PvE Tanking Future. - DO NOT GET RID OF STAM REGEN WHILE BLOCKING IN PVE

nimander99 · July 2015

I think this will be a mistake, but I'm happy to try it out and be proved wrong.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I have made eight posts in this thread up until this one recently, which is #9. Here are all of the conversation snippets we’ve engaged in, linked and quoted verbatim with minimal information provided for context, as anyone catching up will have a hard time otherwise untangling it (Note: For readability, some line spacing was changed to combine multiple-line segments into one line break, but the text itself is unchanged and uncut) :

I'm going to post about a couple of recurring themes one more time so that they are clear

As you see, a tank generates ultimate just by blocking. There is currently no need to weave light or heavy attacks between blocks for the purpose of ultimate generation. Saying so, under the idea that tanks already have to let their block down to generate ultimate, and that therefore the stamina regeneration nerf is less bad, is wrong. Someone who says otherwise, regardless of their experiences tanking, and regardless of what others have told them, shows that they aren't super knowledgeable about what tanks have and don't have to do and therefore doesn't necessarily have the insight it takes to evaluate how the stamina regeneration nerf will effect tanking.

That's a good paraphrasing of what I had already stated multiple times, basically. @Personofsecrets, the post you made still has yet to state anything different from what I already had covered, however... even the random YouTube link does not counter it, which was that if you are looking to maintain maximum and full potential ultimate generation, you will not be doing so always without weaving a hit in. Unless you're sitting there and eating every possible hit with block, , which means you are taking excess damage from not sidestepping avoidable hits like cleaves and instead sitting like a duck to eat them from the bosses. Which means you are not tanking optimally at this time in any case... and circles right back to the lack of need to in the current game versions to date of ESO because it is too easy on the whole.

AOE is going to be the least-affected compared to now by the change in terms of resource management as your resource regeneration ticks do not scale based on the number of attackers right now anyways. More attackers means more flat stamina cost each time you block one of their hits, making the base regeneration a much smaller factor than any other situation when tanking. A boss hit will take off the same amount regardless of which attack is blocked instead of avoided... just as trash mobs do.

In ESO, stamina cost per block doesn't scale based on how much damage is mitigated: it is the exact same static amount of 2,160 per hit mitigated, minus block cost reductions such as the champion system's (8.1% is a paltry 20 point investment), sword and shield's (30% passive), five-piece heavy armor (20% passive), and cost reduction glyphs for jewelry (200-point cost in stamina per block flat). If resource management is an issue just as I mentioned you can drop some of the weapon power glyphs or spell power ones on the rings/neck to bridge the gap more than handily there. When you're blocking hits from five attackers that hit every 2 seconds, for an average of 2.5 hits per second, the current meta of using weapon/spell power jewelry glyphs will leave you with (excluding champion system) a 1080 cost per hit blocked... depending on your champion rank, that will be lower. Adding two of those glyphs instead of just slapping in the damage ones like the current normal is, would result in a net gain of ~400 stamina less spent per hit at a rate of two and a half hits per second equals 1,000 stamina cost not spent every second. Coincidentally, that's equivalent to a full 2000 stamina regeneration rating as that ticks every two seconds (and thus is effectively 1,000 per second). Funny how math works out, eh?

Do you see now why I keep remarking that all it really will pan out to is a little more difficulty if you stay maximizing out your DPS for vDSA runs as a tank, in the end? Single-target tanking isn't an issue on stamina in the first place as anyone who has ever tanked immediately notices. @zomnomnombie basically hit upon the same main facts, but had a different perspective of what most tanks usually do right now on live. That will vary on who you talk to, but the overall consensus lines up that you have not needed to come anywhere near making much use of tanking skills to date in PVE, regardless of how you slice the minutiae of what percentage hold block for convenience.

@Dduke nailed it, though, and the point I've made this entire time: It will be on PTS soon enough and it is silly to complain that it should not ever even reach the test server because some feel it might make it "too hard" to time their tanking. Add in that the already-binary taunt system won't even allow for overtaunting in the Imperial City patch, and it's even simpler. I don't know if you missed it, but the API for addons is being opened back up for buff information and combat sources finally as of the Imperial City patch as part of the preparation for adding official options/toggles for them and SCT. That means you won't need to even be timing it, but simply watch a buff icon if you are concerned as to difficulty in telling on a single timer such as the ultimate generation one (Heroism).

