Ridicolous amount of materials needed for VR15 and VR16 sets?

Faulgor · July 2015

likewow777 wrote: »

I'd feel more satisfied crafting glass v15 armor, since people could simply look at me and know how much time and effort went into making my armor and weapons.

Paying 5000 crowns in the store does not require much time or effort

Epona222 · July 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

likewow777 wrote: »

I'd feel more satisfied crafting glass v15 armor, since people could simply look at me and know how much time and effort went into making my armor and weapons.

Paying 5000 crowns in the store does not require much time or effort

I would say that depends upon your income and what sort of job you do.

Docwho82 · July 2015

Epona222 wrote: »

I do hope they reconsider the number of mats required for V16 crafted gear - they have always stated that they want to keep crafting viable, but how viable is that? I don't begrudge the people who are good at PvP getting their rewards, nor do I begrudge the people who are good at PvE dungeons getting their helm/shoulder sets, but crafting needs to remain viable and valuable.

I'm not asking to be able to craft the same gear as drops, just stuff of equal utility (but different), and the mats need to be farmable by ordinary players rather than having to buy them from the top tier of PvP players, who are already in a position to be able to collect and sell some of the best gear in the game.

I couldn't agree more.

Robbmrp · July 2015

IMO the biggest issue with this is it makes high end(V16) crafting obsolete. Since it will take so many materials for one item, people will just go with the dropped sets they get in V16 already and will be available immediately for a cost. You could possibly obtain a 5 item dropped set in a week and you won't have even been able to make 2 crafted items by then.

It won't be worth it to craft these high end items as the best items in the game will be drops anyway. This just pushes them further away from "Crafters will be able to make the best gear in the game". With more and more changes like this that come to the game, adding 23 new sets with only 3 craftable and ungodly material requirements for V16, it seems like they don't want people to actually make things, only improve them.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

IMO the biggest issue with this is it makes high end(V16) crafting obsolete. Since it will take so many materials for one item, people will just go with the dropped sets they get in V16 already and will be more readily available. You could possibly obtain a 5 item dropped set in a week and you won't have even been able to make 2 items by then.

It won't be worth it to craft these high end items as the best items in the game will be drops anyway. This just pushes them further away from "Crafters will be able to make the best gear in the game". With more and more changes like this that come to the game, adding 23 new sets with only 3 craftable and ungodly material requirements for V16, it seems like they don't want people to actually make things, only improve them.

Crafters still make a large number of sets that can't be obtained as drops, and there's only very rarely a case where you can point to a set and say "that one is the best, no doubt about it!" to broadly claim that "people will just go with dropped sets" for the small stat difference on the item level alone which is essentially a pride factor more than anything. The VR15 items take just one tenth of what a VR16 one does to craft, and once more, the stat difference is so insignificant it can't really be taken into consideration as to whether to use a dropped item versus a crafted set. If you didn't catch it earlier in the thread, here it is again showing a VR15 epic crafted item versus the same one as VR16.

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Robbmrp · July 2015

This could be very well the "End of the World.....of Crafting"...... lol

The Uninvited · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

The VR15 items take just one tenth of what a VR16 one does to craft, and once more, the stat difference is so insignificant it can't really be taken into consideration as to whether to use a dropped item versus a crafted set. If you didn't catch it earlier in the thread, here it is again showing a VR15 epic crafted item versus the same one as VR16. .

For that very small difference versus high amount of materials needed, I will just craft myself a V15 set and be done with it.

trippingchrissy · August 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Crafters still make a large number of sets that can't be obtained as drops, and there's only very rarely a case where you can point to a set and say "that one is the best, no doubt about it!" to broadly claim that "people will just go with dropped sets" for the small stat difference on the item level alone which is essentially a pride factor more than anything. The VR15 items take just one tenth of what a VR16 one does to craft, and once more, the stat difference is so insignificant it can't really be taken into consideration as to whether to use a dropped item versus a crafted set. If you didn't catch it earlier in the thread, here it is again showing a VR15 epic crafted item versus the same one as VR16. .

