Allow stamina regeneration while blocking

Plaid13ub17_ESO

Sigh another important thread gets ignored.

Rinmaethodain

Just keep /feedback on forums, the people who actually care for PVE tanking, not people who will sent false positive feedback because they want to achieve personal gains from this change (PVPers who were sick that someone dared to stay alive in PVP after their 1 button ko macros).

Later this week we should see true face of ZOS. When they release PTS patch notes v2 with new tweaks and changes.

Will they finally listen to true feedback of people who care for PVE tanking and future of game?
Or they will pretend they dont see anything and listen to only feedback they find convenient or PVE tanks will be "ganked" by people spamming on PTS with false feedback and ZOS will keep on stating "we have lot of positive feedback regarding 0 stamina regen so we will keep it".

olemanwinter

OGLezard wrote: »

Ran into a lot of permablockers in pvp, they dont seem to have issues

I'm not shocked.

1) Problem exists in PvP.

2) Change is implemented in BOTH PvP and PvE because Zos refuses to treat them differently.

3) Change is viewed as negative by the majority of PvE players.

4) Change is temporarily viewed as positive by majority of PvP players.

5) Change is discovered to be INEFFECTIVE at fixing the PvP problem.

6) PvP remains broken.

7) PvE is newly broken/more broken.

8)......Wait for 2.5, 3.1, etc?

- This is what happens when you insist on trying to balance PvE and PvP with a single set of rules and abilities. There is no reason why this should be the case. A decade ago I was playing games were an ability would do X damage in PvE and only Y damage in PvP, or stun for 4 seconds in PvE and only stun for 2 seconds in PvP, etc. It can't be that hard. I don't understand their reluctance to balance the game in parts.

olemanwinter

Lionxoft wrote: »

Maybe you don't like it because you can't make a decent build?

Maybe you like it because you never had a decent build from launch till now?

It's easy to say the people who disagree with changes to the game do so because they aren't good at the game. But it's cheap and kind of silly.

sebban

People who like 0 stam while blocking: PvPers
People who hate 0 stam while blocking: PvEers

ZOS, if you have to nerf blocking into the ground, do it for PvP only, leave PvE alone. If you think tanking in PvE is "boring", then you are doing it wrong. Tanks that only taunt and hold block are the worst tanks and don't know how to play. This change will make tanking in PvE much, much WORSE, not better!

ZOS, you constantly nerf PvE due to PvP imbalances. Stop it!

amasuriel

sebban wrote: »

People who like 0 stam while blocking: PvPers
People who hate 0 stam while blocking: PvEers

ZOS, if you have to nerf blocking into the ground, do it for PvP only, leave PvE alone. If you think tanking in PvE is "boring", then you are doing it wrong. Tanks that only taunt and hold block are the worst tanks and don't know how to play. This change will make tanking in PvE much, much WORSE, not better!

ZOS, you constantly nerf PvE due to PvP imbalances. Stop it!

Also I find it obnoxious that the PvPer response is "challenge is good, L2P". I think they are the ones that need to L2P.

As someone who has PvPed as a tank, any competent 2 people can kill me. Yes if you spam wrecking blow like a fool I can stand there forever, but if you time your large strikes with a stun or fear, it's not that hard. 1 vs 1 you cannot kill me unless I make a mistake, but the reverse holds true as well, I can't kill you unless you make a mistake. There is nothing wrong with this.

So maybe when you snidely declare that PvE tanks just suck and need to man up, you should look in the mirror and ask yourself why you need 5 people to kill a tank in PvP...hint, its not because of perma blocking.

Dreddnawt

ZERO REGEN WHILE BLOCKING is the most insanely absurd notion in this entire debacle of idiocy they call an "upgrade."

I cant believe ZOS is expecting players to PAY for this load of crap DLC as they release New PvE content in the midst of the PvP environment (because every PvE player would just love getting ganked 20 times while trying to get to the next dungeon) and substitute adding actual content with ridiculous korean-grind-fest motifs (420 rare drop items and 700k gold to learn the new styles, really?) while ZOS simultaneously swings their giant Nerf-Bat around cracking skulls left and right. WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY THINKING?

