Concerns regarding the NEW UI being currently develloped

mabiron92

Sunver wrote: »

Looks cute:



Now, imagine that in ESO. BTW: not my character, just found it over the Net.

Never looked like that on mine, someone was obviously trying to exaggerate their opinion.

Arato

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

I'll give you an analogy/example:

In olympic swimming there's regulations on the types of suits they can use, there might be better suits out there made of advanced materials that result in less drag, but they're not allowed. While maybe some people would want the faster times these suits would allow them, everyone else is in the same boat so competition is fair. Now that ban gets lifted, and the new advanced suits are considered an OPTION. Now those teams with the expensive suits are setting new Olympic Records and leaving people using the old suits in the dust. Other teams feel that they must wear the OPTIONAL new suits in order to remain competitive, and that includes people who might have preferred the old suits for comfort or they're more used to it (or really can't afford it, the full body suits are $600 a pop), but they feel they'd be handicapping themselves by not using the new suits, whether they personally liked them or not.

All Olympic swimmers then used the new fastskin suits if they wanted to be competitive.

the FINA (the organization that regulates competitive swimming) looked at this advantage and realized the ban was for the better and re-banned these suits, putting everyone back on an even field as far as their suits go.

In case you're having trouble connecting the dots. Giving an OPTION that confers an advantage leads to everyone feeling forced to turn that option on, regardless of personal preference. While people may wish they had the advantages from this "option" when it's disabled, at least everyone's on an even field.

Carde

mabiron92 wrote: »

Sunver wrote: »

Looks cute:



Now, imagine that in ESO. BTW: not my character, just found it over the Net.

Never looked like that on mine, someone was obviously trying to exaggerate their opinion.

Lol, having used a few of the addons (yes, those are addons not the default UI that these people are fighting against) myself, I can tell you that of course they look like that when all of their settings menus are open and their configuration states are toggled on. Your screen will never look anything like that unless you like walking around with all of your HUDs unlocked and in the "move where you want" setting.

Enodoc

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

I don't think buff/debuff trackers and SCT would be considered among the "cheating" elements. They just provide information. It's UI elements that provide instruction that would lead to an unfair advantage and be considered cheating.

Flameheart

Pallmor wrote: »

Agreed. I don't want my fantasy MMO screen looking like a control panel on the Enterprise.

This is why I abhor most MMO's:

Seems as if a galaxy class ship is a tad easier to manoeuvre :-)

Junglejim82

https://youtu.be/pbIOMkm_F5U

Once again I leave this here take a few seconds to look and see actual mmo gameplay on a last gen console with all the data asked for and a clean u.I. particularly you @mrskinskull hardly a coockpit hud wouldn't you agree or do you feel this is too intrusive? Certainly nothing like the exaggerated screen shot from wow at the top of the page

Edit . Fighter pilots cabin is apparently a naughty word

NewBlacksmurf

Arato wrote: »

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

I'll give you an analogy/example:

In olympic swimming there's regulations on the types of suits they can use, there might be better suits out there made of advanced materials that result in less drag, but they're not allowed. While maybe some people would want the faster times these suits would allow them, everyone else is in the same boat so competition is fair. Now that ban gets lifted, and the new advanced suits are considered an OPTION. Now those teams with the expensive suits are setting new Olympic Records and leaving people using the old suits in the dust. Other teams feel that they must wear the OPTIONAL new suits in order to remain competitive, and that includes people who might have preferred the old suits for comfort or they're more used to it (or really can't afford it, the full body suits are $600 a pop), but they feel they'd be handicapping themselves by not using the new suits, whether they personally liked them or not.

All Olympic swimmers then used the new fastskin suits if they wanted to be competitive.

the FINA (the organization that regulates competitive swimming) looked at this advantage and realized the ban was for the better and re-banned these suits, putting everyone back on an even field as far as their suits go.

In case you're having trouble connecting the dots. Giving an OPTION that confers an advantage leads to everyone feeling forced to turn that option on, regardless of personal preference. While people may wish they had the advantages from this "option" when it's disabled, at least everyone's on an even field.

Well explained.

Eshelmen

This type of thread is always a good one, but it's the context from posters that follows afterwards that makes these type of threads get either shut down or swiped away as a non issue.

