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If its so much "fun" to not regen stamina while blocking

  • amgame308_ESO
    amgame308_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Just like with the economy and no global AH players seen so conditioned to how it used to be and not look at what it could be. Vanilla WoW you had to use CC to mobs, same as how the Vet ranks were, it was hard if you just run in and try to burn down the mobs. I used crowd control and had no problems during three early going of Vet Ranks. They are going an actual interactive combat system that is something other than stack and burn or stand and burn.
    Pre nerfed Ash Titan in Vet CoA did a pretty good job of this, you couldn't just stand there, you had to stop blocking, sprint out of the flames, block and taunt. It was fun and a challenge as a tank. Now you just stack and burn again.

    Give it a chance, two weeks and most of you will be back to stack and burn. I had no problems in White Tower as a tank, cleared it first try.

    If you really can't function as a tank without standing and blocking the entire time this game is only going to get more difficult for you. Go healing or dps if you can't handle it.
  • Wing
    Wing
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    not a single word in the patch notes and still no recognition from ZoS about this.

    FU too ZoS, FU too.
    ESO player since beta.
    full time subscriber.
    PC NA
    ( ^_^ )

    You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods -Xenogears
  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    ✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    sebban wrote: »
    If something is broken in PvP, you don't break PvE to fix it!

    Tanks holding block in PvE is NOT "problematic". Not at all. .

    Yes, it is.

    You are not supposed to taunt & tank everything as a tank, that makes the gameplay extremely boring not only for tanks, but for DPS & Healer characters. Everything becomes a "taunt that, taunt this, rest AoE & healer spam heals", which was boring enough to drive most of the hardcore PvErs I knew away from the game.
    sebban wrote: »
    If you think tanking is only about holding block and taunting and you think this is "boring", well you are doing it wrong! Tanking is so much more than that. If this change makes it to live server, then, yes that is exactly what will happen! Tanks will only be able to hold block and taunt and nothing else, cause we will be too scared to use our resources for anything else.

    Releasing block at the wrong moment means you can get one-shot. If you have any lag at all (which is fairly common), you can not release block at anytime, since lag might make you miss that critical block.

    Oh that's right, you currently also deal damage and heal as a tank, then defend how it's "balanced" on the forums that you can do all that while infinitely mitigating 90% of damage coming from 5-20 enemies.

    You are not supposed to deal damage or heal as a tank, you're supposed to tank the few dangerous enemies that hit hard.

    Now, whether there's enough tanking oriented skills in the game is another matter.

    Dear @ZOS_RichLambert

    Can you please help us settle a debate that has been going on about what tanks are supposed to be doing in this game?

    I have quoted the perspective of @DDuke who is saying tanking should be a very specific way.

    I believe that the only way tanking should be is what players make it. A few things that back up my claims are the following examples from ESO Live broadcasts.

    A. I believe you developers all appreciate build diversity because of the comments made about hybrid builds. Those would be builds focused on magic and stamina and you are giving us prismatic enchantments to help players not have to play in such a set in stone way.

    B. There has also been a push to make a stamina based sorcerer more competitive. Such an endeavor seems to me as though it supports roles not being shoehorned into preconceived notions of what certain classes should be doing.

    C. Eric Wrobel commented about the cleverness of players who are equipping daggers as a magic based DPS or healer. He appreciated that use of game mechanics and that commentary points to game development being very open with regards to what players allowed to do.

    I have other reasons as to why it is important for tanks to not just hold block and I don't feel as though that many of us do, but it worries and saddens me that tanks are being pushed into certain ways of playing by the stamina regeneration nerf. Not only are we being pushed into those ways, but people who want the change to happen, who don't tank, and who have set in stone opinions of how all tanks should be playing, such as @DDuke , are cheering the stamina regeneration nerf on.

