Skill is a Myth

Rylana

All the time on these forums I hear people talk about skill factoring into battles, how skill determines X, how skill should determine Y, and I find myself more often than not rolling my eyes at the screen.

Why? Because there is no actual skill curve in this game. At best there is a knowledge of point counterpoint but that is about the limit. A simple study of what individual class abilities, effects, and the like will quickly close that gap, so what is this mythical skill people blabber about so much.

From what I can tell there are four main factors to success in PvP in ESO.

1. Group oriented mentality, whether it be small or large, a toolbar equipped for the role. No real skill in that, just put stuff on bar and push it when needed. In fact, the most successful groups consist of a leader that has about 20 robots on follow just doing whatever he says to do. Skill = 0.
2. Like minded teammates towards a goal. Again, no skill required, this is a social thing and/or politics etc.
3. How many broken/gimped cheese abilities you know about and how many you use. Nirn, dawnbreaker, mundus, animation bugs, lag generation, blah blah blah this list goes on for days. Lumped in with this is how quickly you obtain such cheese and use it first, the earlier the more of a legend you become, everyone will copy you and call it skilled emergent gameplay.
4. Knowing when to line of sight, knowing your own limits, etc. Possibly the only semblance of actual skill in the game, but really for anyone who has played MMOs or FPS for any length of time, this is just second nature, survival instinct, duck and cover, reaction, etc. If this is the sole proponent of the mythical skill, then everyone that has ever popped a tripot when they took some damage or stepped out of a siege circle is the epitome of a skilled player arent they.

Basically my point is that this game is about as far from difficult to learn and master as you can get. Five active abilities, one of the simplest crafting/minmax systems I have ever seen (stack moar regen or spell power, there are only actually four total stats in the game that matter, pick two and max em out) and an ultimate that basically amounts to the only important ability you carry (moar barriers pl0x)

So what gives with all of the threads lately screaming about vet player this, newbie player that, this game is too hard, plz nerf this or that. Hasnt it been dumbed down enough? The 1.6 rebalancing was bad enough, but this garbage on the PTS is just borderline silly. Not to mention the crying about CP, death penalty (telvar), and forced PvP (in a game where nearly every progression is already forced PvE).

Give up the carebear routine, everyone dies, even the immortal Rylana (a lot more than id care to share, leeroyyyy jenkinsss). The guy that killed you, or me, or the tree, is no more skilled than the numbnuts standing next to him that didnt do anything at all. He pushed buttons, probably stacked one stat, and is chock full of cheesey mechanics just to get his epeen off.

But never label that as skilled gameplay. Nor tout it like it is.

There are no super seekrits in this game. Everyone knows (and if you didnt already) that the most "skilled" players are the ones using the most broken stuff, maxing out one stat, and just running with it. Videos optional.

SirAndy

Rylana wrote: »

But never label that as skilled gameplay. Nor tout it like it is.

Ezareth

Ehhh...I have to disagree but hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Rylana

Ezareth wrote: »

Ehhh...I have to disagree but hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

The freedom to disagree is a wonderful thing. You are one of the few people that actually studied the game and its mechanics early, developed that reputation early. Ahead of the curve, and well done.

But now, after everyone has copied all the things you accomplished, do you not see the curve that used to exist homogenizing? Far be it from me to take anything away from you, but youre no longer "the" big fish, everyone else grew up, know what I am saying?

Its just the reality of the game, knowledge has always been power, not skill.

the sheer number of ezareth "clones" i see out there nowadays is testament to that.

FENGRUSH

Sounds like a personal attack aimed at FENGRUSH. Your attempts to diminish His Lordship have been duly noted.

Rylana

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Sounds like a personal attack aimed at FENGRUSH. Your attempts to diminish His Lordship have been duly noted.

We shall do glorious battle at Bleakers porch again Soon(tm)

Non legit magicka sorc my ass

But no, its nothing personal towards anyone. Observation and reaction based on the culture of the community over the last several months.

Kloud

Even walking takes a certain amount of skill and yes there's people that walk better then you do.

sadownik

I am by no means a famous or even good player so forgive me if i add my 5 cents.

ESO is pretty simpistic when it comes to combat mechanics in my opinion, be it pve or pvp. The only challenge is in setting your character right but since "mini-maxers" post many of the good builds that issue is much more easy than some people think.

Frankly speaking in pvp i feel like im fighting more with the game itself than with other players - non responsive bar change, skills not fireing or fireing with high delay, players who utilse uhm "unexpected use of game mechanics" are the most difficult things to overcome. Besides that its just numbers.