OP makes an amazing point.
Every one knows at this point that some players like loads of UI on screen and some like as minimal UI as possible. I'm a fan of both tbh, each has a time and place of need in my personal play style and circumstance.

As long as these two styles are optional, there should be no issue. Choices are beautiful!


We can bicker, discuss, argue about why your screen looks better or why my screen does. It doesn't matter.

What matters is having options that can be toggled on or off.

Great post OP.

Rosveen

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

Did you write this post for the sole purpose of dissing younger gamers? Because there's no rhyme or reason to your argument. People who oppose combat addons say the exact opposite of what you claim: that using addons is laziness and a substitute for lack of skill (alsp cheating, but that's just misinformation on their part). Some of them are also loyal to the traditional Elder Scrolls experience, which means they've been playing TES games for at least a decade. Meanwhile, the "gimme generation", as some like to call it, wants information available quickly and easily, which addons help with.

Junglejim82

For the sake of clarity can we differentiate between combat data and add ons please.

Combat data - damage and healing numbers, something to illustrate a critical hit and a stun. a simple crit or stun on screen as shown in the link I provided above. Buff or debuff indicators not fussed about timers to me remembering to refresh is on players

Add ons - dodge now , block now , execute now , rebuff now etc to me these are cheats and have no place in game . Shard finders etc meh I don't mind people google everything now anyway

Enodoc

Junglejim82 wrote: »

For the sake of clarity can we differentiate between combat data and add ons please.

Combat data - damage and healing numbers, something to illustrate a critical hit and a stun. a simple crit or stun on screen as shown in the link I provided above. Buff or debuff indicators not fussed about timers to me remembering to refresh is on players

Add ons - dodge now , block now , execute now , rebuff now etc to me these are cheats and have no place in game . Shard finders etc meh I don't mind people google everything now anyway

They're all considered add-ons; the difference is add-ons that provide information, and add-ons that provide instruction.

NewBlacksmurf

Junglejim82 wrote: »

For the sake of clarity can we differentiate between combat data and add ons please.

Combat data - damage and healing numbers, something to illustrate a critical hit and a stun. a simple crit or stun on screen as shown in the link I provided above. Buff or debuff indicators not fussed about timers to me remembering to refresh is on players

Add ons - dodge now , block now , execute now , rebuff now etc to me these are cheats and have no place in game . Shard finders etc meh I don't mind people google everything now anyway

Personally the two are the topic of discussion and not one being lesser than the other.
I've seen a lot of opinions laid out where suggestions are that one is less impactful than the other but in regards to an even playing experience (no advantage) both have the same impact.

It's not that the ideas to have one or the other are wrong but it's a reality that having either or just one definitely change how people play the game and do offer a player advantage.

I think the OP is saying that she has stopped fighting the argument I laid out above and is now asking to allow her 100% optional on both so she and others can play and experience the game as it was originally intended.
This drives developers to balance content so that it's something that is playable with no added benefits or advantages to having add-ons of any kind. It keeps the game looking like TES vs what many are asking which is to change this to look and play like a MMO like WoW, etc.

Those add-ons have a greater impact on the players experiences and some of us don't want another MMO looking game. We like playing what looks like TES on a MMO server.

The difference is MMO = server type and we want this to stay.
We don't want MMO= UI type

Junglejim82

Enodoc wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

For the sake of clarity can we differentiate between combat data and add ons please.

Combat data - damage and healing numbers, something to illustrate a critical hit and a stun. a simple crit or stun on screen as shown in the link I provided above. Buff or debuff indicators not fussed about timers to me remembering to refresh is on players

Add ons - dodge now , block now , execute now , rebuff now etc to me these are cheats and have no place in game . Shard finders etc meh I don't mind people google everything now anyway

They're all considered add-ons; the difference is add-ons that provide information, and add-ons that provide instruction.

Yeah I'm aware of that in this game all are add ons but some people aren't aware that all that's being discussed is sct and leaving hyperbolic posts like the one showing a wow screenshot . The combat data I listed is usually standard mmo fare and a surprising ommision. No one is suggesting we implement all known PC add-ons into eso as standard that's all . It's detracting from the issue at hand which is some minor u.I improvements can make a huge difference to alot of people

NewBlacksmurf

Junglejim82 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

For the sake of clarity can we differentiate between combat data and add ons please.