    I don't expect a response from you toward myself or friend, but I hope that through this dialogue, I can help you recognize how an archetype of people who want this change to occur are those who have a very different vision of the game than what you developers seem to have. They are people who literally have the goal of making tanks do less via the stamina regeneration nerf. Being more confined has been one of the nerfs effects and that effect seems contrary to the intended consequence that Eric Wrobel discussed during ESO Live.

    P.S. Does Eric Wrobel have a contact on the forums? I would have talked to him directly considering most of my examples in this post are with regards to ideas he has had, but I'm not sure what name he goes by on the forums. I have a more comprehensive post about the stamina regeneration nerf that I have been working and would like to bring Eric into that future discussion once I post it.

    Thank You,
    LT
    Edited by Personofsecrets on August 12, 2015 5:42PM
    Don't tank

    "In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel
  • Asrien
    Asrien
    ✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    sebban wrote: »
    If something is broken in PvP, you don't break PvE to fix it!

    Tanks holding block in PvE is NOT "problematic". Not at all. .

    Yes, it is.

    You are not supposed to taunt & tank everything as a tank, that makes the gameplay extremely boring not only for tanks, but for DPS & Healer characters. Everything becomes a "taunt that, taunt this, rest AoE & healer spam heals", which was boring enough to drive most of the hardcore PvErs I knew away from the game.
    sebban wrote: »
    If you think tanking is only about holding block and taunting and you think this is "boring", well you are doing it wrong! Tanking is so much more than that. If this change makes it to live server, then, yes that is exactly what will happen! Tanks will only be able to hold block and taunt and nothing else, cause we will be too scared to use our resources for anything else.

    Releasing block at the wrong moment means you can get one-shot. If you have any lag at all (which is fairly common), you can not release block at anytime, since lag might make you miss that critical block.

    Oh that's right, you currently also deal damage and heal as a tank, then defend how it's "balanced" on the forums that you can do all that while infinitely mitigating 90% of damage coming from 5-20 enemies.

    You are not supposed to deal damage or heal as a tank, you're supposed to tank the few dangerous enemies that hit hard.

    Now, whether there's enough tanking oriented skills in the game is another matter.

    Dear @ZOS_RichLambert

    Can you please help us settle a debate that has been going on about what tanks are supposed to be doing in this game?

    I have quoted the perspective of @DDuke who is saying tanking should be a very specific way.

    I believe that the only way tanking should be is what players make it. A few things that back up my claims are the following examples from ESO Live broadcasts.

    A. I believe you developers all appreciate build diversity because of the comments made about hybrid builds. Those would be builds focused on magic and stamina and you are giving us prismatic enchantments to help players not have to play in such a set in stone way.

    B. There has also been a push to make a stamina based sorcerer more competitive. Such an endeavor seems to me as though it supports roles not being shoehorned into preconceived notions of what certain classes should be doing.

    C. Eric Wrobel commented about the cleverness of players who are equipping daggers as a magic based DPS or healer. He appreciated that use of game mechanics and that commentary points to game development being very open with regards to what players allowed to do.

    I have other reasons as to why it is important for tanks to not just hold block and I don't feel as though that many of us do, but it worries and saddens me that tanks are being pushed into certain ways of playing by the stamina regeneration nerf. Not only are we being pushed into those ways, but people who want the change to happen, who don't tank, and who have set in stone opinions of how all tanks should be playing, such as @DDuke , are cheering the stamina regeneration nerf on.

    I don't expect a response from you toward myself or friend, but I hope that through this dialogue, I can help you recognize how an archetype of people who want this change to occur are those who have a very different vision of the game than what you developers seem to have. They are people who literally have the goal of making tanks do less via the stamina regeneration nerf. Being more confined has been one of the nerfs effects and that effect seems contrary to the intended consequence that Eric Wrobel discussed during ESO Live.

    P.S. Does Eric Wrobel have a contact on the forums? I would have talked to him directly considering most of my examples in this post are with regards to ideas he has had, but I'm not sure what name he goes by on the forums. I have a more comprehensive post about the stamina regeneration nerf that I have been working and would like to bring Eric into that future discussion once I post it.

