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqx1CFomKMI

Sensesfail13

Mythk wrote: »

Everyone needs to be honest with themselves at this point in time, because problems keep arising since people are not honest with themselves.
No one liked the instagibbing of 1.6, but was it really that bad in comparison to not being able to kill anyone at all?

1.7 has made passive defense much more powerful than active defense - a completely unreasonable change in a game where skill is supposedly a huge factor in determining the victor of a fight. It means that 2 players can fight each other, and the less skilled player can make every mistake in the world and not die in a timely manner. I understand that they want to reduce 1vX, but I for one get very frustrated when I can visibly tell I am outplaying my opponent and they are still hanging on because they pop one heal in a minute which allows them to survive due to the damage reduction.

1.7 has taken skill out of the equation completely for any sort of PvP, solo is nearly impossible now, and it is just becoming a group number crunching game.


The reason the damage in 1.6 was needed is because there needed to be a way to kill players that strayed from their zerg. There needed to be some incentive for solo players to be able to keep playing. 1.6 may not have been the way to go after 1.5, but 1.7 took that wrong step and amplified what we didn't want to happen.
Personally, I would just push for a 1.5 revert, though obviously that would never happen at this point, but we need to reevaluate things as a community. I know everyone hates 1vX, but that is essentially what keeps PvP alive. I saw a Sypher video long ago when I first got this game, and I thought to myself "Wow, I want to attain mastery of PvP like him!" and I worked my butt off until I got to that point.

I disagree that people say 1vX videos are a disincentive for new players. If anything, it should bolster someone to want to be that person in the video, the one doing the killing. And at this point we really do need to be completely honest with ourselves. Half of the people on this game complain about 1vX completely, yet when something is done about it, they realize the mistake.

Everyone does 1vX. Just because you don't video it doesn't mean that group of 3 you just killed wasn't the X. 1vX is essential for a skill based game to survive, especially since numbers just grow more and more powerful. As long as damage is nerfed, solo and small scale PvP will cease to exist, given enough time. Fighting as a solo player is comparable to banging your head against a wall if you know what is going on. When you can be throwing everything you've got on a player that isn't actively defending themselves or healing, yet you still can't kill them, that is when things are just ridiculous.

This update caters to any of the bad players out there that didn't bother to learn game mechanics, or investigate other classes to see what sort of abilities they use so as to counter them. It caters to all the players unable to realize that you need to use active defense to survive, rather than just standing there and eating damage like a bad. It kills any sort of skill aspect that goes into surviving or killing other players in the game, and it promotes the numbers game even more than it did before.


1.6 may have had too much damage, but I think most of us can agree 1.7 made things even worse.



TL;DR - 1.7 caters to bad players. 1vX is crucual to a skill based game, whether you like it or not. Zerging is killing the game. QQ Damage nerf. Revert to 1.5.

Amen. If only the dev's werent just tossing a newspaper over the accident and hoping it goes away.

Jolinius

yodased wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

well thought out response.

It's takes some extrapolating and some conjecture sure, but think about it.

The amount of damage that was the cause of the uproar and the unbalance in PvP from 1.6 was from broken mechanics and skills that stacked without testing first.

The ability to do 20-30k in damage within 1 second was the problem the majority of people shared.

Now ZOS balanced around that in typical ZOS faction of completely changing systems instead of small tweaks, but it was foreseeable that they would do so from their history.

edit:

The title of this thread is quite condescending in and of itself. The general attitude is itself why this nerf happened IMO. The "bads" are the people who spend the most money.

Jolinius

i dont know if this makes me a bad but id pay $200 to get 1.5 back just with a fewq tweaks and some new freakin content.

JDar

Jolinius wrote: »

i dont know if this makes me a bad but id pay $200 to get 1.5 back just with a fewq tweaks and some new freakin content.

Those were the halcyon days

Rylana

The direction the game is going is going to drive it right into an iceberg

Ishammael

Rylana wrote: »

The direction the game is going is going to drive it right into an iceberg

CU?

bosmern_ESO

There are times where I wont even engage someone because I don't want to sit there for 3 minutes fighting someone who out heals my damage, even if I CC them and apply all my burst they will still live. I've begun to look around for an ally so they can help kill the person with me, and its the same way for people attacking me.