EDIT: Also, regardless of the disagreement, I don't want to left it unsaid that I was heartened to see your post talking about the gameplay after everything else. I am, as I'm sure is pretty immediately clear when reading any post by me longer than a sentence, a very by-the-numbers guy. That may not come off well to everyone, but it is how I write, as well.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I have made eight posts in this thread up until this one recently, which is #9. Here are all of the conversation snippets we’ve engaged in, linked and quoted verbatim with minimal information provided for context, as anyone catching up will have a hard time otherwise untangling it (Note: For readability, some line spacing was changed to combine multiple-line segments into one line break, but the text itself is unchanged and uncut) :

I'm going to post about a couple of recurring themes one more time so that they are clear

As you see, a tank generates ultimate just by blocking. There is currently no need to weave light or heavy attacks between blocks for the purpose of ultimate generation. Saying so, under the idea that tanks already have to let their block down to generate ultimate, and that therefore the stamina regeneration nerf is less bad, is wrong. Someone who says otherwise, regardless of their experiences tanking, and regardless of what others have told them, shows that they aren't super knowledgeable about what tanks have and don't have to do and therefore doesn't necessarily have the insight it takes to evaluate how the stamina regeneration nerf will effect tanking.

That's a good paraphrasing of what I had already stated multiple times, so thanks I guess for that? @Personofsecrets, the post you made still has yet to state anything different from what I already had covered, however... even the random YouTube link does not counter it, which was that if you are looking to maintain maximum and full potential ultimate generation, you will not be doing so always without weaving a hit in. Unless you're sitting there and eating every possible hit with block, , which means you are taking excess damage from not sidestepping avoidable hits like cleaves and instead sitting like a duck to eat them from the bosses. Which means you are not tanking optimally at this time in any case... and circles right back to the lack of need to in the current game versions to date of ESO because it is too easy on the whole.

@Dduke nailed it, though, and the point I've made this entire time: It will be on PTS soon enough and it is silly to complain that it should not ever even reach the test server because some feel it might make it "too hard" to time their tanking. Add in that the already-binary taunt system won't even allow for overtaunting in the Imperial City patch, and it's even simpler. I don't know if you missed it, but the API for addons is being opened back up for buff information and combat sources finally as of the Imperial City patch as part of the preparation for adding official options/toggles for them and SCT. That means you won't need to even be timing it, but simply watch a buff icon if you are concerned as to difficulty in telling on a single timer such as the ultimate generation one (Heroism).

Denying reality about the many comments you have made, which are in the video for everyone to quickly see, isn't going to help you prove any points about tanking or the stamine regeneration change. You have gone on and on as if weaving attacks between blocks is some great boon for a tanks ultimate generation. As the video shows, it's not.

Yes, the time of generating ultimate with attacks was a smaller number, but saying that the videos shown difference of 2 seconds somehow displays the maximum potential of ultimate gain to be greater when weaving attacks than it is when just blocking is intellectually dishonest. The time difference is negligible. You are wrong.

Halfwitte · July 2015

nimander99 wrote: »

I think this will be a mistake, but I'm happy to try it out and be proved wrong.

An ERROR has occurred and ESO has shut down unexpectedly would you please describe in detail what was happening when the ERROR occurred.

Dying while Tanking just one mob!!

Working as Intended.

Nerf magicka regen while healing
Nerf Perma healers
Save us with your make everything better patch notes!

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Yes, the time of generating ultimate with attacks was a smaller number, but saying that the videos shown difference of 2 seconds somehow displays the maximum potential of ultimate gain to be greater when weaving attacks than it is when not blocking is intellectually dishonest. The time difference is negligible. You are wrong.

Righty-o then. Circular arguments about single facets of the mechanics really don't go anywhere, nor do personal insults such as accusing people of lying simply because you disagree with them. See you on PTS tomorrow

!

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

@Personofsecrets, Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yacj4kIQRhM

Smiteye · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

@Personofsecrets, Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

@Attorneyatlawl shouldn't be wasting his time on u, since u keep backpedaling. First u said nothing but block needed then u say weaving light increases gen after flaming the hell out of him for it. He mentions it and extends a nice olive branch and you carry on.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

@Personofsecrets, Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

Exactly what I said: you do not hit your peak ultimate gain by simply holding block. Just a short two posts ago you finally agreed on that fact, and now are right back to changing your point once again.

"Yes, the time of generating ultimate with attacks was a smaller number."

