Skill is a Myth

DisgracefulMind · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I have to disagree to an extent. There are plenty players who are extremely skilled at this game.

Ezareth wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

I think most of the sorcs running the most powerful build these days copied Germantrocities build with Destro + Resto with streak which is the oldest playstyle (and boring to me) in the game. He added daedric mines + dawnbreaker to the combo with entropy for spellpower + MOTG. It is very effective though but I agree it doesn't take much skill to execute it as its strength all lies in the stats and power of the build and it is extremely easy to execute and perform well against most players. Still you can easily identify A copycat running the build and a player with true skill. Copycats will fire their dawnbreaker way too early, or they'll forget to refresh their shields or they'll focus the wrong targets instead of correctly identifying the right targets to attack.

I'm not trying to uplift myself or downplay anyone else here but I just disagree with a lot of what you're saying there. My build would probably be much less effective today than it was 3 months ago unless I made some adjustments to it with the knowledge I've gained since then.

What pisses me off is in 2.1, skill becomes far less of a factor due to the nerfs to dodge roll and block. They've just removed two major components to combat that were powerful when used correctly and made the game far more about maxing damage and passive defense than anything else.

God I remember when we used to destroy people pre 1.6 as Sorcs. And everyone always doubted Sorcs, always. Now look at what Sorcs have become. Everyone running the Engine Guardian build ;P
While I have enjoyed my time killing all of the copycats, and being a general nuisance as I always have been in Cyrodiil on my Sorc, it's time to play something a bit more challenging. I think Sorc has become far too easy, and its lost the charm it had pre 1.6 and the beginning of 1.6. Everyone rolled one, everyone put on Engine Guardian/Healer/Seducer, and poured all their points into bastion, believing they were now god-mode. It's lovely to put them in their place, and humorous to watch them fail at tactics and the such.

I digress, though. There is skill that comes into play in this game. A lot of what Ezareth has pointed out defines what I also believe to be skill. Positioning, knowing when to dodge, when to block, who to focus, to be aware of your surroundings, to know when and when to not use certain skills, to be able to finish off a final burst flawlessly, etc. etc. Skilled players will absorb what they learn open world, and adjust their builds to accommodate any situation that may arise. I hear players cry a lot about not wanting to specify builds to beat certain classes. A skilled player shapes his build around being able to handle any class at any time in Cyrodiil. Copycats will fail at this, the skilled players will succeed. It will be the same way in 1.7, just as it was when 1.6 hit.

I have to agree with the final point here. As a player who actively dodges when needed, blocks when needed, and is generally aware of her surroundings, this is going to suck, for lack of better words. However, I do see where there will be some more complicity added to how to handle outnumbered situations and the such.

But we'll see what the final result will be.

Overall, however, I do think skill goes into this game, but I think the skilled players are very rare. Just my opinion on the matter.

I chalk it up more to just experience and familiarity. Give them time and they will get all the nuances and so on. Ive had a lot of fun wrecking the rerolls too (especially the inevitable-curse-soul assault people that got that poor tip from an infamous video), and i was NEVER the engine/healer/seducer. Ive always been the 3100 spell damage spiker sorc that will rock you for 17-20k out of nowhere. Know what I mean? Something that not everyone uses, but probably will or have and I missed it.

I dunno, i remember fighting a whole bunch of sorcs back in 1.5 on my DK, i am pretty sure thats where we started talking more than just a little bit when I was hanging around in chillrend TS. I remember how stupid OP DK was and how I was taking on 4 sorcs for 10+ minutes because reasons. Honestly to me it wasnt so much i felt skilled as i was just hitting things to delay or prevent the inevitable, dragging it out as best I could. That and at the time DKs were just that dang strong vs most sorcs.

Ill be completely honest, even those times where ive somehow managed to wreck 10 people by myself on a keep inner or even in open field... i dont feel like its an abundance of "skillful mastery" so to speak, more like those I was fighting werent informed on the proper counters to what i was doing. Put one guy that knows what hes doing into a fight like that, and it completely shifts the balance.

So i dunno, just rambling after a long night of PvP with mixed emotions about the future of the game. I dont think anything any of us are doing today is anything special. No offense to anyone either.

But that experience and familiarity with the game goes into the equation of skill. Of course, just my opinion, and dependent on how wants to define what skill really is.

Ah, I know you were never in that build. German and I used that build before all the sorcs using it now in 1.6, and it's just funny to see everyone running it, and how easy it is to kill them. I moved away from that build and still kill them with ease. Just a humorous pointing out.

DKs used to be ridiculous. A good DK rarely fell unless overwhelmed, and even then still was a pain to take down. The meta shifted to Sorc, it will shift to something else again.

I do feel the mixed emotions, though, I've felt them too. Perhaps the enraged feelings are from seeing unskilled players being able to kill players they should have no chance to kill by using broken crap that ZoS neglects to fix, or using exploits, etc. Maybe that's why it doesn't feel there's any skill left in this game. Idk.

Rylana · August 2015

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I have to disagree to an extent. There are plenty players who are extremely skilled at this game.

Ezareth wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

I think most of the sorcs running the most powerful build these days copied Germantrocities build with Destro + Resto with streak which is the oldest playstyle (and boring to me) in the game. He added daedric mines + dawnbreaker to the combo with entropy for spellpower + MOTG. It is very effective though but I agree it doesn't take much skill to execute it as its strength all lies in the stats and power of the build and it is extremely easy to execute and perform well against most players. Still you can easily identify A copycat running the build and a player with true skill. Copycats will fire their dawnbreaker way too early, or they'll forget to refresh their shields or they'll focus the wrong targets instead of correctly identifying the right targets to attack.