Coming at this from a behavioral perspective, I think that the problem so many are having with this is not the fact that there's a big jump in requirements for V16 gear, but just how big that jump is. Since the beginning of the game, as people have leveled up crafting, requirements have gone up at a predictable rate. Players got used to this schedule of required effort, and built a long history of reinforcement under that system. So now that a 10-fold increase is required, it's hitting a lot of folks in the face, and they feel like the rug has been pulled out from under them. Suddenly, the effort they have been putting in is no longer enough, and they're required to do more. So it follows that they get angry (or in behavioral terms, have an extinction burst).

Now, certainly people would have had an issue with this requirement increase even if the mats were easy as pie to farm, like all the other mats in the world. But when they have all points in extraction, and are only SOMETIMES getting ONE mat from a decon, when V15 mobs in aren't dropping V15 hides, then it's a whole second, separate effort requirement that has changed - which means that you can take that anger over the first requirement change and increase it.

So once everything settles in, sure, people will get used to it, and everything will be fine. I, for one, have not seen any convincing reason to spend 10k stones on a purple piece of V15 equipment when I could just but a 1k V15 blue and upgrade it myself. I also think that a 10-fold increase is too much, but less because of the material/effort requirement, and more because it shows ZOS has a fundamental misunderstanding of schedules of reinforcement, which is not a great thing for MMO devs to demonstrate.

I_killed_Vivec · August 2015

If you want to get to craft to VR16 you will either have to buy the DLC or subscribe for a long time - that's the only reason for the 10X increase in mats.

Put simply, they don't want people renting the DLC for a month, getting all the mats they need and crafting all the gear they want then going back to unsubscribing.

Cynical, but what did you expect?

Recremen · August 2015

Do we have official word from ZOS that these are the figures that will make it to live? I feel like it's just a clever way to get us to better test the V15 gear on PTS, kind of like how template characters came with unleveled skills for the 1.6 PTS so that we'd be forced to test every rank.

Rinmaethodain · August 2015

Recremen wrote: »

Do we have official word from ZOS that these are the figures that will make it to live? I feel like it's just a clever way to get us to better test the V15 gear on PTS, kind of like how template characters came with unleveled skills for the 1.6 PTS so that we'd be forced to test every rank.

Nope, still noone including @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom explained if the 150 materials is really the amount that they intend it to cost on live server, or its just for PTS/typo bug.

timidobserver · August 2015

I am okay with this change. It will actually make crafting worth the effort. Right now, I am maxed in most of the my crafting, but it isn't even worth the effort to try to sell my services. This might actually make it worth it to sell my services as a crafter.

Asia_Skyly · August 2015

Does anyone know if the crafting writs are providing V15-V16 Materials? That could alleviate some of the pain.
I have only done one day worth of writs in the PTS, and everything I got was V14 (old type of stuff).

Recremen · August 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

I am okay with this change. It will actually make crafting worth the effort. Right now, I am maxed in most of the my crafting, but it isn't even worth the effort to try to sell my services. This might actually make it worth it to sell my services as a crafter.

I think this would be a terrible direction to go. I get orders all the time by people looking to experiment with gear of all kinds of sets and with all kinds of traits. This will make experimentation nearly impossible, likely decrease build diversity as a result, and will make recouping costs so much more difficult if you mess up the order due to, for instance, a UI bug. I much prefer things as they are now, where crafting is frequent, edgy, and driven by curiosity.

Asia_Skyly · August 2015

Recremen wrote: »

I much prefer things as they are now, where crafting is frequent, edgy, and driven by curiosity.

I agree. I am not sure why people equate grind with progression. It is not the same thing. In addition to your point, this new direction is making me question if my year worth of time to the crafting system is even worth it. Right now, I am having second thoughts. You might be better off buying items rather than crafting them.

Paulhewhewria · August 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Do we have official word from ZOS that these are the figures that will make it to live? I feel like it's just a clever way to get us to better test the V15 gear on PTS, kind of like how template characters came with unleveled skills for the 1.6 PTS so that we'd be forced to test every rank.

