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If its so much "fun" to not regen stamina while blocking

  • Bashev
    Bashev
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    They should just add a progressive stam regen penalty the longer you hold block so you can block when you want to but not permanently.
    Not bad proposal but it will be too much coding for ZoS. They dont like this. Also they will need to try to fix it every patch because it will be buggy. It is much easier to stop regen and that guy Eric will think that the problem is solved. Also when they showed us the IC video - there is no tank in their group fight.

    Because I can!
  • ZoM_Head
    ZoM_Head
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    I just saw that you were interested in how tanks do in trials so I figured I would post this video.

    The following video involved, to the best of my knowledge, a tank that let down block in order to attack for a ultimate generation buff (which doesn't have to be done, but maybe that was the case on the 1.6 PTS, or maybe they just wanted to try it).

    Pay very close attention to the tank at about the 2 minute 20 second mark.

    https://youtu.be/ZcntMLJ8ir0?t=120


    While blocking and 2-3 healers on him, look at his health drop and shoot back up from light attacks dealt by the Mantikora.

    Lets not forget the constant bleed and poison dots.

    Saw that part at 2:20....typical delay/issue there with Sanctum.
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  • Rinmaethodain
    Rinmaethodain
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    Bashev wrote: »
    They should just add a progressive stam regen penalty the longer you hold block so you can block when you want to but not permanently.
    Not bad proposal but it will be too much coding for ZoS. They dont like this. Also they will need to try to fix it every patch because it will be buggy. It is much easier to stop regen and that guy Eric will think that the problem is solved. Also when they showed us the IC video - there is no tank in their group fight.

    Yeah, apparently ZOS hates tanks. They claim this change is because tanking is "unattractive", whatever they mean by that. And they gave us an edited QA video.... where noone of testers was actually tanking....

    Next patch? ZOS removes "tank" icon from grouping tools and UI. From now there will be dps and heals only.
  • CaptainObvious
    CaptainObvious
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    Realistically, they should just have any ability use remove block status and the only way to re-engage it would be by a fresh right click.

    Have it prevent block casters by canceling all of their attacks when they reassert block. You will have characters that look like they are having seizures for a while, but it would be a more direct solution to the problem.

    The question is whether resource cost should be before or after usage. There are abilities that the cost can be canceled out of when you reflex block/cancel.
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  • The Uninvited
    The Uninvited
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    Zsymon wrote: »
    We are going to see a massive rise in magicka builds, after which magicka spells will get hit with even more penalties, after which people will just give up and quit. The dev team is on a crusade to destroy gameplay and enjoyment. I'm sure they don't want to ruin their own game, but that is what they are doing if they keep going this route.

    I'm afraid of this too...
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  • Robbmrp
    Robbmrp
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    I just saw that you were interested in how tanks do in trials so I figured I would post this video.

    The following video involved, to the best of my knowledge, a tank that let down block in order to attack for a ultimate generation buff (which doesn't have to be done, but maybe that was the case on the 1.6 PTS, or maybe they just wanted to try it).

    Pay very close attention to the tank at about the 2 minute 20 second mark.

    https://youtu.be/ZcntMLJ8ir0?t=120

    So your referring to the death where they got hit for 34k damage since they dropped the block. If the bosses are going to hit that hard in trials, and @ZOS is going to keep the 0 Stamina reduction for PVE also, then they need to lower the boss damage.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno, this video shows how hard the bosses are hitting in Trials. How is a tank supposed to be able to counter an attack like this when they are out of Stamina and getting 0 regen while blocking? Maybe the 0 Regen should only be applied to PVP and not PVE. After all, no one in PVE complained that they had too much stamina. People only complained about the constant PVP blockers with endless stamina. Instead of reducing Trial boss damage, just apply the 0 regen to PVP please.

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  • Vatter
    Vatter
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    I'll tell you what, you can have stamina regen while blocking back if ZOS completely removes block casting and ultimate regen while blocking from the game.

    Thats the problem in cyrodiil. zergs have 5-6 dks that just rush in holding block the entire time and spamming whip and talons then when everyone is nice and rooted without stamina (because in the infinite wisdom of ZOS talons doesn't give cc immunity) they just dragon leap.

    OR how about those dual wield NB's that follow the DK's into a crowd and hold block and spam steel tornado with mace impenetrable Completely ignoring your armor and doing 8k a hit.

    I think NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING is amazing and really hope that sos keeps it.

