Skill is a Myth

Ezareth · August 2015

Rayste wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Rayste wrote: »

Myself and my small group of miscreants (all 4 of us) did this to you and around 10 DC last night for the better part of an hour. Must have been after we logged. Shots fired =/

I recall killing those "micreants" over and over including yourself. And it was a good 4-5 pugs and all but 2 were lowbies for far long than it was 10 DC which is was by the end. Either way I it's easy for a group of 4 to sit on a resource and kill pugs, especially when none of them were healers and you had 2 with healing ward.

Until I get access to vigor I'm not going to kill 4 decent players solo who focus me, especially considering you were the biggest healer on my team and your templar did nothing but spam RD on me.

Funny how people can remember things differently. You killed me a grand total of 1 time when we finally wiped. 1v1 I am fairly certain you wouldn't be able to kill me once.

I knew you would bite on this which is exactly why I posted this trash hah. And don't get me wrong, i have no issues with you in particular as a person or a player. This brings me to : is Skill a myth? I have actually thought about this many times in the past .....

It was around the time i was contemplating quitting MMO's altogether because they are perceived by most 'sane' people a waste of time and a way to escape reality. This is ok in small doses but we both know most posters here are .... anyways i digress.

Skill is an illusion created by gamers such as ourselves to quantify an acceptance of each other and levels of respect we deserve in game. Both are most likely meaningless in the end as we will never meet in person. But the emotions that this solicits can be very real.

And my final point, which your post brings out fairly well ..... many of us think we are actually better players than we really are and you are no exception .... it is funny actually when you sit back and read the posts and the stories of 1vxing and tales of greatness even back to the OP here. Finally, I would hate to close as a hypocrite here.... I don't post videos but I get really defensive when posts like the above quoted are made. Why? Simple, I think im a better player than you are

I charged into your group on that resource and killed your groupies and died many times because I hate seeing what people like you were doing. I wasn't planning on playing on Chillrend, I was going to go farm but when I zoned in and see a group of 4 organized players in a group farming lowbies an pugs on an all yellow map outside their home keep when they aren't even members (from what I could tell) of that campaign it sets off a nerve with me. When I'm running solo dying is an inevitability as I'm limited to Rally with my heals (other than what you gave me).

Whether or not you're a better player is irrelevant to me. Perception is reality. I don't seek to be the best player or be recognized as such which is why I don't duel and I've never joined on of those circle jerk dueling guilds like Legend (no offense to the members). In many forms of martial arts you are taught for good reason that you're never the best because it's true. While I've played several major games competitively and have even been ranked #1 in games larger than ESO I never thought that I was the best player for a moment.

I release my videos not to make money or become E-famous, I create them because I'm a creative person and I get a theme in my head and want to create it. I play this game because I'm a theorycrafter and it is mentally stimulating. I also played several other competitve games along with ESO and do very well in those as well. I agree MMOs are a waste of time and an escape from reality. For me though, you have to spend your time on something. I don't watch television and I enjoy plenty of other activities outside of gaming but at the end of the day everyone needs a source of entertainment, and that's all this is.

Rust_in_Peace · August 2015

How can skill be real if the game isn't real?

Araxleon · August 2015

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

How can skill be real if the game isn't real?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y

Recremen · August 2015

I have to disagree regarding skill, unless your definition of skill is relegated exclusively to character build creation, in which case there's a hard cap on build variety so I think your definition is pretty lackluster. While build certainly plays into it, and there are severe issues with broken builds, there's other elements such as execution, baiting, terrain usage, siege management, etc. where skill comes in.

Yakidafi · August 2015

A skill is the learned ability to carry out a task with pre-determined results often within a given amount of time, energy, or both[citation needed]. In other words, the abilities that one possesses. Skills can often be divided into domain-general and domain-specific skills. For example, in the domain of work, some general skills would include time management, teamwork and leadership, self motivation and others, whereas domain-specific skills would be useful only for a certain job. Skill usually requires certain environmental stimuli and situations to assess the level of skill being shown and used.

Mastery pertains to perfecting a particular skill set. To reach mastery, authors Malcolm Gladwell and Robert Greene claim that 10,000 hours of work will have to be put into training

The definition of a skill is a talent or ability that comes from training or practice.

The ability to do something well.

While MMOs and games like these are very gear dependent, there is always skill involved somehow. Hard to know who got more though if that is the desired knowledge.

If everyone were running around with same gear and abilities then you could more easily see difference in skill.

Ezareth · August 2015

Vizier wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Well can't all video games in this genre be relegated to not needing skill, but knowledge?

I mean, it's not like you have to have a special ability or training to hit keys, especially when the game is literally telling you at what point to hit those keys.

I think the real skill comes from strategy and anticipating the overall momentum of battles.

Getting to a keep and setting up defenses before the enemy gets there, ambushing, flanking etc are the only examples of "skill", but even then isn't that more tactical knowledge of battle than skill?

While I agree with much of what Rylana said. I mean for crying out loud there are addons that tell you when to block, dodge, counter, etc... Truly problematic IMO. That said I just don't agree that there is no skill involved. Ezereth and other elite players have shown that and I don't believe it's all just about exploiting Nirn and such. (true for some for sure.) I mean for instance I think at some point I sniped at Ezereth from stealth and he was off his horse and charging me before my arrow was half way to him. THAT kind of skill and reaction time make me smile even as I'm dying. lol.

@yodased you really are seconding my thoughts here. Situational awareness is IMO one of the most important skills a player can develop. Seeing and understanding the ebb and flow of battles and being able to anticipate what is going to happen is key to survival, especially for solo and small group pvp players.

