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A Commentary on Templars

  • tplink3r1
    tplink3r1
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    Radial Sweep is just useless for PVP with its 5 meters range.
    VR16 Templar
    VR3 Sorcerer
  • Alcast
    Alcast
    Class Representative
    tplink3r1 wrote: »
    Radial Sweep is just useless for PVP with its 5 meters range.

    + it can be dodged
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  • acw37162
    acw37162
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    PS4 player so only 7 or 8 weeks in......

    Have a level 43 Templar and I'd have to say the most frustrating aspect is the movement speed, a ability or morphed ability somewhere that grants major expidition would be very welcome.

    A slightly larger rune for Runs Focus or the ability to place the rune would be a welcome addition.
  • Radburn
    Radburn
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    The info is presented well, very nice and clean.

    I read the Aedric spear section and did not read any further. The majority of your content is fluff, stuff we already know about the class. Some observations are valid, however playing as stamina you missed a couple things.

    Puncturing sweeps - You stated the knock back should be changed to a snare. What about the 50% reduction to damage and the 50% reduction to healing both hitting this ability?

    Sun Ward - This is what really through me off, any magicka based Templar that uses this ability knows it is not worth slotting on PTS. If you slot this skill it will absorb a low amount of damage, and allow the remainder to hit unmitigated. If you decide to bump up your health to strengthen the shield it will come at the cost of damage output. With the 50% reduction to shields this is not advised, you are gimping yourself choosing health. It will cost you a large amount of Magicka to cast. It will cost you one of your 5 slots on your bar. It will cost you 1.5 seconds to cast it, while the person wailing on you will utilize that 1.5 seconds to animation cancel 2-3 hits out damaging your shield by far and eventually killing you.

    Blazing Shield - Again, we are hit by double 50% reductions on the amount absorbed and the damage returned.

    Aurora Javelin - Making the damage increase the closer the target will not benefit me at all. I have used the skill in a build, and my play style was to keep the person at range where I get 40% increased damage and if they are a NB or melee DK they are not hitting me.

    I am sorry to say that while you think you may understand the templar class well, you cannot speak for everyone.

    Edited by Radburn on August 3, 2015 7:01PM
  • tinythinker
    tinythinker
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    manny254 wrote: »
    I think the largest issue with the templar class is that people try make it do what it is not for. Everyone wants to play in this 1v1/1vX legend play style or dodge roll around like maniacs. This is just not what templar is good at, and pointless in the actual alliance war. My stamina builds absolutely destroys most players, but it does so because I use it to actually play the objective. Templar is the weakest class to run around ignoring the objective and being useless to your faction, but it is one of the strongest while playing the objective.
    That's why I support changes that round out all forms of play that suit the Templars' strengths rather than those that try to re-write the class, but there is a lot of room for improvement even within those parameters to suit how the game is changing.

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  • Akinos
    Akinos
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    manny254 wrote: »
    I agree with the op's post.
    Akinos wrote: »
    Moricu wrote: »
    have you seen @blabafat ? one of the best templar pvp players around

    I talk to blabafat almost everyday about templar stuff. And yes, even he knows and agrees that templars are the weakest of the 4 classes in almost all aspects. Being one of the best, most well known players doesn't mean they don't think their class couldn't use some improvement. Ebonheart Templar has said the same thing also.

    That being said, they, like everybody else that didn't reroll the moment they realized that templars aren't up to par, we're just trying our best to adapt with the few tools that we were given.
    I think the largest issue with the templar class is that people try make it do what it is not for. Everyone wants to play in this 1v1/1vX legend play style or dodge roll around like maniacs. This is just not what templar is good at, and pointless in the actual alliance war. My stamina builds absolutely destroys most players, but it does so because I use it to actually play the objective. Templar is the weakest class to run around ignoring the objective and being useless to your faction, but it is one of the strongest while playing the objective.

    Lastly people have been talking of the damage possible with a min maxed weapon power build on pts, but with the mechanics of jabs the most important things is positioning, and this is something that can not be taught in a build. So while a small amount of people will be able to make these builds work they will not be effective for most players.

    That defeats the purpose of the whole "play how you want because our game is so diverse" advertising thing that ZOS has been preaching since day 1. If 3 of the classes can be good at 1v1 and 1vX why can't templars?
    Dodge roll around like maniacs? You spend a good amount of time doing nothing but. And your stamina build destroying most players has absolutely nothing to do with you playing the objective or not. You don't magically somehow do more damage by rolling around in a zerg near a keep. Although that will change in 1.7 with the new Continuous Attack passive. As of right now on live, that's not the case. The damage you do has to do with your build and your weapon of choice.

    I am getting just a lil bit sick of all these players basically arguing everything, but in the end, their solution and answer to everything is almost always related to being a stamina based class.

    Want to have good survivability and stupid high dps? PLAY A STAMINA BUILD!
    Want to be able dodge roll to the moon and back? PLAY A STAMINA BUILD!
    Want to to be able to hit 20k wrecking blows and biting jabs? PLAY A STAMINA BUILD!
    Wanna be able to kill a shield stacking sorc? PLAY A STAMINA BUILD!


    Who needs religion, a wife, kids or anything else for that matter in their lives when you can just play a stamina build in ESO? You don't need food, water, or air to survive. You just need to be a stamina build in ESO, and that will solve all the problems of the world.
    Edited by Akinos on August 3, 2015 9:12PM
    PC NA | @AkinosPvP 1vX/Small Scaler, Raid Leader, Youtuber and Twitch.tv Streamer.MAGICKA MELEE IS LIFE!Magplar, MagDK, Magden, Magblade, Magsorc & Magcro PvP/Build videos & moretwitch.tv/akinospvp
  • Arbitrator
    Arbitrator
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  • manny254
    manny254
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    Akinos wrote: »
    manny254 wrote: »
    I agree with the op's post.
    Akinos wrote: »
    Moricu wrote: »
    have you seen @blabafat ? one of the best templar pvp players around

    I talk to blabafat almost everyday about templar stuff. And yes, even he knows and agrees that templars are the weakest of the 4 classes in almost all aspects. Being one of the best, most well known players doesn't mean they don't think their class couldn't use some improvement. Ebonheart Templar has said the same thing also.

