Junglejim82 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

For the sake of clarity can we differentiate between combat data and add ons please.

Combat data - damage and healing numbers, something to illustrate a critical hit and a stun. a simple crit or stun on screen as shown in the link I provided above. Buff or debuff indicators not fussed about timers to me remembering to refresh is on players

Add ons - dodge now , block now , execute now , rebuff now etc to me these are cheats and have no place in game . Shard finders etc meh I don't mind people google everything now anyway

They're all considered add-ons; the difference is add-ons that provide information, and add-ons that provide instruction.

Yeah I'm aware of that in this game all are add ons but some people aren't aware that all that's being discussed is sct and leaving hyperbolic posts like the one showing a wow screenshot . The combat data I listed is usually standard mmo fare and a surprising ommision. No one is suggesting we implement all known PC add-ons into eso as standard that's all . It's detracting from the issue at hand which is some minor u.I improvements can make a huge difference to alot of people

You're missing it.
Anything that adds on to the data info on the screen is an add-on. Everything even SCT is an add-on

What you consider an improvement is actually a drastic change in information which changes how people play the game. This is a personal preference which on PC is optional if a user so desires to create or grab add-ons. If ZOS implements anything into the screen regardless of what anyone's previous experiences have been in "any" other game it's "adding on" to the UI.

The UI is the game and details how the buttons we press to control our characters.
Tool tips explain if pressed what happens and how it may affect a target.

Add-ons give additional calculated info from the two sentences above:
The "added" information and "SCT" are additions to a UI which are all what are being addressed by the OP as not desired. I agree with the OP but others don't. That's fine but let's all understand that those elements are all "add-ons"

Edit: lots of typo's

Yes I've already stated in this game all are add ons so to re phrase for eso players let's keep the discussion about optional sct. Optional won't drastically change how anyone with it toggled off plays it's business as usual. It will drastically change how those desiring it play though and for those it's an improvement. There aren't scorecards people won't be kicked for poor dps etc so I don't see any negative impact on those not desiring it as it'll be off. Just like the optional health bars that I keep toggled on that others don't

Arato wrote: »

I challenge Mr. Lambert to share with us the % of players in cyrodiil who have the "show alliance symbols" and "show enemy health bars" "options" off.

tinythinker wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

Mighty_oakk wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

What sorcery is this exactly? A new and improved u.i ? With combat data ? Perhaps even text chat ? This excites me I need those numbers I'm sure I'm not the only one . Would seriously improve this game

I'd re sub if they even said they were planning on adding text and combat data a year from now.

Is there more info on this possible UI improvement anywhere?

Mat Firor have discussed about this in the Quake Qon presentation.

I totally agree with you @lordrichter I would have prefered the game would not allow addons wich would have left everyone equal, the most skilled players being the one most attentive to the environement, clues, and combat animation and having the correct reflex.
But I also know that the players like you and me, are probably not the majority. Too much players enjoy to have a interface like WOW. So I gave up the fight and stop to argue.

However, I'll defend theeth and claws, my style of gameplay, and trying to prove that you can be a good, competent and maybe even competitive players without addons (or heavy UI)

Might be fun to have an add-on disabled Cyrodiil campaign. If you had to rely all of the time on the health bar you could still have a sense of when someone is in execute range and if you are wrong that's just a risk.

Arato wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Meh. Bad analogy.

It would be more fitting if one player wanted to play the game where the Joker and all 2 cards were considered Aces while the other one did not. That is more in line with how the add-on, UI, SCT issue looks from my perspective. I don't want ZOS to take out the Aces, but I would rather play poker with 4 Aces instead of 10. I don't want to play the game where you get to have 10 Aces and I only get 4 because "options are good".

Still, bad analogy.

It's not in reference to SCT. I'm fine with SCT because SCT does not give a competitive advantage, and thus it actually is an option. SCT is more comparable to whether you want to wear a black colored swimsuit or a blue colored swimsuit of the same cut and material. Your times will be the same but you might like the look of one better. That's like show/hide helmet.

I'm referring to "options" that confer gameplay advantage such as increased visibility of enemies in PVP.(nameplates in particular)

Also the swimsuits thing is a real world thing. That actually happened. In 2008 and 2009 when the fastskin suits were legal people using them shattered world records. FINA did impose a ban on the suits in 2010 for competitive events because it was giving an advantage.

mrskinskull wrote: »

Carde wrote: »

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

Yeah I don't get it. Can you be a great player without any of that information? Sure can. But who the hell can really argue that wanting to know how long a buff/debuff will last is a crutch? That's just ridiculous.

I've heard that bots can play the entire game for you.