This one is interesting. How would he do that? When I am very concentrated, I can dodge the very first attack as well, but the problem I then face is that the sniper enters stealth again. So my usual tactic is to either just let the first arrow hit my Defensive Rune, or, when I suspect several gankers, take it with Hardened Ward.
@Ezareth

@ToRelax

With these types of things it's always difficult to say. It could be one of the addons that tells a player in real time what is happening by flashing words in bold on the screen to dodge, block etc. I've seen where it "appears" that "some" players just "know" when they are being targeted. Call me crazy but I'm just saying that's the way it appears. I don't know...

Here's the way I look at a situation like the one I described though. Since that kind of response from a target happens so damn rarely I'm inclined to believe it's not an addon and if it is very few are showing the aptitude to utilize it like that. When being sniped you can hear the bolt coming if have quality audio. Additionally sometimes there is a little indication that you are entering combat with the screen border. The game does give cues as to what is going on. If I can dodge an ambush attack when the attacker is in stealth and from the rear (sometimes) then the above is not out of the realm of possibility for someone with intense situational awareness. Remember you can dismount instantly by casting an instant cast spell or ability. I think he cast cloak when he heard my arrow, acquired me as a target. I usually cloak just as my arrow strikes but this response threw me off and I was caught flat footed. I was then charged/abush struck to death very quickly since that character has terrible HP pool and mitigation.

I love engaging folks with skills. For the most part I'm fodder for them but it's how I can gauge where I'm at as a player. A good player is typically not an "easy" gank. Patience and timing. People hate it but they don't see what goes into some kills. They think oh you just buffed up and hit snipe, hvy attack, venom arrow, lt attack. They see the last five seconds. They didn't see you tracking them for for several minutes in stealth, staying with them while they are ahead on horse or bolting etc. Moving up and back buffing up out of earshot to be ready and then striking once their guard/shields/protection spells, etc come down. Sometimes you have only a second or two to get the hit before protections are back in place because "THAT is what GOOD PLAYERS DO!."
==================
I think there are seriously valid points being made on all sides of this discussion. It's nice to see. With regard to the notion that muscle memory and situational awareness aren't "skillz" I would refer folks to just about anything else we refer to as skill. Playing a musical instrument, Basketball, football, baseball, soccer etc..., shooting, drawing, painting. No I understand the human body is very complex and for instance playing a Trumpet requires more than pushing down 3 keys and blowing into the end. It takes, breath control, a trained embouchure etc, but like that playing a game like this isn't as simple as "pushing down keys." How many people fight and get flustered when in pvp? So much so they can barely do anything more than spam their spells, whereas some cats are cool as cucumbers, pull off timed combos while using terrain and read their enemies such that they are always hitting a group where they can do the most damage by prioritizing targets based on skill, level, remaining hp etc. Sorry, but THAT is skillz IMHO.

The problem with this game IMO is ZoS unimaginably disconnected approach to fixes and balancing. They introduce a system designed to replace VR because VR was proving to be jacked. THEN they DON"T bleeping replace VR! How can they balance CP without first getting rid of VR since it's designed to exist without it? And how long has Nirn-honed been a problem? or sharpened maces? Or some particular exploitable bugs that some use for virtually 100% damage mitigation etc etc and the list GOES ON! Things that should be priorities to fix and balance aren't and it's obvious. And then we have to see utterly stupid PvP "fixes" like blanket nerfs to damage etc, which don't actually fix the problems but rather increases the importance of FOTM exploitive builds and reduces the viability of other more mundane and traditional builds and playstyles!

I'm a huge TES ESO fan, but ZoS doesn't deserve my Sub at this point...they just don't.

So sorry for this wall of text. Intended this to be a one paragraph response but.....

@ToRelax

For my first 2 months of ESO I PvP'ed solo...never grouped once until Murder Thumbs whispered me one day after noticing I was a decent player (for that time). After running with him and several other skilled players I learned a lot of ton of things about "Macro" or larger scale combat in Cyrodiil and I excelled quickly as a player. Then I felt I hit a wall after about 3 or 4 months of group combat as I realized I had hit the group combat skill plateau. Individual or what I term "Micro" skills are not honed very well when your group members supplement your weaknesses and there are few noticeable learning opportunities when someone else covers for you.

This is when I started Solo pvping or "1vXing" as it is termed. I don't do it to make videos to show how great I am. Time and time again I would throw myself into impossible situations to see how I would perform. When I fail I would often analyze footage to determine *why* I failed...and I made adjustments. I feel in those 6 months of solo PvP I became twice the player I was as a group player. I recognized my body would respond to things before I even realized what was happening. I was even accused of utilizing a "Dodge Roll" hack (lol) that automatically dodged attacks because I got so good at this. When you're alone in the "Wild" you will develop these kind of skills as you are ganked over and over or you will die.

So back to the subject at hand:

There is a moments hesistation to your character when you are attacked that you can respond to. My muscle memory tells me to break-free, Tri-pot, Healing ward( or on my nightblade Rally), animation cancel dodge roll and while I'm rolling I'm panning my camera looking for the player with the Bow. On a horse you don't have to worry about the stun unless you're knocked off your horse (obviously a fatal mistake in most situations so when I'm riding I'm constantly watching my stamina and for an indication that I'm being attacked with my finger hovering over my Blur key (to dismount) which I animation cancel into a dodge roll.