I'm not trying to uplift myself or downplay anyone else here but I just disagree with a lot of what you're saying there. My build would probably be much less effective today than it was 3 months ago unless I made some adjustments to it with the knowledge I've gained since then.

What pisses me off is in 2.1, skill becomes far less of a factor due to the nerfs to dodge roll and block. They've just removed two major components to combat that were powerful when used correctly and made the game far more about maxing damage and passive defense than anything else.

God I remember when we used to destroy people pre 1.6 as Sorcs. And everyone always doubted Sorcs, always. Now look at what Sorcs have become. Everyone running the Engine Guardian build ;P
While I have enjoyed my time killing all of the copycats, and being a general nuisance as I always have been in Cyrodiil on my Sorc, it's time to play something a bit more challenging. I think Sorc has become far too easy, and its lost the charm it had pre 1.6 and the beginning of 1.6. Everyone rolled one, everyone put on Engine Guardian/Healer/Seducer, and poured all their points into bastion, believing they were now god-mode. It's lovely to put them in their place, and humorous to watch them fail at tactics and the such.

I digress, though. There is skill that comes into play in this game. A lot of what Ezareth has pointed out defines what I also believe to be skill. Positioning, knowing when to dodge, when to block, who to focus, to be aware of your surroundings, to know when and when to not use certain skills, to be able to finish off a final burst flawlessly, etc. etc. Skilled players will absorb what they learn open world, and adjust their builds to accommodate any situation that may arise. I hear players cry a lot about not wanting to specify builds to beat certain classes. A skilled player shapes his build around being able to handle any class at any time in Cyrodiil. Copycats will fail at this, the skilled players will succeed. It will be the same way in 1.7, just as it was when 1.6 hit.

I have to agree with the final point here. As a player who actively dodges when needed, blocks when needed, and is generally aware of her surroundings, this is going to suck, for lack of better words. However, I do see where there will be some more complicity added to how to handle outnumbered situations and the such.

But we'll see what the final result will be.

Overall, however, I do think skill goes into this game, but I think the skilled players are very rare. Just my opinion on the matter.

I chalk it up more to just experience and familiarity. Give them time and they will get all the nuances and so on. Ive had a lot of fun wrecking the rerolls too (especially the inevitable-curse-soul assault people that got that poor tip from an infamous video), and i was NEVER the engine/healer/seducer. Ive always been the 3100 spell damage spiker sorc that will rock you for 17-20k out of nowhere. Know what I mean? Something that not everyone uses, but probably will or have and I missed it.

I dunno, i remember fighting a whole bunch of sorcs back in 1.5 on my DK, i am pretty sure thats where we started talking more than just a little bit when I was hanging around in chillrend TS. I remember how stupid OP DK was and how I was taking on 4 sorcs for 10+ minutes because reasons. Honestly to me it wasnt so much i felt skilled as i was just hitting things to delay or prevent the inevitable, dragging it out as best I could. That and at the time DKs were just that dang strong vs most sorcs.

Ill be completely honest, even those times where ive somehow managed to wreck 10 people by myself on a keep inner or even in open field... i dont feel like its an abundance of "skillful mastery" so to speak, more like those I was fighting werent informed on the proper counters to what i was doing. Put one guy that knows what hes doing into a fight like that, and it completely shifts the balance.

So i dunno, just rambling after a long night of PvP with mixed emotions about the future of the game. I dont think anything any of us are doing today is anything special. No offense to anyone either.

But that experience and familiarity with the game goes into the equation of skill. Of course, just my opinion, and dependent on how wants to define what skill really is.

Ah, I know you were never in that build. German and I used that build before all the sorcs using it now in 1.6, and it's just funny to see everyone running it, and how easy it is to kill them. I moved away from that build and still kill them with ease. Just a humorous pointing out.

DKs used to be ridiculous. A good DK rarely fell unless overwhelmed, and even then still was a pain to take down. The meta shifted to Sorc, it will shift to something else again.

I do feel the mixed emotions, though, I've felt them too. Perhaps the enraged feelings are from seeing unskilled players being able to kill players they should have no chance to kill by using broken crap that ZoS neglects to fix, or using exploits, etc. Maybe that's why it doesn't feel there's any skill left in this game. Idk.

I think that bolded paragraph sums up exactly what I have been trying to say this whole thread. Skill became a myth because there is so much broken crutchness and cheese now, that skill does not matter?

Like I did say earlier in the thread there was a time, so very long ago (relatively) where you could tell skill or knowledge vs plain bad.

leave it up to you to deliver the proper verbiage

Example: Today I was fighting a certain emperor of a certain campaign on a certain character of mine that may or may not be blue in color.

Trying to be as vague as possible because i dont want this to turn into trash talking against a specific person, right

But this emp... was so bad... they were spamming dawnbreakers over and over on my DC DK. And they werent killing me with them. he must have hit me half a dozen times with it. And yes, my dc dk is a vamp.

What? has the game gotten so stupid that an emperor dragonknight, one of the most feared and powerful combinations in the game, has resorted to using some BS cheese to take on just a regular non emp player?

What the actual F... i literally had no words in TS as it was happening. If it hadnt been for the couple of keep guards there that were also beating on me (oops, thats my bad i aggroed them before the emp jumped me), this guy probably never would have killed me at all. I dont even.