You may want to look into the complete and utter avoidance of actually playing the game with human hands,

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

I'll give you an analogy/example:

In olympic swimming there's regulations on the types of suits they can use, there might be better suits out there made of advanced materials that result in less drag, but they're not allowed. While maybe some people would want the faster times these suits would allow them, everyone else is in the same boat so competition is fair. Now that ban gets lifted, and the new advanced suits are considered an OPTION. Now those teams with the expensive suits are setting new Olympic Records and leaving people using the old suits in the dust. Other teams feel that they must wear the OPTIONAL new suits in order to remain competitive, and that includes people who might have preferred the old suits for comfort or they're more used to it (or really can't afford it, the full body suits are $600 a pop), but they feel they'd be handicapping themselves by not using the new suits, whether they personally liked them or not.

All Olympic swimmers then used the new fastskin suits if they wanted to be competitive.

the FINA (the organization that regulates competitive swimming) looked at this advantage and realized the ban was for the better and re-banned these suits, putting everyone back on an even field as far as their suits go.

In case you're having trouble connecting the dots. Giving an OPTION that confers an advantage leads to everyone feeling forced to turn that option on, regardless of personal preference. While people may wish they had the advantages from this "option" when it's disabled, at least everyone's on an even field.

A good and bad analogy.

Here is why. These swimming suits were expensive, some people legitimately didn't have access to them because of that. If the suits were freeand widely available to every swimmer you could bet your life savings that every competitor would use it and it would be an even playing field.

Here is my analogy in response.

Someone joins a poker tournament in hopes of winning a lot of money, but here's the kicker (pun intended), they don't like aces. No legitimate reason really, they just don't like aces.

So they fold every hand with an ace throughout the tournament. Their choice to do so is just that, their choice.

Let's say they make it really deep into this tournament, they make it to heads up. They are obviously a skilled player, but they take second place when their opponent gets pocket aces and it holds up in an all in situation.

Does this person now get to complain and try to force everyone to remove aces from the deck? Of course not, it was their choice to play that way in the first place.

ZoS released a game without aces, now they realized their mistake and are putting them back in the deck. You can play with or without them but you don't get to claim unfair advantage when it was available to you but you chose not to use them.

mrskinskull wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

I'll give you an analogy/example:

In olympic swimming there's regulations on the types of suits they can use, there might be better suits out there made of advanced materials that result in less drag, but they're not allowed. While maybe some people would want the faster times these suits would allow them, everyone else is in the same boat so competition is fair. Now that ban gets lifted, and the new advanced suits are considered an OPTION. Now those teams with the expensive suits are setting new Olympic Records and leaving people using the old suits in the dust. Other teams feel that they must wear the OPTIONAL new suits in order to remain competitive, and that includes people who might have preferred the old suits for comfort or they're more used to it (or really can't afford it, the full body suits are $600 a pop), but they feel they'd be handicapping themselves by not using the new suits, whether they personally liked them or not.

All Olympic swimmers then used the new fastskin suits if they wanted to be competitive.

the FINA (the organization that regulates competitive swimming) looked at this advantage and realized the ban was for the better and re-banned these suits, putting everyone back on an even field as far as their suits go.

In case you're having trouble connecting the dots. Giving an OPTION that confers an advantage leads to everyone feeling forced to turn that option on, regardless of personal preference. While people may wish they had the advantages from this "option" when it's disabled, at least everyone's on an even field.

Yeah. Perfectly stated.

I love how in games that try to balance PvP and pve, any slight change can butterfly effect the other.

In pve, I would be howling for these changes, many sound helpful if they could be toggled off.
But we will all be forced to have all of this stuff locked on , in PvP just to stay competitive.
Maybe I'll just PvP less?
I should not be able to confuse a screen shot of elite dangerous with ESO.

Arato wrote: »

mrskinskull wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

I'll give you an analogy/example:

In olympic swimming there's regulations on the types of suits they can use, there might be better suits out there made of advanced materials that result in less drag, but they're not allowed. While maybe some people would want the faster times these suits would allow them, everyone else is in the same boat so competition is fair. Now that ban gets lifted, and the new advanced suits are considered an OPTION. Now those teams with the expensive suits are setting new Olympic Records and leaving people using the old suits in the dust. Other teams feel that they must wear the OPTIONAL new suits in order to remain competitive, and that includes people who might have preferred the old suits for comfort or they're more used to it (or really can't afford it, the full body suits are $600 a pop), but they feel they'd be handicapping themselves by not using the new suits, whether they personally liked them or not.

All Olympic swimmers then used the new fastskin suits if they wanted to be competitive.

the FINA (the organization that regulates competitive swimming) looked at this advantage and realized the ban was for the better and re-banned these suits, putting everyone back on an even field as far as their suits go.

