Sorcerer, a Dying Class in PvP

Dracane · August 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Yea sorry don't know what PTS you're on but there's still pleanty of sorcs on my PTS still shield stacking away and spamming crystal frags. DK on the other hand are like real dragons now and nearly extinct.

Crystal fragments spam does not exist. Crystal Shard spam probably, which takes 1 second to cast.

Lucky28 · August 2015

melloni_aleb16_ESO wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

This shows a lack of class knowledge. Good sorcs do NOT kill each other first off. Second, good stamina players can be a sorcs bane. Think wrecking blow spam or nbs with macro from stealth. The good players already know how to counter shields ..... if you bring the 'good' sorcs down to your level, the average joe wont be able to run in IC.

uhm..play you a Sorc ? .....uhm...and your solution is spam WB for kill Sorc ?

OK! ....

in live Sorc decides whether to fight or run away ...and his class-shield have no sense

Sorcs can get away if lucky and the people they are runing from don't know what to do or are bad at gap closing/ranged. when i try and escape with Ball of Lightning or Streak someone always gap closes me CC's me or Snipes me.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · August 2015

The big issue is the stacking of nerfs on Bolt Escape. BE has been nerfed so many times in a somewhat clumsy manner that doesn't really address the main issue people have with it but makes the skill very frustrating to use as it is the ONLY skill that punishes you for spamming it. Then, as magica regen and magicka pools increase, the nerf becomes less effective and people start complaining about it again.

The new nerf seems to address that but is way too harsh as is because it punishes ALL uses of BE and not just port spamming. I support the changes with one important Caveat that will reward offensive use of bolt escape, reward kiting (which is a sorcerer survivability standard) and only punish those that spam bolt escape just to disengage.

The 50% cost increase should be removed after landing a successfull heavy attack.
For Streak, this should be expanded to all melee attacks so that stamina sorcerers can actually use this class defining ability.

I have a full justification HERE. Please put this in your signature so you can save intelegent sorc gameplay and only punish those that use BE for spamming across the map.

Offensive use of Bolt Escape (especially by stamina sorcs) should NOT be punished so harshly

Lava_Croft · August 2015

Bashev wrote: »

Same story again as before 1.6 and then boom Sors super OP.

Let's quickly all roll Templars!

Aunatar · August 2015

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Every bad player: "SORCS ARE GETTING SO NERFED, THEY ARE USELESS, THEY ARE A DEAD CLASS!!!"

In reality for strong classes-
1. Nightblade
2. Sorcerer
3. Templar
4. DK

That's not reality at all. DKs are not even close to being weak, let alone the weakest. This is typical forum parroting...

Have you even tried out a dk on the PTS? My flame lash (with weakness to elements and engulfing flames) on a target hit 2.8k on someone, on my Nightblade my sap essence hits people for 3k for EACH PERSON.

NB aoe hits harder than DK's strongest single target ability while my DK had all that increased damage and more spell damage.

This is misinformation. A whip generally hits for 3.5/4k, 4.5/5k if crits, up to 6.5/7k on vamps, if buffed with engulfing flames. Did you test it with medium armor or what? I agree that DK's are dead on PTS, but providing false information won't help the class.

King Bozo · August 2015

This is why you roll one of each class.

Dracane · August 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

The big issue is the stacking of nerfs on Bolt Escape. BE has been nerfed so many times in a somewhat clumsy manner that doesn't really address the main issue people have with it but makes the skill very frustrating to use as it is the ONLY skill that punishes you for spamming it. Then, as magica regen and magicka pools increase, the nerf becomes less effective and people start complaining about it again.

The new nerf seems to address that but is way too harsh as is because it punishes ALL uses of BE and not just port spamming. I support the changes with one important Caveat that will reward offensive use of bolt escape, reward kiting (which is a sorcerer survivability standard) and only punish those that spam bolt escape just to disengage.
The 50% cost increase should be removed after landing a successfull heavy attack.

For Streak, this should be expanded to all melee attacks so that stamina sorcerers can actually use this class defining ability.