Nope, still noone including @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom explained if the 150 materials is really the amount that they intend it to cost on live server, or its just for PTS/typo bug.

Not trying to put words in ZOS's mouth,but I think the reason they haven't said if this is a typo is because their testing to see how the player base reacts to it.

timidobserver · August 2015

Recremen wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I am okay with this change. It will actually make crafting worth the effort. Right now, I am maxed in most of the my crafting, but it isn't even worth the effort to try to sell my services. This might actually make it worth it to sell my services as a crafter.

I think this would be a terrible direction to go. I get orders all the time by people looking to experiment with gear of all kinds of sets and with all kinds of traits. This will make experimentation nearly impossible, likely decrease build diversity as a result, and will make recouping costs so much more difficult if you mess up the order due to, for instance, a UI bug. I much prefer things as they are now, where crafting is frequent, edgy, and driven by curiosity.

You get orders yes, but it isn't worth the effort of running around to craft stuff. You make significantly more just farming mats than crafting stuff for people. I don't even tell people that I have most of my crafting maxed other than a few less used weapons because I don't want orders because it isn't worth my time to craft for people given that most people tip 1-3k. I only craft for friends. If they add some really high-end, extremely difficult to craft stuff, it would actually be worth my time to bother trying to sell my services as a crafter.

Docmandu · August 2015

It's called "content" change excell spreadsheet number to x100 and bang the content label on it. Rinse and repeat every quarter for new DLCs!

Docmandu · August 2015

Nestor wrote: »

This can't be intended. IF it was, VR15 gear would need close to the same amount of mats. VR15 gear uses about the same as VR9 gear so this is something I bet they fix.

However, given the rates at which people can get the mats in the first place, they have a few days to fix this.

Eric Wrobel probably entered those numbers the same day he adjusted Flying Blade.... must have been some party!

Tannus15 · August 2015

Do the top end crafting writs require VR15+ materials?

Rinmaethodain · August 2015

Tannus15 wrote: »

Do the top end crafting writs require VR15+ materials?

No, they dont. They still need voidstone/nightwood/shadowhide/viodcloth and are turned in in belkarth even if you max out passives to 10 (for vr15/vr16)

Leandor · August 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Do the top end crafting writs require VR15+ materials?

No, they dont. They still need voidstone/nightwood/shadowhide/viodcloth and are turned in in belkarth even if you max out passives to 10 (for vr15/vr16)

Do they net V15+ items or still V14?

Kronosphere · August 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

There is no logic or sense whatsoever in suddenly making item one lvl higher cost 10 times more resources.

What is wrong with VR16 sword? Is it make of black hole of infinite density?
You put in 10 times more materials and get a sword of the same volume just like VR14 version?

ok so here is how it is. they decided to make a heap of sets that were most likely going to be drops, into crafting ones. thats why there are so many new crafted sets. now so u cant just get all the gear u want in 2 seconds this is the trade off for not having to grind them/ pray for good rng.

Rinmaethodain · August 2015

Kronosphere wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

There is no logic or sense whatsoever in suddenly making item one lvl higher cost 10 times more resources.

What is wrong with VR16 sword? Is it make of black hole of infinite density?
You put in 10 times more materials and get a sword of the same volume just like VR14 version?

here we go again with eso number 1 whinger! ok so here is how it is. they decided to make a heap of sets that were most likely going to be drops, into crafting ones. thats why there are so many new crafted sets. now so u cant just get all the gear u want in 2 seconds this is the trade off for not having to grind them/ pray for good rng.

that is the logic behind it. something i know you are incapable of. now i dont even wanna read your stupid ass reply that will justify your dumb views so dont even bother this is the reason and yes it makes sense goodbye.

"not having to grind them/ pray for good rng."

Sorry, but being able to loot VR15-VR16 gear ONLY from Bosses and Minibosses in old dungeons, for a chance of 1 to 6 pieces of VR15/VR16 gear, where upon deconstructing there is only a chance to get 1 single piece of crafting material, IS EXACTLY "grinding for them and praying for good rng".