    That being said, they, like everybody else that didn't reroll the moment they realized that templars aren't up to par, we're just trying our best to adapt with the few tools that we were given.
    I think the largest issue with the templar class is that people try make it do what it is not for. Everyone wants to play in this 1v1/1vX legend play style or dodge roll around like maniacs. This is just not what templar is good at, and pointless in the actual alliance war. My stamina builds absolutely destroys most players, but it does so because I use it to actually play the objective. Templar is the weakest class to run around ignoring the objective and being useless to your faction, but it is one of the strongest while playing the objective.

    Lastly people have been talking of the damage possible with a min maxed weapon power build on pts, but with the mechanics of jabs the most important things is positioning, and this is something that can not be taught in a build. So while a small amount of people will be able to make these builds work they will not be effective for most players.

    That defeats the purpose of the whole "play how you want because our game is so diverse" advertising thing that ZOS has been preaching since day 1. If 3 of the classes can be good at 1v1 and 1vX why can't templars?
    Dodge roll around like maniacs? You spend a good amount of time doing nothing but. And your stamina build destroying most players has absolutely nothing to do with you playing the objective or not. You don't magically somehow do more damage by rolling around in a zerg near a keep. Although that will change in 1.7 with the new Continuous Attack passive. As of right now on live, that's not the case. The damage you do has to do with your build and your weapon of choice.

    I am getting just a lil bit sick of all these players basically arguing everything, but in the end, their solution and answer to everything is almost always related to being a stamina based class.

    Want to have good survivability and stupid high dps? PLAY A STAMINA BUILD!
    Want to be able dodge roll to the moon and back? PLAY A STAMINA BUILD!
    Want to to be able to hit 20k wrecking blows and biting jabs? PLAY A STAMINA BUILD!
    Wanna be able to kill a shield stacking sorc? PLAY A STAMINA BUILD!


    Who needs religion, a wife, kids or anything else for that matter in their lives when you can just play a stamina build in ESO? You don't need food, water, or air to survive. You just need to be a stamina build in ESO, and that will solve all the problems of the world.

    I am afraid it is not this simple. To start with I play with a whopping total of 1k regen. So while I can dodge roll a little I have to make every single one count. What I am trying to say is terrain. If I walk out into a field with a sorc with no terrain I will get my a** kicked. This is because I am weak without LoS, and sorc is strongest in open combat. Around objectives such as keeps there is a great deal of things to use LoS. Tucking your self into a corner of a keep with jabs is amazing. I really shouldn't have to explain how the terrain of a keep battle is different then a open field fight. Also you should know I don't play in zerg. You don not need a zerg to play the objective.

    What I meant by templar being unable to do 1v1 or 1vX I meant in the manner that other classes do it. Dodge rolling alot is counter intuitive to how jabs works. Obviously we lack bolt escape, shadow cloak, or the ability to tank while dealing decent damage. This means we must depend on our terrain positioning. The best places to finds LoS across the whole map? Keeps. I see plenty of people trying to make builds that essentially try to do what makes the other class strong instead.

    I suggest playing a stamina build before you talk about how perfect they are. As I said before I play with 1k stamina regen in order to stack damage stats. If you think that lends it self to high survivability you are wrong. My ability to stay alive comes from positioning. Also my build is weakest against a shield stacking sorc as shields can not be crit. I also think that magicka needs some major improvements. I used to play magicka, but I like a melee play style and after 1.6 stamina made the most sense as a melee play style.
    - Mojican
  • Jakeol
    Jakeol
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    Templars are hitting pretty hard with a stam build, idk what you guys are stressed about
    Jaqqe'nova - EP v14 Nord NB
  • cmabouaf
    cmabouaf
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    Ffastyl wrote: »
    Templars are a jack-of-all-trades class, capable of both pure and hybrid builds. Having many support abilities, Templars are desired in virtually any group. Yet, they are near the bottom of the PvP ladder. Why? Templars are lacking in solo viability. Most of our abilities are group oriented, and to that end we are exceptional. But when it comes time to fight on our own, it takes careful planning and a skilled player to pull it off. The tweaks and fixes implemented in this Update add a couple tools to our arsenal but also weaken others. Our fighting styles will change but overall Templars are where they were in PvP - Great in groups and unwieldy solo.


    Divided and subdivided by spoiler tags for readability, below is my commentary of the Templar class as of Update 7.

    Aedric Spear
    This tree supports solo Templars the most by offering many forms of CC, self-defense and a single hard hitting ability.
    Puncturing Strikes -
    Puncturing Strikes is the hardest hitting ability available to Templars, Radiant Destruction coming in second. This is thanks to the bonus +140% damage for closest target and 4 strikes, triggering 4 checks for the Burning Light passive (25% chance to deal extra damage). It is an conal AoE too, allowing multiple targets to be hit and serving as a close-range counter to Cloak. But because it is an AoE positioning and movement are key to ensuring it connects. A 50% miss rate for Puncturing Strikes is decent accuracy on the player's part.

    Biting Jabs is the more well known morph and typically the harder hitting simply due to physical mitigation being less prevalent than magical mitigation. For a Stamina build, Biting Jabs deals damage just shy of Uppercut (or Wrecking Blow, the morph on death recaps everywhere). Including Burning Light, Biting Jabs can deal considerably (more than double) the damage of Uppercut. This is the bread and butter attack of Stamina Templars.

    Puncturing Sweeps is the magical equivalent of Biting Jabs and it offers healing as its perk. Templars are able to attack and heal simultaneously with this attack, creating a highly self-sustaining build. The knockback reviled by many comes in handy here, allowing a follow up Puncturing Sweeps for additional healing and damage before the opponent can react.

