Stamina tanks are useless now in vet dungeons and pledges. Will hold off from playing the game until they fix this mess. been playing this build since launch, it never felt this pathetic until now.

I feel like ZOS came to me and said "Bend over, I'm gonna nerf you really, really...BAD".

@bowmanz607 So Im going to ask this, are you a developer because Ive literally seen you and just one other person on these forums advocating that these horrid changes are all good fine and dandy and not one other voice, other than the two of you, for any of the nerfs in this patch.
I can personally say Ive had no less than 20 people throw in the towel since release yesterday and another 10+ that arent even going to waste their money on this garbage dlc because of the bad reviews from the majority of people playing the game. That includes long time players from very good guilds on the NA servers spanning all three alliances.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Blade_07 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

nobertpaulb16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Blade_07 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

I disagree with this. Keep up the work zos. Also, they did listen to a lot of feedback. In fact, they listened to a ton. Just cause they stayed with things you don't like doesn't mean they didn't listen.

Hmm...so not giving what customers want is a good thing? I do realize that only listening to a small group of people is not good at all but please listen to the majority for crying out loud!!!

why is this majority nonsense keep coming up. do you have numbers on how many people play the game? do you get all of the feedback that zos gets? does your majority argument come strictly from looking at these forums? please explain how you have come to the conclusion that you know what the majority is. based on my experiences and many people i know we like the changes. it hurts but we adapt to it in what we believe to be better overall. I do not, however, think that the many players I talk to are the majority. just like these forums, the players i knoware a very small part of the player base. You have no idea what the majority is. people throw that out there like they have all the information. you dont. and really think about it from a business perspective. does it make sense to cater to the minority? that aside, there is no way any of us can really know what the majority is. (unless of course you assume that zos operates like a logical business and ops for going for more money over less. but that is just one opinion.)

All you have to do is open up zone chat and ask a general question there about the changes.

The responses you get there mirror the posts here. Especially if you are talking to VR12s and below

zone chat. thats your fall back. many people dont even have their zone chat on.

Your right in one respect and that is that we really have no way to know for sure who the majority really is on this topic. All we have is what we see on the forums and whats said in zone chat in game. I think its the best way we have of coming close to what we feel is the majority of people. This is just a questimate and nobody has stated that this is FACT but rather an indication that indeed the majority dose not like this update. Yes, not 100% but I feel its a good guess.

AND...how do you know how many people dont have there zone chat on???? I dont see anything that implies this one way or the other.

First, i said "many people" this was generalized terminology and did not stipulate one way or the other. I only have my own experience to go on which includes how other people i know play the game. Second, your saying the majority based on the limited exposure you have had to other players insight on the game. Relying on a forums and zone chat, that operates much like the forums, for your "majority" insight is just ludacris. a person is more likely to put their opinion on forums online when they have a bad experience. people who dont have a bad experience continue to play the game cause they like it. So, it is important to understand that forums are always going to lean toward the negative side. moreover, zos other sources of information include but not limited to guild meetings, forums (on multiple sites), /feedback, /bug, live streams, posted videos and many more i am sure im missing. As for an opinon from my experience...I do not rely on the forums and zone chat to form my thoughts on majority player opinion. I obviously have my 5 guilds that I am a part of. also, my main guild has close ties with 5 other guilds that are located on multiple factions. there is a lot of bleed over from all guilds into each other. so, my exposure to player base opinions are varied and cross faction. ofcourse there is my rather large individual friends list. also, my main guild meets with zos, so we gather information from guild members about their feedback for zos. I have been in the game since beta and have been on the PTS for every major update constatly dueling and getting feedback from players on that server. Based on all that and my own experience playing the game I find that more often than not players understand there will be a bit of a learning curve and testing to get the builds right again, but ultimately will make the game better. I ofcourse do not think this constitutes the majority mainly because there is know way of ever knowing that. That is also not to say that I have not run into people that dont like it. I have run into those people just not as often. Overall, i will take my experience and the feedback I here over the yelling in the forums or zone chat any day. .

So Im going to break this down for you, your guild that meets with zenimax is obviously part of the problem, unless they didnt take your advice, in that case the point in moot and just proves zenimax doesnt listen to its players/customer base.

"Relying on a forums and zone chat, that operates much like the forums, for your "majority" insight is just ludacris"

- I dont see why, not only is zone chat an open forum whether for trolls or actual concerned players this allows you to take opinions from many varied sources that dont include your esteemed "guild that talks with zenimax". The normal players, and the forums are an outlet for people that are so outraged that they feel something needs to be said about the state of the game, and that can also go in the other direction, although, Ive seen very rare positive forum posts.