Once I identify the person who attacked me on my Nightblade I cast peircing mark on them (I only ride with my sword and board up which has peircing mark slotted for just this reason). It's the first thing I do because I don't want the nightblade to escape. Most gankers are used to players acting defensively when they get the jump on them so I use that assumption against them and go offense instead. 95% of gankers will panic and make a ton of mistakes the moment you turn the tables on them and attack. Once the nightblade is marked and identified I'm alternating between sprinting towards them and watching for the snipe arrows to dodge roll and right after I time my crit-charge at them for right after I roll. Once I'm on top of them I'll bash them which will interrupt snipe if they're still casting and with CPs it will also slow them. After that it's pretty much GG as they're marked and usually in a build that isn't designed for toe-to-toe combat while I'm running a build that is designed to kill most nightblades.

I did much the same on my sorc except I ran double magelight for the sole reason of killing nightblades.

As you said, to me (and most of the rest of the world) muscle-memory *IS* skill. If you look at any top competitor out there in any direct competition sport or game you're going to find the #1 skill they have is reflex and muscle memory.

I think the players who are saying that the skill ceiling in this game is very low are just players who will never improve and who try to justify their lack of competitiveness by creating excuses with things like X player has a better computer, X player is using exploits/hacks, X player has a better ping, more CPs, "Cheese build" etc..

I've said this so many times in the past and I'll reiterate. I learn things almost every day I play this game. Most of them are subconscious, many of them I realize consciously but after 130+ days playing this game almost exclusively in Cyrodiil I still find myself learning and improving....and I've yet to play a Templar or a Dragonnight. To say the Skill-level in this game is low is to limit yourself to your own perceived "ceiling".

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2015

Well skill is real ...... just not in PvP all in PvP is spamming OP skills (flame lash, crystal fragments, RD, ambush and so on) , cookie cutter builds (infa DK tank, Sorc shield stackers, and so on), and zerg trains all using 2 or 3 skills eating any 1 or 2 guys they find minding there own time.

Phoenix99 · August 2015

Araxleon wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

The game, requires _some_ skill, but the skill ceiling is very low.

Majority of fight outcomes is based on the build/gear/number of CPs and their allocation.

There is no true aim, there are also target locks
Skills are spammable, so there is no tactical decision and "baiting" the skill usage of the opponent.
Given the amount of CPs and quality of gear, there is no resource management, you outregen the skill usage.

the only thing near the skill is the use of terrain and some co-ordinated bomb squad, that's it...

a guy with 0 CP and all regular dropped green items will never beat a guy in crafted sets of gold and 300+ CPs... he won't even tickle him before his resources will run out.

I beat someone with 600 more CP than me (im in 100s) and he was built around the CP system.

sooo its possible.

what gear did you have and did you use high end consumables? I clearly said that both gear AND CPs make a difference that can't be overridden by no mater how skilled you are. As for the CP difference alone, it is possible if it is CP points ALONE and you get some good fast burst (some classes are better at that than others), but it is hardly the skill, more of a class match ups and certain builds being better for fighting other builds.

Post video, and post specs of both heroes, then we can all see how much of this mythical "skill" was involved...

Ezareth · August 2015

Phoenix99 wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

The game, requires _some_ skill, but the skill ceiling is very low.

Majority of fight outcomes is based on the build/gear/number of CPs and their allocation.

There is no true aim, there are also target locks
Skills are spammable, so there is no tactical decision and "baiting" the skill usage of the opponent.
Given the amount of CPs and quality of gear, there is no resource management, you outregen the skill usage.

the only thing near the skill is the use of terrain and some co-ordinated bomb squad, that's it...

a guy with 0 CP and all regular dropped green items will never beat a guy in crafted sets of gold and 300+ CPs... he won't even tickle him before his resources will run out.

I beat someone with 600 more CP than me (im in 100s) and he was built around the CP system.

sooo its possible.

what gear did you have and did you use high end consumables? I clearly said that both gear AND CPs make a difference that can't be overridden by no mater how skilled you are. As for the CP difference alone, it is possible if it is CP points ALONE and you get some good fast burst (some classes are better at that than others), but it is hardly the skill, more of a class match ups and certain builds being better for fighting other builds.

Post video, and post specs of both heroes, then we can all see how much of this mythical "skill" was involved...

Seriously....

If someone has freaking 600 CPs then he obviously is wearing a great set of full legendary gear. Rest assured whoever he was, he was decked to the 9s.

Araxleon is one of the best nightblades I know, and the best magicka nightblade hands down that I've fought. He is very skilled at PvP which you would know if you've ever run into him on the battlefield.

There are a examples of players killing emperors solo as an obvious example of skill. 500 CPs doesn't come close to giving as much benefit as emperor does. I've mentioned before I know people who have lost the majority of fights against another player with a CP disparity just as great.

Darnathian · August 2015

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I have to disagree to an extent. There are plenty players who are extremely skilled at this game.

Ezareth wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

I think most of the sorcs running the most powerful build these days copied Germantrocities build with Destro + Resto with streak which is the oldest playstyle (and boring to me) in the game. He added daedric mines + dawnbreaker to the combo with entropy for spellpower + MOTG. It is very effective though but I agree it doesn't take much skill to execute it as its strength all lies in the stats and power of the build and it is extremely easy to execute and perform well against most players. Still you can easily identify A copycat running the build and a player with true skill. Copycats will fire their dawnbreaker way too early, or they'll forget to refresh their shields or they'll focus the wrong targets instead of correctly identifying the right targets to attack.

I'm not trying to uplift myself or downplay anyone else here but I just disagree with a lot of what you're saying there. My build would probably be much less effective today than it was 3 months ago unless I made some adjustments to it with the knowledge I've gained since then.