Combat data - damage and healing numbers, something to illustrate a critical hit and a stun. a simple crit or stun on screen as shown in the link I provided above. Buff or debuff indicators not fussed about timers to me remembering to refresh is on players

Add ons - dodge now , block now , execute now , rebuff now etc to me these are cheats and have no place in game . Shard finders etc meh I don't mind people google everything now anyway

They're all considered add-ons; the difference is add-ons that provide information, and add-ons that provide instruction.

Yeah I'm aware of that in this game all are add ons but some people aren't aware that all that's being discussed is sct and leaving hyperbolic posts like the one showing a wow screenshot . The combat data I listed is usually standard mmo fare and a surprising ommision. No one is suggesting we implement all known PC add-ons into eso as standard that's all . It's detracting from the issue at hand which is some minor u.I improvements can make a huge difference to alot of people

You're missing it.
Anything that adds on to the data info on the screen is an add-on. Everything even SCT is an add-on

What you consider an improvement is actually a drastic change in information which changes how people play the game. This is a personal preference which on PC is optional if a user so desires to create or grab add-ons. If ZOS implements anything into the screen regardless of what anyone's previous experiences have been in "any" other game it's "adding on" to the UI.

The UI is the game and details how the buttons we press to control our characters.
Tool tips explain if pressed what happens and how it may affect a target.

Add-ons give additional calculated info from the two sentences above:
The "added" information and "SCT" are additions to a UI which are all what are being addressed by the OP as not desired. I agree with the OP but others don't. That's fine but let's all understand that those elements are all "add-ons"

Edit: lots of typo's

Enodoc

Junglejim82 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

For the sake of clarity can we differentiate between combat data and add ons please.

Combat data - damage and healing numbers, something to illustrate a critical hit and a stun. a simple crit or stun on screen as shown in the link I provided above. Buff or debuff indicators not fussed about timers to me remembering to refresh is on players

Add ons - dodge now , block now , execute now , rebuff now etc to me these are cheats and have no place in game . Shard finders etc meh I don't mind people google everything now anyway

They're all considered add-ons; the difference is add-ons that provide information, and add-ons that provide instruction.

Yeah I'm aware of that in this game all are add ons but some people aren't aware that all that's being discussed is sct and leaving hyperbolic posts like the one showing a wow screenshot . The combat data I listed is usually standard mmo fare and a surprising ommision. No one is suggesting we implement all known PC add-ons into eso as standard that's all . It's detracting from the issue at hand which is some minor u.I improvements can make a huge difference to alot of people

Aye true. There are comments here though about what API functions should be available for add-ons at all, and a worry that ZOS may start introducing some more functions for API. Then, even if they are technically optional, some players may feel forced to use these UI features so they are not at a disadvantage. What would be better, in some people's view, would be for ZOS to remove API functions that allow for such advantages based on instruction, but still keep up the opportunity to provide information.

Rosveen

Junglejim82 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

For the sake of clarity can we differentiate between combat data and add ons please.

Combat data - damage and healing numbers, something to illustrate a critical hit and a stun. a simple crit or stun on screen as shown in the link I provided above. Buff or debuff indicators not fussed about timers to me remembering to refresh is on players

Add ons - dodge now , block now , execute now , rebuff now etc to me these are cheats and have no place in game . Shard finders etc meh I don't mind people google everything now anyway

They're all considered add-ons; the difference is add-ons that provide information, and add-ons that provide instruction.

Yeah I'm aware of that in this game all are add ons but some people aren't aware that all that's being discussed is sct and leaving hyperbolic posts like the one showing a wow screenshot . The combat data I listed is usually standard mmo fare and a surprising ommision. No one is suggesting we implement all known PC add-ons into eso as standard that's all . It's detracting from the issue at hand which is some minor u.I improvements can make a huge difference to alot of people

You will only obfuscate the matter more if you call only one of them addons, because they both are and that's how most of us understand the term.