I have a full justification HERE. Please put this in your signature so you can save intelegent sorc gameplay and only punish those that use BE for spamming across the map.

Offensive use of Bolt Escape (especially by stamina sorcs) should NOT be punished so harshly

Exactly. That's the same problem I see with cloak.
Both, Bolt Escape and Cloak should not be punished if you use them for offense. But both should be punished when abused as an escape.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

I say, restore Bolt Escape, remove shield stacking, buff single shields and good.

Indeed the real problem is shield stacking. Allow 1 shield at the time, problem solved.

Sorcerer's mecanic is simple : tp-burst-tp, repeat (with a shield to avoid one or two burst)

With shield stacking this mecanic is broken and the sorcerer becomes an infinite tank/dps/self healing with endless mobility.

The real problem actually is not sorcerers or NB or any other OP build, the real problem is that their is not soft/hard cap for stats/regen/armor/weapon-spell damage like before.

a game with no cool down HAVE TOO have a ressource management logic. With almost infinite resssources we have none. Give back caps and god this game will be a lot more balanced.

coyteriarwb17_ESO · August 2015

who ever brought up that idea of restoring Bolt Escape, removing shield stacking and buffing hardened ward is a genius. Funny how players know how to manage a mmo rather than the developers.

Septimus_Magna · August 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

The new nerf seems to address that but is way too harsh as is because it punishes ALL uses of BE and not just port spamming.
The 50% cost increase should be removed after landing a successfull heavy attack.

For Streak, this should be expanded to all melee attacks so that stamina sorcerers can actually use this class defining ability.

I agree and I have suggested the exact same thing multiple times. In the eyes of ZOS bolt escape clearly isnt ment to be an escape (lol wut, the name says escape but ok). What should bolt escape be used for if escaping is not its purpose? It sure isnt healing or tanking so it must be fighting. Then why oh why dear ZOS, why punish sorcs who use this skill to fight?

On live my Streak does around decent dmg to non-blocking light armored enemies which is useful to proc mages fury explosion from time to time.

Lava_Croft · August 2015

Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending like there are anti-Bolt Escape potions.
Stop pretending like AoE damage breaks your Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending skills like Flare and Mark Target break your Bolt Escape.
Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.

Farorin · August 2015

I used to be of the opinion that sorcs were OP, but I now realize that even though some of the things that sorcs use were too good, like bolt spam, and shield stacking, a lot of the sorc abilities are still pretty crap, and need a lot of work, especially now considering that sorcs have had bolt nerfed and the issue of shield stacking is being somewhat addressed, they need other options for variety.

To clarify, sorcs are definitely not under-powered even after the nerf, and are still very strong and viable, but that doesn't mean they don't need balancing and improvements to many of there abilities. But many classes also need these same balances and improvements to many of the underused and non-viable skills.

But hey, at least it's not as bad as templars who have literally only ONE good ability.

Dracane · August 2015

coyteriarwb17_ESO wrote: »

who ever brought up that idea of restoring Bolt Escape, removing shield stacking and buffing hardened ward is a genius. Funny how players know how to manage a mmo rather than the developers.

Uh *-* uhm, well, uhm, hihi hmmmmm #naughtySchoolGirlSmile

Maulkin · August 2015

Dracane · August 2015

Farorin wrote: »

I used to be of the opinion that sorcs were OP, but I now realize that even though some of the things that sorcs use were too good, like bolt spam, and shield stacking, a lot of the sorc abilities are still pretty crap, and need a lot of work, especially now considering that sorcs have had bolt nerfed and the issue of shield stacking is being somewhat addressed, they need other options for variety.

To clarify, sorcs are definitely not under-powered even after the nerf, and are still very strong and viable, but that doesn't mean they don't need balancing and improvements to many of there abilities. But many classes also need these same balances and improvements to many of the underused and non-viable skills.

But hey, at least it's not as bad as templars who have literally only ONE good ability.

I agree. The only thing keeping Sorcerer from drowning is mainly Hardened Ward, crystal fragment procs and maybe Bolt escape (which is much weaker now)
If Hardened ward wouldn't be the way it is, Sorcerer would be incredibly weak. We rely on Crystal Fragment procs to be able to kill something, we need 3 damage shields to stay alive.