What pisses me off is in 2.1, skill becomes far less of a factor due to the nerfs to dodge roll and block. They've just removed two major components to combat that were powerful when used correctly and made the game far more about maxing damage and passive defense than anything else.

God I remember when we used to destroy people pre 1.6 as Sorcs. And everyone always doubted Sorcs, always. Now look at what Sorcs have become. Everyone running the Engine Guardian build ;P
While I have enjoyed my time killing all of the copycats, and being a general nuisance as I always have been in Cyrodiil on my Sorc, it's time to play something a bit more challenging. I think Sorc has become far too easy, and its lost the charm it had pre 1.6 and the beginning of 1.6. Everyone rolled one, everyone put on Engine Guardian/Healer/Seducer, and poured all their points into bastion, believing they were now god-mode. It's lovely to put them in their place, and humorous to watch them fail at tactics and the such.

I digress, though. There is skill that comes into play in this game. A lot of what Ezareth has pointed out defines what I also believe to be skill. Positioning, knowing when to dodge, when to block, who to focus, to be aware of your surroundings, to know when and when to not use certain skills, to be able to finish off a final burst flawlessly, etc. etc. Skilled players will absorb what they learn open world, and adjust their builds to accommodate any situation that may arise. I hear players cry a lot about not wanting to specify builds to beat certain classes. A skilled player shapes his build around being able to handle any class at any time in Cyrodiil. Copycats will fail at this, the skilled players will succeed. It will be the same way in 1.7, just as it was when 1.6 hit.

I have to agree with the final point here. As a player who actively dodges when needed, blocks when needed, and is generally aware of her surroundings, this is going to suck, for lack of better words. However, I do see where there will be some more complicity added to how to handle outnumbered situations and the such.

But we'll see what the final result will be.

Overall, however, I do think skill goes into this game, but I think the skilled players are very rare. Just my opinion on the matter.

I chalk it up more to just experience and familiarity. Give them time and they will get all the nuances and so on. Ive had a lot of fun wrecking the rerolls too (especially the inevitable-curse-soul assault people that got that poor tip from an infamous video), and i was NEVER the engine/healer/seducer. Ive always been the 3100 spell damage spiker sorc that will rock you for 17-20k out of nowhere. Know what I mean? Something that not everyone uses, but probably will or have and I missed it.

I dunno, i remember fighting a whole bunch of sorcs back in 1.5 on my DK, i am pretty sure thats where we started talking more than just a little bit when I was hanging around in chillrend TS. I remember how stupid OP DK was and how I was taking on 4 sorcs for 10+ minutes because reasons. Honestly to me it wasnt so much i felt skilled as i was just hitting things to delay or prevent the inevitable, dragging it out as best I could. That and at the time DKs were just that dang strong vs most sorcs.

Ill be completely honest, even those times where ive somehow managed to wreck 10 people by myself on a keep inner or even in open field... i dont feel like its an abundance of "skillful mastery" so to speak, more like those I was fighting werent informed on the proper counters to what i was doing. Put one guy that knows what hes doing into a fight like that, and it completely shifts the balance.

So i dunno, just rambling after a long night of PvP with mixed emotions about the future of the game. I dont think anything any of us are doing today is anything special. No offense to anyone either.

But that experience and familiarity with the game goes into the equation of skill. Of course, just my opinion, and dependent on how wants to define what skill really is.

Ah, I know you were never in that build. German and I used that build before all the sorcs using it now in 1.6, and it's just funny to see everyone running it, and how easy it is to kill them. I moved away from that build and still kill them with ease. Just a humorous pointing out.

DKs used to be ridiculous. A good DK rarely fell unless overwhelmed, and even then still was a pain to take down. The meta shifted to Sorc, it will shift to something else again.

I do feel the mixed emotions, though, I've felt them too. Perhaps the enraged feelings are from seeing unskilled players being able to kill players they should have no chance to kill by using broken crap that ZoS neglects to fix, or using exploits, etc. Maybe that's why it doesn't feel there's any skill left in this game. Idk.

Thank you for honesty. I am waking away from the game because of that. This new breed of copycat sorcs are rediculous. Brand new toons destroying players that have been playing since launch because of that stupid build and then crap talking and tea bagging. No thanks. Anyone know what's the next good MMO coming out pvp based?

DisgracefulMind · August 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I have to disagree to an extent. There are plenty players who are extremely skilled at this game.

Ezareth wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

I think most of the sorcs running the most powerful build these days copied Germantrocities build with Destro + Resto with streak which is the oldest playstyle (and boring to me) in the game. He added daedric mines + dawnbreaker to the combo with entropy for spellpower + MOTG. It is very effective though but I agree it doesn't take much skill to execute it as its strength all lies in the stats and power of the build and it is extremely easy to execute and perform well against most players. Still you can easily identify A copycat running the build and a player with true skill. Copycats will fire their dawnbreaker way too early, or they'll forget to refresh their shields or they'll focus the wrong targets instead of correctly identifying the right targets to attack.

I'm not trying to uplift myself or downplay anyone else here but I just disagree with a lot of what you're saying there. My build would probably be much less effective today than it was 3 months ago unless I made some adjustments to it with the knowledge I've gained since then.

What pisses me off is in 2.1, skill becomes far less of a factor due to the nerfs to dodge roll and block. They've just removed two major components to combat that were powerful when used correctly and made the game far more about maxing damage and passive defense than anything else.