Psychobunni

Arato wrote: »

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

I'll give you an analogy/example:

In olympic swimming there's regulations on the types of suits they can use, there might be better suits out there made of advanced materials that result in less drag, but they're not allowed. While maybe some people would want the faster times these suits would allow them, everyone else is in the same boat so competition is fair. Now that ban gets lifted, and the new advanced suits are considered an OPTION. Now those teams with the expensive suits are setting new Olympic Records and leaving people using the old suits in the dust. Other teams feel that they must wear the OPTIONAL new suits in order to remain competitive, and that includes people who might have preferred the old suits for comfort or they're more used to it (or really can't afford it, the full body suits are $600 a pop), but they feel they'd be handicapping themselves by not using the new suits, whether they personally liked them or not.

All Olympic swimmers then used the new fastskin suits if they wanted to be competitive.

the FINA (the organization that regulates competitive swimming) looked at this advantage and realized the ban was for the better and re-banned these suits, putting everyone back on an even field as far as their suits go.

In case you're having trouble connecting the dots. Giving an OPTION that confers an advantage leads to everyone feeling forced to turn that option on, regardless of personal preference. While people may wish they had the advantages from this "option" when it's disabled, at least everyone's on an even field.

Just one problem, in this case the Olympics are supplying the suits. So everyone can afford them and everyone is given the same even ground opportunities. If someone chooses they are more comfortable with less than, that is their choice. But everyone else shouldn't have to suffer with less because some don't want to accept the free suits.

wraith808

Psychobunni wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

I'll give you an analogy/example:

In olympic swimming there's regulations on the types of suits they can use, there might be better suits out there made of advanced materials that result in less drag, but they're not allowed. While maybe some people would want the faster times these suits would allow them, everyone else is in the same boat so competition is fair. Now that ban gets lifted, and the new advanced suits are considered an OPTION. Now those teams with the expensive suits are setting new Olympic Records and leaving people using the old suits in the dust. Other teams feel that they must wear the OPTIONAL new suits in order to remain competitive, and that includes people who might have preferred the old suits for comfort or they're more used to it (or really can't afford it, the full body suits are $600 a pop), but they feel they'd be handicapping themselves by not using the new suits, whether they personally liked them or not.

All Olympic swimmers then used the new fastskin suits if they wanted to be competitive.

the FINA (the organization that regulates competitive swimming) looked at this advantage and realized the ban was for the better and re-banned these suits, putting everyone back on an even field as far as their suits go.

In case you're having trouble connecting the dots. Giving an OPTION that confers an advantage leads to everyone feeling forced to turn that option on, regardless of personal preference. While people may wish they had the advantages from this "option" when it's disabled, at least everyone's on an even field.

Just one problem, in this case the Olympics are supplying the suits. So everyone can afford them and everyone is given the same even ground opportunities. If someone chooses they are more comfortable with less than, that is their choice. But everyone else shouldn't have to suffer with less because some don't want to accept the free suits.

Had to give you an awesome for shutting that down. Didn't know the circumstances surrounding that. It sounds like the 3 point analogy that I used earlier.

Junglejim82

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

For the sake of clarity can we differentiate between combat data and add ons please.

Combat data - damage and healing numbers, something to illustrate a critical hit and a stun. a simple crit or stun on screen as shown in the link I provided above. Buff or debuff indicators not fussed about timers to me remembering to refresh is on players

Add ons - dodge now , block now , execute now , rebuff now etc to me these are cheats and have no place in game . Shard finders etc meh I don't mind people google everything now anyway

They're all considered add-ons; the difference is add-ons that provide information, and add-ons that provide instruction.

Yeah I'm aware of that in this game all are add ons but some people aren't aware that all that's being discussed is sct and leaving hyperbolic posts like the one showing a wow screenshot . The combat data I listed is usually standard mmo fare and a surprising ommision. No one is suggesting we implement all known PC add-ons into eso as standard that's all . It's detracting from the issue at hand which is some minor u.I improvements can make a huge difference to alot of people

You're missing it.
Anything that adds on to the data info on the screen is an add-on. Everything even SCT is an add-on

What you consider an improvement is actually a drastic change in information which changes how people play the game. This is a personal preference which on PC is optional if a user so desires to create or grab add-ons. If ZOS implements anything into the screen regardless of what anyone's previous experiences have been in "any" other game it's "adding on" to the UI.