    Thank You,
    LT

    I agree with all of this, I'm very concerned about the direction the game's taking, and the last comment I saw from ZOS on the subject was basically "suck it up we don't care if we lose players", which is terrible for someone who IS a player, and enjoys most of the game in its current un-nerfed form. I feel like the game should go in the opposite direction to fix things, up other stats in other areas if blocking is an issue, don't fundamentally change the way one class plays because other people can't handle it. Provide tools to fix the issue instead of ripping an entire play style apart.
  • DargusMaximus
    DargusMaximus
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    Asrien wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    sebban wrote: »
    If something is broken in PvP, you don't break PvE to fix it!

    Tanks holding block in PvE is NOT "problematic". Not at all. .

    Yes, it is.

    You are not supposed to taunt & tank everything as a tank, that makes the gameplay extremely boring not only for tanks, but for DPS & Healer characters. Everything becomes a "taunt that, taunt this, rest AoE & healer spam heals", which was boring enough to drive most of the hardcore PvErs I knew away from the game.
    sebban wrote: »
    If you think tanking is only about holding block and taunting and you think this is "boring", well you are doing it wrong! Tanking is so much more than that. If this change makes it to live server, then, yes that is exactly what will happen! Tanks will only be able to hold block and taunt and nothing else, cause we will be too scared to use our resources for anything else.

    Releasing block at the wrong moment means you can get one-shot. If you have any lag at all (which is fairly common), you can not release block at anytime, since lag might make you miss that critical block.

    Oh that's right, you currently also deal damage and heal as a tank, then defend how it's "balanced" on the forums that you can do all that while infinitely mitigating 90% of damage coming from 5-20 enemies.

    You are not supposed to deal damage or heal as a tank, you're supposed to tank the few dangerous enemies that hit hard.

    Now, whether there's enough tanking oriented skills in the game is another matter.

    Dear @ZOS_RichLambert

    Can you please help us settle a debate that has been going on about what tanks are supposed to be doing in this game?

    I have quoted the perspective of @DDuke who is saying tanking should be a very specific way.

    I believe that the only way tanking should be is what players make it. A few things that back up my claims are the following examples from ESO Live broadcasts.

    A. I believe you developers all appreciate build diversity because of the comments made about hybrid builds. Those would be builds focused on magic and stamina and you are giving us prismatic enchantments to help players not have to play in such a set in stone way.

    B. There has also been a push to make a stamina based sorcerer more competitive. Such an endeavor seems to me as though it supports roles not being shoehorned into preconceived notions of what certain classes should be doing.

    C. Eric Wrobel commented about the cleverness of players who are equipping daggers as a magic based DPS or healer. He appreciated that use of game mechanics and that commentary points to game development being very open with regards to what players allowed to do.

    I have other reasons as to why it is important for tanks to not just hold block and I don't feel as though that many of us do, but it worries and saddens me that tanks are being pushed into certain ways of playing by the stamina regeneration nerf. Not only are we being pushed into those ways, but people who want the change to happen, who don't tank, and who have set in stone opinions of how all tanks should be playing, such as @DDuke , are cheering the stamina regeneration nerf on.

    I don't expect a response from you toward myself or friend, but I hope that through this dialogue, I can help you recognize how an archetype of people who want this change to occur are those who have a very different vision of the game than what you developers seem to have. They are people who literally have the goal of making tanks do less via the stamina regeneration nerf. Being more confined has been one of the nerfs effects and that effect seems contrary to the intended consequence that Eric Wrobel discussed during ESO Live.

    P.S. Does Eric Wrobel have a contact on the forums? I would have talked to him directly considering most of my examples in this post are with regards to ideas he has had, but I'm not sure what name he goes by on the forums. I have a more comprehensive post about the stamina regeneration nerf that I have been working and would like to bring Eric into that future discussion once I post it.