God I remember when we used to destroy people pre 1.6 as Sorcs. And everyone always doubted Sorcs, always. Now look at what Sorcs have become. Everyone running the Engine Guardian build ;P
While I have enjoyed my time killing all of the copycats, and being a general nuisance as I always have been in Cyrodiil on my Sorc, it's time to play something a bit more challenging. I think Sorc has become far too easy, and its lost the charm it had pre 1.6 and the beginning of 1.6. Everyone rolled one, everyone put on Engine Guardian/Healer/Seducer, and poured all their points into bastion, believing they were now god-mode. It's lovely to put them in their place, and humorous to watch them fail at tactics and the such.

I digress, though. There is skill that comes into play in this game. A lot of what Ezareth has pointed out defines what I also believe to be skill. Positioning, knowing when to dodge, when to block, who to focus, to be aware of your surroundings, to know when and when to not use certain skills, to be able to finish off a final burst flawlessly, etc. etc. Skilled players will absorb what they learn open world, and adjust their builds to accommodate any situation that may arise. I hear players cry a lot about not wanting to specify builds to beat certain classes. A skilled player shapes his build around being able to handle any class at any time in Cyrodiil. Copycats will fail at this, the skilled players will succeed. It will be the same way in 1.7, just as it was when 1.6 hit.

I have to agree with the final point here. As a player who actively dodges when needed, blocks when needed, and is generally aware of her surroundings, this is going to suck, for lack of better words. However, I do see where there will be some more complicity added to how to handle outnumbered situations and the such.

But we'll see what the final result will be.

Overall, however, I do think skill goes into this game, but I think the skilled players are very rare. Just my opinion on the matter.

I chalk it up more to just experience and familiarity. Give them time and they will get all the nuances and so on. Ive had a lot of fun wrecking the rerolls too (especially the inevitable-curse-soul assault people that got that poor tip from an infamous video), and i was NEVER the engine/healer/seducer. Ive always been the 3100 spell damage spiker sorc that will rock you for 17-20k out of nowhere. Know what I mean? Something that not everyone uses, but probably will or have and I missed it.

I dunno, i remember fighting a whole bunch of sorcs back in 1.5 on my DK, i am pretty sure thats where we started talking more than just a little bit when I was hanging around in chillrend TS. I remember how stupid OP DK was and how I was taking on 4 sorcs for 10+ minutes because reasons. Honestly to me it wasnt so much i felt skilled as i was just hitting things to delay or prevent the inevitable, dragging it out as best I could. That and at the time DKs were just that dang strong vs most sorcs.

Ill be completely honest, even those times where ive somehow managed to wreck 10 people by myself on a keep inner or even in open field... i dont feel like its an abundance of "skillful mastery" so to speak, more like those I was fighting werent informed on the proper counters to what i was doing. Put one guy that knows what hes doing into a fight like that, and it completely shifts the balance.

So i dunno, just rambling after a long night of PvP with mixed emotions about the future of the game. I dont think anything any of us are doing today is anything special. No offense to anyone either.

But that experience and familiarity with the game goes into the equation of skill. Of course, just my opinion, and dependent on how wants to define what skill really is.

Ah, I know you were never in that build. German and I used that build before all the sorcs using it now in 1.6, and it's just funny to see everyone running it, and how easy it is to kill them. I moved away from that build and still kill them with ease. Just a humorous pointing out.

DKs used to be ridiculous. A good DK rarely fell unless overwhelmed, and even then still was a pain to take down. The meta shifted to Sorc, it will shift to something else again.

I do feel the mixed emotions, though, I've felt them too. Perhaps the enraged feelings are from seeing unskilled players being able to kill players they should have no chance to kill by using broken crap that ZoS neglects to fix, or using exploits, etc. Maybe that's why it doesn't feel there's any skill left in this game. Idk.

Thank you for honesty. I am waking away from the game because of that. This new breed of copycat sorcs are rediculous. Brand new toons destroying players that have been playing since launch because of that stupid build and then crap talking and tea bagging. No thanks. Anyone know what's the next good MMO coming out pvp based?

I have had spats with you over Sorcs often enough. But my spats are only to defend Sorcerers who are playing legitimately and have been for a long time now. I do take offense when people are crying for nerfs, when the problems are not the skills, they're the builds and the abuse of exploits. I can understand your opinion on the copycat Sorcs running around in Cyrodiil, a lot of them are cocky enough, which is why I always enjoy putting them in their place. But we're not here to discuss skills and metas, and anything of the like.

As for the next MMO, probably Camelot Unchained (:

ToRelax · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Well can't all video games in this genre be relegated to not needing skill, but knowledge?

I mean, it's not like you have to have a special ability or training to hit keys, especially when the game is literally telling you at what point to hit those keys.

I think the real skill comes from strategy and anticipating the overall momentum of battles.

Getting to a keep and setting up defenses before the enemy gets there, ambushing, flanking etc are the only examples of "skill", but even then isn't that more tactical knowledge of battle than skill?

While I agree with much of what Rylana said. I mean for crying out loud there are addons that tell you when to block, dodge, counter, etc... Truly problematic IMO. That said I just don't agree that there is no skill involved. Ezereth and other elite players have shown that and I don't believe it's all just about exploiting Nirn and such. (true for some for sure.) I mean for instance I think at some point I sniped at Ezereth from stealth and he was off his horse and charging me before my arrow was half way to him. THAT kind of skill and reaction time make me smile even as I'm dying. lol.

yodased you really are seconding my thoughts here. Situational awareness is IMO one of the most important skills a player can develop. Seeing and understanding the ebb and flow of battles and being able to anticipate what is going to happen is key to survival, especially for solo and small group pvp players.