That not to say there are players that due to expirience have much better situation awarness but yes, i do agree that there isnt that much skill needed in ESO than people tend to paint.

Ezareth

Rylana wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Ehhh...I have to disagree but hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

The freedom to disagree is a wonderful thing. You are one of the few people that actually studied the game and its mechanics early, developed that reputation early. Ahead of the curve, and well done.

But now, after everyone has copied all the things you accomplished, do you not see the curve that used to exist homogenizing? Far be it from me to take anything away from you, but youre no longer "the" big fish, everyone else grew up, know what I am saying?

Its just the reality of the game, knowledge has always been power, not skill.

the sheer number of ezareth "clones" i see out there nowadays is testament to that.

Everyone is always going to copy builds and tactics that they find powerful and they will have success with them, more so than they would have with their own randomly thrown together build. These players kill more and are harder to kill sure but that's not skilled.

When I ran into a player last night and butchered him and his group alobg with several others multiple times he asked "how did I get so good?" I told him simply....I've played a very long time and have deep knowledge of the game and classes. I said that I felt 70% of the success of a player is build and stats, 20% pure skill in performing the correct action at the correct time and 10% strategy which is a combination of influencing your opponents into doing what you want then to do and utilizing the element of surprise when necessary.

That 20% is not insignificant. Knowing what to do at the right time without *thinking* is something that only comes from repetition. This is why I love throwing myself into difficult or impossible situations because you learn the most when you are not successful and even knowing what the right thing to do should have been does not mean you actually did it.

Sorry typing on a phone at Sbux, points can't be expanded upon too much.

Kloud

Ezareth wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Ehhh...I have to disagree but hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

The freedom to disagree is a wonderful thing. You are one of the few people that actually studied the game and its mechanics early, developed that reputation early. Ahead of the curve, and well done.

But now, after everyone has copied all the things you accomplished, do you not see the curve that used to exist homogenizing? Far be it from me to take anything away from you, but youre no longer "the" big fish, everyone else grew up, know what I am saying?

Its just the reality of the game, knowledge has always been power, not skill.

the sheer number of ezareth "clones" i see out there nowadays is testament to that.

Everyone is always going to copy builds and tactics that they find powerful and they will have success with them, more so than they would have with their own randomly thrown together build. These players kill more and are harder to kill sure but that's not skilled.

When I ran into a player last night and butchered him and his group alobg with several others multiple times he asked "how did I get so good?" I told him simply....I've played a very long time and have deep knowledge of the game and classes. I said that I felt 70% of the success of a player is build and stats, 20% pure skill in performing the correct action at the correct time and 10% strategy which is a combination of influencing your opponents into doing what you want then to do and utilizing the element of surprise when necessary.

That 20% is not insignificant. Knowing what to do at the right time without *thinking* is something that only comes from repetition. This is why I love throwing myself into difficult or impossible situations because you learn the most when you are not successful and even knowing what the right thing to do should have been does not mean you actually did it.

Sorry typing on a phone at Sbux, points can't be expanded upon too much.

Well spoken agree 100%

Publius_Scipio

I have to agree with a lot here. Some skill does come into play, but generally speaking I don't think ESO was created to really be a game of focus and sweat droplets above the brow. It's an alliance war melee group fest, fun for all affair.

90% of everything you see in these 1vX videos are handed to the players on build, gear, and champ points alone now. Give someone relatively new to this game 2,000 champ points right now. I would bet that person would defeat most if not all of the most famous (I laugh) that exist in the game today.

Publius_Scipio

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Sounds like a personal attack aimed at FENGRUSH. Your attempts to diminish His Lordship have been duly noted.

I am growing to like you and appreciate your presence on the forums.

Lorkhan

Rylana wrote: »

All the time on these forums I hear people talk about skill factoring into battles, how skill determines X, how skill should determine Y, and I find myself more often than not rolling my eyes at the screen.

Why? Because there is no actual skill curve in this game. At best there is a knowledge of point counterpoint but that is about the limit. A simple study of what individual class abilities, effects, and the like will quickly close that gap, so what is this mythical skill people blabber about so much.

From what I can tell there are four main factors to success in PvP in ESO.