    PLEASE KEEP NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING!!!
  • Bashev
    Bashev
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    Vatter wrote: »
    I'll tell you what, you can have stamina regen while blocking back if ZOS completely removes block casting and ultimate regen while blocking from the game.

    Thats the problem in cyrodiil. zergs have 5-6 dks that just rush in holding block the entire time and spamming whip and talons then when everyone is nice and rooted without stamina (because in the infinite wisdom of ZOS talons doesn't give cc immunity) they just dragon leap.

    OR how about those dual wield NB's that follow the DK's into a crowd and hold block and spam steel tornado with mace impenetrable Completely ignoring your armor and doing 8k a hit.

    I think NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING is amazing and really hope that sos keeps it.

    PLEASE KEEP NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING!!!
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  • Baphomet
    Baphomet
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    One thing that does annoy me is that they come out with a new builds ever so often, each with a whole slew of new balance issues. I mean, why not stick to one build and balance than properly before screwing everything up anew?

    How about adding a "taunt" effect to monsters and have "taunt" prohibit blocking for 4 sec - sort of like a fear mechanics. Problem with block-casting is in PvE anyways - PvP absolutely needs to to balance the crazy burst damage.
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  • Wing
    Wing
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    Vatter wrote: »
    I'll tell you what, you can have stamina regen while blocking back if ZOS completely removes block casting and ultimate regen while blocking from the game.

    Thats the problem in cyrodiil. zergs have 5-6 dks that just rush in holding block the entire time and spamming whip and talons then when everyone is nice and rooted without stamina (because in the infinite wisdom of ZOS talons doesn't give cc immunity) they just dragon leap.

    OR how about those dual wield NB's that follow the DK's into a crowd and hold block and spam steel tornado with mace impenetrable Completely ignoring your armor and doing 8k a hit.

    I think NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING is amazing and really hope that sos keeps it.

    PLEASE KEEP NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING!!!

    I feel like im reading the past here?

    dk's have been garbage in pvp recently compared to NB's and Sorcs.

    further more this is all pvp, how about you learn what bypasses block (nearly every class has at least 1 skill that hard counters blocking)

    so TL:DR that post: I cannot defeat people blocking in pvp so ZoS should gut an entire aspect of the game because im bad.
    Edited by Wing on August 1, 2015 7:57PM
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  • Zlater
    Zlater
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    Wing wrote: »
    Zlater wrote: »

    LOL, that's awesome, sorcs are the best tanks in the game, GG ZOS!

    and you were not even using lightning form there, nice

    Haha lol lightning form is only for passive DPS ;D I play a sorc tank in live, believe me, lightning form is useless for tanking. anyone who approaches a sorc tank like they do a DK are going to be severely disappointed.
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  • Wing
    Wing
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    Zlater wrote: »
    Haha lol lightning form is only for passive DPS ;D I play a sorc tank in live, believe me, lightning form is useless for tanking. anyone who approaches a sorc tank like they do a DK are going to be severely disappointed.

    I rolled up a crappy pre fab V14 sorc and tried out sorc tank on the upper crag mobs

    . . .yeah, that's pretty damn funny. even with the crap base gear they give you I had NO problem tanking large mobs and killing them all, only used 4 skills too, the bound armor, lightning form, dark deal (the magicka for stam and hp obviously) and liquid lightning.

    even went 5 light 2 heavy just because your main source of stamina also heals you, then let the aoe do its work. I realize nothing was optimal but I was in a hurry, and still had no prob.

    very annoyed I have to level a flipin sorc too tank now though lol.
    Edited by Wing on August 2, 2015 5:32AM
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  • Stalwart385
    Stalwart385
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    Im starting to adapt to the change. Granted I havent ran any trials yet, only the new vet dungeons a few times. I have found that I end up staring at my resource bars alot more than I used to. Ill forget to taunt becuase im engrossed with balancing my health mana and stamina.

    In pvp I haven't noticed a huge difference in how I play. PvE has been a drastic change, more annoying than fun imo. True on live a tank can taunt one big guy, stand there the whole fight blocking and say he did his job. I tried to do much more, controling the whole battle. If you tank the serp and manti at the same time in SO HM, dont tell me its boring. In pts I feel my role is reduced down to only tanking and standing there. That alone is this big resource mini game where a lot of trust must be placed on your healer. I dont know if thats good for the game, but I miss being the overwatcher for the party, controling the flow of the battle. Now im so focused on my stats, I have no idea what everyone else is doing. Hopefully Ill become more comfortable with it in time and can watch my dps and healer more. For now I can only say Ive been annoyed that I cant do what I used to for my group.