" I have been in the game since beta and have been on the PTS for every major update constatly dueling and getting feedback from players on that server. Based on all that and my own experience playing the game I find that more often than not players understand there will be a bit of a learning curve and testing to get the builds right again"

- I have been around since BETA and have been part of the PTS for these "major patches" as well, and I am on a totally different wavelength from any of your posts on these forums. There have been many great constructive posts for better change in the game that would effect every player positively in the long run, @Personofsecrets to name one being very postive and vocal for changes that help the game rather than hinder the player base. All ignored. Tweaking builds and changing different mechanics is a given with any major patch in any MMO, however, a total overhaul with blanket nerfs that effect every player in every playstyle as well as negatively effecting a major role within any MMO structure is not what I call tweaking builds or a learning curve, its a complete restructure of the game, in a negative way. And after over a year an a half of release 3 major overhauls of game mechanics, bringing negative publicity and major exodus' from the game, I think its time to look at other options as far as "fixing" the game.

"That is also not to say that I have not run into people that dont like it. I have run into those people just not as often. Overall, i will take my experience and the feedback I here over the yelling in the forums or zone chat any day."

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Bashing & Rude or Insulting Comments]

@Sensesfail13 , there isn't much discussion to be had with @bowmanz607 .

@bowmanz607 and I discussed tanks a bit in a PTS thread and, for the 1000 + hours of experience they have in ESO, they made a comment about how tanks have "infinite stamina" and how tanks fulfill their roles duties by just holding block. These are sophomoric views about tanking and not what I would expect to come from someone that is knowledgeable about the role.

Tell us @bowmanz607 , can you site a study to show what you think about negative feedback being more vocal than positive feedback to be true. If you can do such a thing, then can you indicate how the ESO forums falls under the scope of that study and, furthermore, how the opinions of those who don't like the nerf are invalidated just because there may be a few more people that like the nerf? Can you prove those things or are you going to continue insinuating that the other side can't prove their side of the story?

Perhaps you are citing the developers in the idea that there is a 50/50 split on the nerf. Well, the developers stated how they get their feedback and there is all of the reason to believe that the 50% for are not representative of the players who are affected by the nerf. You even claim to be part of a guild that has guild talks. A guild that gathers information from all of it's members, such as yourself, and informs the developers. Yet, when you hold such caricature views of tanking, then how can we expect guild talks that you have been a part of to be representative of an opinion that is healthy for tanking?

When it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what the majority wants. This choice made with this games development isn't based on a democracy. Because it isn't a democracy, then we might find this nerf being reverted. If the number of people who subscribe in the future is less than the number people that subscribed pre-nerf, then someone will be accountable for that revenue loss and for doing what they can to remedy the situation.

aialghannam_ESO wrote: »

Stamina tanks are useless now in vet dungeons and pledges. Will hold off from playing the game until they fix this mess. been playing this build since launch, it never felt this pathetic until now.

exactly same feeling here, been playing a stamina tank since pc release and never felt this pathetic even when magicka, robes and sticks dominated the game..

it's like the devs don't know their own game and i know that's not true...
tanks in eso are not about taunt - hold block until mobs dies - win

we have to move around, positioning is very important to avoid unnecesary damage on self and your allies, dogde, block, taunt, use debuffs on mobs and if possible buffs on self and allies and dps too, all based on the situation and the mechanics of the fight and holding all the possible aggros at the same time, it's a very resource intensive playstyle and now its crippled.

Mojmir wrote: »

nobertpaulb16_ESO wrote: »

I was not working much today, but I was on the forums lots.

The amount of I quit threads that got removed today has been the highest count I have seen since , well, ever.

And the number of people claiming to have been canceling their Plus membership is staggering.

I think this has gone way beyond a L2P issue that some out there are desperately trying to make it out to be.

it is now a L2P by yourself issue.

Well said and so true.

Blade_07 wrote: »

WolffenBloodseeker wrote: »

it's like the devs don't know their own game and i know that's not true...
tanks in eso are not about taunt - hold block until mobs dies - win

we have to move around, positioning is very important to avoid unnecesary damage on self and your allies, dogde, block, taunt, use debuffs on mobs and if possible buffs on self and allies and dps too, all based on the situation and the mechanics of the fight and holding all the possible aggros at the same time, it's a very resource intensive playstyle and now its crippled.