While current system (and partially what is on PTS) where for dungeons scaled up to VR14, the gear will have chance to drop from ANY monster killed in dungeon is giving players fair chance to obtain VR15/VR16 scrap decon gear without having to grind them and praying for good rng.

To bad that zos with the change that "VR15/VR16 gear will drop in all old dungeons ONLY FROM MINIBOSSES and BOSSES (not any monster - which is the way how it works currently) decide to put even more things into grind and prayers for rng.

I also would like to mention again, that old dungeon sets, like ebon set, worm cult set etc. also including DSA/VDSA gear, sets like Stygian and Thorn, Relics of the Physician, Ansur etc. and also trials gear - all this equipment sets are not going to be scaled to VR15/VR16. Trials and VDSA will stay at the same lvl they are now, and old dungeon sets will remain VR12. This is per the "Itemization for the Imperial City DLC & Base-Game Patch Bookmark" DEV topic.

Kronosphere · August 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Kronosphere wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

There is no logic or sense whatsoever in suddenly making item one lvl higher cost 10 times more resources.

What is wrong with VR16 sword? Is it make of black hole of infinite density?
You put in 10 times more materials and get a sword of the same volume just like VR14 version?

here we go again with eso number 1 whinger! ok so here is how it is. they decided to make a heap of sets that were most likely going to be drops, into crafting ones. thats why there are so many new crafted sets. now so u cant just get all the gear u want in 2 seconds this is the trade off for not having to grind them/ pray for good rng.

that is the logic behind it. something i know you are incapable of. now i dont even wanna read your stupid ass reply that will justify your dumb views so dont even bother this is the reason and yes it makes sense goodbye.

"not having to grind them/ pray for good rng."

Sorry, but being able to loot VR15-VR16 gear ONLY from Bosses and Minibosses in old dungeons, for a chance of 1 to 6 pieces of VR15/VR16 gear, where upon deconstructing there is only a chance to get 1 single piece of crafting material, IS EXACTLY "grinding for them and praying for good rng".

While current system (and partially what is on PTS) where for dungeons scaled up to VR14, the gear will have chance to drop from ANY monster killed in dungeon is giving players fair chance to obtain VR15/VR16 scrap decon gear without having to grind them and praying for good rng.

To bad that zos with the change that "VR15/VR16 gear will drop in all old dungeons ONLY FROM MINIBOSSES and BOSSES (not any monster - which is the way how it works currently) decide to put even more things into grind and prayers for rng.

yeah that is a bit grindy but i mean you can make anything grindy if you choose to do it the least efficient way. if i kill only the lowest exp giving creature its gonna take ages to level compared to normal. that is what getting it your suggested way is like doing. you should be getting it from tel var stones from either normal IC stuff with pvp and pve or just the daily pve dungeon coffers etc.

atleast people who refuse to purchase the dlc still have a chance at all and can still purchase it from others with gold. so be thankful for that.

Rinmaethodain · August 2015

Leandor wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Do the top end crafting writs require VR15+ materials?

No, they dont. They still need voidstone/nightwood/shadowhide/viodcloth and are turned in in belkarth even if you max out passives to 10 (for vr15/vr16)

Do they net V15+ items or still V14?

I just finished 3 writs on PTS with maxed out blacksmithing, woodworking and clothing.

In both 3 cases the gear i got was VR9 ornate item.

helediron · August 2015

Crafter's view: This DLC is more about acquiring slightly better gear than advancement of crafting. The amount of vr16 mats isn't really making crafting harder for top crafters. Now players have to supply their own mats, just like nirn or dwemer frames. This is no progression of crafting, just a time sink.

New style is a cosmetic progression. Of course i'll grind them all to stay at the top. I visited two crafting tables. They needed five and seven traits. No progression there. Malachite frags and new water drop occasionally. Again just scarce supply.

Summary: Except new styles this isn't a crafting upgrade i was looking for. It never was advertised such, and that's fine. It's just vet rank increase, new mats, scarce mat supply and mat supply is embedded into PvP. This is about how much grind each want to put for their gear.

