sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Swarog wrote: »

Where is ZOS comments about zero stamina regen problem? Does they want to silently ignore it?

Its not a problem. Its the best change in the entire patch. Find something better to do than holding down block forever.

find something better to do than talk about something that you have no idea what it is and what it does.
ur a pvp dps that have a l2p problem, u dont found a skill that break block and now u complain sume1 is blocking!!!!

Speaking of PVE, this change only affects tanks. But eventually they will adapt their builds and nothing will actually change. DDs are still able to blockcast without any penalty. It would be more interesting to have reduced damage in block, because it would force every one (dds, tanks, healers) to think more when to block and when not to block.

In my opinion removing stamina regen in block is too uncreative decision, that won't make PVE more interesting or difficult for good groups.

DDuke wrote: »

andy.s wrote: »

Speaking of PVE, this change only affects tanks. But eventually they will adapt their builds and nothing will actually change. DDs are still able to blockcast without any penalty. It would be more interesting to have reduced damage in block, because it would force every one (dds, tanks, healers) to think more when to block and when not to block.

In my opinion removing stamina regen in block is too uncreative decision, that won't make PVE more interesting or difficult for good groups.

Incorrect.

Currently, you don't really blockcast in PvE, unless you're also doing the role of a tank (at which point, this change really affects your play). By blockcasting, you lose significant portion of your DPS (light/heavy attacks).

Now, what you actually do as a damage dealer is block canceling, a different concept. Your typical rotation (if you're a good player) is: LA->cancel with Ability->cancel with block. If you want to add extra burst (e.g. in PvP), you add a bash instead of block at the end (this delays next rotation however).


How does the blocking change affect this? Well, simple.

Every time you block cancel something, your stamina regeneration resets and you have to wait another two seconds for a new stamina tick, which may get delayed if you block cancel the following rotation as well.
Needless to say, this affects your sustain dramatically and probably means block canceling is no longer a good idea.

Thanks for explaining block canceling to me, was really useful

But what I actually mean is magicka DDs can hold block and press aoe abilities on big trash packs and feel safe. Or there were times when you needed to block some bosses mechanics, and DKs had a huge avantage there because their dps in block were higher than other classes without block

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

This change is just as bad as i expected it to be. It puts a severe limit on what tanks can do. 100% loss of stam regen is just way too far. Removing the ability for a tank to fight isnt fun for anyone except the dps players killing them in pvp.

Maybe adding a buff to the taunts in game could fix the pvp problem. Make it so when you block targets you have taunted you gain back stamina.

Or change it to 25%- 50% reduction in stam regen while blocking.

Right now this massive nerf favors DK and NB tanks and pushes templar and sorc tanks way down on the list of desired classes for tanks.

Every other role in the game can stack enough regen to never stop fighting or healing. Why should it be any different for tanks?

Why do tanks get punished for doing what the role is built to do? Healers dont get punished for healing dps dont get punished for doing damage why do tanks get punished for mitigating damage?

This nerf made no sense when it was first announced and it makes absolutely no sense now that its on the test server and we can see how bad it really is. It is not the end of the world for DK or NB tanks. and i have tested both. But my templar tank does suffer badly because of it and my sorc tank already had issues with stamina management to start with havnt no class abilty at all to refill or regen stam. Now with the change to the self healing on sorcs the sorc tank heals are far worse since they no longer trigger off dots.

Tanks are already the least played role by a long shot. Do we really need anything to make them even less popular? They already have no place in pvp since they do no real damage and anyone can out heal the low damage a true tank does. (talking real tanks here not dps in heavy armor with a shield that is a whole different problem!)

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

I think the above quite is true. I felt majorly gimped on the PTS, while using my PVE tanking gear, and playing as a tank. I do not feel gimped or overpowered on live

A. Are tanks really problematic in PVP or do they offer a cool and unique way of playing?
B. Are tanks really not going to be able to bring their PVE gear into PVP now due to it no longer being effective?

Play, such as Sypher's DK, is part of what got me interested in ESO PVP. Please don't invalidate that play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCK_D_nc7Lo

I believe the only way Sypher was able to win that fight was because heal debuffs were stacking. I don't think they stack anymore. I'm not saying he would have lost the fight but he wouldn't have won it without stacked debuffs.

Apparently ZOS during last ESO live claimed that they are getting "positive" feedback about "0 stamina regen while blocking" and they are going to keep it untill 1.7 will go to live server.

Apparently none of ZOS bothered to check PTS forum feedback about this issue, and they have only IC related threads bookmarked.
And while that, apparently PVPers who will benefit from this unjustified nerf, common trolls and people who dont have anything to do with tanking are sending false-positive feedback while in game on PTS with /feedback function to mislead ZOS or give them excuse to keep this change.