Here are some thoughts that maybe wont remove tanks form the game:
~ How about STOP Punishing the 100% of PvE players and 99% of PvP players to address an issue with 1% of PvP players!!!

~ Why not actually fix the problem in PvP, as this solution has NOT done, without screwing every other aspect of the game.

~ How about we DONT annihilate an entire group Role to turn this game into meta-magicka-uber-shielded-dps-robots-speed-running-dungeons-without-tanks because there is NO OTHER WAY!!!

~ How about we allow Tanks to continue to exist in this game AND give them the option to use stamina skills while performing their job because you havent REMOVED THEIR MOST VALUABLE RESOURCE!!!

Swarog

It' important to don't nerf PvP tanks too.
Tanks without defence in PvP is just a training dolls.
It's not funny.

kaorunandrak

TLDR POST

* lazy change for shield casting
* for some current PVE tanking is boring it needs a shake up
* the change effects PVE/PVP STAMINA DPS negatively as well this change coupled with dodge roll change is not good
* THIS CHANGE DOES NOT EFFECT MAGIKA USERS NEGATIVELY IN ANY WAY
* THIS CHANGE DOES NOT STOP MAGIKA BLOCK CASTING OR "LAZY" BLOCKERS
* THIS CHANGE FORCES A PARTICULAR GROUP AND BUILD PLAY STYLE, THIS DOES NOT MESH WITH THE PLAY HOW YOU WANT ESO RALLY CRY
* This change couple with the dodge roll change gives a clear advantage to magika pvpers over stamina pvpers
* stamina changes forces stamina into an almost defensive only role
* this change has further negative connotations for any one suffering from latency issues in pvp or pve because "smart blocking" is impossible for them due to thier location in the world/server lag/or technology they use

Swarog

I've just back from PTS with main character copied from live server.

I've tried to solo normal DSA. I can't pass even to boss on first arena. On live I can complete 3 arenas solo without any problem and I feel I can do more but bored.

I've redistributed my champion points (266): 79 Block Expertise, 10 Thick Skinned, 10 Warlord, 79 Tumbling, 88 Blessed.

I'm dressed in 2 Engine Guardian, 5 Footman, 5 Hist Bark all in gold. Enchants are maxed to Stamina Max and Shield-Play. Spell and Physical resists are at hard cap under Hardened Armor active.

I've used Food instead of Drink.

Green Dragon Blood changed to Coagulating Blood. Immovable Brute and Absorb Magic are slotted. Heroic Slash used to burst ultimate gain.

I've tried to release block as soon as posible in hope to stamina regen. Magica and stamina were low more than half a time.

Summary. It's definitely much harder to tank in 2.1. I'll try to find ways to adapt but I'm disappointed very much for now.

P.S.:
@ZOS look here. It's a REAL feedback from a good tank.

Swarog

All who wants to say that zero stamina regen while blocking is a good and necessary change, confirm that you are successfully complete HM Trials as a tank on PTS before posting your feedback.

Leandor

Swarog wrote: »

All who wants to say that zero stamina regen while blocking is a good and necessary change, confirm that you are successfully complete HM Trials as a tank on PTS before posting your feedback.

"All who oppose this change, please confirm that you successfully tanked HM Trials as a Tank on live before posting your feedback."

Why even post something like that?

Swarog

We are talking about PTS not Live.

Leandor

Consider making your point in a less aggressive way, for example, ask for players having completed the HM trial encounters on PTS at character level V14 (since trials are not yet scaled to V16 afaik) with the new mechanic to provide videos on how they handled it.

This will garner much more useful replies. Mine was more a complaint on the wording than on the contents of your post. As written elsewhere, I do not tank - never pretended to - and can't give a qualified feedback on the validity of tanking these top level encounters. I just read very opposing opinions on it with some saying it's a non issue and others saying it is.