Leandor · August 2015

So let me summarize what I understood so far from this thread. There is a base patch part for this update and according to the patch notes provided in the PTS forum, this base patch contains "new crafting levels and new materials for crafting said new levels". Only for enchanting and alchemy, you will have to get parts from IC exclusively.

With the last part, you make the crafting upgrades for Alchemy and Enchanting part of the DLC, not base patch. Please adjust accordingly, because what you have written in the notes now is misleading.

Now let's look at the other crafts, especially the equipment manufacture crafts (smith, tailor, carpenter). Here, it was purported that materials required for the new levels of crafts would be accessible outside of IC, thus making them available for those that do not want to purchase the DLC.

At some point, the development decided that there is a new "chore" to be involved in crafting and thus made the V16 crafts require a 10 times increase in base materials. Some players defend that by saying this would add to the complexity of crafting, but most do realize that the only thing this is, is grinding.

Even if we purchase the DLC, our only source for these materials is deconstructing. If I understood correctly, even the crafting writs will not provide (and not consume, admittedly) the new materials. So, in order to craft a full set of V16 material (8 or 9 pieces respectively), one needs something in the ballpark of 1500 raw materials.

Since it is only a chance to acquire ingots/cloth/wood upon desconstructing and the amount is quite small (ranges from 1 to 3, afaik), let's assume that this means you need 4500 item drops (assuming even distribution between wood. cloth and ingot) until you have the stuff together for a single set.

The overwhelming majority of players will have 2 or even 3 sets of equipment to use for specific roles. This may rise to something between 6 and 10 sets, if you gear for top leadership board positions and specific-encounter-optimized gear, I presume. Let's go for the low estimate, since you will also mix&match drop sets and bought sets - 2 sets. We are now at a whooping 9000 item drops.

Yes, you can bolster that with TV stones, but seriously, these will be used for other stuff in the beginning. especially considering that mix/match sets cost 10k TV a piece.

What you have created, @ZOS_JasonLeavey / @ZOS_GinaBruno et al., is a grindfest. This is not crafting complexity - this is blatantly currying favor of those that play any day, all day and have fun with grinding. I finished of my sorc, going from V3 to V14 in a week, mainly by grinding. I tell you, I will never do something like that again. The mindnumbingly boring circle je... running has caused me a migraine, a sore left hand (and not from... pleasuring) and a loss of at least 23 IQ points.

Now you tell me that even if I buy this DLC, you require me to do that again, and in a PvP zone? Not once, but three or four times (depends on whether my templar will be leveled up or if I let him die a horrible death from exactly this issue).

Please reconsider this.

Now there is a second point. Also for this part, you effectively preclude any and all that are not going to buy into IC from said upgrades. Why? Because you will limit the V15/16 drops to bosses in group dungeons scaled to V15/16. Even if you manage to get 5 items on each boss, taking an average of 5 bosses each dungeon, you will have to make a whooping 360 dungeon runs to equip a single char with crafted V16 gear.

You simply have got to be kidding me.

I do realize that I should have used a less aggressive tone in this post, but please, please, please, do not reduce the only available counter to RNG (to be clear: I am talking of crafting) into a mindless grindfest for materials. Do not try to force people into buying the DLC by restricting all item progression to it. The new TV sets alone are incentive enough. Make it so that you can achieve the crafting materials easily or make it so that you don't need a lot of them to equip your chars.

Anhedonie · August 2015

Guess I'll stick to my v14 gear.

DDuke · August 2015

Leandor wrote: »

-snip-

Two options:

1. You make crafting require atleast close to the same amount of effort as getting good dropped sets, which has been done (somewhat) with this change to materials.
2. You make crafting sets worse than dropped sets, because dropped sets require more effort to get.

Pick your poison.

I for one am happy crafting is no longer a "reach level cap, instantly craft best gear" process (nothing to do with "complexity" btw as mentioned in your post). More effort=better gear, less effort=worse gear. Simple.