If you ignore, nerf or counter one of those 2 abilities, Sorcerer is completely helpless. In fact, Crystal Shard is more than easy to avoid or to counter. Sorcerer is predictable and a good player knows exactly what a Sorcerer is going to try and he knows, all he has to do is to watch out for a big shining purple crystal to negate this class.

With that being said, Hardened Ward is what makes Sorcerers strong.

Eejit1331 · August 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending like there are anti-Bolt Escape potions.
Stop pretending like AoE damage breaks your Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending skills like Flare and Mark Target break your Bolt Escape.
Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.

Same thing. Both are, be wad, being abused as an escape tactic, but only one got nerfed. Time for cloak to get the same treatment. All those cries from the op NB community to nerf BE because they didn't kill them in Cyrodiil, BE gets nerfed, cloak is abused in the same manner, if not worse, and now NB's shed tears. The NB should have thought of the ripple effect before they cried and cried about BE. CLOAK IS OP AND NEEDS TO HAVE THE SAME PENALTY AS BE. Cloak is the ultimate middle finger mid fight. Time to balance that power out.

Lucky28 · August 2015

Yeah i do think sorcs are dying PvP class. everytime i run into another sorc in my alliance or another we're all running the same exact skills using them in the same exact way. with this nerf to Streak it really takes away our ability to be interactive and our versatility in how we use our builds. i tried playing my sorc build onthe PTS and it's just really dull and boring.

Lucky28 · August 2015

double post

Lava_Croft · August 2015

Eejit1331 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending like there are anti-Bolt Escape potions.
Stop pretending like AoE damage breaks your Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending skills like Flare and Mark Target break your Bolt Escape.
Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.

Same thing. Both are, be wad, being abused as an escape tactic, but only one got nerfed. Time for cloak to get the same treatment. All those cries from the op NB community to nerf BE because they didn't kill them in Cyrodiil, BE gets nerfed, cloak is abused in the same manner, if not worse, and now NB's shed tears. The NB should have thought of the ripple effect before they cried and cried about BE. CLOAK IS OP AND NEEDS TO HAVE THE SAME PENALTY AS BE. Cloak is the ultimate middle finger mid fight. Time to balance that power out.

First anti-BE potions, AoE damage breaking BE and skills like Flare and Mark Target breaking BE.

Stop comparing the two, they are nothing alike

timidobserver · August 2015

The problem with being the FOTM for so long is that nobody cares that your FOTM status is being removed in 2.1. You now have to live among us mere mortals.

david.haypreub18_ESO · August 2015

If Sorceror is dying, then Templar has never lived.

Dracane · August 2015

Eejit1331 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending like there are anti-Bolt Escape potions.
Stop pretending like AoE damage breaks your Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending skills like Flare and Mark Target break your Bolt Escape.
Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.

Same thing. Both are, be wad, being abused as an escape tactic, but only one got nerfed. Time for cloak to get the same treatment. All those cries from the op NB community to nerf BE because they didn't kill them in Cyrodiil, BE gets nerfed, cloak is abused in the same manner, if not worse, and now NB's shed tears. The NB should have thought of the ripple effect before they cried and cried about BE. CLOAK IS OP AND NEEDS TO HAVE THE SAME PENALTY AS BE. Cloak is the ultimate middle finger mid fight. Time to balance that power out.

Indeed. Cloak needs the same threatment as bolt escape, this is more than necessary.

Lava_Croft · August 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Eejit1331 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending like there are anti-Bolt Escape potions.
Stop pretending like AoE damage breaks your Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending skills like Flare and Mark Target break your Bolt Escape.
Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.

Same thing. Both are, be wad, being abused as an escape tactic, but only one got nerfed. Time for cloak to get the same treatment. All those cries from the op NB community to nerf BE because they didn't kill them in Cyrodiil, BE gets nerfed, cloak is abused in the same manner, if not worse, and now NB's shed tears. The NB should have thought of the ripple effect before they cried and cried about BE. CLOAK IS OP AND NEEDS TO HAVE THE SAME PENALTY AS BE. Cloak is the ultimate middle finger mid fight. Time to balance that power out.