    Ill fully adapt but I dont think tanking will ever be the same. Tanking is now more about dependence and self preservation, what I used to strive to be the polar opposite of.
  • Farorin
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    Perma blocking is an issue, but the 0 stam regen is not the answer we need, that is a knee jerk response that harms gameplay in general, rather than addressing the issue
  • Wing
    Wing
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    Im starting to adapt to the change. Granted I havent ran any trials yet, only the new vet dungeons a few times. I have found that I end up staring at my resource bars alot more than I used to. Ill forget to taunt becuase im engrossed with balancing my health mana and stamina.

    In pvp I haven't noticed a huge difference in how I play. PvE has been a drastic change, more annoying than fun imo. True on live a tank can taunt one big guy, stand there the whole fight blocking and say he did his job. I tried to do much more, controling the whole battle. If you tank the serp and manti at the same time in SO HM, dont tell me its boring. In pts I feel my role is reduced down to only tanking and standing there. That alone is this big resource mini game where a lot of trust must be placed on your healer. I dont know if thats good for the game, but I miss being the overwatcher for the party, controling the flow of the battle. Now im so focused on my stats, I have no idea what everyone else is doing. Hopefully Ill become more comfortable with it in time and can watch my dps and healer more. For now I can only say Ive been annoyed that I cant do what I used to for my group.

    Ill fully adapt but I dont think tanking will ever be the same. Tanking is now more about dependence and self preservation, what I used to strive to be the polar opposite of.

    really cannot agree with this more. its not more fun its just a hassle. ESO was not supposed to be about staring at bars (that's why healing is the way it is in this game)

    now instead of tanking and contributing on other meaningful ways, tanks are ONLY going to tank and focus on ONLY blocking and keeping there stamina up, gg ZOS.
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  • umagon
    umagon
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    I don't understand if they wanted to stop block casting, why not just make using skills cost more after block for more that a few a seconds? For example: possibly give people a 10 second window while holding block before skills cost more to use, then they have to drop blocking for 5 seconds before the cost reduction goes away. They could drop block and block again but if the 5 second window hasn't pass the skills still cost more to use and the 5 second timer resets. Those numbers are just to help illustrate the concept.
  • ColtPython
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    Why is it only stam that is being attacked? Meanwhile magic users can continue to cast and regen. This is not a balance fixed. Personally, while not a tank expert, from what I've seen in basic dungeons tanks are doing ok with the reduced block cost glyphs. I am not sure they will handle the AA axes or the Manti constant block party. However, as a stam dps on PTS i have given up block and rolling more than once. The opportunity cost is to great to give up the stam regen. Block casting will surely mean the end of my stam pool. Meanwhile as a magic dps I can block cast impulse for a long period still. As it stands right now, I will likely be shelving my stam dps characters or respecing to magic. Or worse, shelving the game entirely since this is the meta we had pre 1.6 where it was ESO =Equip Staff Only as stam pools just had too much strain on them to actually provide dps and survivability. I stood tall back then as a weak dw/bow stam NB (main) but I'm not sure I have another round in me even though my current toon stable has more magic users than stam.
  • Komma
    Komma
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    Its pretty simple really. Add to the cyrodiil buff that stamina does not regen while blocking and leave pve the way it is now on live.
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  • Emma_Overload
    Emma_Overload
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    Zlater wrote: »

    That only works when the incoming damage is kinda low. Dark Deal would really need to be instant cast instead of a 1 second cst for that to work. I've been using Dark Deal extensively on the PTS, and I've found it's more powerful when you use it to enable frequent Roll Dodges instead of Blocks, or right after a Break Free.

    Edited by Emma_Overload on August 2, 2015 5:10PM
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  • Emma_Overload
    Emma_Overload
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    Duplicate post, please remove.



    Edited by Emma_Overload on August 2, 2015 5:09PM
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • Rinmaethodain
    Rinmaethodain
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    Apparently, the ones that have most fun with "0 stamina regen while blocking" are only DPS PVP builds that are happy now that they one shot kill anyone and even if they stumble upon a tank they will finish him off quickly.