The UI is the game and details how the buttons we press to control our characters.
Tool tips explain if pressed what happens and how it may affect a target.

Add-ons give additional calculated info from the two sentences above:
The "added" information and "SCT" are additions to a UI which are all what are being addressed by the OP as not desired. I agree with the OP but others don't. That's fine but let's all understand that those elements are all "add-ons"

Edit: lots of typo's

Yes I've already stated in this game all are add ons so to re phrase for eso players let's keep the discussion about optional sct. Optional won't drastically change how anyone with it toggled off plays it's business as usual. It will drastically change how those desiring it play though and for those it's an improvement. There aren't scorecards people won't be kicked for poor dps etc so I don't see any negative impact on those not desiring it as it'll be off. Just like the optional health bars that I keep toggled on that others don't

MrGrimey

You people are acting like sct isn't already "optional". Only difference now is that it will not require add ons.

New flash, this is a mmo and it really needs to start acting like it

Elsonso

Junglejim82 wrote: »

Add ons - dodge now , block now , execute now , rebuff now etc to me these are cheats and have no place in game

When the add-on provides information and the player needs to interpret the information and decide what is the most important thing to be doing, that is not cheating to me.

When the add-on tells the player, in real time, what they need to be doing and what things are important to be doing now, I consider that to be cheating. These add-ons seem to be required if someone has a Twitch stream, which makes the advantage they confer to the player even more obvious. EDIT: If these things are so important, they should be in the base game, turned on by default. They can be turned off by the PVE players.

I want to be clear that ZOS likely does not consider this to be cheating. Too many very popular streamers use these add-ons. Anyone at ZOS that seriously suggested banning people for using these add-ons will already be trussed up, gagged, and stored in the broom closet "for their own protection" until they recover from whatever ailment afflicts them.

I am somewhat tired of being told what to do by my software. Icon flashes, press it. Some timer expires, follow instructions on the screen. Need to counter an attack, follow instructions on the screen. In ESO PVP, there is no escaping these add-ons. No matter what I want, no matter how I want to play, other people using the add-ons do change the game for me. No options can fix that, unless I have the option to disable the add-ons being used by other players. That is an intriguing idea, but one we are unlikely to see.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I think the OP is saying that she has stopped fighting the argument I laid out above and is now asking to allow her 100% optional on both so she and others can play and experience the game as it was originally intended.
This drives developers to balance content so that it's something that is playable with no added benefits or advantages to having add-ons of any kind. It keeps the game looking like TES vs what many are asking which is to change this to look and play like a MMO like WoW, etc.

Those add-ons have a greater impact on the players experiences and some of us don't want another MMO looking game. We like playing what looks like TES on a MMO server.

The difference is MMO = server type and we want this to stay.
We don't want MMO= UI type

I have no idea what most of that says. It sounds important, but I am not getting the message.

Rune_Relic

Psychobunni wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I am actually a proponent of not having options for the PVP UI. Let the developers decide and everyone in the game, from the most experienced PVP player to the least experienced noob, gets the exact same on-screen information.

I will give that in PVP having more information can/will likely give an advantage. But to me this is like saying I want to be a race car driver and compete with others, BUT I want to do it without the instrument panel and on top of that, I want everyone else to do it without the instrument panel too.

The problem with that is in an MMO world the instrument panel may differ from car to car, but it's there. It's always been there and it is accepted as the standard. So for many players, they take a look at that dash and "what? no! where's my panel?"

While I do actually respect the desire of those anti-ui for a clean more solo game interface while playing MMO, I see that as a player having to take the hit for making that choice to have less information. Some of these addons mentioned in this thread are way overboard what ZOS even said they were looking to provide toggles for. ( Is there really an addon that says when to rolldodge or block?) I don't think their actual plans for the game will be as unbalancing as anything they do with our skills on a regular basis

and text chat for console @mrskinskull , I'm really sorry you feel as though you would be forced to use it. But having listened to zone chatter, ZOS would have to pay *me* to play console version without chat. Some of this harassment going on, with an admittance of no logs from ZOS, and no "apparent" monitoring going on...I almost expect legal problems to arise.