Edit to add: this may or may not have been on a certain 14 day campaign.

DisgracefulMind · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I have to disagree to an extent. There are plenty players who are extremely skilled at this game.

Ezareth wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

I think most of the sorcs running the most powerful build these days copied Germantrocities build with Destro + Resto with streak which is the oldest playstyle (and boring to me) in the game. He added daedric mines + dawnbreaker to the combo with entropy for spellpower + MOTG. It is very effective though but I agree it doesn't take much skill to execute it as its strength all lies in the stats and power of the build and it is extremely easy to execute and perform well against most players. Still you can easily identify A copycat running the build and a player with true skill. Copycats will fire their dawnbreaker way too early, or they'll forget to refresh their shields or they'll focus the wrong targets instead of correctly identifying the right targets to attack.

I'm not trying to uplift myself or downplay anyone else here but I just disagree with a lot of what you're saying there. My build would probably be much less effective today than it was 3 months ago unless I made some adjustments to it with the knowledge I've gained since then.

What pisses me off is in 2.1, skill becomes far less of a factor due to the nerfs to dodge roll and block. They've just removed two major components to combat that were powerful when used correctly and made the game far more about maxing damage and passive defense than anything else.

God I remember when we used to destroy people pre 1.6 as Sorcs. And everyone always doubted Sorcs, always. Now look at what Sorcs have become. Everyone running the Engine Guardian build ;P
While I have enjoyed my time killing all of the copycats, and being a general nuisance as I always have been in Cyrodiil on my Sorc, it's time to play something a bit more challenging. I think Sorc has become far too easy, and its lost the charm it had pre 1.6 and the beginning of 1.6. Everyone rolled one, everyone put on Engine Guardian/Healer/Seducer, and poured all their points into bastion, believing they were now god-mode. It's lovely to put them in their place, and humorous to watch them fail at tactics and the such.

I digress, though. There is skill that comes into play in this game. A lot of what Ezareth has pointed out defines what I also believe to be skill. Positioning, knowing when to dodge, when to block, who to focus, to be aware of your surroundings, to know when and when to not use certain skills, to be able to finish off a final burst flawlessly, etc. etc. Skilled players will absorb what they learn open world, and adjust their builds to accommodate any situation that may arise. I hear players cry a lot about not wanting to specify builds to beat certain classes. A skilled player shapes his build around being able to handle any class at any time in Cyrodiil. Copycats will fail at this, the skilled players will succeed. It will be the same way in 1.7, just as it was when 1.6 hit.

I have to agree with the final point here. As a player who actively dodges when needed, blocks when needed, and is generally aware of her surroundings, this is going to suck, for lack of better words. However, I do see where there will be some more complicity added to how to handle outnumbered situations and the such.

But we'll see what the final result will be.

Overall, however, I do think skill goes into this game, but I think the skilled players are very rare. Just my opinion on the matter.

I chalk it up more to just experience and familiarity. Give them time and they will get all the nuances and so on. Ive had a lot of fun wrecking the rerolls too (especially the inevitable-curse-soul assault people that got that poor tip from an infamous video), and i was NEVER the engine/healer/seducer. Ive always been the 3100 spell damage spiker sorc that will rock you for 17-20k out of nowhere. Know what I mean? Something that not everyone uses, but probably will or have and I missed it.

I dunno, i remember fighting a whole bunch of sorcs back in 1.5 on my DK, i am pretty sure thats where we started talking more than just a little bit when I was hanging around in chillrend TS. I remember how stupid OP DK was and how I was taking on 4 sorcs for 10+ minutes because reasons. Honestly to me it wasnt so much i felt skilled as i was just hitting things to delay or prevent the inevitable, dragging it out as best I could. That and at the time DKs were just that dang strong vs most sorcs.

Ill be completely honest, even those times where ive somehow managed to wreck 10 people by myself on a keep inner or even in open field... i dont feel like its an abundance of "skillful mastery" so to speak, more like those I was fighting werent informed on the proper counters to what i was doing. Put one guy that knows what hes doing into a fight like that, and it completely shifts the balance.

So i dunno, just rambling after a long night of PvP with mixed emotions about the future of the game. I dont think anything any of us are doing today is anything special. No offense to anyone either.

But that experience and familiarity with the game goes into the equation of skill. Of course, just my opinion, and dependent on how wants to define what skill really is.

Ah, I know you were never in that build. German and I used that build before all the sorcs using it now in 1.6, and it's just funny to see everyone running it, and how easy it is to kill them. I moved away from that build and still kill them with ease. Just a humorous pointing out.

DKs used to be ridiculous. A good DK rarely fell unless overwhelmed, and even then still was a pain to take down. The meta shifted to Sorc, it will shift to something else again.

I do feel the mixed emotions, though, I've felt them too. Perhaps the enraged feelings are from seeing unskilled players being able to kill players they should have no chance to kill by using broken crap that ZoS neglects to fix, or using exploits, etc. Maybe that's why it doesn't feel there's any skill left in this game. Idk.

I think that bolded paragraph sums up exactly what I have been trying to say this whole thread. Skill became a myth because there is so much broken crutchness and cheese now, that skill does not matter?

Like I did say earlier in the thread there was a time, so very long ago (relatively) where you could tell skill or knowledge vs plain bad.

leave it up to you to deliver the proper verbiage

Example: Today I was fighting a certain emperor of a certain campaign on a certain character of mine that may or may not be blue in color.