This one is interesting. How would he do that? When I am very concentrated, I can dodge the very first attack as well, but the problem I then face is that the sniper enters stealth again. So my usual tactic is to either just let the first arrow hit my Defensive Rune, or, when I suspect several gankers, take it with Hardened Ward.
Ezareth

ToRelax

With these types of things it's always difficult to say. It could be one of the addons that tells a player in real time what is happening by flashing words in bold on the screen to dodge, block etc. I've seen where it "appears" that "some" players just "know" when they are being targeted. Call me crazy but I'm just saying that's the way it appears. I don't know...

Here's the way I look at a situation like the one I described though. Since that kind of response from a target happens so damn rarely I'm inclined to believe it's not an addon and if it is very few are showing the aptitude to utilize it like that. When being sniped you can hear the bolt coming if have quality audio. Additionally sometimes there is a little indication that you are entering combat with the screen border. The game does give cues as to what is going on. If I can dodge an ambush attack when the attacker is in stealth and from the rear (sometimes) then the above is not out of the realm of possibility for someone with intense situational awareness. Remember you can dismount instantly by casting an instant cast spell or ability. I think he cast cloak when he heard my arrow, acquired me as a target. I usually cloak just as my arrow strikes but this response threw me off and I was caught flat footed. I was then charged/abush struck to death very quickly since that character has terrible HP pool and mitigation.

I love engaging folks with skills. For the most part I'm fodder for them but it's how I can gauge where I'm at as a player. A good player is typically not an "easy" gank. Patience and timing. People hate it but they don't see what goes into some kills. They think oh you just buffed up and hit snipe, hvy attack, venom arrow, lt attack. They see the last five seconds. They didn't see you tracking them for for several minutes in stealth, staying with them while they are ahead on horse or bolting etc. Moving up and back buffing up out of earshot to be ready and then striking once their guard/shields/protection spells, etc come down. Sometimes you have only a second or two to get the hit before protections are back in place because "THAT is what GOOD PLAYERS DO!."
==================
I think there are seriously valid points being made on all sides of this discussion. It's nice to see. With regard to the notion that muscle memory and situational awareness aren't "skillz" I would refer folks to just about anything else we refer to as skill. Playing a musical instrument, Basketball, football, baseball, soccer etc..., shooting, drawing, painting. No I understand the human body is very complex and for instance playing a Trumpet requires more than pushing down 3 keys and blowing into the end. It takes, breath control, a trained embouchure etc, but like that playing a game like this isn't as simple as "pushing down keys." How many people fight and get flustered when in pvp? So much so they can barely do anything more than spam their spells, whereas some cats are cool as cucumbers, pull off timed combos while using terrain and read their enemies such that they are always hitting a group where they can do the most damage by prioritizing targets based on skill, level, remaining hp etc. Sorry, but THAT is skillz IMHO.

The problem with this game IMO is ZoS unimaginably disconnected approach to fixes and balancing. They introduce a system designed to replace VR because VR was proving to be jacked. THEN they DON"T bleeping replace VR! How can they balance CP without first getting rid of VR since it's designed to exist without it? And how long has Nirn-honed been a problem? or sharpened maces? Or some particular exploitable bugs that some use for virtually 100% damage mitigation etc etc and the list GOES ON! Things that should be priorities to fix and balance aren't and it's obvious. And then we have to see utterly stupid PvP "fixes" like blanket nerfs to damage etc, which don't actually fix the problems but rather increases the importance of FOTM exploitive builds and reduces the viability of other more mundane and traditional builds and playstyles!

I'm a huge TES ESO fan, but ZoS doesn't deserve my Sub at this point...they just don't.

So sorry for this wall of text. Intended this to be a one paragraph response but.....

[...]
So back to the subject at hand:

There is a moments hesistation to your character when you are attacked that you can respond to. My muscle memory tells me to break-free, Tri-pot, Healing ward( or on my nightblade Rally), animation cancel dodge roll and while I'm rolling I'm panning my camera looking for the player with the Bow. On a horse you don't have to worry about the stun unless you're knocked off your horse (obviously a fatal mistake in most situations so when I'm riding I'm constantly watching my stamina and for an indication that I'm being attacked with my finger hovering over my Blur key (to dismount) which I animation cancel into a dodge roll.

Once I identify the person who attacked me on my Nightblade I cast peircing mark on them (I only ride with my sword and board up which has peircing mark slotted for just this reason). It's the first thing I do because I don't want the nightblade to escape. Most gankers are used to players acting defensively when they get the jump on them so I use that assumption against them and go offense instead. 95% of gankers will panic and make a ton of mistakes the moment you turn the tables on them and attack. Once the nightblade is marked and identified I'm alternating between sprinting towards them and watching for the snipe arrows to dodge roll and right after I time my crit-charge at them for right after I roll. Once I'm on top of them I'll bash them which will interrupt snipe if they're still casting and with CPs it will also slow them. After that it's pretty much GG as they're marked and usually in a build that isn't designed for toe-to-toe combat while I'm running a build that is designed to kill most nightblades.

I did much the same on my sorc except I ran double magelight for the sole reason of killing nightblades.

[...]

Yeah, I usually use Hardened Ward -> dodge roll when I try to not get hit at all. Maybe it's just my perception that most gankers escape when they get the chance, as it wouldn't be exactly hard to break Defensive Rune and escape after I let them "horse-stun" me either - or I'm just not fast enough, who knows.