And while racing I don't look at the instrument panel unless there is an issue of some kind.
Mostly I am using my ears for engine revs and unsual noises, I am using my in built g-meter and experience to gauge if I am approaching the corner too fast and going to understeer under braking, or there's too much g on the rear at the moment to go full throttle, without inducing oversteer. I am using my eyes to decide the best line and avoid obstacles, or take opportunities to overtake.
You're not using the UI/HUD/Interface/dash at this point...you are relying on the experience and senses for the most part.

[edit: spelling is hard ]

gard

Knootewoot wrote: »

I don't care about new UI. Although I prefer the minimal UI, in PvP it just does not work.

I use FTC.

But what I am worried about is other UI mods like Combat cloud. They give to much information (like incoming projectiles, even when you haven't released a bow attack yet so flappy and dodgeroll can be done even before the skill is fired.

I tested this out with a bow hiding in sneak and in a bush. People walk by on horse or by foot. Ready snipe, but cancel attack. 80% of the players flapped wings, dodge rolled, bolt escape, got of horse blocking etc.

Will there be done something about these "cheat-on's" since it ruins PvP for any ranged caster/attacker.

@Knootewoot
The addons themselves are not intended by the authors for cheating.
If projectile information is being reported by combat cloud before the attack is released, that's obviously an api bug.
Have you opened a ticket to let someone know what's going on? Because just posting it in a forum won't cut it, if you really want things to change.

Violynne

I don't know how much of this UI will be changed, but here's my feedback:

-When selling to merchants, please reorganize weapons and armor into their own "block" on the list. It's annoying to have to scroll throughout the list to find items I need to sell. For example, two-handed axes are 3/4 down on the list whereas daggers are near the top.

-PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE put the Fence interaction as the FIRST OPTION when approaching, and place Sell as the second. I don't interact with them often, so I'm constantly forgetting to switch the tab, losing out on items I wanted to keep.

-Please allow us to lock items we do not want to sell or deconstruct. Of all the feedback, I'd be more than happy if this is the only one implemented. I've lost items I wanted to research because I didn't realize putting them in the bank also appeared on the deconstruction list.

-When looking at our achievement lists, please keep the "last viewed" bookmark. When hunting for skyshard locations, it's a bit irritating we have to constantly rescroll back to the area we're searching.

Thanks for reading.

gjmgamesub17_ESO

Arato wrote: »

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

I'll give you an analogy/example:

In olympic swimming there's regulations on the types of suits they can use, there might be better suits out there made of advanced materials that result in less drag, but they're not allowed. While maybe some people would want the faster times these suits would allow them, everyone else is in the same boat so competition is fair. Now that ban gets lifted, and the new advanced suits are considered an OPTION. Now those teams with the expensive suits are setting new Olympic Records and leaving people using the old suits in the dust. Other teams feel that they must wear the OPTIONAL new suits in order to remain competitive, and that includes people who might have preferred the old suits for comfort or they're more used to it (or really can't afford it, the full body suits are $600 a pop), but they feel they'd be handicapping themselves by not using the new suits, whether they personally liked them or not.

All Olympic swimmers then used the new fastskin suits if they wanted to be competitive.

the FINA (the organization that regulates competitive swimming) looked at this advantage and realized the ban was for the better and re-banned these suits, putting everyone back on an even field as far as their suits go.

In case you're having trouble connecting the dots. Giving an OPTION that confers an advantage leads to everyone feeling forced to turn that option on, regardless of personal preference. While people may wish they had the advantages from this "option" when it's disabled, at least everyone's on an even field.

A good and bad analogy.

Here is why. These swimming suits were expensive, some people legitimately didn't have access to them because of that. If the suits were freeand widely available to every swimmer you could bet your life savings that every competitor would use it and it would be an even playing field.

Here is my analogy in response.

Someone joins a poker tournament in hopes of winning a lot of money, but here's the kicker (pun intended), they don't like aces. No legitimate reason really, they just don't like aces.

So they fold every hand with an ace throughout the tournament. Their choice to do so is just that, their choice.

Let's say they make it really deep into this tournament, they make it to heads up. They are obviously a skilled player, but they take second place when their opponent gets pocket aces and it holds up in an all in situation.

Does this person now get to complain and try to force everyone to remove aces from the deck? Of course not, it was their choice to play that way in the first place.