Trying to be as vague as possible because i dont want this to turn into trash talking against a specific person, right

But this emp... was so bad... they were spamming dawnbreakers over and over on my DC DK. And they werent killing me with them. he must have hit me half a dozen times with it. And yes, my dc dk is a vamp.

What? has the game gotten so stupid that an emperor dragonknight, one of the most feared and powerful combinations in the game, has resorted to using some BS cheese to take on just a regular non emp player?

What the actual F... i literally had no words in TS as it was happening. If it hadnt been for the couple of keep guards there that were also beating on me (oops, thats my bad i aggroed them before the emp jumped me), this guy probably never would have killed me at all. I dont even.

Edit to add: this may or may not have been on a certain 14 day campaign.

While it feels like skill is a myth, there are still skilled players. I have a few in mind who I would never ever doubt. But, overall, the game has digressed into being much easier for people who know what to abuse, I do agree there.

And, yes, I can understand what you mean haha. There was a DK emp not too long ago who literally went down in 15 seconds every time more than 2 people were on him when he was caught away from his group. Was sad times.

I feel where you're coming from, Rylana, I really do.

newtinmpls · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

When I ran into a player last night and butchered him and his group alobg with several others multiple times he asked "how did I get so good?" I told him simply....I've played a very long time and have deep knowledge of the game and classes. I said that I felt 70% of the success of a player is build and stats, 20% pure skill in performing the correct action at the correct time and 10% strategy which is a combination of influencing your opponents into doing what you want then to do and utilizing the element of surprise when necessary.

That 20% is not insignificant. Knowing what to do at the right time without *thinking* is something that only comes from repetition.

Interesting breakdown.

This is my first ever MMO/MMORPG and I will say that the muscle memory involved in just learning to move during attacks (nevermind not standing in stupid - that was "the next level" for me) took ... probably months at least to become second nature. I still forget it when I've been away from the game for a while.

Then you add PvP where the opponents are (even at a low level) much more skilled at compensating for my moving than any in-game AI; and for me it becomes a whole other game - jump to non-vet and it's not PvP it's me being a target and any decently experienced player killing me before I even can start to react.

I play a lot of characters, and in terms of understanding their individual 'builds' and what works with what (and then add in what works with what the rest of the part has) comes slowly. Add in progression, choosing a different/better (hopefully) skill and then learning how to use it most effectively - that takes more time.

Probably it would be more "efficient" to only play one character for months at a time, but that's not fun for me. So I try to accept that in PvP I'm basically a walking target, and avoid PvP as much as possible (on average when I go there with friends to go skysharding, it's about 3 delves, then meet up with some gankers and then go back to PvE for a while).

Publius_Scipio · August 2015

I don't know what many of you mean by skill though. ESO is all about the class meta and repetition (if that is what you want to define as skill then ok).

ESO doesn't really afford that much flexibility in PvP for a player. You are the class that you are and depending on some minor choices you have (i.e. armor) each player will play almost identical.

Sypher isn't a one-off. There are a bunch of AD sorcs that do exactly what he does. Ninja San wouldn't be Ninja San unless he was rinse and repeat almost to a T each battle. What does Sypher, Ninja San, or anyone else for that matter need besides repetition memory and the slightest bit of learning how to counter each enemy class? Really as far as I can think about it, everything else is handled by the game itself in the way of gear and most importantly now, champ points.

So if skill = time played, repetition, and memory then for the purposes of this being an ESO discussion I will give that to you.

All these 1v1 and 1vX videos people post really aren't all that different from each other. ESO PvP pigeonholes the player and the classes to play a very specific way. Most top players will hold hands with the meta, period. Fixing exploits would probably loosen things up a bit however and could bring some diversity. Maybe something like spell crafting could also kick it up a notch?

But at the same time I think the game was built like that by design to a certain extent. It's supposed to be an alliance war brawl-for-all, not 1v1. Each class on the battlefield is performing that particular function.

Rune_Relic · August 2015

Part of the problem to me is ZOS started implementing superskills like prox det, rally, vigour, and two handers to be bread and butter stamina goto skills as a stop gap to prop up bad stamin balance and zerging.
Thus everyone has to start using said superskills as they are by design OP.

Other than throw your hands up in exasperation at FOTM central and the killing of diversity or GTFO.. what can you do.
In ZOS rush to fix things they introduce even more exploits that are abused to the max.
They started with subtle fixes that did nothing, then kneejerk fixes, then mass fixes.
All the time trying to manually balance a fundamentally flawed system that couldn't be balanced as it couldn't be controlled.

Lets take resource regen for instance.
This recover stam/magicka on basic/class hits.
There is no limit really on how many people could be hit by AoE or ground base AoE or PBAoE.
So certain builds with the right skills don't even worry about regen anymore.
They are beyond control of a cost based system as you cant regulate how many will be hit at any time.
Do these player builds care ? They live as gods....why would they ?
They can just spam the most expensive and powerful skills endlessly.
Everyone else has to resource manage to a greater or lesser degree.

The champion system.
Not only the passives... but the runaway increase in max stamina/magicka/health that goes with it.
Increasing stamina 50% increases damage 50%.
Increasing stamina 50% also increases the amount of hits before running out by 50%.
So you can use the highest cost versions of skills that do the most damage...animation cancelled of course to cut the time penalty...and do 50% moe damage by default.
So this is a gankers dream scenario for a burst build even without all CS passives to go with it.
New player comes into vet PVP and gets faced with these OP Gank builds.

The there is ridiculously OP Food and Drink.
You look at weapon/armour sets and all the passives.
Then you look at what food and drink does in comparison.
If you aren't a master provisioner you shouldn't be in competitive area.