In fact, I never expected the Rune to be so effective for this kind of thing until I noticed half the NBs don't break it for whatever reason, and still don't to this day. Once I cursed a ganker the fight is usually decided.

Rune_Relic · August 2015

Fenrlr wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Get on my level

He plays without even using the mouse.
No skill!?

He ate the mouse.

aco5712 · August 2015

there is skill in group play. Small group play 8-12. Not in 24 man. Just wanted to say that lol

JaJaLuka · August 2015

Araxleon wrote: »

King Bozo wrote: »

It's all in the wrist.

I have battle scars on my wrist.

Haha, stop. That sounds so creepy, you must be very frustrated

AhPook_Is_Here · August 2015

Wow a philosophical debate on the semantics of ASCI skill in video games. There is no such thing left as trivial in this world.

Soulac · August 2015

I fought and won against a 900cp perm blocking Stamina DK spamming Caltrops and choking detection potions on CD as NB.
This felt like playing against an Emperor DK.. Infinity ressources, crazy dmg and crazy heal.
Simply won by learning and predicting his movements after the first five minutes in our fight.

CP does matter and even a 200cp difference changes a lot, but it doesn't grant a certain win.

Araxleon · August 2015

Phoenix99 wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

The game, requires _some_ skill, but the skill ceiling is very low.

Majority of fight outcomes is based on the build/gear/number of CPs and their allocation.

There is no true aim, there are also target locks
Skills are spammable, so there is no tactical decision and "baiting" the skill usage of the opponent.
Given the amount of CPs and quality of gear, there is no resource management, you outregen the skill usage.

the only thing near the skill is the use of terrain and some co-ordinated bomb squad, that's it...

a guy with 0 CP and all regular dropped green items will never beat a guy in crafted sets of gold and 300+ CPs... he won't even tickle him before his resources will run out.

I beat someone with 600 more CP than me (im in 100s) and he was built around the CP system.

sooo its possible.

what gear did you have and did you use high end consumables? I clearly said that both gear AND CPs make a difference that can't be overridden by no mater how skilled you are. As for the CP difference alone, it is possible if it is CP points ALONE and you get some good fast burst (some classes are better at that than others), but it is hardly the skill, more of a class match ups and certain builds being better for fighting other builds.

Post video, and post specs of both heroes, then we can all see how much of this mythical "skill" was involved...

Im happy to do that, but nobody with 900+ CP are gonna want a video of them losing posted when they are at a complete advantage.
Maybe ill ask said person, but say ima keep it anonymous

Ishammael · August 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Wow a philosophical debate on the semantics of ASCI skill in video games. There is no such thing left as trivial in this world.

Somebody got on my TS one time and declared that he was an studied (as in a degree from a university) expert in "MMO gaming psychology" and that "we [Grunt, Yonkit, me] run our guild wrong." I wish I was joking.

Ezareth · August 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Wow a philosophical debate on the semantics of ASCI skill in video games. There is no such thing left as trivial in this world.

Somebody got on my TS one time and declared that he was an studied (as in a degree from a university) expert in "MMO gaming psychology" and that "we [Grunt, Yonkit, me] run our guild wrong." I wish I was joking.

Everyone's an expert on the internet don't you know?

krim · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Skill is a myth?
Should re-title to: Thread is a lie.

You are speaking about different situations and applying a blanket statement to all of them. Sorry that's just not the case.

By making this thread you are implying a brand new player can (on an even playing field) best a veteran such as myself? That is nonsense. Even if I disabled my CP and gave him 500, it would not help him beat me. Why? Skill.
Even if you boil down all the gear, templates, pvp ranks, etc, factors such as timing, rhythm and overall execution still play a part. Saying they don't is woefully ignorant. I understand the game is not perfect, subject to serious bugs and malfunctions. I also understand some fights are nothing more than a pinata party where you are the center of a gang bang. However implying these isolated situations are the same for all situations is just dishonest. There are a lot of situations where skill plays a major role and you will overcome adversity to being the better player. It's why you see so many 1vX videos or highlight reels.

Before you are tempted about engaging in semantics or equivocation, ask yourself what skill actually is. Because you could take your thread post and apply it to most games, particularly games with an actual high skill curve like DotA 2 and that is just laughable.

You activated my trap card.

You invoked the 1vX videos, and that is exactly what I was waiting for. Look very closely into most, if not all, of the early 1vX videos people cling to. And even many of the more modern ones. What is the common denominator, it is not skill. In nearly every case, the player making the video discovered (knowledge is power) a broken mechanic, something not working as designed, a non-intuitive exploit, something that was way more powerful than it was meant to be, something that then spread and became widespread metagame because OMG SO AWESOME I WANNA BE LIKE DAT GUY.

There is a reason 1vX is starting to die, and its not because of game mechanics changes, its because the knowledge is no longer secret, cookie cutter has become prevalent, and the game is no longer new.

Gone are the days of true emergent gameplay, indeed some of those former players may have indeed had the skills you claim to cherish, one even posted in this thread, someone I have respect for.

But, they have now gone to the wayside as their ace-in-the-hole knowledge no longer determines the outcome of a fight before it has started.

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

wrong

krim · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Skill is a myth?
Should re-title to: Thread is a lie.

You are speaking about different situations and applying a blanket statement to all of them. Sorry that's just not the case.