Indeed. Cloak needs the same threatment as bolt escape, this is more than necessary.

Great! Do we get anti-BE potions? Will BE break on AoE damage? Can I use Mark Target or Revealing Flare to stop you from Bolting?

Can't wait to spam Caltrops and forcing Sorcerers to dodge roll out of it before being able to Bolt away!

Lucky28 · August 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Eejit1331 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending like there are anti-Bolt Escape potions.
Stop pretending like AoE damage breaks your Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending skills like Flare and Mark Target break your Bolt Escape.
Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.

Same thing. Both are, be wad, being abused as an escape tactic, but only one got nerfed. Time for cloak to get the same treatment. All those cries from the op NB community to nerf BE because they didn't kill them in Cyrodiil, BE gets nerfed, cloak is abused in the same manner, if not worse, and now NB's shed tears. The NB should have thought of the ripple effect before they cried and cried about BE. CLOAK IS OP AND NEEDS TO HAVE THE SAME PENALTY AS BE. Cloak is the ultimate middle finger mid fight. Time to balance that power out.

Indeed. Cloak needs the same threatment as bolt escape, this is more than necessary.

Great! Do we get anti-BE potions? Will BE break on AoE damage? Can I use Mark Target or Revealing Flare to stop you from Bolting?

Can't wait to spam Caltrops and forcing Sorcerers to dodge roll out of it before being able to Bolt away!

why do you keep repeating the same thing over and over?. Yes cloak has it's counters. guess what, so did streak and BoL and so does shield stacking. that doesn't stop people from "thinking" they are impossible to deal or just have a hard time dealing with them thus wanting them nerfed so PvP will be easier for them.

Emma_Overload · August 2015

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I say, restore Bolt Escape, remove shield stacking, buff single shields and good.

Indeed the real problem is shield stacking. Allow 1 shield at the time, problem solved.

Sorcerer's mecanic is simple : tp-burst-tp, repeat (with a shield to avoid one or two burst)

With shield stacking this mecanic is broken and the sorcerer becomes an infinite tank/dps/self healing with endless mobility.

The real problem actually is not sorcerers or NB or any other OP build, the real problem is that their is not soft/hard cap for stats/regen/armor/weapon-spell damage like before.

a game with no cool down HAVE TOO have a ressource management logic. With almost infinite resssources we have none. Give back caps and god this game will be a lot more balanced.

You must be talking about PvP, where the fights (between individual players) are usually only a few seconds long. It's true that I always run out of Health in Cyrodiil before Magicka or Stamina.

PvE, on the other hand, is totally different, especially SOLO PvE. Before update 1.6 and the removal of soft caps, it was common to have resource problems in long fights with bosses. That's why you used to see Magicka builds stupidly risking suicide with Spell Symmetry, because they were DESPERATE not to run out of Magicka. Even now, you can't just stack Spell Damage at the expense of Regen if you want to survive solo... you have to compromise.

Lava_Croft · August 2015

Lucky28 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Eejit1331 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending like there are anti-Bolt Escape potions.
Stop pretending like AoE damage breaks your Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending skills like Flare and Mark Target break your Bolt Escape.
Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.

Same thing. Both are, be wad, being abused as an escape tactic, but only one got nerfed. Time for cloak to get the same treatment. All those cries from the op NB community to nerf BE because they didn't kill them in Cyrodiil, BE gets nerfed, cloak is abused in the same manner, if not worse, and now NB's shed tears. The NB should have thought of the ripple effect before they cried and cried about BE. CLOAK IS OP AND NEEDS TO HAVE THE SAME PENALTY AS BE. Cloak is the ultimate middle finger mid fight. Time to balance that power out.

Indeed. Cloak needs the same threatment as bolt escape, this is more than necessary.

Great! Do we get anti-BE potions? Will BE break on AoE damage? Can I use Mark Target or Revealing Flare to stop you from Bolting?

