Psychobunni wrote: »

No, I think addons make it a bit more like a MMO. See, I don't have very many "I need/want to do it this way for immersion".

I pick this skill because it does X more damage than that skill, that weapon because the buff for using works for the set up I'm after more than that one. AND I'm not even a "competitive" player. When I'm testing something out, I don't want to guesstimate how much damage it did, I want to know exactly how much. When I look at my health bar, I want to know the exact number I'm sitting on. In my case, when I'm farming mats I can see on screen how full my bag is, when research is over, or if I'm carrying enough gold to buy that deal in zone chat. It's efficient and prevents me from wasting a second more than I have to.

Life is difficult, it's a chess game everyday. You have to make choices that you wont see the outcome of for years to come, "guessing" at what you believe is the best way with limited knowledge. 7 kids, a hubby and a cat, I know all about difficult. When I sit down to play ESO, my one thing for me.... I'm not looking for that level of chess. I just want it to be fun.

The wonderful thing about having these as options, is you can play your way and I can play mine. @Elloa made an awesome video proving that to you. That in a sea of players with the ability to use an addon for just about everything, you can still play "your" way and enjoy the game. Without infringing on anothers enjoyment.

Like it or not, players and therefore revenue have left this game over the lack of options. Some that were already there in beta, but taken out because the anti crowd was louder at the time. We don't need less players. We need a game that allows many players to play how "they want" and not how a few think they should.

Ultimately, "play as you want" is just a meaningless phrase because other players, and even the game company, define how you are able to play, no matter what you want to do.

The "play as you want" concept only works when the way you want to play does not impact someone else playing they way they want to play. When a conflict arises, one or the other will get to "play as they want" and the other will not.

Specific to this conversation, if Player A wants to use the minimal UI with no add-ons, they can certainly opt to do that. Player B wants ZOS to provide a full MMO interface, with the option to turn it off so that both Player A and Player B can play as they want. Everyone gets the option and everyone should be happy.

They can be happy until Player A encounters Player B in Cyrodiil. Player A is watching ground cues and effects to determine what Player B is doing. Player B knows intimate details about Player A and the offensive and defensive capabilities being used, and can know exactly when to apply each skill based on a numerical understanding of Player A. This is information that Player A does not have about Player B. Player A is guessing and estimating the information that Player B knows. Unless Player B is all thumbs, or Player A is exceptionally talented, Player A should lose to Player B more frequently than the reverse, all other things being equal.

In terms of UI options, Player A will need to adopt what Player B is doing in order to win more, or Player B will have to adopt what Player A is doing in order to win less. Should Player A continue to "play as they want" and use the minimal UI? Well, not if they want to beat Player B more reliably. Maybe Player B will turn off the UI to give Player A a fair chance. (Pause for laughter)

You can apply this to First Person vs Third Person. You can successfully play PVE, even group PVE, in first person. I have done it and am pretty good at it. If I want to play First Person, I can certainly do that. I can do that until I come across someone in Cyrodiil that is using Third Person, and then they know more about the tactical situation than I do, even if we have exactly the same UI and exactly the same add-ons. Even though I want to play in First Person, you bet your tootie that I switch to Third Person. Just the fact that they have the option to be in Third Person drives me to be in Third Person, no matter how I want to play.

So, no, options are not always wonderful. In fact, many times they are a waste of time. In cases where players are going up against each other, options that change the information presented are pointless. Anyone who sets foot in Cyrodiil in first person with no add-ons is, almost by definition, not a serious player in this game.

I am actually a proponent of not having options for the PVP UI. Let the developers decide and everyone in the game, from the most experienced PVP player to the least experienced noob, gets the exact same on-screen information.

Xendyn wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Hey guys, especially PC players....

This is like our only MMO (xbone) so yeah I want a more MMO experience, because I want an MMO.

You and your options via PC have no place on the money making consoles. If you don't like it play something else, you have many many options (omg I want archeage)

So the game focuses on us and we want that experience

I'm not sure what you're even trying to say here, try again?