    Its obvious that PVP DPS will benefit the most from this change. Even the PTS is right now dominated by DPS classes for the sole purpose of testing ganking, stealing stones and hit'n'run techniques

    Then we have ridicolous statements on ESO live that "We have a lot of positive feedback about 0 stamina regen while blocking".

    Now this makes sense.

    DPS dominate IC (a PVP zone). And what every DPS want? KILL EVERYTHING. Of course a tank, a class that IS SUPPOSED to be able to not die from one shot is annoying hell out of them.

    What they do? While on mass on PTS they spam false /feedback just to give ZOS excuse to push trought this unjustified nerf. And ZOS have perfect excuse to nerf the last player role that is annoying they most favourite role -> the DPS.

    Thats why anyone who REALLY cares for future of ESO and PVE tanking should provide the real /feedback about "0 stamina regen while blocking"
  • byrom101b16_ESO
    byrom101b16_ESO
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    All Zenimax had to do was double the cost of blocking in PvP (via the pvp buff) and problem solved without fragging PvE tanking.

    But as usual, they jumped up and down on a symptom and not the root cause of the problem and created other problems elsewhere.

    I don't think they understand their own game sometimes...
    Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on August 4, 2015 8:08AM
  • byrom101b16_ESO
    byrom101b16_ESO
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    When are MMO developers going to learn to balance their classes from a PvP point of view BEFORE coding all the PvE content so they don't have to do this ridiculous swingy dance all the way through the life of the game?

    Make a good PvP game with class balance and resource management that can't be abused... then code all the mobs, bosses etc. to suit the classes as they are.

    But no... they program the PvE stuff first, then throw in PvP, then spend forever trying to fix one to the detriment of the other.

    Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on August 4, 2015 8:11AM
  • Dreddnawt
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    Wing wrote: »
    then why not also stop regen while doing damage or healing?

    if tanks cannot regen while. . .tanking then why not also remove the ability for healers to regen while healing, and dps to regen while doing damage. they can do the same thing and fit in some heavy attacks. im sure they will have to. . .L2P. . .(snicker) at first but it will be more "fun" im sure.

    I would like to point out that the reason most tanks block is the fact that 50% damage mitigation is not enough to actually "tank" stuff and your are required to block to cut down damage to reasonable tank levels. for instance the well known manticore that even capped at 50% mitigation can still one shot. I would be fine with blocking being changed to situational if the content was designed for it to be, its not though.

    perhaps if blocking has been overall too cheap and heavy armor requires more tankiness replace the 5 set bonus with a flat damage reduction bonus (like nord etc.) that's like 10/20% at rank 1/2 this makes tanking without holding block more viable and block more expensive. . .notice how I shifted power there instead of knee jerk 0 RECOVERY WHILE BLOCKING!!

    my original idea to reduce all regens for everyone to 0 was obviously in an attempt to show how STUPID the current change is, but I would find it hilarious and now be fairly unsurprised if ZOS was like "that's not a bad idea. . ."

    SUPER FANTASTIC IDEA THERE!!!!!

    So we are going to nerf Stamina Regen to 0 while Blocking. Lets also remove Magicka Regen while casting and Health Regen while... living!!! YEAH GREAT NO REGEN FOR ANYONE EVER MEANS MORE CHALLENGE EQUALS MORE FUN!!! Yippeee!!!

    ^ Do not doubt, ZOS will implement this.

    /sarcastic rant off
    Edited by Dreddnawt on August 12, 2015 4:37PM
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  • Dreddnawt
    Dreddnawt
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    Realistically, they should just have any ability use remove block status and the only way to re-engage it would be by a fresh right click.

    Have it prevent block casters by canceling all of their attacks when they reassert block. You will have characters that look like they are having seizures for a while, but it would be a more direct solution to the problem.

    The question is whether resource cost should be before or after usage. There are abilities that the cost can be canceled out of when you reflex block/cancel.

    OMG an idea that would actually fix Blockcasting walls in PvP without breaking the Tank role and the entirety of PvE in the process!?!? Preposterous!!

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  • sebban
    sebban
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    If something is broken in PvP, you don't break PvE to fix it!

    Tanks holding block in PvE is NOT "problematic". Not at all.

    If you think tanking is only about holding block and taunting and you think this is "boring", well you are doing it wrong! Tanking is so much more than that. If this change makes it to live server, then, yes that is exactly what will happen! Tanks will only be able to hold block and taunt and nothing else, cause we will be too scared to use our resources for anything else.