    Thank You,
    LT

    I agree with all of this, I'm very concerned about the direction the game's taking, and the last comment I saw from ZOS on the subject was basically "suck it up we don't care if we lose players", which is terrible for someone who IS a player, and enjoys most of the game in its current un-nerfed form. I feel like the game should go in the opposite direction to fix things, up other stats in other areas if blocking is an issue, don't fundamentally change the way one class plays because other people can't handle it. Provide tools to fix the issue instead of ripping an entire play style apart.

    Not to mention that ZOS and apparently Eric Wrobel will rather provide any "answer" regarding to 0 stamina regen while blocking as a piece of scrap, spread around into random reddit posts, spread over several forum posts and divided into few second statements or sentenced thrown around in various ESO live streams.
    Instead of making a fine and complete statement in form of a single forum post, that will contain what they think about tank role, how they see tanking, and what are the reasons behind this nerf stamina regen, they decide to hinde behind a wall of uncertainty. Dodging giving any precise and reliable answer.
  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    ✭✭
    Asrien wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    sebban wrote: »
    If something is broken in PvP, you don't break PvE to fix it!

    Tanks holding block in PvE is NOT "problematic". Not at all. .

    Yes, it is.

    You are not supposed to taunt & tank everything as a tank, that makes the gameplay extremely boring not only for tanks, but for DPS & Healer characters. Everything becomes a "taunt that, taunt this, rest AoE & healer spam heals", which was boring enough to drive most of the hardcore PvErs I knew away from the game.
    sebban wrote: »
    If you think tanking is only about holding block and taunting and you think this is "boring", well you are doing it wrong! Tanking is so much more than that. If this change makes it to live server, then, yes that is exactly what will happen! Tanks will only be able to hold block and taunt and nothing else, cause we will be too scared to use our resources for anything else.

    Releasing block at the wrong moment means you can get one-shot. If you have any lag at all (which is fairly common), you can not release block at anytime, since lag might make you miss that critical block.

    Oh that's right, you currently also deal damage and heal as a tank, then defend how it's "balanced" on the forums that you can do all that while infinitely mitigating 90% of damage coming from 5-20 enemies.

    You are not supposed to deal damage or heal as a tank, you're supposed to tank the few dangerous enemies that hit hard.

    Now, whether there's enough tanking oriented skills in the game is another matter.

    Dear @ZOS_RichLambert

    Can you please help us settle a debate that has been going on about what tanks are supposed to be doing in this game?

    I have quoted the perspective of @DDuke who is saying tanking should be a very specific way.

    I believe that the only way tanking should be is what players make it. A few things that back up my claims are the following examples from ESO Live broadcasts.

    A. I believe you developers all appreciate build diversity because of the comments made about hybrid builds. Those would be builds focused on magic and stamina and you are giving us prismatic enchantments to help players not have to play in such a set in stone way.

    B. There has also been a push to make a stamina based sorcerer more competitive. Such an endeavor seems to me as though it supports roles not being shoehorned into preconceived notions of what certain classes should be doing.

    C. Eric Wrobel commented about the cleverness of players who are equipping daggers as a magic based DPS or healer. He appreciated that use of game mechanics and that commentary points to game development being very open with regards to what players allowed to do.

    I have other reasons as to why it is important for tanks to not just hold block and I don't feel as though that many of us do, but it worries and saddens me that tanks are being pushed into certain ways of playing by the stamina regeneration nerf. Not only are we being pushed into those ways, but people who want the change to happen, who don't tank, and who have set in stone opinions of how all tanks should be playing, such as @DDuke , are cheering the stamina regeneration nerf on.

    I don't expect a response from you toward myself or friend, but I hope that through this dialogue, I can help you recognize how an archetype of people who want this change to occur are those who have a very different vision of the game than what you developers seem to have. They are people who literally have the goal of making tanks do less via the stamina regeneration nerf. Being more confined has been one of the nerfs effects and that effect seems contrary to the intended consequence that Eric Wrobel discussed during ESO Live.