1. Group oriented mentality, whether it be small or large, a toolbar equipped for the role. No real skill in that, just put stuff on bar and push it when needed. In fact, the most successful groups consist of a leader that has about 20 robots on follow just doing whatever he says to do. Skill = 0.
2. Like minded teammates towards a goal. Again, no skill required, this is a social thing and/or politics etc.
3. How many broken/gimped cheese abilities you know about and how many you use. Nirn, dawnbreaker, mundus, animation bugs, lag generation, blah blah blah this list goes on for days. Lumped in with this is how quickly you obtain such cheese and use it first, the earlier the more of a legend you become, everyone will copy you and call it skilled emergent gameplay.
4. Knowing when to line of sight, knowing your own limits, etc. Possibly the only semblance of actual skill in the game, but really for anyone who has played MMOs or FPS for any length of time, this is just second nature, survival instinct, duck and cover, reaction, etc. If this is the sole proponent of the mythical skill, then everyone that has ever popped a tripot when they took some damage or stepped out of a siege circle is the epitome of a skilled player arent they.

Basically my point is that this game is about as far from difficult to learn and master as you can get. Five active abilities, one of the simplest crafting/minmax systems I have ever seen (stack moar regen or spell power, there are only actually four total stats in the game that matter, pick two and max em out) and an ultimate that basically amounts to the only important ability you carry (moar barriers pl0x)

So what gives with all of the threads lately screaming about vet player this, newbie player that, this game is too hard, plz nerf this or that. Hasnt it been dumbed down enough? The 1.6 rebalancing was bad enough, but this garbage on the PTS is just borderline silly. Not to mention the crying about CP, death penalty (telvar), and forced PvP (in a game where nearly every progression is already forced PvE).

Give up the carebear routine, everyone dies, even the immortal Rylana (a lot more than id care to share, leeroyyyy jenkinsss). The guy that killed you, or me, or the tree, is no more skilled than the numbnuts standing next to him that didnt do anything at all. He pushed buttons, probably stacked one stat, and is chock full of cheesey mechanics just to get his epeen off.

But never label that as skilled gameplay. Nor tout it like it is.

There are no super seekrits in this game. Everyone knows (and if you didnt already) that the most "skilled" players are the ones using the most broken stuff, maxing out one stat, and just running with it. Videos optional.

let me guess: someone stole your sweetroll?

Mythk

Is this thread aimed at hating against groups that think they are skilled, or skilled players as individuals? (or I guess lack therof of skill as an individual as people try to put it)

yodased

Well can't all video games in this genre be relegated to not needing skill, but knowledge?

I mean, it's not like you have to have a special ability or training to hit keys, especially when the game is literally telling you at what point to hit those keys.

I think the real skill comes from strategy and anticipating the overall momentum of battles.

Getting to a keep and setting up defenses before the enemy gets there, ambushing, flanking etc are the only examples of "skill", but even then isn't that more tactical knowledge of battle than skill?

QuebraRegra

Skilled players are few and far between, almost like unicorns, but more like this:


Many will claim to be unicorns, or skilled, but most are really just goat-a-corns. :P

Xael

Skill is a myth?
Should re-title to: Thread is a lie.

You are speaking about different situations and applying a blanket statement to all of them. Sorry that's just not the case.

By making this thread you are implying a brand new player can (on an even playing field) best a veteran such as myself? That is nonsense. Even if I disabled my CP and gave him 500, it would not help him beat me. Why? Skill.
Even if you boil down all the gear, templates, pvp ranks, etc, factors such as timing, rhythm and overall execution still play a part. Saying they don't is woefully ignorant. I understand the game is not perfect, subject to serious bugs and malfunctions. I also understand some fights are nothing more than a pinata party where you are the center of a gang bang. However implying these isolated situations are the same for all situations is just dishonest. There are a lot of situations where skill plays a major role and you will overcome adversity to being the better player. It's why you see so many 1vX videos or highlight reels.

Before you are tempted about engaging in semantics or equivocation, ask yourself what skill actually is. Because you could take your thread post and apply it to most games, particularly games with an actual high skill curve like DotA 2 and that is just laughable.

Rylana

Xael wrote: »

Skill is a myth?
Should re-title to: Thread is a lie.

You are speaking about different situations and applying a blanket statement to all of them. Sorry that's just not the case.