    Releasing block at the wrong moment means you can get one-shot. If you have any lag at all (which is fairly common), you can not release block at anytime, since lag might make you miss that critical block.
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  • Swarog
    Swarog
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    sebban wrote: »
    If you have any lag at all (which is fairly common), you can not release block at anytime, since lag might make you miss that critical block.

    Agree. It's very important reason to hold block always. It's not about our skill, it's just the real world of more or less lags. Try to hold block and flip skill bars every 2-5 secs and Mantikora or Axes may one-shot you.
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  • DDuke
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    sebban wrote: »
    If something is broken in PvP, you don't break PvE to fix it!

    Tanks holding block in PvE is NOT "problematic". Not at all. .

    Yes, it is.

    You are not supposed to taunt & tank everything as a tank, that makes the gameplay extremely boring not only for tanks, but for DPS & Healer characters. Everything becomes a "taunt that, taunt this, rest AoE & healer spam heals", which was boring enough to drive most of the hardcore PvErs I knew away from the game.
    sebban wrote: »
    If you think tanking is only about holding block and taunting and you think this is "boring", well you are doing it wrong! Tanking is so much more than that. If this change makes it to live server, then, yes that is exactly what will happen! Tanks will only be able to hold block and taunt and nothing else, cause we will be too scared to use our resources for anything else.

    Releasing block at the wrong moment means you can get one-shot. If you have any lag at all (which is fairly common), you can not release block at anytime, since lag might make you miss that critical block.

    Oh that's right, you currently also deal damage and heal as a tank, then defend how it's "balanced" on the forums that you can do all that while infinitely mitigating 90% of damage coming from 5-20 enemies.

    You are not supposed to deal damage or heal as a tank, you're supposed to tank the few dangerous enemies that hit hard.

    Now, whether there's enough tanking oriented skills in the game is another matter.
    Edited by DDuke on August 12, 2015 5:11PM
  • Wing
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    DDuke wrote: »
    sebban wrote: »
    If something is broken in PvP, you don't break PvE to fix it!

    Tanks holding block in PvE is NOT "problematic". Not at all. .

    Yes, it is.

    You are not supposed to taunt & tank everything as a tank, that makes the gameplay extremely boring not only for tanks, but for DPS & Healer characters. Everything becomes a "taunt that, taunt this, rest AoE & healer spam heals", which was boring enough to drive most of the hardcore PvErs I knew away from the game.
    sebban wrote: »
    If you think tanking is only about holding block and taunting and you think this is "boring", well you are doing it wrong! Tanking is so much more than that. If this change makes it to live server, then, yes that is exactly what will happen! Tanks will only be able to hold block and taunt and nothing else, cause we will be too scared to use our resources for anything else.

    Releasing block at the wrong moment means you can get one-shot. If you have any lag at all (which is fairly common), you can not release block at anytime, since lag might make you miss that critical block.

    Oh that's right, you currently also deal damage and heal as a tank, then defend how it's "balanced" on the forums that you can do all that while infinitely mitigating 90% of damage coming from 5-20 enemies.

    You are not supposed to deal damage or heal as a tank, you're supposed to tank the few dangerous enemies that hit hard.

    Now, whether there's enough tanking oriented skills in the game is another matter.


    this person supports the change to blocking.

    they are also a V14 Nightblade that PvP's heavily, no ulterior motives here at all people im sure of it.
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    PC NA
    ( ^_^ )

    You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods -Xenogears
    DK one trick
  • Rinmaethodain
    Rinmaethodain
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Its funny when people claim that "Tanking became boring taunt taunt hold block rest AoE & healer spam heals" and decide to make Tanks the scapegoat of ESO.

    And noone bothered to think, that even if tanking hypothetically could be boring "taunt taunt hold block" the real reason would be because DPS classes in this game became too OP? The damage output is so high that it allows hypothetically taunt'n'block and wait it out till DPS (who spent year in game, maxed out skills, got perfect cookie cutter build from youtube video and have perfect gear and knows all skills exploits) will finish everything off. And all people do (mostly PVP DPSes) is to conveniently blame everything on tank.

    LOL
    #DPSareOP
    #NerfAllDPS

    Lmao, the "0 stamina regen while blocking" is one big joke, too bad ZOS missed 1st of april.
    Edited by Rinmaethodain on August 12, 2015 5:20PM
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