Now we have the hybrid of the two.
The infnite aoe resource build + CP grinder.
A match made in heaven that only the gods could face down

So much resource reserve they can pile everything into weapon damage as no one can burst through their health and they cant withstand the damage they dish out.
That's without the fact infinite resource means they can damage shield or block all day long and armour is irrelevant compared to block mitigation.
Throw in 100% proc evil hunter stacking on top and wooooohoooo!
The eight help us.

There is no skill here other than knowing the latest and best exploits and OP skills.
I would have much more fun in a naked brawl that lasted all week.

Gilvoth · August 2015

people are finaly starting to recognize this and im very proud of you all for now seeing the truth.
just pushing buttons is not skill, im sory it just isn't.

newtinmpls · August 2015

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I don't know what many of you mean by skill though.

<snip>

Sypher isn't a one-off. There are a bunch of AD sorcs that do exactly what he does.

<snip>

So if skill = time played, repetition, and memory then for the purposes of this being an ESO discussion I will give that to you.

I will say that having watched some of Syper's videos he has much more ... not just situational awarness (though that is part of it) but muscle memory in how to use terrain (scooting around boulders that I would over-compensate for and fall off of) and where and what is "jumpable" with no/minimal damage.

So for those sorts of combinations/activities he can use them more effectively than I can. Or am ever likely to be able to, given our relative differences in how many hours we can/do play per day/week.

On Emps - the best one I ever saw didn't last long, but would happily and generously lead groups of newbies and teach us what to do and why to do it. Basically fought a holding (and slowly dying) action against the other faction's "A team"; but it was a fun learning experience.

Publius_Scipio · August 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Part of the problem to me is ZOS started implementing superskills like prox det, rally, vigour, and two handers to be bread and butter stamina goto skills as a stop gap to prop up bad stamin balance and zerging.
Thus everyone has to start using said superskills as they are by design OP.

Other than throw your hands up in exasperation at FOTM central and the killing of diversity or GTFO.. what can you do.
In ZOS rush to fix things they introduce even more exploits that are abused to the max.
They started with subtle fixes that did nothing, then kneejerk fixes, then mass fixes.
All the time trying to manually balance a fundamentally flawed system that couldn't be balanced as it couldn't be controlled.

Lets take resource regen for instance.
This recover stam/magicka on basic/class hits.
There is no limit really on how many people could be hit by AoE or ground base AoE or PBAoE.
So certain builds with the right skills don't even worry about regen anymore.
They are beyond control of a cost based system as you cant regulate how many will be hit at any time.
Do these player builds care ? They live as gods....why would they ?
They can just spam the most expensive and powerful skills endlessly.
Everyone else has to resource manage to a greater or lesser degree.

The champion system.
Not only the passives... but the runaway increase in max stamina/magicka/health that goes with it.
Increasing stamina 50% increases damage 50%.
Increasing stamina 50% also increases the amount of hits before running out by 50%.
So you can use the highest cost versions of skills that do the most damage...animation cancelled of course to cut the time penalty...and do 50% moe damage by default.
So this is a gankers dream scenario for a burst build even without all CS passives to go with it.
New player comes into vet PVP and gets faced with these OP Gank builds.

The there is Food and Drink.
You look at weapon/armour sets and all the passives.
Then you look at what food and drink does in comparison.
If you aren't a master provisioner you shouldn't be in competitive area.

Now we have the hybrid of the two.
The infnite aoe resource build + CP grinder.
A match made in heaven that only the gods could face down
So much resource reserve they can pile everything into weapon damage as no one can burst through their health and they cant withstand the damage they dish out.
The eight help us.

I will tell you what, I personally think all the buffs and stacking (i.e. shields) is pretty over the top in this game.

Let's all be reasonable and give people max one shield up at once. These near immortal sorcs is really bad for PvP in my opinion.

Funny thing is sorcs were supposed to be brought inline with the rest of the game come the new update. All I read however is that sorcs will continue to rule come Imp City.

ToRelax · August 2015

Vizier wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Well can't all video games in this genre be relegated to not needing skill, but knowledge?

I mean, it's not like you have to have a special ability or training to hit keys, especially when the game is literally telling you at what point to hit those keys.

I think the real skill comes from strategy and anticipating the overall momentum of battles.

Getting to a keep and setting up defenses before the enemy gets there, ambushing, flanking etc are the only examples of "skill", but even then isn't that more tactical knowledge of battle than skill?

While I agree with much of what Rylana said. I mean for crying out loud there are addons that tell you when to block, dodge, counter, etc... Truly problematic IMO. That said I just don't agree that there is no skill involved. Ezereth and other elite players have shown that and I don't believe it's all just about exploiting Nirn and such. (true for some for sure.) I mean for instance I think at some point I sniped at Ezereth from stealth and he was off his horse and charging me before my arrow was half way to him. THAT kind of skill and reaction time make me smile even as I'm dying. lol.

@yodased you really are seconding my thoughts here. Situational awareness is IMO one of the most important skills a player can develop. Seeing and understanding the ebb and flow of battles and being able to anticipate what is going to happen is key to survival, especially for solo and small group pvp players.

This one is interesting. How would he do that? When I am very concentrated, I can dodge the very first attack as well, but the problem I then face is that the sniper enters stealth again. So my usual tactic is to either just let the first arrow hit my Defensive Rune, or, when I suspect several gankers, take it with Hardened Ward.
@Ezareth

Publius_Scipio · August 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I don't know what many of you mean by skill though.