    P.S. Does Eric Wrobel have a contact on the forums? I would have talked to him directly considering most of my examples in this post are with regards to ideas he has had, but I'm not sure what name he goes by on the forums. I have a more comprehensive post about the stamina regeneration nerf that I have been working and would like to bring Eric into that future discussion once I post it.

    Thank You,
    LT

    I agree with all of this, I'm very concerned about the direction the game's taking, and the last comment I saw from ZOS on the subject was basically "suck it up we don't care if we lose players", which is terrible for someone who IS a player, and enjoys most of the game in its current un-nerfed form. I feel like the game should go in the opposite direction to fix things, up other stats in other areas if blocking is an issue, don't fundamentally change the way one class plays because other people can't handle it. Provide tools to fix the issue instead of ripping an entire play style apart.

    Can you please reference the ZOS opinion that you mention. On the ESO Live with Wrobel, Wheeler, and Lambert, Eric stated that the stamina regeneration nerf is not something that is set in stone and they even acknowledge that there was very large negative feedback during the nerfs announcement and there still is only half of the feedback that is positive with regards to the nerf.
    Don't tank

    "In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel
  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    Just like with the economy and no global AH players seen so conditioned to how it used to be and not look at what it could be. Vanilla WoW you had to use CC to mobs, same as how the Vet ranks were, it was hard if you just run in and try to burn down the mobs. I used crowd control and had no problems during three early going of Vet Ranks. They are going an actual interactive combat system that is something other than stack and burn or stand and burn.
    Pre nerfed Ash Titan in Vet CoA did a pretty good job of this, you couldn't just stand there, you had to stop blocking, sprint out of the flames, block and taunt. It was fun and a challenge as a tank. Now you just stack and burn again.

    Give it a chance, two weeks and most of you will be back to stack and burn. I had no problems in White Tower as a tank, cleared it first try.

    If you really can't function as a tank without standing and blocking the entire time this game is only going to get more difficult for you. Go healing or dps if you can't handle it.

    Hi @amgame308_ESO , thank you for the interesting commentary. I have one question with some thoughts for you.

    How do you reconcile your ideas with the ideas of @DDuke ?

    That being, you seem to think that tanks don't want the change because they want to continue playing in a preconceived way based on past games. You are therefore for the change.

    @DDuke , on the other hand, seems to think that tanking should be the way it is in other games and follow a very specific path. They are therefore for the change.

    I don't see how the nerf can get tanking away from olden ways of doing things, but also reinforce those olden ways of doing things. To put it simply, a change can't cause two opposite effects.

    I think the real issue with tanking is hidden in the words of your comment. It is that enemies are being burned to the ground and not that tanks don't want to creatively interact with those enemies.
    Don't tank

    "In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel
  • tpanisiakb16_ESO
    tpanisiakb16_ESO
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    Thankfully, it didn't take too long for me to find another game to play. I just can't even be bothered to log into ESO any longer, and these recent patch notes did nothing to encourage me to return to this game part or full time.

    A pin-drop in the ocean, I'm sure, but I need ZOS and everyone who is defending this block nerf to understand that the changes to tanking were sought under the pretense that tanking on live is not "fun" or "engaging". I keep telling you over and over, the changes on PTS have reduced tanks to standing and holding block and refreshing their armor / spell resistance buffs. Nothing more because of the resources we lack. We can't afford to heroic strike or bash or do anything any longer without precise gear and optimal race setup. For me, at least, the most effective way I found tanking the PvE dungeons was to block everything and hope I have a chance to get a heavy attack in for some paltry stamina return. And no, I'm not chugging pots because I find that to be a stupid gimmick, and (in my opinion in playing RPGs and ARPGs) if you have to quaff them one after another in every single trash-pack fight to stay alive or resource-topped, your build is broken.

    So, no, ZoS, I'm a PvE'er, I am not going to be forced into PvP for PvE-type tanking gear.