(because apparently ZOS thinks that only people who log in to PTS are allowed to have any feedback, and they ignore the fact that anyone who can use their brain and think on their own aka smart person will know that ubernerfing something to 0 is just plain sick).

So due to above circumstances, anyone who cares for PVE tanking and not just his own a** (not the top elite of pver who "ran vdsa 100 times and think game is boring" that can only think about themselfs and are supporting this change to keep monopoly over ALL content in ESO since they will adapt to any crap that ZOS will pull off) should get into PTS and use /feedback function to provide his opinion about "0 stamina regen while blocking"

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

Still the only people that like this change at all are the pvp dps players that want to kill tanks easy. This is a Massive nerf to pve tanking and it is destroying almost all builds for tanking. You now need specific builds and class to tank. Just destroying the whole concept of the play the way you want to game this was set up to be.

It seems it has been balanced for tanks that are DKs with LOTS of champ points. What about templar or sorc tanks? What about new players that are just starting?

And people like that are sending false-positive feedback on PTS just to keep this change and benefit from it. Thats why anyone who really cares for health of game and future of PVE tanking should take a moment to get on PTS and send true /feedback

So is block animation clipping out? Since it resets the stamina regeneration timer? I haven't tested this on PTS yet but if bash is stopping it then I guess this is out as well.

That sounds much better. Tanks need to regen stam... its just absurd that they would even consider making it zero.

On the PTS stamina use on my DK seemed way out of line. Between having to CC break fear on CC immunity cooldown and blocking even just a little bit seemed like all my stamina was gone way too quick.

Wear The new Black Rose set.... with gliffs on block cost reduction.....

@serjomalekrwb17_ESO , Thank you for the suggestion.

The issue with the Black Rose Set is that it doesn't always return as much stamina as the Histbark Set does. That means the set isn't necessarily a trade up for tanking in the future under the stamina regeneration nerf.

You correctly point out that it should be used with block cost reduction jewelry. As a player adds block cost reduction, the Black Rose set eventually becomes better than the Histbark set at stamina preservation.

That being said there are a few things going on.

1. Only players that can put 100 champion points into block cost mitigation, and wear block cost mitigation jewelry enchants, are going to get good returns from Black Rose compared to Histbark.

2. The issue with stacking block cost reduction is that after 50% block cost reduction (by using bracing and fortress), additional block cost reduction is added as though mitigation was soft capped. 100 champion points will claim to give 25%, but only give 12.5%. 3 Jewelry pieces may claim to give about 26% mitigation, but will only give 13. We may have to add Jewlery Enchants and Champion points to make Black Rose really good, but this has inefficiency written all over it.

3. A nerf is a nerf. If we use Black Rose over Histbark, then we lose the 20% damage mitigation from Histbark. We also lose all of our traits on Histbark armor in exchange for impenetrable traits on the Black Rose set. What about the champion points it takes to boost block cost mitigation and optimize Black Rose, but can be used in a different way while using Histbark?

Overall, there is a point where diminished returns of block cost reduction and these other downsides of using Black Rose cause the Black Rose set to be a very mediocre set.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@serjomalekrwb17_ESO , Thank you for the suggestion.

The issue with the Black Rose Set is that it doesn't always return as much stamina as the Histbark Set does. That means the set isn't necessarily a trade up for tanking in the future under the stamina regeneration nerf.

You correctly point out that it should be used with block cost reduction jewelry. As a player adds block cost reduction, the Black Rose set eventually becomes better than the Histbark set at stamina preservation.

That being said there are a few things going on.

1. Only players that can put 100 champion points into block cost mitigation, and wear block cost mitigation jewelry enchants, are going to get good returns from Black Rose compared to Histbark.

2. The issue with stacking block cost reduction is that after 50% block cost reduction (by using bracing and fortress), additional block cost reduction is added as though mitigation was soft capped. 100 champion points will claim to give 25%, but only give 12.5%. 3 Jewelry pieces may claim to give about 26% mitigation, but will only give 13. We may have to add Jewlery Enchants and Champion points to make Black Rose really good, but this has inefficiency written all over it.

3. A nerf is a nerf. If we use Black Rose over Histbark, then we lose the 20% damage mitigation from Histbark. We also lose all of our traits on Histbark armor in exchange for impenetrable traits on the Black Rose set. What about the champion points it takes to boost block cost mitigation and optimize Black Rose, but can be used in a different way while using Histbark?

Overall, there is a point where diminished returns of block cost reduction and these other downsides of using Black Rose cause the Black Rose set to be a very mediocre set.