PvP right now is just meh and I'm hearing from a lot of people that they are considering quitting, not because IC made Cyrodiil empty, but because PvP is so boring now, anyone can be good at it.

hell, most of the time I prefer to grind mobs in the sewers then fight other players, and I hate PvE.

Cathexis

Personally I'm a fan of the changes, although night blade cloak spam is ***.

Melee damage/healing meta is way better than instagib.

Ara_Valleria

FENGRUSH wrote: »

People were BoLing from 10% to full in 1.6. Theyre still outhealing my damage, but now I cant burst them.

Sounds like a L2P issue to me.

#GitGudmaybe?

Rust_in_Peace

It's funny and sad at the same time watching people who cried over and over again that things like dodge rolling, bolting, healing, blockcasting, etc. needed a nerf are here crying that the nerfs are too much.

You idiots got exactly what you asked for and the game is worse for it.

Teargrants

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

It's funny and sad at the same time watching people who cried over and over again that things like dodge rolling, bolting, healing, blockcasting, etc. needed a nerf are here crying that the nerfs are too much.

You idiots got exactly what you asked for and the game is worse for it.

Actually no? To the logical observer, it sounds like such things as "dodge rolling, bolting, healing, blockcasting, etc" were out of hand in certain respects, leading to calls for balance - which you derisively call "crying".

Then as we all can see, ZOS Nerfed the hell out of things in 2.1 with sweeping changes to core game mechanics that were unneeded and excessive. These changes went too far, and create a whole new set of problems. The most obvious 'fix' would be to add back some form of soft caps, you know, the very same soft caps who's removal gave rise to these problems to begin with.

That you refer to this as "idiots getting what you asked for" is simply a poorly thought out insult.

Mojmir

k2blader wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Im still thinking about the bad vs good comparison. Also thinking about what the acceptence of that comparison means we as a community believe in.

The game for better or worse is populated by more people who play games, but dont define themselves as 'gamers'.

I know this is a bit off, but hear me out.

The average eso player isnt going to do what you did, @Krim. Or @ezareth or @sypher or @gorthax or @heroofnone or @MissBizz. They only 'play' this game. Its just,a thing to do. They dont want to organize rp events or theorycraft unlimited blink builds, or memorize the entire cyrodiil map or even learn what other,classes skills are in comparison to thier own.

They want to log into the game, have a fun time during tbeir playtime and log off.

If thats pvp then they dont want to have a specific build,they had to look up on forums or theorycraft, to not be killed in one second after riding their horse for 2 minutes.

If thats pve they want to be able to go into pvp and get quests done while being able to run away and hide if attacked.

These players typically spend less time and more money on games than 'gamers' as it is,faster and easier to buy the item you need to have fun with than do something they don't like in the limited time they have to play.

If this makes a 'bad' player then yes they have won, but there never was even a fight to begin. They always will win because there are so many more of them willing to pay for what they want.

QFT.

The 4th (edited - my bad) paragraph I think is where some people get hung up. They think, "If they don't play like me they're bad." Yet they also seem to not understand they're in the topmost sliver that is the hardcore gamer.

The bold part is where the vast majority of people are. I think that's what makes games like this most fun, because they get it's about the plain ol' fun. Then after a couple hours of it (or trying to attain it) they go log off and attend to their lives. It's a good thing.

And these are the ones paying the bills through crown store purchases I'm sure

PikkonMG

yodased wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

This patch, is rewarding players who have slow reaction time, aren't actively engaged in defending themselves

The thing is though, obviously their research shows that the majority of players are these players. They patch around least common denominators.

Those who were "gods" because they were cheating now have to rely on the same homogeneous builds as the rest of the folks.

To anyone who used double mundus, overload bugs, nirn, sharpened, ww/vamp dual, camo hunter and the other bugs that gave you the ability to 1 shot good players and 1v10 bads:

This is your fault.

If you didn't exploit your way to "greatness" then this damage rollback wouldn't happen.