The most interesting part of the discussion is to see how it can be done with the change. That gives us the basis to evaluate whether it is a feasible change or one that will exclude the majority of players from content. Of course it is the top 1% of tanks that immediately manage the change - this is what makes them the top 1%, knowing how to adapt to each and every specific obstacle.

Will the required gameplay be feasible for an average player after he has been made aware of it (tactics sharing, similar to build sharing) or will "us scrubs" never be able to pull it off? For my taste, there is a dangerously wrong inflection to this discussion, and that is change aversion as a motive.

Let me repeat: I am not in a position to contribute from an "interior viewpoint", as I do not tank PvE. I just can contribute from an "exterior viewpoint", meaning that I can see the issue with the old blocking mechanic in the other, unnameable part of the game. To preclude any "bad person trying to nerf PvE for the sake of PvP" comments, I'll quote myself with my first and only direct opinion on this change, made July 3rd shortly after the intended change was made public:

Leandor wrote: »

Food for thought: Make the "stamina regeneration stop while blocking" be a debuff tied to the Cyrodiil battle spirit thing. Voila, separated the PvP issue from PvE.

Apokh

My gosh, so much crying for nothing. Guess most of the LOUDESt cryers didn´t even try out the PTS til now.
I did last week, and it makes a very, very slight difference - it took me exactly 20 Minutes to get used to the change.
Remember- the regen is ZERO WHILE Blocking. So when i release the "block" the STA Pool is full after ~16 Seconds when it was on ZERO before (never happens) because no one blocks his pool to zero.
What most ppl don´t mention (it would destroy their argumentation i guess) - you cannot overtaunt a Mob after the patch. You have all the time you need, to do whatever you want while tanking now. So one pressure is substituted by another..that simple!

I don´t say its getting easier, but its by far not getting so much harder...or quiet impossible.

Suicide would be a solution..

Swarog

I have no aggression but I want that replies were supported by the real facts. If someone willing to say that change is good, it have to ground his opinion on facts and from all points of view. No- tanks likes the change but they aren't think about tanks when talking about it.

I've tried tanking at PTS and it's hard even with special changes. I will investigate the problem deeper and will find a solution but I think it will be ugly anyway because basics are broken.

Apokh

Did you try to change to a REGEN Build instead of maxing out ?
For me this was the illumination in tanking...
Plus...you cannot overtaunt on PTS and have waaay much time to careabout getting shards etc.

Swarog

Regen will not help on Axes because you have no window to drop the block. Plus if you can do it for a secod or two, it will not help because stamia tick will not start.

What is your experience of HM Trials tanking on PTS? Did you copmlete something of it on PTS?
Speaking about normals and generic dungeons are pointless.

kaorunandrak

The issue with a "regen" build is simply how regen works in game. You block it stops your regen and resets the 2 second regen timer. So if your smart blocking and getting hit with heavy attacks every other second, like many have said AXES come to mind, for me as a stamina DPS PVPer, wrecking blow and crystal frag spammers come to mind you can and will lock your self into no stamina regen.

Are there ways to over come this?
* Farm pledges and trials to up your undaunted so you get the resource return passive on synergies.
* Stack tons of stamina so you have a larger window to block before having to restore stamina.
* Focus on reducing block cost to negligible levels via enchants.
* Cap out alchemy for medicinal use and chug stamina potions every 40-45 seconds.
* Farm the ever loving hell out of cp to stack reduce stamina cost and block cost.
* Build for engine guardian and use low cost abilities to spam for max up time.
* Roll a DK and build for earthen heart spam for stamina heal and ultimate generation for resource heal
* Roll a Templar and hope for tons of bodies on the floor for repentance stamina heal
* Have a dedicated Templar magika build with you and eat their shard and have them running repentance.
* Maximize out of block damage mitigation for less time having to block.