By making this thread you are implying a brand new player can (on an even playing field) best a veteran such as myself? That is nonsense. Even if I disabled my CP and gave him 500, it would not help him beat me. Why? Skill.
Even if you boil down all the gear, templates, pvp ranks, etc, factors such as timing, rhythm and overall execution still play a part. Saying they don't is woefully ignorant. I understand the game is not perfect, subject to serious bugs and malfunctions. I also understand some fights are nothing more than a pinata party where you are the center of a gang bang. However implying these isolated situations are the same for all situations is just dishonest. There are a lot of situations where skill plays a major role and you will overcome adversity to being the better player. It's why you see so many 1vX videos or highlight reels.

Before you are tempted about engaging in semantics or equivocation, ask yourself what skill actually is. Because you could take your thread post and apply it to most games, particularly games with an actual high skill curve like DotA 2 and that is just laughable.

You activated my trap card.

You invoked the 1vX videos, and that is exactly what I was waiting for. Look very closely into most, if not all, of the early 1vX videos people cling to. And even many of the more modern ones. What is the common denominator, it is not skill. In nearly every case, the player making the video discovered (knowledge is power) a broken mechanic, something not working as designed, a non-intuitive exploit, something that was way more powerful than it was meant to be, something that then spread and became widespread metagame because OMG SO AWESOME I WANNA BE LIKE DAT GUY.

There is a reason 1vX is starting to die, and its not because of game mechanics changes, its because the knowledge is no longer secret, cookie cutter has become prevalent, and the game is no longer new.

Gone are the days of true emergent gameplay, indeed some of those former players may have indeed had the skills you claim to cherish, one even posted in this thread, someone I have respect for.

But, they have now gone to the wayside as their ace-in-the-hole knowledge no longer determines the outcome of a fight before it has started.

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

Ezareth

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I have to agree with a lot here. Some skill does come into play, but generally speaking I don't think ESO was created to really be a game of focus and sweat droplets above the brow. It's an alliance war melee group fest, fun for all affair.

90% of everything you see in these 1vX videos are handed to the players on build, gear, and champ points alone now. Give someone relatively new to this game 2,000 champ points right now. I would bet that person would defeat most if not all of the most famous (I laugh) that exist in the game today.

I don't agree with that at all. I or any other skilled player out there would wreck another player with 2000 champion points if they were new to the game.

I think we all just have different understandings of "skill". There is always a big difference between a player who learns and adapts and a player who continues with the same failed strategy and playstyle time and time over no matter how unsuccessful they are with it.

In the martial arts skill is something that is improved through repetition alone by achieving a state of "no mind". ESO is similar. Beyond that there is the inherent reaction times of the individual and their physical limitations (both of which can be improved but are limited by the individual). Some people are faster learners than others and require far less repetition, we call them "naturals".

In ESO reaction times matter but have a ceiling that is enforced by the games GCD system. People can push that envelope somewhat by utilizing animation cancelling to fill in the time between the actions with a GCD.

At professional level RTS gameplay the most "skilled" players have insane reaction times and APM but they practice 8-12 hours a day keeping themselves on top of their game. You could say something similar about them not being skilled...but what really is skill if not for doing the right thing at the right time?

ESO has a skill plateau that is far lower than say SCII but with that said I haven't seen the perfect player yet and I myself still find myself learning something and getting better every day I play.

Xael

Rylana wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Skill is a myth?
Should re-title to: Thread is a lie.

You are speaking about different situations and applying a blanket statement to all of them. Sorry that's just not the case.

By making this thread you are implying a brand new player can (on an even playing field) best a veteran such as myself? That is nonsense. Even if I disabled my CP and gave him 500, it would not help him beat me. Why? Skill.
Even if you boil down all the gear, templates, pvp ranks, etc, factors such as timing, rhythm and overall execution still play a part. Saying they don't is woefully ignorant. I understand the game is not perfect, subject to serious bugs and malfunctions. I also understand some fights are nothing more than a pinata party where you are the center of a gang bang. However implying these isolated situations are the same for all situations is just dishonest. There are a lot of situations where skill plays a major role and you will overcome adversity to being the better player. It's why you see so many 1vX videos or highlight reels.

Before you are tempted about engaging in semantics or equivocation, ask yourself what skill actually is. Because you could take your thread post and apply it to most games, particularly games with an actual high skill curve like DotA 2 and that is just laughable.

You activated my trap card.

You invoked the 1vX videos, and that is exactly what I was waiting for. Look very closely into most, if not all, of the early 1vX videos people cling to. And even many of the more modern ones. What is the common denominator, it is not skill. In nearly every case, the player making the video discovered (knowledge is power) a broken mechanic, something not working as designed, a non-intuitive exploit, something that then spread and became widespread metagame because OMG SO AWESOME I WANNA BE LIKE DAT GUY.