    The one second knockback, eliciting CC-immunity, is where many find fault with Puncturing Strikes. WIthout the CC-immunity it is child's play to stun lock opponents. Some call for it to be replaced by a snare, as it can restrict the target's ability to evade without inflicting CC-immunity. The knockback still has tactical advantage, as the target is essentially stunned for 1 second. A lot of damage can be dealt in 1 second -- Biting Jabs can be executed in 1 second!
    But the fact remains that the CC-immunity is far longer than the potential CC Puncturing Strikes offers. Reducing the duration of immunity it offers or increasing the duration of the CC will make it less painful to use when there are other CC options available.
    Piercing Javelin -
    Piercing Javelin is the only instantaneous hard-CC available to Templars. Take a look at all the other skills in each line... Piercing Javelin is the only one without a cast time, delay, or secondary condition. The damage has been buffed in Update 7, making it more bearable to use.
    As an archer, this ability is a great replacement for Magnum Shot, offering the same knockback and tapping into the Magicka pool rather than Stamina.

    Some Templars make creative use of Piercing Javelin with Critical Rush (Two-Handed skill), using Piercing Javelin to instantaneously create extra distance to earn more bonus damage on Critical Rush.

    Aurora Javelin deals more damage at further ranges, which is counterintuitive to the reflexive use of this skill: to knockback someone getting too close. As a result, Binding Javelin is the favored morph for it extends the CC duration. Binding Javelin's CC is identical to Uppercut (knockback/down and 3.5 second stun), but without the cast time, high damage and has ~3x the range.

    Aurora Javelin can be improved by reversing the damage bonus conditions. Grant more damage based on how close the target is to the caster. This rewards using it for the intended purpose of creating distance.
    Focused Charge -
    Focused Charge is the sole (effective) gap closer within the Templar's toolkit. It rarely deals notable damage to target and until recently was unresponsive and clunky. The bonus Focused Charge offers, beside closing the distance in an aesthetically satisfying manner, is interrupting casting targets. Toppling Charge adds a 2.4 second stun without auxiliary conditions, aside from the 3.5m minimum range requirement. Explosive Charge deals AoE damage on impact, which is decent in that regard as secondary targets take equal damage to the primary (no splash damage).

    Piercing Charge is situationally useful and the time delay it takes to travel to target vastly shortens the window for interrupting casters, making it rare to get the full potential from this ability. It is still a Magicka based gap closer, greatly reducing strain on the Stamina pool as one attempts to hound a runner (or streaker). However the damage is lackluster, so it is only used to close gaps, if at all.

    The off-balance debuff is inflicted so rarely in actual combat that it may as well not be part of the ability. Making the off-balance status guaranteed to trigger, or removing it in favor of increased base damage, will help add utility to Piercing Charge.
    The ability to interrupt casters is unique, and while rarely achieved, is still an effect I have been thankful for in the past.
    Spear Shards -
    To allies it is a gift from the Divines, restoring 25% Stamina up front and continued restoration for an additional 10 seconds. Veteran armies mandate Templars use this ability, as near infinite Stamina is a priceless boon. For the Templar throwing these, Spear Shards is ranged a AoE CC that inflicts minor damage. The morph Blazing Spear adds a pulsing DoT, which helps counter Cloak and has a chance of proccing Burning Light. Luminous Shards adds Magicka restoration to the Stamina, which does not assist the Templar.

    When well aimed, Spear Shards can be used to close gaps by stunning/disorienting the pursued. However the ability goes through 3 animations from button press before it hits the impact zone: the Templar throwing the spear upwards, the spear racing down from the heavens, and the spear fragmenting just above ground as the bulk impacts the target area. When lag is present, this can mean up to a minute before the spear lands. Consolidating the animations to 2 or less (throwing and impact) will reduce the delay and drastically reduce the potential delay to impact during lag.

    The ability for Templars to use the synergy of spears they have thrown will add to solo viability. However, using the synergy unaltered is overpowered (the Templar can spam the spear to restore resources rapidly, even with 6 second cooldown between synergies) so the caster should receive a greatly reduced version. Either scrapping the instant 25% Stamina and receiving only the over-time restoration of resources or receiving a reduced version of both (e.g. 12% Stamina and 800 over 10 seconds or even weaker). This tweak will make both morphs useful to solo Templars and make morph choice harder as only one restores both Magicka and Stamina. Right now, the morph choice comes down to whether the Templar prioritizes group (Luminous Shards) or solo (Blazing Spear) play.
    Sun Shield -
    "Sun Shield is what gives Templars their survivability."
    Sun Shield protects for 15% of the Templar's Health. This is enough to negate a single strong blow and provides merit to investing in health. The +4% per enemy hit goes seemingly unaffected by Battle Spirit (possibly bug), which means the Sun Shield truly shines in 1vX situations. The shield becomes strong when surrounded, resembling its strength without Battle Spirit. The morph Radiant Ward increases the bonus per enemy (to +5%) and reduces cost, making this a better damage shield. Favor is shifting towards this morph as the counter damage Blazing Shield was so feared for has been reduced.

    Blazing Shield and to a lesser extent Sun Ward, are the Templar's answer to aggressive melee combatants. Both increase in strength based on the number of enemies in melee distance and Blazing Shield reflects half the damage absorbed back at melee aggressors as AoE damage.

    The recent changes to Battle Spirit have made Blazing Shield less than it was but, contrary to the wailing, it is not useless. As stated above, 15% of Max Health is enough to take the edge off a blow. It may not absorb several blows like it used to, but the shield is strong enough to protect from even a Sweeper's stray spell. A weaker shield is better than no shield.

    Dawn's Wrath
    This tree has exceptional DPS and debuff abilities in it, but they are largely group oriented, requiring allies or a very specific build to get the most use out of.
    Sun Fire -
    Weak to moderate damage with a moderate DoT and snare. The snare and DoT are what attract people to this ability. It is a Magicka based snare, reducing strain on the Stamina pool, but most DoTs in ESO are negligible. Morph choice comes down to whether you want to snare multiple targets or a single target for a longer period of time.

    With the presence of gap closers and other sources of snare, Sun Fire has little utility.

    Removing the DoT to give it higher up-front damage while maintaining the snare effect afterward would make it like a Magicka Flying Blade (Dual Wield ability).