If people didn't exploit chains they would work. If people didn't exploit bats/standard/block/whip it would still be good.

The people who pay the bills dictate the way the game is balanced and the mass majority were sick and tired of being run over by people who were actively cheating to be "better" than those who weren't.

Well this is what you get, this is why we can't have nice things.

Next time when you see a cheat/exploit. Report it, don't use it, don't share it and we can then think about moving into real balance.

If you don't this cycle will continue onto the next game you decide to cheat in.

@sypher this wasn't directed at you per-se, but your comment got the train going.

Clueless.

ewhite106b16_ESO

I really have to agree with the OP. IMO ZOS screwed PVP up severely by putting in a huge blanket nerf to damage rather then focusing on the specific tricks players were using to one shot in PVP. there's plenty of builds that didn't need damage nerfs at all, PVP after the patch feels way too slow and way more boring with the huge nerfs to active defenses like dodging and blocking combined with nerfed damage.

IMO addresssing the real problem areas FIRST then seeing how pvp turned out would have been a much better option, I'm talking things like:

- mace penetration bug
- multiple mundus stone bug
- shield stacking
- streak
- a more nuanced approach to dealing with dodge and block spam, reduced stamina regen while blocking not eliminating it.
- animation canceling drastically upping skill damage - it should be possible to cancel an attack or skill animation into a weapon swap/bash/block/dodge/other skill but that skill should NOT have any effect.

Basically fixing the real problem with 1.6 PVP, not hitting everything with a massive nerf sledge hammer. Right now it's feeling like combat went from being fun to severely simplified and boring - it's time to force the lowest skill players to better their gameplay, not cater to their lack of skill.

JDar

Cathexis wrote: »

Personally I'm a fan of the changes, although night blade cloak spam is ***.

Melee damage/healing meta is way better than instagib.

That's always been a thing though. We were all doing it in 1.6 but nobody really complained.

And yes I agree with you. The main gripe seems to be that weaker players take a little more effort to kill and that 3 man groups of elite players can't steamroll a group of ten any more.

It is ridiculous to think you should be entitled to do that. What's even more ridiculous is that some players are saying they can't have fun any more because of this change!

Brings to mind a video I saw of NBA player Dwyane Wade playing dodgeball with a bunch of ten year olds. That's what people want to do to have fun and it is a sordid little bit of human nature revealed in a lot of the community.

Edited for readability

Lord_Hev

JDar wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Personally I'm a fan of the changes, although night blade cloak spam is ***.

Melee damage/healing meta is way better than instagib.

That's always been a thing though. We were all doing it in 1.6 but nobody really complained.

And yes I agree with you. The main gripe seems to be that weaker players take a little more effort to kill and that 3 man groups of elite players can't steamroll a group of ten any more.

It is ridiculous to think you should be entitled to do that. What's even more ridiculous is that some players are saying they can't have fun any more because of this change!

Brings to mind a video I saw of NBA player Dwyane Wade playing dodgeball with a bunch of ten year olds. That's what people want to do to have fun and it is a sordid little bit of human nature revealed in a lot of the community.

Edited for readability

No and no. First off, it is "possible." 4 of us wiped an AD zerg of 15+ players. Granted, we had to force them to spread out by making them chase us by splitting up, but we did it.


It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has nothing to do with 1vX being possible. What it has to do... is with combat being utterly clumsy, tedious, and drawn out. It is waaayyyy to forgiving. It takes me 10 seconds just to kill someone that is AFK...

JDar

Lord_Hev wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Personally I'm a fan of the changes, although night blade cloak spam is ***.

Melee damage/healing meta is way better than instagib.

That's always been a thing though. We were all doing it in 1.6 but nobody really complained.

And yes I agree with you. The main gripe seems to be that weaker players take a little more effort to kill and that 3 man groups of elite players can't steamroll a group of ten any more.

It is ridiculous to think you should be entitled to do that. What's even more ridiculous is that some players are saying they can't have fun any more because of this change!

Brings to mind a video I saw of NBA player Dwyane Wade playing dodgeball with a bunch of ten year olds. That's what people want to do to have fun and it is a sordid little bit of human nature revealed in a lot of the community.