There is a reason 1vX is starting to die, and its not because of game mechanics changes, its because the knowledge is no longer secret, cookie cutter has become prevalent, and the game is no longer new.

Gone are the days of true emergent gameplay, indeed some of those former players may have indeed had the skills you claim to cherish, one even posted in this thread, someone I have respect for.

But, they have now gone to the wayside as their ace-in-the-hole knowledge no longer determines the outcome of a fight before it has started.

What in the world are you talking about?
You just implied every 1vX video maker is using some secret knowledge or exploit to have an unfair advantage over others. This reasoning is absurd. You are essentially creating a construct and forcing everyone to reason from within it. No thanks.

For the record, dodge rolling is not an exploit. Knowing when to block is not an exploit. Being quicker than your opponent is not an exploit. Thinking outside the box is not an exploit. If you don't think knowledge and skill play a hand in hand role, you are deceiving yourself. By the way, 1vX is not dying, there are more videos of it now than ever. Moreover what I find hilarious is most people "know" about stuff, yet lack the skill to pull it off which kind of shoots a big hole in your argument. It's why you see so few that actually stand out. I asked you not to try and equivocate or shuffle semantics and it's the first thing you did.

Araxleon

Rylana wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Ehhh...I have to disagree but hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

The freedom to disagree is a wonderful thing. You are one of the few people that actually studied the game and its mechanics early, developed that reputation early. Ahead of the curve, and well done.

But now, after everyone has copied all the things you accomplished, do you not see the curve that used to exist homogenizing? Far be it from me to take anything away from you, but youre no longer "the" big fish, everyone else grew up, know what I am saying?

Its just the reality of the game, knowledge has always been power, not skill.

the sheer number of ezareth "clones" i see out there nowadays is testament to that.

man I have to disagree,

I don't know if you remember a thread awhile back about a guy asking for a duel, everyone was saying he exploits mechanics etc. and I agreed to fight, now I was aware he had about 600 more CP than me I didnt really care I like fun/challenges.

Now said person was a really good player! but he used mechanics that were broken, Alot of people have been doing it mainly perma blocking, nirn and a few other things I wouldn't wanna share. ( you most likely know them already)

out of 5 fights I won 2 which did take skill to manage the perma blocking/stamina/nirn + animation canceling bash damage (honestly main difficult thing was perma blocking on a 600 + CP player) He was with his friends which im also friends with (I didnt know lol)

Point being, I had everything against me + broken mechanics and STILL managed to win 2 fights.

My personal opinion but skill DOES exist in this game, BUT ZOS is taking it away especially with the CP system and some changes.

-I am mainly referring to smaller scale combat, large scale I believe there isnt any level of skill mainly because of large groups spamming purge + rapids over and over-

Even on PTS I see ZOS taking 2 steps forward and 2 steps back.

Sallington

All I know is that when I get one-shotted by a 20k+ Dawnbreaker of Smiting, I don't considered that skill.

Xael

Rylana wrote: »

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

Ezareth might have been one of the first YOU noticed, but in 1.5 practically all Sorc's that didn't run in a zerg ball shield stacked and used the same gear. To make your argument you withhold a lot of truth and history. First off around 1.4/1.5 almost everyone worth a damn was running the same meta. It was full Light Armor / Impenetrable / Resto Staff / 1HS. Every single class was doing this. It was not unique to any one player and if you want to give credit to anyone, give some to Sypher because he made dueling popular and set the bar amongst those that used the dueling perspective. Even he wasn't unique there are plenty of people out there who did not make videos or post on the forum, yet remained unsung. I know of at least 2 of them.

Furthermore calling people copycats is just disingenuous. The meta changed, you either changed with it or you underperformed, it's that simple. A lot of Stamina Sorcs switched over to Light Armor not because they heard of some guy named Ezareth... but because Stam Sorcs sucked ass and Crit was impossible, let alone self healing through Critical Surge. This thread is just ridiculous.

QuebraRegra

Sallington wrote: »

All I know is that when I get one-shotted by a 20k+ Dawnbreaker of Smiting, I don't considered that skill.

Disagree. There's skill involved... The skill it takes to triple or quad mundus, slather generous amounts of CP, and take advantage of every exploit the current patch has to offer.

Sorry, but Rylana has the right of it.

GOML!

Rylana

Xael wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Skill is a myth?
Should re-title to: Thread is a lie.