    Or a damage based HoT could be added, healing the Templar or an ally while the DoT is active for 10 to 50% of the DoT tick. e.g. 1000 damage up front followed by 2000 DoT over 6 sec, healing for 300 every 2 seconds (roughly half the DoT tick).

    In combination with one of the suggestions above (or some other alteration), Vampire's Bane could be replaced with a "Sun Veil" morph, granting Major Evasion and dealing local fire damage as the Templar is cloaked in fire (I imagine it as the Templar becoming made of sun fire, like Akatosh's avatar (see spoiler)).
    akatosh1.jpg
    This would bring back the lost Blinding Light ability in a different form. Using the similar stats as above, "Sun Veil" deals 100 damage every second to nearby enemies and lasts X seconds. The damage and/or duration could increase with each rank.
    Fans of Blinding Light would prefer duration, but the +20% duration from Enduring Rays (passive) needs to be taken into account. Currently Shuffle (Medium Armor ability) grants just Major Evasion for 23 seconds (and snare/root immunity for X*0.5 sec where X = worn # of Medium Armor pieces). Making "Sun Veil" similar in utility could be 16 second duration (for 19.2 with Enduring Rays) with small damage from the cloak or a larger damage tick from the fire and a shorter duration to compensate (e.g. 13 seconds and 200 damage per second or 8 seconds and 500 damage per second).
    Solar Flare -
    Solar Flare is an ability which can be used by solo Templars who focus on Magicka and Spell Damage. It deals decent damage, grants Empower and can be morphed to inflict Major Defile too, making it desired in groups.

    The gripe most people have with it is the time it takes to hit target after activating. There is a 1.1 second cast time followed by an arcing shot. This is actually fine as is, for Solar Flare's damage scales extremely well with Magicka and Spell Damage, hitting as hard if not harder than Crystal Fragments for Magicka focused builds. It just lacks the same oomph because it does not inflict hard-CC. Its visuals and audio may be a bit underwhelming too.

    The alternate morph, Solar Barrage, is extremely weaker by comparison -- at first glance. The closest skill in function to Solar Barrage is Impulse (Destruction Staff ability). Impulse has a 6m radius and decreasing damage as the target is further from the caster. Solar Barrage has an 8m radius, grants Empower and deals more damage than Impulse. As some have put it: "It's like having Impulse on any weapon you want."

    The issue with Solar Flare and its morphs is that the oomph they provide is not apparent from the visual and audio feedback, causing players without add-ons giving numbers to believe it is not hitting for much (we expect weaker abilities to hit faster, hence the call for no cast time on all morphs).
    Backlash -
    Backlash is a unique ability. Aside from the recent Magicka Detonation, this is one of two skills which are cast on a target and deal delayed damage (the other being Velocious Curse). It deals 33% of the damage inflicted on the target during the 6 seconds it is active, making it great for sudden burst but hard to time well. With a damage oriented build, it is possible to reach the damage cap on Backlash by oneself. Otherwise an ally is required to get the maximum damage out of Backlash.
    For solo play it is hit or miss based on the damage a Templar is geared to deal within 6 seconds.

    The damage cap was higher during testing for Update 6, scaling with Max [Resource] and Damage, which left caps of 10,000 damage not uncommon. It now scales with Max only, preventing the sudden 10k+ one-shots Templars might have become known for. But the current cap can be a little limiting when facing shield stackers or super tanks. Increasing the damage cap but reducing the absorption rate would be one way to tweak it (i.e. scales with Max and Damage but deals 25% of damage inflicted) or increasing the duration to give solo Templars a better opportunity to reach cap.
    These are suggested tweaks, not recommended, as Backlash already performs well for both solo and group play.
    Eclipse -
    Eclipse is the same as Solar Flare in that its value is lesser known. Eclipse reflects all single-target spells back at the caster and explodes at effect's end (whether by CC-break or duration end) and can be morphed to explode for more damage or for reflected spells to heal the Templar caster. Aside from some bugs that occur when certain spells are reflected (like Dark Talons), the shortcoming Eclipse is derailed for is being counted as hard-CC, therefore granting CC-immunity on Break Free.

    Eclipse, when well timed, is a complete counter to mages and magical builds. Experienced players CC-break immediately, which also lets it serve as a Stamina drain.
    But some players are frustrated by the CC-immunity it can grant. One way to address it is to have Eclipse function similar to Reflective Scales - it reflects a certain number of spells before expiring or when the duration ends. This can let it be counted as soft-CC since the target is not forced to wait the full duration.

    As is, Eclipse can be hard to wield correctly but when it is Eclipse can be very powerful.

    Personally,
    I would keep the higher skill requirement and potential power -- Leave Eclipse as is.

    The limit to one cast active at a time is subject for debate. It is fun to cast several spheres on several targets, but I have only needed to cast it on one target at a time.
    Radiant Destruction -
    Radiant Destruction is a well known ability at this point. Update 7 has reduced the base damage it deals and the bonus damage for Radiant Oppression. The change makes Radiant Destruction an inferior ability for Stamina builds; for Magicka it is still a viable attack and so far is not a one-button-win anymore.
    Radiant Destruction is the most solo-oriented ability in the Dawn's Wrath line and a staple attack for Magicka Templars.

    Restoring Light
    This tree contains many healing abilities. While they can be used to self-heal, all are group-oriented.
    Rushed Ceremony -
    Rushed Ceremony is the bread and butter of healing for Templars. It can heal for quite a bit with a Magicka focused build. The base heal is enough for small to moderate wounds with Stamina builds. The morph Breath of Life is the prefered one, as it heals 3 targets over 1, but Update 7 has made Honor the Dead able to compete. Honor the Dead offers better Magicka management by refunding itself over a period of time.

    Under the current -50% healing, Rushed Ceremony is no longer a clutch/ohS* heal. Dedicated healers can still make health bars move miles, but the average Templar cannot heal a great amount with Rushed Ceremony. This is good in that it reinforces the passive healing style implied by the Restoration Staff line, preventing players from relying on the healer alone to keep them alive.