  • amgame308_ESO
    amgame308_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    I'm not for or against, it just does not have the impact people believe it is going to have. Chicken Little needs to go home to roost, the tanking sky is not falling.

    The change to blocking just isn't that big of a deal. The current state of blocking not necessarily tanking allows for burning enemies to the ground. The perma block casting. Now you might actually have to bash, short sprint, dodge roll, actually use stamina mechanics that are available that require some decision making.

    Tanking is going to change little if at all. It is a non issue for tanks.
  • Wing
    Wing
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    Now you might actually have to bash, short sprint, dodge roll, actually use stamina mechanics that are available that require some decision making.

    Tanking is going to change little if at all. It is a non issue for tanks.

    bashing requires block and thus triggers the stamina regen tick reset, bashing effectively looses you whatever its costs to bash + your stamina regen + any hits you take during the block while you bashed, this can be thousands of stamina.

    a tank sprinting around is a silly idea and a waste, mobs have a long attack range and the concept of sprinting is costing you stamina, as well as you can only sprint forward meaning mobs are probably attacking you in the back, and players take more damage from NPC's to the back.

    tanks already dodge roll to avoid attacks, but considering now tanks are going to be playing a stamina management mini game rather then focusing on combat dodge rolling is going to be cut back on too, unless of course you mean dodge roll tanking, and with enough regen that could in fact be a thing in the future.

    and your last statement is just false, im not even going to justify it with a detailed response.


    ESO player since beta.
    full time subscriber.
    PC NA
    ( ^_^ )

    You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods -Xenogears
  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    ✭✭
    I'm not for or against, it just does not have the impact people believe it is going to have. Chicken Little needs to go home to roost, the tanking sky is not falling.

    The change to blocking just isn't that big of a deal. The current state of blocking not necessarily tanking allows for burning enemies to the ground. The perma block casting. Now you might actually have to bash, short sprint, dodge roll, actually use stamina mechanics that are available that require some decision making.

    Tanking is going to change little if at all. It is a non issue for tanks.

    Hi again @amgame308_ESO ,

    Can you please point out the fights where bashing, sprinting, dodge rolling, and other mechanics aren't used on live, but will have to be used after the stamina regeneration nerf?

    I ask because I think your point is a red herring. Tanks are already doing those things and, as many have pointed out, the nerf is causing tanks to do less interesting things, not more.

    I also hope that you can reconcile your opinions with the opinions of others who like the nerf because they want tanks to do less. What I am getting at is that if you are for the nerf, but also for tanks doing more interesting stuff, then you are on the wrong side of this change.
    Edited by Personofsecrets on August 12, 2015 8:39PM
    Don't tank

    "In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel
  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    Wing wrote: »
    Now you might actually have to bash, short sprint, dodge roll, actually use stamina mechanics that are available that require some decision making.

    Tanking is going to change little if at all. It is a non issue for tanks.

    bashing requires block and thus triggers the stamina regen tick reset, bashing effectively looses you whatever its costs to bash + your stamina regen + any hits you take during the block while you bashed, this can be thousands of stamina.

    a tank sprinting around is a silly idea and a waste, mobs have a long attack range and the concept of sprinting is costing you stamina, as well as you can only sprint forward meaning mobs are probably attacking you in the back, and players take more damage from NPC's to the back.

    tanks already dodge roll to avoid attacks, but considering now tanks are going to be playing a stamina management mini game rather then focusing on combat dodge rolling is going to be cut back on too, unless of course you mean dodge roll tanking, and with enough regen that could in fact be a thing in the future.

    and your last statement is just false, im not even going to justify it with a detailed response.


    This is what concerns me @Wing . If the player base is truly split on this change, then what proportion of that split, from the no and the yes votes, are players that tank? What proportion are players that mistakenly believe that a nerf can lead to tanks doing more? What proportion are player that fatally believe tanking in ESO should be the way tanking is in other games? What proportion are players who are PVP focused and want to have easier targets?
    Don't tank

    "In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel
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