Edited for readability

No and no. First off, it is "possible." 4 of us wiped an AD zerg of 15+ players. Granted, we had to force them to spread out by making them chase us by splitting up, but we did it.


It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has nothing to do with 1vX being possible. What it has to do... is with combat being utterly clumsy, tedious, and drawn out. It is waaayyyy to forgiving. It takes me 10 seconds just to kill someone that is AFK...

How long do you think it should take you kill someone who is AFK

When you say "forgiving" I think "the other player has a chance to recover from a high-damage burst"

MrGrimey

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

It is extremely critical that everyone realizes the impact that fully upgraded V16 gear will have on your damage.

In the PTS, when comparing damage with v14 gear versus damage with v16 gear, it is clear that v16 gear will give you a noticeable increase to your damage output.

I'm sure very few people (if any) right now are running fully upgraded v16 gear. You'll do much better when you get there, trust me.

Also, you need to approach this update with a different build / playstyle mindset. Playing 1.7 exactly like you played 1.6 will not always work for you. I have made adjustments in both build and playstyle, and I have not yet been frustrated with an inability to kill someone in PvP. I still come out on top, and it is still because of my skill.

Since when did you need a fully upgraded set of v14 gear in 1.6 to get a kill. I really don't think that's going to change anything, especially when heavy armor users get their fully upgraded v16 set.

Plain and simple, damage is too low. Being in max gear shouldn't be the only way to actually do damage and kill someone in a timely manner

ToRelax

JDar wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Personally I'm a fan of the changes, although night blade cloak spam is ***.

Melee damage/healing meta is way better than instagib.

That's always been a thing though. We were all doing it in 1.6 but nobody really complained.

And yes I agree with you. The main gripe seems to be that weaker players take a little more effort to kill and that 3 man groups of elite players can't steamroll a group of ten any more.

It is ridiculous to think you should be entitled to do that. What's even more ridiculous is that some players are saying they can't have fun any more because of this change!

Brings to mind a video I saw of NBA player Dwyane Wade playing dodgeball with a bunch of ten year olds. That's what people want to do to have fun and it is a sordid little bit of human nature revealed in a lot of the community.

Edited for readability

No and no. First off, it is "possible." 4 of us wiped an AD zerg of 15+ players. Granted, we had to force them to spread out by making them chase us by splitting up, but we did it.


It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has nothing to do with 1vX being possible. What it has to do... is with combat being utterly clumsy, tedious, and drawn out. It is waaayyyy to forgiving. It takes me 10 seconds just to kill someone that is AFK...

How long do you think it should take you kill someone who is AFK

When you say "forgiving" I think "the other player has a chance to recover from a high-damage burst"

Forgiving means you can play very, very bad and still survive.

Sharee

ToRelax wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Personally I'm a fan of the changes, although night blade cloak spam is ***.

Melee damage/healing meta is way better than instagib.

That's always been a thing though. We were all doing it in 1.6 but nobody really complained.

And yes I agree with you. The main gripe seems to be that weaker players take a little more effort to kill and that 3 man groups of elite players can't steamroll a group of ten any more.

It is ridiculous to think you should be entitled to do that. What's even more ridiculous is that some players are saying they can't have fun any more because of this change!

Brings to mind a video I saw of NBA player Dwyane Wade playing dodgeball with a bunch of ten year olds. That's what people want to do to have fun and it is a sordid little bit of human nature revealed in a lot of the community.

Edited for readability

No and no. First off, it is "possible." 4 of us wiped an AD zerg of 15+ players. Granted, we had to force them to spread out by making them chase us by splitting up, but we did it.


It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has nothing to do with 1vX being possible. What it has to do... is with combat being utterly clumsy, tedious, and drawn out. It is waaayyyy to forgiving. It takes me 10 seconds just to kill someone that is AFK...

How long do you think it should take you kill someone who is AFK

When you say "forgiving" I think "the other player has a chance to recover from a high-damage burst"

Forgiving means you can play very, very bad and still survive.

If someone is playing very very badly and still survives, then his attacker isn't exactly star league either.