    The smart targeting makes Breath of Life the better choice for solo Templars. Even if the main heal hits someone else, the secondary heals can still hit the caster.
    Healing Ritual -
    Healing Ritual is stronger and less costly than Rushed Ceremony, but it has a 2 second cast time and a 10m range compared to Rushed Ceremony's 28m. Lingering Ritual somewhat addresses the range issue by having a delayed secondary heal, while Ritual of Rebirth reduces the cast time by 0.3 seconds.
    This ability heals the caster by an extra 30%, making an already strong heal an even stronger self-heal.

    The biggest drawback to solo play is the cast time. Increasing the reduction to Ritual of Rebirth to 0.5 seconds would be a start, but 1.0 seconds would be better (but potentially overpowered for such a large heal).

    For group play, the small radius makes Healing Ritual inferior to Rushed Ceremony. Increasing the radius to 15m or even 12m will help increase the use this ability sees.
    Restoring Aura -
    Restoring Aura locks down a slot on bars for the passive +10% to all Regeneration. It can be activated to increase Health and Stamina Regeneration by another 20%. The morph Repentance is more well known as it provides instant recovery over Radiant Aura's extended radius.

    Having no passives related to regeneration (Restoring Spirit in Dawn's Wrath reduces the cost of all abilities by 4%), Restoring Aura is the only boost Templars have available. This ability allows Templars to have good regeneration for all resources (short of excellent), but at the cost of an ability slot. Templars that want the passive boost active at all times must settle for having only 4 ability slots on each bar to work with.
    For my own builds, that always means giving up an execute, a gap closer, or defensive ability.

    Reallocating the passive 10% increase to a passive ability or swapping the passive of Restoring Aura with the bonus of said passive ability (such as Mending) will free up the fifth slot for regeneration oriented Templars. Alternatively, Restoring Spirit could also grant +5% to all Regeneration, making Templars an equal to Nightblades in general regeneration with Restoring Aura also slotted (and Restoring Aura is no longer the sole source of in-class bonus regeneration for Templars).
    Cleansing Ritual -
    Cleansing Ritual is one of the few means a player has to remove debuffs. This makes it a powerful ability in the Templar's arsenal, save for the weakness that it only removes 1 debuff from the caster.

    The morph Purifying Ritual addresses this by increasing the debuffs removed to 5 at Rank IV. Extended Ritual increases the duration, but this is of dubious benefit.
    While it grants a larger timeframe for allies to activate the synergy, it grants little benefit to the caster and the healing provided by this ability is among the lower tier for passive heals. This morph may need to be revisited to grant additional healing or further extend the duration, as beyond the debuff removal it does not offer much that other abilities can do better.
    Rune Focus -
    Rune Focus is an interesting skill. It provides a major armor buff but requires the Templar to stand on the rune to remain active. The rune itself is about 5m in diameter, which is just big enough to dodge AoE attacks by an inch and still be standing on the rune. In Update 6 it received a necessary buff: the buff lasts for 8 seconds outside the rune and returning to it refreshes the buff. It is still restrictive of movement, but far less so than previously.

    The morph Channeled Focus returns Magicka every half second while the buff is active, refunding the ability cost by more than 100%. Even the 8 second duration outside the rune is long enough to get a full refund, so Templars can simply cast and forget without Magicka cost. The regeneration also helps maintain the use of Magicka abilities for all types of builds (While operating as a Stamina build and using Channeled Focus I have been mistaken for Magicka).

    Restoring Focus increases healing received by 8% for the caster and the passive Focused Healing increases healing for everyone inside the rune by 30%. This morph I admittedly have less experience with. It is a good match for healing focused Templars, but I cannot comment much beyond.

    Ultimates
    The signature moves of Templars. These are varied and useful in a variety of situations.
    Radial Sweep -
    The cheapest ultimate, at a cost of 72 with Restoring Spirit. It deals a modest amount of AoE damage and pulses several times before fading. Unfortunately, it often misses targets even within melee range. It can be used as a counter to Cloak due to its pulsing AoE.

    Empowering Sweep incurs a flat 15% damage reduction on swing, with a +4% damage reduction per enemy hit. This can let a Templar become highly damage resistant for a brief period of time (8 seconds), increasing the viability of solo play by boosting survivability against multiple foes. The low cost means it can be used frequently, though not constantly.

    Crescent Sweep increases the damage of the initial swing by 33% against targets in front of the Templar. Due to the miss rate this morph is less powerful than Empowering Sweep. It is in use amongst Templars, but uncommon. Buffing the damage this morph deals and removing the "in-front" condition will make it more of a room cleaner rather than a strong attack like Biting Jabs. Perhaps even adding an execute effect to it (+100% damage to low health targets, as with Whirlwind).
    Nova -
    This is the ultimate most known amongst non-Templars. It is the sun we call down to Mundus. It deals AoE damage and reduces damage dealt by 30% for those inside its vortex. The simple counter to Nova is stepping out of it. This ultimate has no CC to accompany it, though a synergy (which requires allies) can inflict stun and extra damage. Solar Disturbance adds a 60% snare, making it harder for enemies to escape its clutches. Super Nova boosts the effects of the synergy, a longer stun and more damage.

    At best Nova crushes groups and cripples enemy offense; at worst Nova is area-denial, restricting enemy movement. For such a high cost ultimate (288 with Restoring Spirit), it can be hard to get the full potential out of it. Solar Disturbance helps solo Templars, while Super Nova offers nothing to them. Imparting some CC to the base ability will make Nova more useful, such as a brief root or stun on impact.
    Nova is balanced with other ultimates of its cost, so adding a CC to impact will require a cost increase or for another aspect to be removed or for all ultimates of its cost bracket to be buffed to remain balanced.
    Rite of Passage -
    Rite of Passage is the strongest heal in-game. It heals for at least 2k a second, usually enough to very quickly refill allies health to 100% and maintain it for the duration of the ultimate. The morph Practiced Incantation extends the duration by 50%, but some groups can out damage the heal. This makes Remembrance viable, for its 23% damage reduction to those being healed makes it unlikely any group can out damage the HPS this ultimate provides.