There is no getting around the basic party structure in any MMO. The tank is a very vital roll in a group setup as is a healer and then DPS. You remove any one of those and things tend to fall apart. I'm curious to see how people are gunna do group oriented content.

Exactly, the trinity is a thing in any MMO with group content, every role is important and the party fails if one fail, right now some people are rage quiting the game after been totaly destroyed (or having a really unnecesary hardtime) in the same dungeons they did 1000 times before with lots of random groups, the nerfs may not affect so much the ultra hardcore people (who usually flock to the flavor of the month build anyway) but not so hardcore and casuals (even more those who PUG alot like myself) are geting really affected by all the nerfs.. i'll not quit because i really like ESO and the TES series but i just don't have the will to play until they do something about this.

SirAndy wrote: »

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

your guild that meets with zenimax is obviously part of the problem

@Sensesfail13
Unfortunately, this has been the case since early beta. There are a few selected guilds (one in particular) that have been pushing their own agenda to ZOS from the very beginning.

A lot of the changes that make you go "what the hell was ZOS thinking?" can be directly traced back to those guilds and the preferred playstyles of their members.

In retrospect, that has probably been the single most damaging outside influence for this game.

That just horrible. I don't know how else to put it. That's equivalent to insider trading...

I been sitting here thinking about how many people leaving will it take before they decide to fix this mistake. And then I realize that they could actually let this game take a nose dive right into the bottomless abyss. One would think they would fix this issue right away but with these guys who really knows. I really dont wish this game and zenimax ill and I have stayed with ESO from the start through everything wishing like hell that ESO would be awesome but I'm at a loss at this point. I doubt that they will ever be able to get up and start flying right.

One of the major ZOS problems is that they are to slow to react and fix issues.

Players leave when you don't communicate, this happened in droves when ESO was released.

All they have to do is acknowledge publicity some changes, changes a large portion of a good, well meaning player base already knows.

The ZOS devs are casual players because they work on the game, this is fine, but they need to hire someone who actually knows what is going on and can give proper feedback.

Ronvaldr wrote: »

We as customers have a right to voice our opinions and/or a right to stop being customers. I tried to voice my opinion today by saying that I was going to give the game a grace period of trying to deal with the changes and if I wasn't having any fun I would probably unsub. My thread was promptly closed, so I promptly unsubscribed. This is from someone that has been subbed from day one and never had any complaints about the game.
Good luck to anyone trying to find a Tank in the near future.

They are dealing with a zerg of their own right now. The mass of people leaving the game.
The company line is to denigh and cover up any and all disent.

They most likely won't say anything till after the console update, but by then it will be to late.

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

@bowmanz607 So Im going to ask this, are you a developer because Ive literally seen you and just one other person on these forums advocating that these horrid changes are all good fine and dandy and not one other voice, other than the two of you, for any of the nerfs in this patch.
I can personally say Ive had no less than 20 people throw in the towel since release yesterday and another 10+ that arent even going to waste their money on this garbage dlc because of the bad reviews from the majority of people playing the game. That includes long time players from very good guilds on the NA servers spanning all three alliances.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Blade_07 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

nobertpaulb16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Blade_07 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

I disagree with this. Keep up the work zos. Also, they did listen to a lot of feedback. In fact, they listened to a ton. Just cause they stayed with things you don't like doesn't mean they didn't listen.

Hmm...so not giving what customers want is a good thing? I do realize that only listening to a small group of people is not good at all but please listen to the majority for crying out loud!!!

why is this majority nonsense keep coming up. do you have numbers on how many people play the game? do you get all of the feedback that zos gets? does your majority argument come strictly from looking at these forums? please explain how you have come to the conclusion that you know what the majority is. based on my experiences and many people i know we like the changes. it hurts but we adapt to it in what we believe to be better overall. I do not, however, think that the many players I talk to are the majority. just like these forums, the players i knoware a very small part of the player base. You have no idea what the majority is. people throw that out there like they have all the information. you dont. and really think about it from a business perspective. does it make sense to cater to the minority? that aside, there is no way any of us can really know what the majority is. (unless of course you assume that zos operates like a logical business and ops for going for more money over less. but that is just one opinion.)

All you have to do is open up zone chat and ask a general question there about the changes.

The responses you get there mirror the posts here. Especially if you are talking to VR12s and below

zone chat. thats your fall back. many people dont even have their zone chat on.

Your right in one respect and that is that we really have no way to know for sure who the majority really is on this topic. All we have is what we see on the forums and whats said in zone chat in game. I think its the best way we have of coming close to what we feel is the majority of people. This is just a questimate and nobody has stated that this is FACT but rather an indication that indeed the majority dose not like this update. Yes, not 100% but I feel its a good guess.