You have to learn how to speak "console". MMO = shooter with friends.

lordrichter wrote: »

Eriquito3 wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

t really doesn't happen that way.
First obvious reason is animation cancelling. How are you supposed to know someone cast something if you couldn't see the animation?
If you don't see how much total health your opponent has, how can you have a clue on how big his blazing shield will hit you?

I don't seriously PVP any more in this game, mostly because my perception is that this is the realm of the cheaters in this game. Between ZOS not doing anything about exploits and the "required" add-ons that ZOS allows that give advantage in the game, this is no longer something that I want to be involved with.

I don't see a reason to know the total health of any opponent in the game, not even PVE opponents. I certainly don't think players need to know how hard they will be hit by some ability. When the time is right, they will have a clue about how hard it hits. I am sorry, but I see this as part of the game.

Er you do realise many skills in this game are based off or only work on opponents with less than 50% or some at 25% health right?

How the hell are you supposed to use executioner or a heal spamming mage when you don't know if he's at 25% or 90% hp?

You can't estimate the percentage of health left by check the bar of your ennemy? Cause that's how I do. I guess it's a question of being used to it. I prefer a grafic information than a number one.
slightly out of subject, but just wanted to point out that numbers are not the only way to get information.

Yes players can roughly estimate. However it is just that, a guess. What if ZOS decided to take away red circles telegraphs from enemy AOE's, would players want to guess if they are standing in them? What about removing the HUD completely, no health, stamina, or magicka bars. When is the line crossed that guesswork becomes lacking information?

As said earlier, I've given up to argue versus players that want absolutely their classical MMO interface. You had your addons ( I was strongly against it in beta), you will have now the UI integrated to the base game. SO you won the fight If I've the option to remove those infos I'll be satsified enough...


But what I'm telling is that IF the game is build in a certain way, it`s meant to work that way, and its players to adapt as its part of the "challenge". ESO was giving all info needed to fight correctly and be succesful without the need of any extra interface. And I was very happy about that, because personally I prefer a immersive game, an instictive combat, a clean UI without too much infos. Is it harder? YES! Is it less accurate? YES! Is it less precise? YES! But if every player were on equal ground, that would have been fair. Unfortunately addons were allowed and players that wanted to be in the top competitve game were sort of requiered to instal some of those addons to be more accurate.

That's what I find very sad. I'd have really prefered ESO doing hardcore content without allowing addons, and we would have seen some other players being the best players.

Some people like numbers and nameplates, others dont. Neither side should be forced to not use or use those options. The technology and know how is there to make all those things in the ui toggeled, so there is no reason to not have it.

The suggestion of "options" is frequently used in an attempted appeasement so we can all get along. Sadly, this only works when your selection of options has no substantial bearing on how we play together. Options that are balanced are fair and worthy options to have.

In this case, your selection of options provides you with information that players using the other options do not have. If that provides you with a significant advantage, the other player really has no option, they must adopt your options. It may be an option, but it is not a balanced option. If other players have to adopt your preferences in order to compete with you, then what is the point of the option?

I quote the High Priestess...

Elloa wrote: »

But if every player were on equal ground, that would have been fair. Unfortunately addons were allowed and players that wanted to be in the top competitve game were sort of requiered to instal some of those addons to be more accurate.

So then, why even argue to make them optional? If the alternative to having them on is yet another questioning of the advantage that people are getting that are using them? Play the way you want, and the way that satisfies you- whether it gives you a disadvantage or not. And don't complain that you aren't on equal ground if you choose. As I said, I don't use anything that shows me about what an enemy is doing- only about what I'm doing. That doesn't make me any worse than the people that don't use anything, nor any better than the people that do use the API to see what I'm doing.

That's the thing about the API- ZOS exposes what they will. And those that use it are not *cheating*. When they took information out, people adapted. When they started to expose again, people adapted. Look at the rules as they make them, and decide whether you're going to go for it or not- but don't say anything about those that operate within the rules as written.

Waffennacht wrote: »

My point was console makes the, company money, not PC therefore they will consider console input before PC input.