    Rite of Passage immobilizes the caster, which is bad in a game where players are encouraged to stay on the move. Luckily the caster is CC-immune and given hyper armor (+12,500 to be precise) to compensate. The visual makes the Templar a bullseye, though. It can be a life-saver for the solo and group Templar, but once cast most enemies will be upon the user.

    While more mobility while casting is welcome, there is no obvious way to counter-balance the mobility without severely nerfing the heal or defensive benefits.



    I draft this recalling my own experience as a Stamina/Hybrid Templar (106 days, 19 hours, 53 minutes or 2,563.883 hours logged on Live and 30 hours, 21 minutes on PTS; Alliance War Rank 24, Centurion Grade 2), my discussions with various Templars (primarily Magicka) both acquaintances and guildmates from Legion of Magnus, Requiem, Gamebreaker Nation and others, and various opinions I have read/heard over the forums and other media. I have glossed over some abilities in writing this, giving them less analysis than they deserve, but I touched on most points Templars are lacking in when it comes to solo PvP.

    Please add your own experiences to it, even if they contradict. I will be refining the sections as I find time in between studying and PTS.

    well, templars were the original class forced to group play to be effective, and now we practically all are. If anything, templars were ahead of the game in that way lol
  • Springt-Über-Zwerge
    Springt-Über-Zwerge
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    Moricu wrote: »
    have you seen @blabafat ? one of the best templar pvp players around
    Jakeol wrote: »
    Templars are hitting pretty hard with a stam build, idk what you guys are stressed about

    You already answered your own question: "with a stam build"
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  • Akinos
    Akinos
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    manny254 wrote: »
    Akinos wrote: »
    manny254 wrote: »
    I agree with the op's post.
    Akinos wrote: »
    Moricu wrote: »
    have you seen @blabafat ? one of the best templar pvp players around

    I talk to blabafat almost everyday about templar stuff. And yes, even he knows and agrees that templars are the weakest of the 4 classes in almost all aspects. Being one of the best, most well known players doesn't mean they don't think their class couldn't use some improvement. Ebonheart Templar has said the same thing also.

    That being said, they, like everybody else that didn't reroll the moment they realized that templars aren't up to par, we're just trying our best to adapt with the few tools that we were given.
    I think the largest issue with the templar class is that people try make it do what it is not for. Everyone wants to play in this 1v1/1vX legend play style or dodge roll around like maniacs. This is just not what templar is good at, and pointless in the actual alliance war. My stamina builds absolutely destroys most players, but it does so because I use it to actually play the objective. Templar is the weakest class to run around ignoring the objective and being useless to your faction, but it is one of the strongest while playing the objective.

    Lastly people have been talking of the damage possible with a min maxed weapon power build on pts, but with the mechanics of jabs the most important things is positioning, and this is something that can not be taught in a build. So while a small amount of people will be able to make these builds work they will not be effective for most players.

    That defeats the purpose of the whole "play how you want because our game is so diverse" advertising thing that ZOS has been preaching since day 1. If 3 of the classes can be good at 1v1 and 1vX why can't templars?
    Dodge roll around like maniacs? You spend a good amount of time doing nothing but. And your stamina build destroying most players has absolutely nothing to do with you playing the objective or not. You don't magically somehow do more damage by rolling around in a zerg near a keep. Although that will change in 1.7 with the new Continuous Attack passive. As of right now on live, that's not the case. The damage you do has to do with your build and your weapon of choice.

    I am getting just a lil bit sick of all these players basically arguing everything, but in the end, their solution and answer to everything is almost always related to being a stamina based class.

    Want to have good survivability and stupid high dps? PLAY A STAMINA BUILD!
    Want to be able dodge roll to the moon and back? PLAY A STAMINA BUILD!
    Want to to be able to hit 20k wrecking blows and biting jabs? PLAY A STAMINA BUILD!
    Wanna be able to kill a shield stacking sorc? PLAY A STAMINA BUILD!


    Who needs religion, a wife, kids or anything else for that matter in their lives when you can just play a stamina build in ESO? You don't need food, water, or air to survive. You just need to be a stamina build in ESO, and that will solve all the problems of the world.

    I am afraid it is not this simple. To start with I play with a whopping total of 1k regen. So while I can dodge roll a little I have to make every single one count. What I am trying to say is terrain. If I walk out into a field with a sorc with no terrain I will get my a** kicked. This is because I am weak without LoS, and sorc is strongest in open combat. Around objectives such as keeps there is a great deal of things to use LoS. Tucking your self into a corner of a keep with jabs is amazing. I really shouldn't have to explain how the terrain of a keep battle is different then a open field fight. Also you should know I don't play in zerg. You don not need a zerg to play the objective.

    What I meant by templar being unable to do 1v1 or 1vX I meant in the manner that other classes do it. Dodge rolling alot is counter intuitive to how jabs works. Obviously we lack bolt escape, shadow cloak, or the ability to tank while dealing decent damage. This means we must depend on our terrain positioning. The best places to finds LoS across the whole map? Keeps. I see plenty of people trying to make builds that essentially try to do what makes the other class strong instead.

    I suggest playing a stamina build before you talk about how perfect they are. As I said before I play with 1k stamina regen in order to stack damage stats. If you think that lends it self to high survivability you are wrong. My ability to stay alive comes from positioning. Also my build is weakest against a shield stacking sorc as shields can not be crit. I also think that magicka needs some major improvements. I used to play magicka, but I like a melee play style and after 1.6 stamina made the most sense as a melee play style.

    LoS is just common sense now, all classes do it, more effectively then either templar build. However, it feels like magicka templars are forced to LoS in order to have the slightest chance at victory, and there's not too many places you can LoS(besides keeps) and still run into a decent amount of people without getting zerged.