ZoS released a game without aces, now they realized their mistake and are putting them back in the deck. You can play with or without them but you don't get to claim unfair advantage when it was available to you but you chose not to use them.

Elsonso

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

I'll give you an analogy/example:

In olympic swimming there's regulations on the types of suits they can use, there might be better suits out there made of advanced materials that result in less drag, but they're not allowed. While maybe some people would want the faster times these suits would allow them, everyone else is in the same boat so competition is fair. Now that ban gets lifted, and the new advanced suits are considered an OPTION. Now those teams with the expensive suits are setting new Olympic Records and leaving people using the old suits in the dust. Other teams feel that they must wear the OPTIONAL new suits in order to remain competitive, and that includes people who might have preferred the old suits for comfort or they're more used to it (or really can't afford it, the full body suits are $600 a pop), but they feel they'd be handicapping themselves by not using the new suits, whether they personally liked them or not.

All Olympic swimmers then used the new fastskin suits if they wanted to be competitive.

the FINA (the organization that regulates competitive swimming) looked at this advantage and realized the ban was for the better and re-banned these suits, putting everyone back on an even field as far as their suits go.

In case you're having trouble connecting the dots. Giving an OPTION that confers an advantage leads to everyone feeling forced to turn that option on, regardless of personal preference. While people may wish they had the advantages from this "option" when it's disabled, at least everyone's on an even field.

A good and bad analogy.

Here is why. These swimming suits were expensive, some people legitimately didn't have access to them because of that. If the suits were freeand widely available to every swimmer you could bet your life savings that every competitor would use it and it would be an even playing field.

Here is my analogy in response.

Someone joins a poker tournament in hopes of winning a lot of money, but here's the kicker (pun intended), they don't like aces. No legitimate reason really, they just don't like aces.

So they fold every hand with an ace throughout the tournament. Their choice to do so is just that, their choice.

Let's say they make it really deep into this tournament, they make it to heads up. They are obviously a skilled player, but they take second place when their opponent gets pocket aces and it holds up in an all in situation.

Does this person now get to complain and try to force everyone to remove aces from the deck? Of course not, it was their choice to play that way in the first place.

ZoS released a game without aces, now they realized their mistake and are putting them back in the deck. You can play with or without them but you don't get to claim unfair advantage when it was available to you but you chose not to use them.

Meh. Bad analogy.

It would be more fitting if one player wanted to play the game where the Joker and all 2 cards were considered Aces while the other one did not. That is more in line with how the add-on, UI, SCT issue looks from my perspective. I don't want ZOS to take out the Aces, but I would rather play poker with 4 Aces instead of 10. I don't want to play the game where you get to have 10 Aces and I only get 4 because "options are good".

Still, bad analogy.

Frawr

I agree with op that options are good. It is vital to give us the ability to customise To our liking.

Particle effect visual cues are fine in solo or small group but in a trial or raid va raid pvp, good luck following your buffs via visual cues only. Too many particle effects to do it efficiently in my opinion.

I'd appreciate the ability to turn on and off buff timers

dday3six

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I am actually a proponent of not having options for the PVP UI. Let the developers decide and everyone in the game, from the most experienced PVP player to the least experienced noob, gets the exact same on-screen information.

I will give that in PVP having more information can/will likely give an advantage. But to me this is like saying I want to be a race car driver and compete with others, BUT I want to do it without the instrument panel and on top of that, I want everyone else to do it without the instrument panel too.

The problem with that is in an MMO world the instrument panel may differ from car to car, but it's there. It's always been there and it is accepted as the standard. So for many players, they take a look at that dash and "what? no! where's my panel?"

While I do actually respect the desire of those anti-ui for a clean more solo game interface while playing MMO, I see that as a player having to take the hit for making that choice to have less information. Some of these addons mentioned in this thread are way overboard what ZOS even said they were looking to provide toggles for. ( Is there really an addon that says when to rolldodge or block?) I don't think their actual plans for the game will be as unbalancing as anything they do with our skills on a regular basis

and text chat for console @mrskinskull , I'm really sorry you feel as though you would be forced to use it. But having listened to zone chatter, ZOS would have to pay *me* to play console version without chat. Some of this harassment going on, with an admittance of no logs from ZOS, and no "apparent" monitoring going on...I almost expect legal problems to arise.