Also play as you want also means play as poorly as you want. Not that everyone will be the same period.

I still PvP in first person as an example, i don't care about the advantage of 3rd person viewpoint

Dontnstart the pc vs console stuff here. Just stop.

For questers and RPers, the ui is more than enough... But for ANYTHING more than that, add-ons are nearly required for optimal play due to a total lack of actual MMO features.

TequilaFire wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with knowing how much xp you are earning per kill or how much total xp you have earned or need till your next level.
Or the damage you are dealing or have taken at a given time.
These are the kind of things ZOS will probably add, not anything that will give one player an advantage over another.
I would like to know how many kills, my k/d etc.
And an option to turn off for those that don't want to know.
How can this not be a win win?

Exactly. I only want to know how much damage I am dealing, rather than guessing if I have a useless skill in my rotation. Once I have that info, I most likely will turn off the option.

Eriquito3 wrote: »

mrskinskull wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

My point was console makes the, company money, not PC therefore they will consider console input before PC input.

Also play as you want also means play as poorly as you want. Not that everyone will be the same period.

I still PvP in first person as an example, i don't care about the advantage of 3rd person viewpoint

IMO, console players seem poised to infuse cash into the coffers, so yeah you're probably right.

Once they get rid of buff servers, there will be less incentive to PvP or build and play towards PvP, so options after that point will likely have less of an effect on who gets the permabuffs from PvP.

Until then you're team may not be happy that you are not using all of the advantages provided by the game, be they upgraded ui, third person camera or an awful text chat box.

You will have to toggle it all on to compete in the ui arms race.
So no its not optional .

To PvP or dungeon you will be forced into using text chat or the pilot seat Ui.

Maybe we could have PvP servers that force the ui off, or locked in first person.
GTA allows for this and it greatly changes the experience.

I am against all this. You need to be forced to use text chat and the new ui. I would rather you be forced in useing these toggeled options so they devs time are not wasted in making a server for only a handful of people.


Cheers

Its dangerous to try to force casuals into needing the aircraft pilot screen to play the game.
It creates a barrier to entry and would likely lead to many players throwing there hands up and saying this is too complicated.

I play with tons of these guys that picked the game up casually. Keeping that crowd should be the aim of zenimax.
They are more financially valuable as a demographic than retaining a niche crowd of hard cores IMO.

Cheers.

Tholian1 wrote: »

mrskinskull wrote: »

Eriquito3 wrote: »

mrskinskull wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

My point was console makes the, company money, not PC therefore they will consider console input before PC input.

Also play as you want also means play as poorly as you want. Not that everyone will be the same period.

I still PvP in first person as an example, i don't care about the advantage of 3rd person viewpoint

IMO, console players seem poised to infuse cash into the coffers, so yeah you're probably right.

Once they get rid of buff servers, there will be less incentive to PvP or build and play towards PvP, so options after that point will likely have less of an effect on who gets the permabuffs from PvP.

Until then you're team may not be happy that you are not using all of the advantages provided by the game, be they upgraded ui, third person camera or an awful text chat box.

You will have to toggle it all on to compete in the ui arms race.
So no its not optional .

To PvP or dungeon you will be forced into using text chat or the pilot seat Ui.

Maybe we could have PvP servers that force the ui off, or locked in first person.
GTA allows for this and it greatly changes the experience.

I am against all this. You need to be forced to use text chat and the new ui. I would rather you be forced in useing these toggeled options so they devs time are not wasted in making a server for only a handful of people.


Cheers

Its dangerous to try to force casuals into needing the aircraft pilot screen to play the game.
It creates a barrier to entry and would likely lead to many players throwing there hands up and saying this is too complicated.

I play with tons of these guys that picked the game up casually. Keeping that crowd should be the aim of zenimax.
They are more financially valuable as a demographic than retaining a niche crowd of hard cores IMO.

Cheers.

You do understand what "casual" means, right? We'll see how well ESO fairs with the "casuals" over the next few months. A lot of competition on the horizon.