You are speaking about different situations and applying a blanket statement to all of them. Sorry that's just not the case.

By making this thread you are implying a brand new player can (on an even playing field) best a veteran such as myself? That is nonsense. Even if I disabled my CP and gave him 500, it would not help him beat me. Why? Skill.
Even if you boil down all the gear, templates, pvp ranks, etc, factors such as timing, rhythm and overall execution still play a part. Saying they don't is woefully ignorant. I understand the game is not perfect, subject to serious bugs and malfunctions. I also understand some fights are nothing more than a pinata party where you are the center of a gang bang. However implying these isolated situations are the same for all situations is just dishonest. There are a lot of situations where skill plays a major role and you will overcome adversity to being the better player. It's why you see so many 1vX videos or highlight reels.

Before you are tempted about engaging in semantics or equivocation, ask yourself what skill actually is. Because you could take your thread post and apply it to most games, particularly games with an actual high skill curve like DotA 2 and that is just laughable.

You activated my trap card.

You invoked the 1vX videos, and that is exactly what I was waiting for. Look very closely into most, if not all, of the early 1vX videos people cling to. And even many of the more modern ones. What is the common denominator, it is not skill. In nearly every case, the player making the video discovered (knowledge is power) a broken mechanic, something not working as designed, a non-intuitive exploit, something that then spread and became widespread metagame because OMG SO AWESOME I WANNA BE LIKE DAT GUY.

There is a reason 1vX is starting to die, and its not because of game mechanics changes, its because the knowledge is no longer secret, cookie cutter has become prevalent, and the game is no longer new.

Gone are the days of true emergent gameplay, indeed some of those former players may have indeed had the skills you claim to cherish, one even posted in this thread, someone I have respect for.

But, they have now gone to the wayside as their ace-in-the-hole knowledge no longer determines the outcome of a fight before it has started.

What in the world are you talking about?
You just implied every 1vX video maker is using some secret knowledge or exploit to have an unfair advantage over others. This reasoning is absurd. You are essentially creating a construct and forcing everyone to reason from within it. No thanks.

For the record, dodge rolling is not an exploit. Knowing when to block is not an exploit. Being quicker than your opponent is not an exploit. Thinking outside the box is not an exploit. If you don't think knowledge and skill play a hand in hand role, you are deceiving yourself. By the way, 1vX is not dying, there are more videos of it now than ever. Moreover what I find hilarious is most people "know" about stuff, yet lack the skill to pull it off which kind of shoots a big hole in your argument. It's why you see so few that actually stand out. I asked you not to try and equivocate or shuffle semantics and it's the first thing you did.

Right, because it takes a great deal of skill and practice to roll around on the ground spamming vigor and rally while waiting for an opportunity to throw 30k worth of nearly full armor bypass burst damage into someone face

Stack stamina regen + weapon damage with about 250 champ points and sharpened heavy weapons, preferably maces, gg.

Again, we are getting into the nitty gritty of why the game has become so ridiculously easy that practically no one out there people view as skilled even are. In just my one sentence I touched on three broken things (some of which are addressed in upcoming patch)

- Infinite resource
- Infinite damage mitigation + healing
- Insane burst w/bypass


All in one build.

*snort* Skilled.

k2blader

Good post.

the most successful groups consist of a leader that has about 20 robots on follow just doing whatever he says to do. Skill = 0.

If the group is successful against other organized groups (not pugs), I think the leader of such a group probably has some tactical skill. In the distant past I was able to run with a great leader here and there, and while it was kinda fun, paradoxically I also found it unfulfilling because it did make me feel like a skill-less robot expected to follow orders.

I'll never put gamers on pedestals, but I think there's a lot of people who likely play the game better than I do. What gets me annoyed is when they come on the forums acting like it means anything real or putting down others with a more relaxed attitude toward playing.

Rylana

Xael wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

Ezareth might have been one of the first YOU noticed, but in 1.5 practically all Sorc's that didn't run in a zerg ball shield stacked and used the same gear. To make your argument you withhold a lot of truth and history. First off around 1.4/1.5 almost everyone worth a damn was running the same meta. It was full Light Armor / Impenetrable / Resto Staff / 1HS. Every single class was doing this. It was not unique to any one player and if you want to give credit to anyone, give some to Sypher because he made dueling popular and set the bar amongst those that used the dueling perspective. Even he wasn't unique there are plenty of people out there who did not make videos or post on the forum, yet remained unsung. I know of at least 2 of them.