<snip>

Sypher isn't a one-off. There are a bunch of AD sorcs that do exactly what he does.

<snip>

So if skill = time played, repetition, and memory then for the purposes of this being an ESO discussion I will give that to you.

I will say that having watched some of Syper's videos he has much more ... not just situational awarness (though that is part of it) but muscle memory in how to use terrain (scooting around boulders that I would over-compensate for and fall off of) and where and what is "jumpable" with no/minimal damage.

So for those sorts of combinations/activities he can use them more effectively than I can. Or am ever likely to be able to, given our relative differences in how many hours we can/do play per day/week.

On Emps - the best one I ever saw didn't last long, but would happily and generously lead groups of newbies and teach us what to do and why to do it. Basically fought a holding (and slowly dying) action against the other faction's "A team"; but it was a fun learning experience.

You do know Sypher has literally gone around studying the terrain right?

FluffiestOne · August 2015

Lemme put it this way.

You main a nightblade, you aren't skilled.
You main a magicka sorc, you aren't skilled.
You main a dk, you might have skill.
You main a templar, chances are you might have skill.

Sadly because of class imbalances it has to be this way.

Araxleon wrote: »

Some people are popular so they say they are skilled. Charismatic and great at manipulating people

You caught me!

Publius_Scipio · August 2015

FluffiestOne wrote: »

Lemme put it this way.

You main a nightblade, you aren't skilled.
You main a magicka sorc, you aren't skilled. EASIEST PVP CLASS RIGHT NOW TO PLAY
You main a dk, you might have skill.
You main a templar, chances are you might have skill.

Sadly because of class imbalances it has to be this way.

Araxleon wrote: »

Some people are popular so they say they are skilled. Charismatic and great at manipulating people

You caught me!

I will humbly add to the MIGHTY COMMANDER FLUFFYKINS' post (in bold above).

FluffiestOne · August 2015

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

FluffiestOne wrote: »

Lemme put it this way.

You main a nightblade, you aren't skilled.
You main a magicka sorc, you aren't skilled. EASIEST PVP CLASS RIGHT NOW TO PLAY
You main a dk, you might have skill.
You main a templar, chances are you might have skill.

Sadly because of class imbalances it has to be this way.

Araxleon wrote: »

Some people are popular so they say they are skilled. Charismatic and great at manipulating people

You caught me!

I will humbly add to the MIGHTY COMMANDER FLUFFYKINS' post (in bold above).

Haha, I'd say nightblade is on the contrary.

Zavus · August 2015

FluffiestOne wrote: »

Lemme put it this way.

You main a nightblade, you aren't skilled.
You main a magicka sorc, you aren't skilled.
You main a dk, you might have skill.
You main a templar, chances are you might have skill.

Sadly because of class imbalances it has to be this way.

I am sorry to say I've played sorc since launch. It's my only char and I'll not play another class. Forgive me your.....fluffyness?

-Methu

FluffiestOne · August 2015

Zavus wrote: »

FluffiestOne wrote: »

Lemme put it this way.

You main a nightblade, you aren't skilled.
You main a magicka sorc, you aren't skilled.
You main a dk, you might have skill.
You main a templar, chances are you might have skill.

Sadly because of class imbalances it has to be this way.

I am sorry to say I've played sorc since launch. It's my only char and I'll not play another class. Forgive me your.....fluffyness?

-Methu

If you can be like LORD FENGRUSH I'll forgive you.

Signed, FLUFFAY, EREDAR LORD OF THE BURNING LEGION.

TBois · August 2015

If you main a Stam sorc are you stupid or skilled?

FluffiestOne · August 2015

sixuponthelot wrote: »

If you main a Stam sorc are you stupid or skilled?

That's the question of life.

Stikato · August 2015

I think that the longer any current meta is allowed to exist, the less that "skill" matters.

We have been living with 1.6 for what, 9 months? It's just been over dissected and figured out. Just about everyone is running optimal builds, or using optimal skills at the very least. Exploits have been identified to the point that it is known how to achieve them, and massive percentages of even the most vocal forum posters are using them without shame while they live stream. As many people just get tired of getting owned by stupid mechanics and completely repetitive gameplay, they leave, further concentrating the exploits and fotm BS.

There is an element of skill remaining. But it is a small, hollow thing compared to early days. There are PvP encounters I still remember from a year ago, yet I couldn't tell you one that happened in the last couple of weeks. It's just seeing the same chest-puffers running their stupid freaking exploits, people slamming down dawnbreaker, just ridiculous perma-blockers running a circle around a rock, perma-rollers, OP stam blades, BOL spammers, shield stackers of doom...Ugh.

It will get better in 1.7. I hope. The more ZOS waits for mega patches to address critical issues (Nirnhoned?!? Double Mundus?!? Sharpened?!?) the more this game will continue to suffer.

Lunamarie · August 2015

Stikato wrote: »

I think that the longer any current meta is allowed to exist, the less that "skill" matters.

We have been living with 1.6 for what, 9 months? It's just been over dissected and figured out. Just about everyone is running optimal builds, or using optimal skills at the very least. Exploits have been identified to the point that it is known how to achieve them, and massive percentages of even the most vocal forum posters are using them without shame while they live stream. As many people just get tired of getting owned by stupid mechanics and completely repetitive gameplay, they leave, further concentrating the exploits and fotm BS.