That's no reason to rush to alienate them with a complicated ui.

Casuals will return as new content drops. Console player binge and purge in this fashion, its not the marathon slog of monthly subscriptions.

Take note of how GTA online and destiny drop content to nurse and grow their player base,

It does work, but with a super complicated HUD, these. Guys will drink a beer an play something easier.

Psychobunni wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I am actually a proponent of not having options for the PVP UI. Let the developers decide and everyone in the game, from the most experienced PVP player to the least experienced noob, gets the exact same on-screen information.

I will give that in PVP having more information can/will likely give an advantage. But to me this is like saying I want to be a race car driver and compete with others, BUT I want to do it without the instrument panel and on top of that, I want everyone else to do it without the instrument panel too.

The problem with that is in an MMO world the instrument panel may differ from car to car, but it's there. It's always been there and it is accepted as the standard. So for many players, they take a look at that dash and "what? no! where's my panel?"

While I do actually respect the desire of those anti-ui for a clean more solo game interface while playing MMO, I see that as a player having to take the hit for making that choice to have less information. Some of these addons mentioned in this thread are way overboard what ZOS even said they were looking to provide toggles for. ( Is there really an addon that says when to rolldodge or block?) I don't think their actual plans for the game will be as unbalancing as anything they do with our skills on a regular basis

and text chat for console @mrskinskull , I'm really sorry you feel as though you would be forced to use it. But having listened to zone chatter, ZOS would have to pay *me* to play console version without chat. Some of this harassment going on, with an admittance of no logs from ZOS, and no "apparent" monitoring going on...I almost expect legal problems to arise.

Most of those videos are cherry picked to exaggerate what is 90 percent of the time an awesome and helpful community.

I can't stop people from naming and shaming other players by posting such videos, but I can vouch for an active area chat community around hubs.

You can wander past build discussions, merchants selling wares , guilds inviting people or just some silly people really getting into emotes!

90 percent of the time a kind word or gentle reminder to the odd troll, that all of the listeners can easily report them is enough to put people in check.

You don't have to be rude, just remind the offender that he is annoying a crowd of people with the authority to report him.

Its a community and it should be nurtured not avoided.

Please add a real time clock to the game, that is optional.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

When things like SCT go in, you will have the option to toggle them off or on.

I knew I did right by coming back when you took the reigns. Seeing things like this revisited is fantastic, thank you.

Careful now.. Theres posters here who feel options is a terrible, terrible thing.

Elloa wrote: »

Mighty_oakk wrote: »

Junglejim82 wrote: »

What sorcery is this exactly? A new and improved u.i ? With combat data ? Perhaps even text chat ? This excites me I need those numbers I'm sure I'm not the only one . Would seriously improve this game

I'd re sub if they even said they were planning on adding text and combat data a year from now.

Is there more info on this possible UI improvement anywhere?

Mat Firor have discussed about this in the Quake Qon presentation.

I totally agree with you @lordrichter I would have prefered the game would not allow addons wich would have left everyone equal, the most skilled players being the one most attentive to the environement, clues, and combat animation and having the correct reflex.
But I also know that the players like you and me, are probably not the majority. Too much players enjoy to have a interface like WOW. So I gave up the fight and stop to argue.

However, I'll defend theeth and claws, my style of gameplay, and trying to prove that you can be a good, competent and maybe even competitive players without addons (or heavy UI)

Might be fun to have an add-on disabled Cyrodiil campaign. If you had to rely all of the time on the health bar you could still have a sense of when someone is in execute range and if you are wrong that's just a risk.

The people who think basic mmo ui givens like buff/debuff icons and combat text are forms of cheating or a bad idea baffle me.

I can't help but feel that these are the people who grew up with the "participation awards" that do nothing but reward mediocrity and laziness.

These features have been standard in mmo's since everquest. Use it to better yourself or don't complain when you aren't rewarded as much as someone who did.

One of the reasons I love The Elder Scrolls so much. I play the game one way, while someone else will play it completely differently.