AND...how do you know how many people dont have there zone chat on???? I dont see anything that implies this one way or the other.

First, i said "many people" this was generalized terminology and did not stipulate one way or the other. I only have my own experience to go on which includes how other people i know play the game. Second, your saying the majority based on the limited exposure you have had to other players insight on the game. Relying on a forums and zone chat, that operates much like the forums, for your "majority" insight is just ludacris. a person is more likely to put their opinion on forums online when they have a bad experience. people who dont have a bad experience continue to play the game cause they like it. So, it is important to understand that forums are always going to lean toward the negative side. moreover, zos other sources of information include but not limited to guild meetings, forums (on multiple sites), /feedback, /bug, live streams, posted videos and many more i am sure im missing. As for an opinon from my experience...I do not rely on the forums and zone chat to form my thoughts on majority player opinion. I obviously have my 5 guilds that I am a part of. also, my main guild has close ties with 5 other guilds that are located on multiple factions. there is a lot of bleed over from all guilds into each other. so, my exposure to player base opinions are varied and cross faction. ofcourse there is my rather large individual friends list. also, my main guild meets with zos, so we gather information from guild members about their feedback for zos. I have been in the game since beta and have been on the PTS for every major update constatly dueling and getting feedback from players on that server. Based on all that and my own experience playing the game I find that more often than not players understand there will be a bit of a learning curve and testing to get the builds right again, but ultimately will make the game better. I ofcourse do not think this constitutes the majority mainly because there is know way of ever knowing that. That is also not to say that I have not run into people that dont like it. I have run into those people just not as often. Overall, i will take my experience and the feedback I here over the yelling in the forums or zone chat any day. .

So Im going to break this down for you, your guild that meets with zenimax is obviously part of the problem, unless they didnt take your advice, in that case the point in moot and just proves zenimax doesnt listen to its players/customer base.

"Relying on a forums and zone chat, that operates much like the forums, for your "majority" insight is just ludacris"

- I dont see why, not only is zone chat an open forum whether for trolls or actual concerned players this allows you to take opinions from many varied sources that dont include your esteemed "guild that talks with zenimax". The normal players, and the forums are an outlet for people that are so outraged that they feel something needs to be said about the state of the game, and that can also go in the other direction, although, Ive seen very rare positive forum posts.

" I have been in the game since beta and have been on the PTS for every major update constatly dueling and getting feedback from players on that server. Based on all that and my own experience playing the game I find that more often than not players understand there will be a bit of a learning curve and testing to get the builds right again"

- I have been around since BETA and have been part of the PTS for these "major patches" as well, and I am on a totally different wavelength from any of your posts on these forums. There have been many great constructive posts for better change in the game that would effect every player positively in the long run, @Personofsecrets to name one being very postive and vocal for changes that help the game rather than hinder the player base. All ignored. Tweaking builds and changing different mechanics is a given with any major patch in any MMO, however, a total overhaul with blanket nerfs that effect every player in every playstyle as well as negatively effecting a major role within any MMO structure is not what I call tweaking builds or a learning curve, its a complete restructure of the game, in a negative way. And after over a year an a half of release 3 major overhauls of game mechanics, bringing negative publicity and major exodus' from the game, I think its time to look at other options as far as "fixing" the game.

"That is also not to say that I have not run into people that dont like it. I have run into those people just not as often. Overall, i will take my experience and the feedback I here over the yelling in the forums or zone chat any day.".

Tholian1 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Blade_07 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

nobertpaulb16_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Blade_07 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

I disagree with this. Keep up the work zos. Also, they did listen to a lot of feedback. In fact, they listened to a ton. Just cause they stayed with things you don't like doesn't mean they didn't listen.

Hmm...so not giving what customers want is a good thing? I do realize that only listening to a small group of people is not good at all but please listen to the majority for crying out loud!!!

why is this majority nonsense keep coming up. do you have numbers on how many people play the game? do you get all of the feedback that zos gets? does your majority argument come strictly from looking at these forums? please explain how you have come to the conclusion that you know what the majority is. based on my experiences and many people i know we like the changes. it hurts but we adapt to it in what we believe to be better overall. I do not, however, think that the many players I talk to are the majority. just like these forums, the players i knoware a very small part of the player base. You have no idea what the majority is. people throw that out there like they have all the information. you dont. and really think about it from a business perspective. does it make sense to cater to the minority? that aside, there is no way any of us can really know what the majority is. (unless of course you assume that zos operates like a logical business and ops for going for more money over less. but that is just one opinion.)