And while racing I don't look at the instrument panel unless there is an issue of some kind.
Mostly I am using my ears for engine revs and unsual noises, I am using my in built g-meter and experience to gauge if I am approaching the corner too fast and going to understeer under braking, or there's too much g on the rear at the moment to go full throttle, without inducing oversteer. I am using my eyes to decide the best line and avoid obstacles, or take opportunities to overtake.
You're not using the UI/HUD/Interface/dash at this point...you are relying on the experience and senses for the most part.

[edit: spelling is hard ]

Not overly relevant to the actual topic, but I'll just say if drivers rarely looked at their tachometer. It's interesting that it would be centrally located, with much larger print, and that a steering wheel desgined for racing is made in a way to never obstruct it's view.

In prospective more comparable to the game. Players cannot feel or see the time remaining on dots or buffs. They can know when it's active, if the aura is visible, but it's not always visible. It hard for me to believe that is not important feedback players are going without when not managing dots and buffs properly results in a DPS lose.

Arato

Psychobunni wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

gjmgamesub17_ESO wrote: »

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

I'll give you an analogy/example:

In olympic swimming there's regulations on the types of suits they can use, there might be better suits out there made of advanced materials that result in less drag, but they're not allowed. While maybe some people would want the faster times these suits would allow them, everyone else is in the same boat so competition is fair. Now that ban gets lifted, and the new advanced suits are considered an OPTION. Now those teams with the expensive suits are setting new Olympic Records and leaving people using the old suits in the dust. Other teams feel that they must wear the OPTIONAL new suits in order to remain competitive, and that includes people who might have preferred the old suits for comfort or they're more used to it (or really can't afford it, the full body suits are $600 a pop), but they feel they'd be handicapping themselves by not using the new suits, whether they personally liked them or not.

All Olympic swimmers then used the new fastskin suits if they wanted to be competitive.

the FINA (the organization that regulates competitive swimming) looked at this advantage and realized the ban was for the better and re-banned these suits, putting everyone back on an even field as far as their suits go.

In case you're having trouble connecting the dots. Giving an OPTION that confers an advantage leads to everyone feeling forced to turn that option on, regardless of personal preference. While people may wish they had the advantages from this "option" when it's disabled, at least everyone's on an even field.

Just one problem, in this case the Olympics are supplying the suits. So everyone can afford them and everyone is given the same even ground opportunities. If someone chooses they are more comfortable with less than, that is their choice. But everyone else shouldn't have to suffer with less because some don't want to accept the free suits.

That isn't the point, the point is that anyone considering some things "optional" because their's a checkbox next to it doesn't grasp that if it conveys a gameplay advantage it won't actually be an option.

It's "optional" to shoot yourself in the foot before running a race too but nobody does it.

Even if the International Olympic Committee provided fastskin suits to everyone who wanted them who were competing in the Olympics, it's still not an "option" it's an absolute mandatory thing if you want to compete with those who "opt" for it.

I challenge Mr. Lambert to share with us the % of players in cyrodiil who have the "show alliance symbols" and "show enemy health bars" "options" off.

Arato

lordrichter wrote: »

Meh. Bad analogy.

It would be more fitting if one player wanted to play the game where the Joker and all 2 cards were considered Aces while the other one did not. That is more in line with how the add-on, UI, SCT issue looks from my perspective. I don't want ZOS to take out the Aces, but I would rather play poker with 4 Aces instead of 10. I don't want to play the game where you get to have 10 Aces and I only get 4 because "options are good".

Still, bad analogy.

It's not in reference to SCT. I'm fine with SCT because SCT does not give a competitive advantage, and thus it actually is an option. SCT is more comparable to whether you want to wear a black colored swimsuit or a blue colored swimsuit of the same cut and material. Your times will be the same but you might like the look of one better. That's like show/hide helmet.

I'm referring to "options" that confer gameplay advantage such as increased visibility of enemies in PVP.(nameplates in particular)

Also the swimsuits thing is a real world thing. That actually happened. In 2008 and 2009 when the fastskin suits were legal people using them shattered world records. FINA did impose a ban on the suits in 2010 for competitive events because it was giving an advantage.