    I've played stamina and done quite well with it too, I'm just not a fan of how stamina builds are, and how easy it is to put out high damage crits while dodge rolling quite frequently. I'm not new player or anything like that, been playing MMO's for a long time now, and I've always been one of those outstanding players that others look up to. And in having played MMO's and games in general for a long time, it is fairly easy for me to spot imbalances. Before 1.6, the game was pretty much all magicka based players, there were stamina builds but they were hard to come by. Now, while the balance is slighty better, it's still majority stamina builds. The game shouldn't ever favor one style of gameplay over the other, but with 1.7 coming it seems it will be our most balanced update yet, in terms of magicka vs stamina builds.

    I respect and agree with you on alot of what you said. But nobody should be forced into playing what makes sense in order to be viable. Being pidgeonholed into a certain playstyle with a certain build isn't good. Every class and every build should have a good chance to work, but that is probably asking for too much from ZOS.

    Personally, my ultimate endgame is a hybrid build. I was able to achieve that somewhat towards the end of 1.5, but with the introduction of CP that went out the window. It's still possible now, but not without having ALOT of cp.
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  • Ludof
    Ludof
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    Jakeol wrote: »
    Templars are hitting pretty hard with a stam build, idk what you guys are stressed about

    Survivability of Templar (both Stamina and Magicka) and effectiveness of Magicka Templar when solo playing are the issues; sorry if I am rude, but from your words It is clear that you have never tried both specs or at least you played Stamplar few times.
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  • Suntzu1414
    Suntzu1414
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    excellent post.


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  • Ffastyl
    Ffastyl
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    Ffastyl wrote: »
    Moricu wrote: »
    have you seen @blabafat ? one of the best templar pvp players around
    I have not.

    Soris wrote: »
    Good write up. I agree most of the things. But you lost me on Blazing Shield. Even though it is making wonders in pve tanking, it doesn't work in pvp. It's simply not enough for anything for its cost.

    Around 3500 base cost, with 30k+ health giving 5k shield at most(with CP) that the damage goes unmitigated and can be critted(soon) and hits for 1.2k noncrit on naked targets. This is not even close to your statement "strong enough" And 30k health is not common for dps specs. It is even worse with 20k-25k health.

    Radiant Ward is nothing different minus the cost decrease. Shield strength is just 1% more for each enemy.

    It is EXTREMELY OVERNERFED AND OUTDATED ability. It got hit by 5 direct/indirect nerfs in just 2 patches for the sake of nerfing hardened ward and harness. To those who need a reminder, click spoiler.
    cost increase, general health decrease, battle spirit shield nerf for 1.6 and additional battle spirit nerfs on shield values and damage for 1.7
    And the fun fact is hardened ward is still op while all the efforts to nerf it kick the balls of templars.
    The point I was trying to make with Sun Shield is that while it is nerfed, it is not useless in Update 7. It has become a weak shield, but a weak shield is better than no shield! :s

    I disagree. A weak shield invites having a lot of unmitigated overflow damage. This is in addition to the resources and time you waste casting this defensive and reactive skill that does not threaten or harm your opponent(s).
    Ffastyl wrote: »
    Ludof wrote: »
    As for the other skills, I love the Spear Shards Sinergy idea and the Sun Veil thing.
    Someone from ZOS will read this, hopefully.

    At this point, I've lost all hope. ZOS has had over a year to iron out the Templar class, and it has been dead last for the entire time.

    They put out a discussion thread for Templars when they were trying to fix them, but they simply didn't listen to the advice they got in it. They removed the Templars' only AoE CC, destroyed Restoring Aura and just ignored the calls to remove the CC from biting jabs, fix the GCD on Toppling Charge, etc.

    Now they're double nerfing Blazing Shield.

    With no escape and no AoE CC, Templars will remain at the bottom of the barrel, sadly.

    On the plus side, my Nightblade is awesome.
    What ZOS needs to improve Templars is constructive feedback. Between fixing bugs, creating content, and addressing the community, they probably have very little time to actually play their creation. It is easy to say something is wrong, but it is better to define what is wrong and provide possible solutions for it.

    Zos had gotten very constructive feedback by articulate people numerous time even before launch when it nerfed restoring spirit. It set a well-established pattern in which ZoS promised to somehow fix/compensate Templars and never followed through. Many, many, many times the issues associated with the global cooldown on toppling charge, the undesirable CC on Biting jabs, the mechanical disadvantages of healing ritual, the absolutes uselessness of Radiant aura since 1.6 and yet here we still are.
    The best way to get a feel for Templars in solo play is by dueling. It is 1v1 in a semi-controlled environment. While dueling is not reflective of solo play out in Cyrodiil and the Imperial City, it will highlight some of the strengths and weaknesses this class has in regards to independent fighting.

    I have developed some of my most successful builds via dueling, but they are all geared towards countering one specific build of a class (i.e. Magicka Dragonknights or Stamina Nightblades). When a different build or class attacks me, I have almost no defenses against them. This is where Restoring Aura taking up a slot is so crucial. Freeing that fifth slot can allow for a counter to other builds being put in.

    Yes and no. In a 1v1 controlled environment, a Templar isn't actually that bad of a class. The problem, as you alluded to, is that it is difficult to counter all the different builds out there and the unpredictable challenges that come with cyrodiil / the IC.

    If I am a sorcerer, I can have one single build Vs. every opponent because Hardened Ward reliably protects against everything and bolt escape allows me to disengage against any unfavorable situation. If I am a NB, I don't have to worry about how I am going to use my attack skills against which opponents because Ambush, Surprise attack, and Incapacitating strike work very well against every type of opponent in the game.

    If you try to play a light armor templar, you have no skills that offer you mobility which you need, weak shields that are not enough to offset your squishyness, one defensive skill that is only oriented to magic users that does not function if opponents are CC immune (now further limited to a single cast), and no skills that CC / debuff the enemy. That's a lot of holes to fill and that one slot you get from not using Repentance is not going to cover them all.

    This is compounded by the fact the Templar's best damage skills, Dark Flare Biting Jabs, and Radiant Oppression are channels that leave the light armor templar defenseless. The first two are difficult to fully bring to bear against aware opponents are actively defending themselves.