Now that's just off the top of my head and primarily this works for PVE, the problem for me is that is not where my concern is focused. My concern is in my end game which is the pvp zone, this is where lots of the suggestions up top go out the window or at the very least and less dramatic become much more difficult and unrealistic to pull off. In pvp your focus is killing and survival, you constantly move in and out of groups attempting to take out high priority targets and back up and safeguard your own using high cost high damage high utility and cc abilities. This is an environment where you have sorc blasting around spamming crystal frags on you and if you don't block or dodge your dead. Nightblades going in and out of stealth spamming ambush and concealed weapon and if you don't block your dead.

This is the environment where I have tested it and this is the environment where I have seen the most issue. Here's a few
* Change effects stamina users the most limiting defensive options and when coupled with the roll dodge change and the normal rampant use of CC in game forces stamina users into to many no way out or damned if you do damned if you don't situations
* Puts unneeded stress on a already super stressed resource stamina is used to block, bash, CC break, roll dodge, sneak, buff, debuff, heal, attack, and sprint.
* Does nothing to stop magika builds from block casting. "Bat bombing" is alive and well folks so is frag spam and molten spam.
* Pushes a hybrid magika/stamina play style for stamina users that the game doesn't support yet unless your running around with 500+ cp
* Pushes "smart blocking" in an environment where every enemy attack requires a smart block and suffers from severe sometimes crippling latency issues.

There are other paths that could have been taken to addressing the issues that led to this "change", as it stands now I see this change as a buff to magika users and nothing more. They need to address the power level difference between stamina and magika they are putting in with this and the roll dodge change. There needs to be some type of stress removal off our stamina bars, perhaps a much greater increased stamina heal from heavy attacking. Access to a cheap damage shield or mitigation tool that costs magika but scales off of stamina, a change to how resources regen going for a 1 second regen versus the current 2. And more stress needs to be applied to magika bars plain and simple, magika users get away with too much already they don't need any more help.

Personofsecrets

Swarog wrote: »

I've just back from PTS with main character copied from live server.

I've tried to solo normal DSA. I can't pass even to boss on first arena. On live I can complete 3 arenas solo without any problem and I feel I can do more but bored.

I've redistributed my champion points (266): 79 Block Expertise, 10 Thick Skinned, 10 Warlord, 79 Tumbling, 88 Blessed.

I'm dressed in 2 Engine Guardian, 5 Footman, 5 Hist Bark all in gold. Enchants are maxed to Stamina Max and Shield-Play. Spell and Physical resists are at hard cap under Hardened Armor active.

I've used Food instead of Drink.

Green Dragon Blood changed to Coagulating Blood. Immovable Brute and Absorb Magic are slotted. Heroic Slash used to burst ultimate gain.

I've tried to release block as soon as posible in hope to stamina regen. Magica and stamina were low more than half a time.

Summary. It's definitely much harder to tank in 2.1. I'll try to find ways to adapt but I'm disappointed very much for now.

P.S.:
@ZOS look here. It's a REAL feedback from a good tank.

You haveta make adjustments to your game play dont ya know???

Using the tankiest build with the most block cost reduction possible isn't enough. You will just haveta adapt.

Maybe you should be soloing with a templar healer. Ever think of that?

I'm joking, but honestly wonder why the onus of adapting was put onto all tanks when it could have been placed on all PVP players, to counter continuous blocking. Again, this same idea applies to any PVE tanks who were not having fun. I want them to have fun and I think they deserve to, but can't they make their own fun rather than supporting something that ruins others?

Leandor

Doesn't anyone else find it kind of strange that not being able to solo the second most difficult group content is used as an argument against this change?

Personofsecrets

Leandor wrote: »

Doesn't anyone else find it kind of strange that not being able to solo the second most difficult group content is used as an argument against this change?

Don't you find it odd that some people, who are hardly affected by others enjoyed way of playing, are all for destroying that way of playing?

Isn't it impressive that players can beat such difficult content by themselves given enough time? That isn't something that I would want to ruin for others.