There is an element of skill remaining. But it is a small, hollow thing compared to early days. There are PvP encounters I still remember from a year ago, yet I couldn't tell you one that happened in the last couple of weeks. It's just seeing the same chest-puffers running their stupid freaking exploits, people slamming down dawnbreaker, just ridiculous perma-blockers running a circle around a rock, perma-rollers, OP stam blades, BOL spammers, shield stackers of doom...Ugh.

It will get better in 1.7. I hope. The more ZOS waits for mega patches to address critical issues (Nirnhoned?!? Double Mundus?!? Sharpened?!?) the more this game will continue to suffer.

I agree with this post and hopefully Imperial City we will see a lot of those critical issues fixed.

Well there's different perceptions of what you mean by skill depending on your actual playstyle. Some people are great at solo / duo but not as effective in a larger group and some people are skillful in a group but catch them solo and they aren't very effective.

There are your people who play cookie cutter builds but that happens pretty much in every update of ESO I think. Even after IC comes out people will find easy to use builds and stick with them.

Armitas · August 2015

Yeah pretty much. I'll gladly admit it, I rely on my self crafted build, class knowledge, and gaming peripherals not any personal skill. Mouse turning and pressing reactives will only take you so far, the build and the knowledge to use it will take you anywhere you want to go. Look at tagi's build, he built an "unkillable build" precisely based on his inability to react due to his cruddy ping. He eventually lost that title to some skilled people but look how long it stumped and frustrated people.

Juraigr · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I have to disagree to an extent. There are plenty players who are extremely skilled at this game.

Ezareth wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

I think most of the sorcs running the most powerful build these days copied Germantrocities build with Destro + Resto with streak which is the oldest playstyle (and boring to me) in the game. He added daedric mines + dawnbreaker to the combo with entropy for spellpower + MOTG. It is very effective though but I agree it doesn't take much skill to execute it as its strength all lies in the stats and power of the build and it is extremely easy to execute and perform well against most players. Still you can easily identify A copycat running the build and a player with true skill. Copycats will fire their dawnbreaker way too early, or they'll forget to refresh their shields or they'll focus the wrong targets instead of correctly identifying the right targets to attack.

I'm not trying to uplift myself or downplay anyone else here but I just disagree with a lot of what you're saying there. My build would probably be much less effective today than it was 3 months ago unless I made some adjustments to it with the knowledge I've gained since then.

What pisses me off is in 2.1, skill becomes far less of a factor due to the nerfs to dodge roll and block. They've just removed two major components to combat that were powerful when used correctly and made the game far more about maxing damage and passive defense than anything else.

God I remember when we used to destroy people pre 1.6 as Sorcs. And everyone always doubted Sorcs, always. Now look at what Sorcs have become. Everyone running the Engine Guardian build ;P
While I have enjoyed my time killing all of the copycats, and being a general nuisance as I always have been in Cyrodiil on my Sorc, it's time to play something a bit more challenging. I think Sorc has become far too easy, and its lost the charm it had pre 1.6 and the beginning of 1.6. Everyone rolled one, everyone put on Engine Guardian/Healer/Seducer, and poured all their points into bastion, believing they were now god-mode. It's lovely to put them in their place, and humorous to watch them fail at tactics and the such.

I digress, though. There is skill that comes into play in this game. A lot of what Ezareth has pointed out defines what I also believe to be skill. Positioning, knowing when to dodge, when to block, who to focus, to be aware of your surroundings, to know when and when to not use certain skills, to be able to finish off a final burst flawlessly, etc. etc. Skilled players will absorb what they learn open world, and adjust their builds to accommodate any situation that may arise. I hear players cry a lot about not wanting to specify builds to beat certain classes. A skilled player shapes his build around being able to handle any class at any time in Cyrodiil. Copycats will fail at this, the skilled players will succeed. It will be the same way in 1.7, just as it was when 1.6 hit.

I have to agree with the final point here. As a player who actively dodges when needed, blocks when needed, and is generally aware of her surroundings, this is going to suck, for lack of better words. However, I do see where there will be some more complicity added to how to handle outnumbered situations and the such.

But we'll see what the final result will be.

Overall, however, I do think skill goes into this game, but I think the skilled players are very rare. Just my opinion on the matter.

I chalk it up more to just experience and familiarity. Give them time and they will get all the nuances and so on. Ive had a lot of fun wrecking the rerolls too (especially the inevitable-curse-soul assault people that got that poor tip from an infamous video), and i was NEVER the engine/healer/seducer. Ive always been the 3100 spell damage spiker sorc that will rock you for 17-20k out of nowhere. Know what I mean? Something that not everyone uses, but probably will or have and I missed it.

I dunno, i remember fighting a whole bunch of sorcs back in 1.5 on my DK, i am pretty sure thats where we started talking more than just a little bit when I was hanging around in chillrend TS. I remember how stupid OP DK was and how I was taking on 4 sorcs for 10+ minutes because reasons. Honestly to me it wasnt so much i felt skilled as i was just hitting things to delay or prevent the inevitable, dragging it out as best I could. That and at the time DKs were just that dang strong vs most sorcs.

Ill be completely honest, even those times where ive somehow managed to wreck 10 people by myself on a keep inner or even in open field... i dont feel like its an abundance of "skillful mastery" so to speak, more like those I was fighting werent informed on the proper counters to what i was doing. Put one guy that knows what hes doing into a fight like that, and it completely shifts the balance.

So i dunno, just rambling after a long night of PvP with mixed emotions about the future of the game. I dont think anything any of us are doing today is anything special. No offense to anyone either.