I agree that the solution is far from perfect ....
One of the guys here in the thread had a good idea, to remove stamina regen on block only in PVP-CLASSIFIED areas.....
while leaving same or atleast 50% in PvE zones with no option for PVP whatsoever.....

Leonis wrote: »

I prefer these solutions :

• no damage done (or a lot reduced) while blocking (like siphoning strikes). If people want to deal damage, they have to stop blocking.
• add to the skill "Defensive posture" : while this ability is slotted : allow stamina regeneration while blocking, weapon and spell damage are reduced by 70% (for exemple).

Clearly you just want to nerf pvp block builds like so many others.

They just need to do a pvp only nerf. After that they can do something much smaller for pve if they feel its needed.

Best solution i have seen that would keep everyone happy would be 50% reduction in stam regen while blocking and make blocking pvp attacks cost twice as much.

I would prefer to have a block cost reduction bonus in a 7 part armor passive that also allows you to have stamina regen based on your health. that way dps builds that just wear heavy armor but dont have stacked health to do proper tanking dont get much of any advantage from it. But true pve tanks that have 26k health or more before the pvp buff to health would get full advantage.

True tanks are not a threat to anyone in pvp but they are getting nerfed hardcore along with the dps builds that are based around block casting.

If a true tank had its damage nerfed while blocking they would be hitting for almost nothing at all. True tank builds can manage what 4k dps on a good day? Is that really a threat to anyone?

The problem with this is true tanks are getting the nerf because of dps builds in pvp that use a shield to block.

after see eso live 23, 1 think dont leave my mind: bring Paul Sage back and put a leash on the kids who manage the playground

Leandor wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

...We also lose all of our traits on Histbark armor in exchange for impenetrable traits on the Black Rose set.

A lot of items from PTS seem to have impenetrable on them. I do sincerely hope they will change that before it goes live.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

From a development perspective we have a couple of interesting things going on.

1. There is an aim for PVE gear to equal PVP gear

Discussing PVP during the early phases of the game in 2013.

“The great thing about the PVP and the PVE gear is you can use it interchangeably. If you are a raider or if you are doing high end PVE content, then you can come right into PVP and you gear is going to be effective. You can be a person in PVP all the time, can earn some PVP gear and go into a high level dungeon. So it’s not like if you do one thing that you are excluded from the other. You can do them both interchangeably and we really think that that is what is going to make people feel together as one alliance as opposed to “oh you’re that type of player or you’re that type of player,” everybody kind of plays together and that’s one of the great things about the items in the game.” Brian Wheeler

Again, there is the same notion about gear conveyed in early 2014.

"There’s no specific stat or anything along those lines. Any of the gear you get, independent of wherever you get it, is perfectly usable in PvP or PvE. The difference will be that some of the armor sets will have different passive abilities in PvE vs. PvP, but there’s nothing that’s really favoring one stat or anything like that, that you have to get for being a “good PvPer.” - Brian Wheeler

One more time, here is this notion about gear in late 2014 when moving on to 1.6.

"We’ve made a lot of changes in Champion so there are some things that would be a nice thing to improve the game, but we didn’t have time and will have to look at it in the future. Having monsters get crits would make Impenetrable more useful; but if monsters did 50% more damage on a crit, big raid bosses could 1-shot a tank so we’d have to adjust the critical value of what a monster could do. Eventually I would like it so everything is valuable in both PvE and PvP.” - Eric Wrobel

2. Feeling Good About Gear While Moving Into the Future

One developer gave an interesting interview going into 1.6 and answered questions about itemization.

"I can tell that the reason we are cautious about rolling out champion and trying not to rush into it is that we want to make sure when we do some more of the more expanded system changes that we do them correctly. We don't want to give you a situation were you put all of this time investment into the game and it feels worthless or just doesn't feel right any more...

I definitely think there has been some discussion internally about traits. We know it can feel sort of weird when you finally get a piece you have been looking for and "it's well fitted!" So I think we do want to keep adding more ways that you can customize your gear. We know people really want to customize traits. The other prong, effect of that, is looking at traits and saying "is this trait appropriate for the game, is this adding anything meaningful to the game, is there something more beneficial" because we always want you to be excited about the items you are getting." - Joe Blackburn

3. Questions That Arise From the Above Philosophies

How can PVE players feel good about the Tel Var bought sets when they come with impenetrable? How did you intend for the impenetrable traits to feel good? How is this itemization drawing together PVE and PVP?

How can any players feel good about the randomly dropped sets such as the new Overwhelming set when the majority of the time a players isn't going to get the piece they want in the proper trait or armor type? How is continuing the practice of randomly rolled armor types and traits something that makes players feel good about their time investment? How is it good practice when you know that people really want the ability to change really bad traits and armor types?

Thank you