All you have to do is open up zone chat and ask a general question there about the changes.

The responses you get there mirror the posts here. Especially if you are talking to VR12s and below

zone chat. thats your fall back. many people dont even have their zone chat on.

Your right in one respect and that is that we really have no way to know for sure who the majority really is on this topic. All we have is what we see on the forums and whats said in zone chat in game. I think its the best way we have of coming close to what we feel is the majority of people. This is just a questimate and nobody has stated that this is FACT but rather an indication that indeed the majority dose not like this update. Yes, not 100% but I feel its a good guess.

AND...how do you know how many people dont have there zone chat on???? I dont see anything that implies this one way or the other.

First, i said "many people" this was generalized terminology and did not stipulate one way or the other. I only have my own experience to go on which includes how other people i know play the game. Second, your saying the majority based on the limited exposure you have had to other players insight on the game. Relying on a forums and zone chat, that operates much like the forums, for your "majority" insight is just ludacris. a person is more likely to put their opinion on forums online when they have a bad experience. people who dont have a bad experience continue to play the game cause they like it. So, it is important to understand that forums are always going to lean toward the negative side. moreover, zos other sources of information include but not limited to guild meetings, forums (on multiple sites), /feedback, /bug, live streams, posted videos and many more i am sure im missing. As for an opinon from my experience...I do not rely on the forums and zone chat to form my thoughts on majority player opinion. I obviously have my 5 guilds that I am a part of. also, my main guild has close ties with 5 other guilds that are located on multiple factions. there is a lot of bleed over from all guilds into each other. so, my exposure to player base opinions are varied and cross faction. ofcourse there is my rather large individual friends list. also, my main guild meets with zos, so we gather information from guild members about their feedback for zos. I have been in the game since beta and have been on the PTS for every major update constatly dueling and getting feedback from players on that server. Based on all that and my own experience playing the game I find that more often than not players understand there will be a bit of a learning curve and testing to get the builds right again, but ultimately will make the game better. I ofcourse do not think this constitutes the majority mainly because there is know way of ever knowing that. That is also not to say that I have not run into people that dont like it. I have run into those people just not as often. Overall, i will take my experience and the feedback I here over the yelling in the forums or zone chat any day. .

So if I am not in the right guild, then I am not part of the player base that ZoS considers important. Thanks for the info.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Sensesfail13 , there isn't much discussion to be had with @bowmanz607 .

@bowmanz607 and I discussed tanks a bit in a PTS thread and, for the 1000 + hours of experience they have in ESO, they made a comment about how tanks have "infinite stamina" and how tanks fulfill their roles duties by just holding block. These are sophomoric views about tanking and not what I would expect to come from someone that is knowledgeable about the role.

Tell us @bowmanz607 , can you site a study to show what you think about negative feedback being more vocal than positive feedback to be true. If you can do such a thing, then can you indicate how the ESO forums falls under the scope of that study and, furthermore, how the opinions of those who don't like the nerf are invalidated just because there may be a few more people that like the nerf? Can you prove those things or are you going to continue insinuating that the other side can't prove their side of the story?

Perhaps you are citing the developers in the idea that there is a 50/50 split on the nerf. Well, the developers stated how they get their feedback and there is all of the reason to believe that the 50% for are not representative of the players who are affected by the nerf. You even claim to be part of a guild that has guild talks. A guild that gathers information from all of it's members, such as yourself, and informs the developers. Yet, when you hold such caricature views of tanking, then how can we expect guild talks that you have been a part of to be representative of an opinion that is healthy for tanking?

When it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what the majority wants. This choice made with this games development isn't based on a democracy. Because it isn't a democracy, then we might find this nerf being reverted. If the number of people who subscribe in the future is less than the number people that subscribed pre-nerf, then someone will be accountable for that revenue loss and for doing what they can to remedy the situation.

I have read your responses and see s9me well thought out responses and much appreciate it. I understand that my experiences are not the end all be all in this game. I would encourage all of you to see the same thing and understand what I am saying. I think that this type of discussion is what makes the community grow and personally enlightens me on what other players have experienced. I appreciate well thought out responses. I do not like the typical nonesense that gets yelled out in responce. I like to see these views and respect them however, I also ask for the same. That siad. I am on my phone right now and would prefer a keyboard for my respose. I would like 24 hours to respond to the above comments. Thank you for well reasoned counter points but I have some of my own. Again give me 24 hours. Thanks!

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]