Furthermore calling people copycats is just disingenuous. The meta changed, you either changed with it or you underperformed, it's that simple. A lot of Stamina Sorcs switched over to Light Armor not because they heard of some guy named Ezareth... but because Stam Sorcs sucked ass and Crit was impossible, let alone self healing through Critical Surge. This thread is just ridiculous.

Um, im talking as far back as 1.2, possibly even 1.1 in some cases. Real old school. Many (most) of those people dont even play anymore either.

its been a cyclical thing with this game. The first people to X then spread X, X becomes meta, is copied, rinse repeat

Perhaps some of the first people had them mad skills, at least as defined in my OP to that extent. But those that came later? nah.

Also the meta hasnt changed all that much. We traded barrier stacking for barrier rotation, ground oil for proxdet, novabombs for more caltrops because its never enough especially with camo hunter on them. its the same as its always been. Put 2-3 busted skills on your bar, put the latest FOTM build on, win game.

I guess you could give credit to those that figured out things were broken or OP? Maybe?

Xael

Rylana wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Skill is a myth?
Should re-title to: Thread is a lie.

You are speaking about different situations and applying a blanket statement to all of them. Sorry that's just not the case.

By making this thread you are implying a brand new player can (on an even playing field) best a veteran such as myself? That is nonsense. Even if I disabled my CP and gave him 500, it would not help him beat me. Why? Skill.
Even if you boil down all the gear, templates, pvp ranks, etc, factors such as timing, rhythm and overall execution still play a part. Saying they don't is woefully ignorant. I understand the game is not perfect, subject to serious bugs and malfunctions. I also understand some fights are nothing more than a pinata party where you are the center of a gang bang. However implying these isolated situations are the same for all situations is just dishonest. There are a lot of situations where skill plays a major role and you will overcome adversity to being the better player. It's why you see so many 1vX videos or highlight reels.

Before you are tempted about engaging in semantics or equivocation, ask yourself what skill actually is. Because you could take your thread post and apply it to most games, particularly games with an actual high skill curve like DotA 2 and that is just laughable.

You activated my trap card.

You invoked the 1vX videos, and that is exactly what I was waiting for. Look very closely into most, if not all, of the early 1vX videos people cling to. And even many of the more modern ones. What is the common denominator, it is not skill. In nearly every case, the player making the video discovered (knowledge is power) a broken mechanic, something not working as designed, a non-intuitive exploit, something that then spread and became widespread metagame because OMG SO AWESOME I WANNA BE LIKE DAT GUY.

There is a reason 1vX is starting to die, and its not because of game mechanics changes, its because the knowledge is no longer secret, cookie cutter has become prevalent, and the game is no longer new.

Gone are the days of true emergent gameplay, indeed some of those former players may have indeed had the skills you claim to cherish, one even posted in this thread, someone I have respect for.

But, they have now gone to the wayside as their ace-in-the-hole knowledge no longer determines the outcome of a fight before it has started.

What in the world are you talking about?
You just implied every 1vX video maker is using some secret knowledge or exploit to have an unfair advantage over others. This reasoning is absurd. You are essentially creating a construct and forcing everyone to reason from within it. No thanks.

For the record, dodge rolling is not an exploit. Knowing when to block is not an exploit. Being quicker than your opponent is not an exploit. Thinking outside the box is not an exploit. If you don't think knowledge and skill play a hand in hand role, you are deceiving yourself. By the way, 1vX is not dying, there are more videos of it now than ever. Moreover what I find hilarious is most people "know" about stuff, yet lack the skill to pull it off which kind of shoots a big hole in your argument. It's why you see so few that actually stand out. I asked you not to try and equivocate or shuffle semantics and it's the first thing you did.

Right, because it takes a great deal of skill and practice to roll around on the ground spamming vigor and rally while waiting for an opportunity to throw 30k worth of nearly full armor bypass burst damage into someone face

Stack stamina regen + weapon damage with about 250 champ points and sharpened heavy weapons, preferably maces, gg.

Again, we are getting into the nitty gritty of why the game has become so ridiculously easy that practically no one out there people view as skilled even are. In just my one sentence I touched on three broken things (some of which are addressed in upcoming patch)

- Infinite resource
- Infinite damage mitigation + healing
- Insane burst w/bypass


All in one build.

*snort* Skilled.

Now you are just cherry picking.
You just lumped 3 things into one and pigeonholed the entire argument into it. Way to go. You are being extremely dishonest.