In case you're having trouble connecting the dots. Giving an OPTION that confers an advantage leads to everyone feeling forced to turn that option on, regardless of personal preference. While people may wish they had the advantages from this "option" when it's disabled, at least everyone's on an even field.

Yeah. Perfectly stated.

I love how in games that try to balance PvP and pve, any slight change can butterfly effect the other.

In pve, I would be howling for these changes, many sound helpful if they could be toggled off.
But we will all be forced to have all of this stuff locked on , in PvP just to stay competitive.
Maybe I'll just PvP less?
I should not be able to confuse a screen shot of elite dangerous with ESO.

If nameplates were enabled for PVE only? I wouldn't have much of a problem with it. You could turn it off without making yourself disadvantaged.

In PVP, It's an advantage, they'll see you coming around a corner because you have this long RP appropriate Argonian name while you won't see them until they're right on top of you, and if you're in a confusing pitched battle with enemies and friends scattered everywhere they'll know you're an enemy before you mouse over them to see they're an enemy, they get the advantage there too.

Eriquito3 wrote: »

Well if you are walking out of stealth.... anyone is going to see you around the corner.... the namplate is not what will make you visable.....

Nameplates, ui options, text chat should be toggeled by the player and not by what zone they happen to walk in.

Arato wrote: »

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

I'll give you an analogy/example:

In olympic swimming there's regulations on the types of suits they can use, there might be better suits out there made of advanced materials that result in less drag, but they're not allowed. While maybe some people would want the faster times these suits would allow them, everyone else is in the same boat so competition is fair. Now that ban gets lifted, and the new advanced suits are considered an OPTION. Now those teams with the expensive suits are setting new Olympic Records and leaving people using the old suits in the dust. Other teams feel that they must wear the OPTIONAL new suits in order to remain competitive, and that includes people who might have preferred the old suits for comfort or they're more used to it (or really can't afford it, the full body suits are $600 a pop), but they feel they'd be handicapping themselves by not using the new suits, whether they personally liked them or not.

All Olympic swimmers then used the new fastskin suits if they wanted to be competitive.

the FINA (the organization that regulates competitive swimming) looked at this advantage and realized the ban was for the better and re-banned these suits, putting everyone back on an even field as far as their suits go.

In case you're having trouble connecting the dots. Giving an OPTION that confers an advantage leads to everyone feeling forced to turn that option on, regardless of personal preference. While people may wish they had the advantages from this "option" when it's disabled, at least everyone's on an even field.

Tholian1 wrote: »

Why are nameplates such a big deal? I mean... Why the demand for them? Just curious.

Arato wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Why are nameplates such a big deal? I mean... Why the demand for them? Just curious.

Because of the gameplay advantage it confers, it makes it easier to tell friend from foe without targeting a person directly. People don't see it as an advantage because it's the default "option" in most MMO's, instead here where it's not available they feel disadvantaged. But the only time anyone turns off floating nameplates in games where it's available is when they turn the entire UI off to take screenshots. Otherwise it's on for virtually 100% of the people who play the game because it would be a handicap to disable it.

So you get something that looks like this:



I could disable it if I wanted sure. It's an "option" afterall, but then I wouldn't know that blob was enemies until It was too late and I was dead., because they'd have their "option" turned on because they're not dumb enough to play with a handicap.

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

I find it funny that people link the worst compilations of UI's from WoW to make a point. Biased much? There are elegant and clean UI's, but there are also cluttered mess of them. It all falls down to PERSONAL preference, and having options for customization and a more open API, is not going to make the game worse.

Carde wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Why are nameplates such a big deal? I mean... Why the demand for them? Just curious.

Because of the gameplay advantage it confers, it makes it easier to tell friend from foe without targeting a person directly. People don't see it as an advantage because it's the default "option" in most MMO's, instead here where it's not available they feel disadvantaged. But the only time anyone turns off floating nameplates in games where it's available is when they turn the entire UI off to take screenshots. Otherwise it's on for virtually 100% of the people who play the game because it would be a handicap to disable it.

So you get something that looks like this:



I could disable it if I wanted sure. It's an "option" afterall, but then I wouldn't know that blob was enemies until It was too late and I was dead., because they'd have their "option" turned on because they're not dumb enough to play with a handicap.

How is that any different than a giant blob of red shield icons over their heads? At least with the screenshot above I can see their *** names. How is spotting a friend or respected/hated enemy from 30 feet away without having to point your cursor at them a bad thing?

You do know that in most MMOs with nameplates, the actual nameplate doesn't trigger and appear on the screen until the character's entire body is around a corner, right? The only exception I can really think of is WoW, where you can see the nameplates up close through walls (as in you're both standing right on the other side of the wall from each other, it'll show).