    All this makes the class very good against PvE mobs yet very cumbersome against reactive and diversified opponents.
    You have touched upon the core issue with Templars and the flaws you point out apply to Stamina builds as well, with Biting Jabs, Uppercut, and Flurry being our main attacks. Sun Fire seems to be our only instant attack, and not a very good one at that.

    I have spent some time on PTS using VR16 templates for Templar, Nightblade, and Dragonknight; Templars are better defensively in the current cycle but still feel lackluster in offense. Other Templars I have fought and fought beside on PTS that deal decent damage do so solely with Biting Jabs/Puncturing Sweep -- I do not see any other offensive abilities. I have tried to mix it up by integrating weapon abilities and Dawn's Wrath, but the consistent channels/cast times give decent combos a high skill requirement (that is also influenced by latency). The combo with the highest damage capability I have tried is Power of the Light > Wrecking Blow > Biting Jabs > Heavy Attack, the middle 2 attacks being the core of the combo.

    What I have noticed that Nightblade and Dragonknight have and Templar not is in-class Minor Maim and area of effect snare/CC. Nightblades have Summon Shade (& morphs) and Mass Hysteria and Dragonknights Choking Talons for Minor Maim; Mass Hysteria and Lotus Fan on Nightblades and Fiery Breath, Dark Talons, and Ash Cloud on Dragonknights for AoE snare/CC. Templars arguably have an AoE snare in Reflective Light. Arguably.

    Adding Minor Maim as an effect to Extended Ritual (...enemies within the circle are inflicted with Minor Maim) will help Templar's defenses. Alternatively Minor Maim could be added to the base ability, Extended instead doing something else such as minor damage over time to enemies within the circle in addition to the healing and synergy.

    Addressing the lack of AoE CC/snare is a more difficult matter. As mentioned in a different thread on Templars, adding a disorient or stun to Restoring Aura could be one solution; doing the same to Rune Focus could be another solution. There are not many severely lacking abilities at this point to add a stun/disorient effect to; an ability or passive overhaul is more likely to get an AoE CC/snare in (Spear Shards inflicting AoE disorient/stun is overpowered).

    tplink3r1 wrote: »
    Radial Sweep is just useless for PVP with its 5 meters range.
    I noticed this too when looking over tooltips once more. The graphical effect gives the impression of 7m or 8m range rather than the short 5m. 5m attacks are hard to land without getting face-to-face with your target, hence they often miss without a mobility difference (i.e. snare, expedition, movement patterns). 7m attacks not only hit farther out but have a wider cone for the valid target area, though this may simply be a false perception as the cone is naturally wider at further ranges.

    Radburn wrote: »
    The info is presented well, very nice and clean.

    I read the Aedric spear section and did not read any further. The majority of your content is fluff, stuff we already know about the class. Some observations are valid, however playing as stamina you missed a couple things.

    Puncturing sweeps - You stated the knock back should be changed to a snare. What about the 50% reduction to damage and the 50% reduction to healing both hitting this ability?

    Sun Ward - This is what really through me off, any magicka based Templar that uses this ability knows it is not worth slotting on PTS. If you slot this skill it will absorb a low amount of damage, and allow the remainder to hit unmitigated. If you decide to bump up your health to strengthen the shield it will come at the cost of damage output. With the 50% reduction to shields this is not advised, you are gimping yourself choosing health. It will cost you a large amount of Magicka to cast. It will cost you one of your 5 slots on your bar. It will cost you 1.5 seconds to cast it, while the person wailing on you will utilize that 1.5 seconds to animation cancel 2-3 hits out damaging your shield by far and eventually killing you.

    Blazing Shield - Again, we are hit by double 50% reductions on the amount absorbed and the damage returned.

    Aurora Javelin - Making the damage increase the closer the target will not benefit me at all. I have used the skill in a build, and my play style was to keep the person at range where I get 40% increased damage and if they are a NB or melee DK they are not hitting me.

    I am sorry to say that while you think you may understand the templar class well, you cannot speak for everyone.
    Some of these issues have been addressed in the latest PTS cycle, namely Blazing Shield covers 29% Max HP rather than 15% previously. However your points remain valid; I have less enjoyment as a magic caster than a sword-swinger so my analysis of the Magicka morphs are largely based on other's opinions/experiences and my own conjecture. I have tried all abilities and morphs, save Restoring Focus, but spent considerably less time with Magicka oriented attacks.

    I included ability descriptions to aid non-Templar players and help with flow in some cases, but I do agree there is more than necessary. I will see about cutting it down or segregating it to sub-spoilers so experienced Templars can skip over it.


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  • Manoekin
    Manoekin
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    Personally I want to see a lot of stuff about Templar redesigned. Aside from a few good ones our passives are mostly weak or weaker versions of other passives in the game. The ultimates are weak, and remembrance only became usable after 2-3 patches of changes. Blazing shield is now completely useless in pvp. I feel like I'm playing without a class and just have random skills added here and there. Like, the class has no identity unless you want to call it a healing class, but that's only 1/3 of what it should be. Even then, a sorc healer should be much more desirable unless you rely completely on BoL to heal because of LoS issues.
  • melloni_aleb16_ESO
    melloni_aleb16_ESO
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    Jakeol wrote: »
    Templars are hitting pretty hard with a stam build, idk what you guys are stressed about

    -.-

    temp stamina used mainly 2h skill for dps( C.charge - W.blow - Executioner ) , all classes have access to these skills -.-
    what is the skill op stam Templar ? .....Repentance? lol

    B.jabs It's like a " channeling " , use it in zerg and use it in small group is very different...

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  • tinythinker
    tinythinker
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    manny254 wrote: »
    What I meant by templar being unable to do 1v1 or 1vX I meant in the manner that other classes do it. Dodge rolling alot is counter intuitive to how jabs works. Obviously we lack bolt escape, shadow cloak, or the ability to tank while dealing decent damage. This means we must depend on our terrain positioning. The best places to finds LoS across the whole map? Keeps. I see plenty of people trying to make builds that essentially try to do what makes the other class strong instead.
    Blinding Flashes used to help a bit to counter lack of mobility, but that is long gone.

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