Hmmm I guess being well informed doesn't amount to skill but doesn't it count how you USE your knowledge that's what I always thought

Joy_Division · August 2015

I do agree with the OP's general sentiment that stuff like dubious mechanics and the copycat nature of competition level the playing field more than most us would like. And to that, I would add the elements of luck and circumstance play important roles - a fortunate proc or the virtue of 1vXing inexperienced opponents will inflate our egos more than it should.

That being said, I think skill is still significant. At least for NBs, which I think it the most difficult class to play. Think of all the NB opponents you have fought; the gap between the very good and very bad is night and day.

Ezareth · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

So i dunno, just rambling after a long night of PvP with mixed emotions about the future of the game. I dont think anything any of us are doing today is anything special. No offense to anyone either.

As has been mentioned before then....what *IS* skill if not for the things we mentioned?

What we have identified is that there are many "tiers" of players out there who have varying levels of " success"

I've seen very successful zergball groups who are never threatened and mop up everyone in their path.

I've seen gankers who can consistently 1/2 shot people and disappear before anyone is the wiser.

I've seen players and small groups who can consistently take on groups of player 2-4 times their size and win most of the time.

I've seen single players who despite having 4 or 5 people on them can survive and often take 1 or 2 others down with them, sometimes killing them all.

Skill is measured in many ways, but I don't know of a player who has only played this game 3 to 6 months who could take on a Fengrush or an Araxleon or any other old school ESO player and win short of a stroke of luck/lag/bug. You just don't pick all of our knowledge and reaction times up overnight or even in a couple months of playing.

Ezareth · August 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The champion system.
Not only the passives... but the runaway increase in max stamina/magicka/health that goes with it.
Increasing stamina 50% increases damage 50%.
Increasing stamina 50% also increases the amount of hits before running out by 50%.
So you can use the highest cost versions of skills that do the most damage...animation cancelled of course to cut the time penalty...and do 50% moe damage by default.
So this is a gankers dream scenario for a burst build even without all CS passives to go with it.
New player comes into vet PVP and gets faced with these OP Gank builds.

The math isn't quite as bad as you make out.

Doubling your stam doesn't even come close to doubling your sustain as that isn't factoring your regen.

Doubling your stam doesn't double your damage or even close to that. It increases it by 25-30% at most.

Also don't forget that *all* of us got wrecked by players until we learned the game ourselves. As long as someone is determined to learn and improve and ask questions they'll quickly go from being a bad player to a more successful one.

Yonkit · August 2015

Clearly you've never seen me push the flying blade button twice in rapid succession to obliterate an enemy from stealth. I mean.... if you press it three times, you look like a fool, if you press it once, you won't get anywhere. Four is right out. The perfect amount of pressure applied to my hard-type mechanical keyboard with infinitely impeccable timing cannot and will not be replicated by any other player at any other time other than by myself. And while doing that, I must ensure that I do not in fact tap the control button and suddenly rise from stealth, or the potion button so that I do not break said stealth, while effectively using a tab target button to confirm a soft lock on the target. If you only knew of the inordinate amount of pressure that I face with every encounter, the waiting, the patience, the throwing, the second throwing, the retapping of control to return to stealth... surely you would call me more skilled than Naw Sunrest himself. Frankly... I think that all the mythic players in this game were rolled into one single amazingly skilled legendary player, that person would bear the title Yonkit.

But who am I to judge? This I do not know.

Kova · August 2015

Yonkit wrote: »

Clearly you've never seen me push the flying blade button twice in rapid succession to obliterate an enemy from stealth.... surely you would call me more skilled than Naw Sunrest himself.

Naw Sunrest? Stop the memory train, you've taken me back too far!

Reminds me of this old thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/119362/my-first-duel-against-dc

@Rylana , look how much you've changed!

I think this is an interesting discussion, but it's slowly leaning towards the question, "Is gimping yourself the only way to prove skill?" To which, playing as a suicidal combo sorc without engine/healer/seducer, I would say...probably. Because finding and killing exploiters becomes easier everyday.

"Oh look, double mundus rollerblade. Bet he'll WB spam me. Oh wow, that other sorc is trying to kite me....1v1.... and he somehow has two extra skills without switching bars..."

Gilvoth · August 2015

if we enter the ring and i have a HUGE BEAST CLUB and you only have a butterknife does that mean im skilled?
of course it doesnt!
it means im gona win every time because i am over powered.
the classes in eso are not balanced. some classes are overpowered and do MORE damage then other classes.
stamina duel wield nightblades and templars are the weakest,
dragonights and sorcerers are the strongest damage output and longest survivability.

Araxleon · August 2015

Get on my level

Rylana · August 2015

Kova wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Clearly you've never seen me push the flying blade button twice in rapid succession to obliterate an enemy from stealth.... surely you would call me more skilled than Naw Sunrest himself.

Naw Sunrest? Stop the memory train, you've taken me back too far!

Reminds me of this old thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/119362/my-first-duel-against-dc

@Rylana , look how much you've changed!

I think this is an interesting discussion, but it's slowly leaning towards the question, "Is gimping yourself the only way to prove skill?" To which, playing as a suicidal combo sorc without engine/healer/seducer, I would say...probably. Because finding and killing exploiters becomes easier everyday.

"Oh look, double mundus rollerblade. Bet he'll WB spam me. Oh wow, that other sorc is trying to kite me....1v1.... and he somehow has two extra skills without switching bars..."

Oh man, that is old school, i remember writing that post and still remember that fight o.o