Rylana

Xael wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Skill is a myth?
Should re-title to: Thread is a lie.

You are speaking about different situations and applying a blanket statement to all of them. Sorry that's just not the case.

By making this thread you are implying a brand new player can (on an even playing field) best a veteran such as myself? That is nonsense. Even if I disabled my CP and gave him 500, it would not help him beat me. Why? Skill.
Even if you boil down all the gear, templates, pvp ranks, etc, factors such as timing, rhythm and overall execution still play a part. Saying they don't is woefully ignorant. I understand the game is not perfect, subject to serious bugs and malfunctions. I also understand some fights are nothing more than a pinata party where you are the center of a gang bang. However implying these isolated situations are the same for all situations is just dishonest. There are a lot of situations where skill plays a major role and you will overcome adversity to being the better player. It's why you see so many 1vX videos or highlight reels.

Before you are tempted about engaging in semantics or equivocation, ask yourself what skill actually is. Because you could take your thread post and apply it to most games, particularly games with an actual high skill curve like DotA 2 and that is just laughable.

You activated my trap card.

You invoked the 1vX videos, and that is exactly what I was waiting for. Look very closely into most, if not all, of the early 1vX videos people cling to. And even many of the more modern ones. What is the common denominator, it is not skill. In nearly every case, the player making the video discovered (knowledge is power) a broken mechanic, something not working as designed, a non-intuitive exploit, something that then spread and became widespread metagame because OMG SO AWESOME I WANNA BE LIKE DAT GUY.

There is a reason 1vX is starting to die, and its not because of game mechanics changes, its because the knowledge is no longer secret, cookie cutter has become prevalent, and the game is no longer new.

Gone are the days of true emergent gameplay, indeed some of those former players may have indeed had the skills you claim to cherish, one even posted in this thread, someone I have respect for.

But, they have now gone to the wayside as their ace-in-the-hole knowledge no longer determines the outcome of a fight before it has started.

What in the world are you talking about?
You just implied every 1vX video maker is using some secret knowledge or exploit to have an unfair advantage over others. This reasoning is absurd. You are essentially creating a construct and forcing everyone to reason from within it. No thanks.

For the record, dodge rolling is not an exploit. Knowing when to block is not an exploit. Being quicker than your opponent is not an exploit. Thinking outside the box is not an exploit. If you don't think knowledge and skill play a hand in hand role, you are deceiving yourself. By the way, 1vX is not dying, there are more videos of it now than ever. Moreover what I find hilarious is most people "know" about stuff, yet lack the skill to pull it off which kind of shoots a big hole in your argument. It's why you see so few that actually stand out. I asked you not to try and equivocate or shuffle semantics and it's the first thing you did.

Right, because it takes a great deal of skill and practice to roll around on the ground spamming vigor and rally while waiting for an opportunity to throw 30k worth of nearly full armor bypass burst damage into someone face

Stack stamina regen + weapon damage with about 250 champ points and sharpened heavy weapons, preferably maces, gg.

Again, we are getting into the nitty gritty of why the game has become so ridiculously easy that practically no one out there people view as skilled even are. In just my one sentence I touched on three broken things (some of which are addressed in upcoming patch)

- Infinite resource
- Infinite damage mitigation + healing
- Insane burst w/bypass


All in one build.

*snort* Skilled.

Now you are just cherry picking.
You just lumped 3 things into one and pigeonholed the entire argument into it. Way to go. You are being extremely dishonest.

I can do the same thing with pretty much every FOTM common build out there right now. Spin to win is another in the same vein, proxdet trains, all of it. What it boils down to in the end is assembling combinations of tried and true I-win and very little else.

Araxleon

Some people are actually skilled. Amazing reaction time

Some use cheap mechanics and consider themselves skilled. Great at finding/abusing bugs

Some people are raid leaders thus consider themselves skilled because said person has power. Good at yelling at people and/or being a leader

Some people are popular so they say they are skilled. Charismatic and great at manipulating people

we are all skilled in our own way

Rylana

Araxleon wrote: »

Some people are actually skilled. Amazing reaction time

Some use cheap mechanics and consider themselves skilled. Great at finding/abusing bugs

Some people are raid leaders thus consider themselves skilled because said person has power. Good at yellingat people and/or being a leader

Some people are popular so they say they are skilled. Charismatic and great at manipulating people

we are all special in our own way

Some cause chaos and controversy on forum threads - I am also a special snowflake

j/k