Can't wait to spam Caltrops and forcing Sorcerers to dodge roll out of it before being able to Bolt away!

why do you keep repeating the same thing over and over?. Yes cloak has it's counters. guess what, so did streak and BoL and so does shield stacking. that doesn't stop people from "thinking" they are impossible to deal or just have a hard time dealing with them thus wanting them nerfed so PvP will be easier for them.

Because people keep repeating their 'X must be treated the same as Y' requests without thinking of the implications.

TheBull · August 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS buffs then 1.7 comes

It was all a ploy MUHAHAAA

Lucky28 · August 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Eejit1331 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending like there are anti-Bolt Escape potions.
Stop pretending like AoE damage breaks your Bolt Escape.
Stop pretending skills like Flare and Mark Target break your Bolt Escape.
Stop comparing Cloak to Bolt Escape.

Same thing. Both are, be wad, being abused as an escape tactic, but only one got nerfed. Time for cloak to get the same treatment. All those cries from the op NB community to nerf BE because they didn't kill them in Cyrodiil, BE gets nerfed, cloak is abused in the same manner, if not worse, and now NB's shed tears. The NB should have thought of the ripple effect before they cried and cried about BE. CLOAK IS OP AND NEEDS TO HAVE THE SAME PENALTY AS BE. Cloak is the ultimate middle finger mid fight. Time to balance that power out.

Indeed. Cloak needs the same threatment as bolt escape, this is more than necessary.

Great! Do we get anti-BE potions? Will BE break on AoE damage? Can I use Mark Target or Revealing Flare to stop you from Bolting?

Can't wait to spam Caltrops and forcing Sorcerers to dodge roll out of it before being able to Bolt away!

why do you keep repeating the same thing over and over?. Yes cloak has it's counters. guess what, so did streak and BoL and so does shield stacking. that doesn't stop people from "thinking" they are impossible to deal or just have a hard time dealing with them thus wanting them nerfed so PvP will be easier for them.

Because people keep repeating their 'X must be treated the same as Y' requests without thinking of the implications.

I would prefer nothing where nerfed, i really enjoyed the PvP in the current live. however, this patch is extremely unbalanced and pretty much destroys any chance new players have of countering.... well, anything really. So yeah.

Xeniph · August 2015

Would be nice if the people who have not, or are unable to log on to the PTS, would refrain from the doom and gloom. Especially without testing themselves, or relying on video's/hearsay. Opinions are like, well lets just say everyone has one, but uniformed opinions are especially smelly.

Sorcs are not a dying class and imo shields, or the interaction between multiple, do still need some form of adjustment. However they are still quite strong on the pts. And this opinion is based of playing my own sorc and having played against many. In no way is this class in danger of dying off in it's current form.

I welcome all feedback and good discussions. But if you haven't tested this stuff yourself, the normal forums are === > way.

Saturn · August 2015

Murmeltier wrote: »

For any DK, Templar and Healing Ward using Class, it is the same but these Classes have a Selfheal, the Sorcerer not. The Restoration Staff Skills arent good enough to Counter Green Dragonblood or Breath of Life.

You have the Clannfear selfheal which in Update 7 I think will give you 42% of Max Health returned when it dies or is desummoned, this heal can be affected by sets that increase healing taken or Champion Point passives such as Blessed (increases healing done) or Quick Recovery (increases healing taken).

It is a VERY good selfheal. NB selfheal capabilities are much lesser than the Sorc's, but most NB's use resto staff (or Vigour) heals in combination with Shadow Cloak, which works very well.

And while the Shieldbreaker is extremely overpowered at the moment, there are plenty of ways a Sorc can still be good after Update 7. Don't just assume the class is "dying" without properly testing it out. Just like the perma-blockers have to adapt, so too do Shieldstacking Sorcs have to adapt (and honestly Sorcs needed a nerf, they are stupidly overpowered on Live).

I have not fought many sorcs on the PTS, but those I have encountered have been quite fearsome. Also, Storm Atronach in a small alley is ridiculously scary, lol.