By making this thread you are implying a brand new player can (on an even playing field) best a veteran such as myself? That is nonsense. Even if I disabled my CP and gave him 500, it would not help him beat me. Why? Skill.
Even if you boil down all the gear, templates, pvp ranks, etc, factors such as timing, rhythm and overall execution still play a part. Saying they don't is woefully ignorant. I understand the game is not perfect, subject to serious bugs and malfunctions. I also understand some fights are nothing more than a pinata party where you are the center of a gang bang. However implying these isolated situations are the same for all situations is just dishonest. There are a lot of situations where skill plays a major role and you will overcome adversity to being the better player. It's why you see so many 1vX videos or highlight reels.

Before you are tempted about engaging in semantics or equivocation, ask yourself what skill actually is. Because you could take your thread post and apply it to most games, particularly games with an actual high skill curve like DotA 2 and that is just laughable.

You activated my trap card.

You invoked the 1vX videos, and that is exactly what I was waiting for. Look very closely into most, if not all, of the early 1vX videos people cling to. And even many of the more modern ones. What is the common denominator, it is not skill. In nearly every case, the player making the video discovered (knowledge is power) a broken mechanic, something not working as designed, a non-intuitive exploit, something that was way more powerful than it was meant to be, something that then spread and became widespread metagame because OMG SO AWESOME I WANNA BE LIKE DAT GUY.

There is a reason 1vX is starting to die, and its not because of game mechanics changes, its because the knowledge is no longer secret, cookie cutter has become prevalent, and the game is no longer new.

Gone are the days of true emergent gameplay, indeed some of those former players may have indeed had the skills you claim to cherish, one even posted in this thread, someone I have respect for.

But, they have now gone to the wayside as their ace-in-the-hole knowledge no longer determines the outcome of a fight before it has started.

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

wrong

Makkir · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Ehhh...I have to disagree but hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

The freedom to disagree is a wonderful thing. You are one of the few people that actually studied the game and its mechanics early, developed that reputation early. Ahead of the curve, and well done.

But now, after everyone has copied all the things you accomplished, do you not see the curve that used to exist homogenizing? Far be it from me to take anything away from you, but youre no longer "the" big fish, everyone else grew up, know what I am saying?

Its just the reality of the game, knowledge has always been power, not skill.

the sheer number of ezareth "clones" i see out there nowadays is testament to that.

@Rylana @Ezareth

When Ez released his build/gear I am sure a lot of people were quick to copy. But, that means they are also running around with about 14-15k health. Sorry, but you need a level of skill to play that build effectively. Maybe some of us define the word skill differently, but there is no way some copy cat is going to effectively play that regen build correctly without getting annihilated on the battlefield. I would call knowing when to reapply shields, block, play defensively versus offensively all part of being skilled.

I run a build just like Ez but I use food instead because I just am not comfortable running below 18k health.

Makkir · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Sorry typing on a phone at Sbux, points can't be expanded upon too much.

Your money skills are pretty weak if you are srsly paying 5 bucks for a coffee

Ezareth · August 2015

Makkir wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Sorry typing on a phone at Sbux, points can't be expanded upon too much.

Your money skills are pretty weak if you are srsly paying 5 bucks for a coffee

@Makkir

A man must have some sort of vice or he is no man at all. To some it is drinking, smoking, gambling, or women. For me it is Lattes. Half of my daily caloric intake and 75% of my protein comes from Lattes.

Last time I checked my monthly spend was north of $600 at coffee shops. Worth every penny IMO ( =

Ishammael · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Sorry typing on a phone at Sbux, points can't be expanded upon too much.

Your money skills are pretty weak if you are srsly paying 5 bucks for a coffee

@Makkir

A man must have some sort of vice or he is no man at all. To some it is drinking, smoking, gambling, or women. For me it is Lattes. Half of my daily caloric intake and 75% of my protein comes from Lattes.

Last time I checked my monthly spend was north of $600 at coffee shops. Worth every penny IMO ( =

I'm not a latte drinker. But I love coffee. Dark and bitter.

Yonkit · August 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Sorry typing on a phone at Sbux, points can't be expanded upon too much.

Your money skills are pretty weak if you are srsly paying 5 bucks for a coffee

@Makkir

A man must have some sort of vice or he is no man at all. To some it is drinking, smoking, gambling, or women. For me it is Lattes. Half of my daily caloric intake and 75% of my protein comes from Lattes.

Last time I checked my monthly spend was north of $600 at coffee shops. Worth every penny IMO ( =

I'm not a latte drinker. But I love coffee. Dark and bitter.

I must concur. Lattes are for casuals.

Makkir · August 2015

Yonkit wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Sorry typing on a phone at Sbux, points can't be expanded upon too much.

Your money skills are pretty weak if you are srsly paying 5 bucks for a coffee

@Makkir

A man must have some sort of vice or he is no man at all. To some it is drinking, smoking, gambling, or women. For me it is Lattes. Half of my daily caloric intake and 75% of my protein comes from Lattes.

Last time I checked my monthly spend was north of $600 at coffee shops. Worth every penny IMO ( =

I'm not a latte drinker. But I love coffee. Dark and bitter.

I must concur. Lattes are for casuals.

And girls....

/ducks

just kiddin!

FluffiestOne · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Sorry typing on a phone at Sbux, points can't be expanded upon too much.

Your money skills are pretty weak if you are srsly paying 5 bucks for a coffee

@Makkir

A man must have some sort of vice or he is no man at all. To some it is drinking, smoking, gambling, or women. For me it is Lattes. Half of my daily caloric intake and 75% of my protein comes from Lattes.

Last time I checked my monthly spend was north of $600 at coffee shops. Worth every penny IMO ( =

Casual alert.

There is only one good energy drink, and that is protein.

Get your flex on.

/CallingPublius

FluffiestOne · August 2015

derp double post!