And with that, I am off to go make sure my PTS is fully up to date. Have a good night.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Smiteye wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

@Personofsecrets, Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

Classic clueless ness man. @Attorneyatlawl shouldn't be wasting his time on u, since u keep backpedaling. First u said nothing but block needed then u say weaving light increases gen after flaming the hell out of him for it. He mentions it and extends a nice olive branch and you carry on being a jerk. Truly boggling.

Never have I said that.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Smiteye wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

@Personofsecrets, Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

Classic clueless ness man. @Attorneyatlawl shouldn't be wasting his time on u, since u keep backpedaling. First u said nothing but block needed then u say weaving light increases gen after flaming the hell out of him for it. He mentions it and extends a nice olive branch and you carry on being a jerk. Truly boggling.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Smiteye wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

@Personofsecrets, Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

Classic clueless ness man. @Attorneyatlawl shouldn't be wasting his time on u, since u keep backpedaling. First u said nothing but block needed then u say weaving light increases gen after flaming the hell out of him for it. He mentions it and extends a nice olive branch and you carry on being a jerk. Truly boggling.

Never have I said that.

I'll take your advice @Smiteye. This really says all you need to know:

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Hey Grim, thanks for stopping by.

Did you know that the best tanks in the game aren't holding block and never have?

Did you know that people who have little experience tanking and think that tanks need to use light attacks to generate their ultimate are all for this change? Their commentary really speaks for itself.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

@Personofsecrets, Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

Exactly what I said: you do not hit your peak ultimate gain by simply holding block. Just a short two posts ago you finally agreed on that fact, and now are right back to changing your point once again.

"Yes, the time of generating ultimate with attacks was a smaller number."

And with that, I am off to go make sure my PTS is fully up to date. Have a good night.

Yes, you do hit your peak ultimate gain by just blocking. The difference in the tests was 2 seconds. Bare in mind that was 2 seconds over a minute. Again, if you think that is because weaving attacks gives players a 2 second bonus to their ultimate generation, and you don't think that is because of variance, then you are being intellectually dishonest.

You can't possibly believe that weaving attacks between blocks makes ultimate generation 2 seconds or 3% better every time and that somehow shows that full ultimate gaining potential is reached with one method, but not the other.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Smiteye wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

@Personofsecrets, Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

Classic clueless ness man. @Attorneyatlawl shouldn't be wasting his time on u, since u keep backpedaling. First u said nothing but block needed then u say weaving light increases gen after flaming the hell out of him for it. He mentions it and extends a nice olive branch and you carry on being a jerk. Truly boggling.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Smiteye wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

@Personofsecrets, Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

Classic clueless ness man. @Attorneyatlawl shouldn't be wasting his time on u, since u keep backpedaling. First u said nothing but block needed then u say weaving light increases gen after flaming the hell out of him for it. He mentions it and extends a nice olive branch and you carry on being a jerk. Truly boggling.

Never have I said that.

I'll take your advice @Smiteye. This really says all you need to know:

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Hey Grim, thanks for stopping by.

Did you know that the best tanks in the game aren't holding block and never have?

Did you know that people who have little experience tanking and think that tanks need to use light attacks to generate their ultimate are all for this change? Their commentary really speaks for itself.

What is your point?

Asking @grimsfield if they knew how players, who are inexperienced with tanking, feel about a tanks ultimate regeneration is not equal to endorsing the idea that weaving attacks between blocks increases a tanks maximum ultimate generation potential.

Daveheart · July 2015

On topic: For those of you who know/play with/are/talk to the "best tanks in the game", what makes you think the devs care if you can or can't successfully complete these trials with this change? When has the game been balanced around the best players in the game? Am I crazy for thinking that this change will only stick if the average to below average tank is capable of completing the content with it (whether it goes live or not)? There are still groups out there who completely wipe on vet DSA, using up all 100 lives. There are also groups that rejoice if they manage to get past the Mantikora in SO. If the nerfs that already happened to the difficulty levels of SO and vDSA are any indicator, I would guess that they'll be fairly quick to reverse course.

Off topic:

And for the solo doubters:

Andy S YouTube (solo vids of nDSA)

DeusX youtube (solo vids of nDSA)

Whether or not it's incredibly hard or laughably easy, people do solo dungeons and DSA. Not really my thing personally, but it happens.

Halfwitte · July 2015

@Smiteye
Classic clueless ness clueless man. @Attorneyatlawl shouldn't be wasting his time on u, since u keep backpedaling. First u said nothing but block needed then u say weaving light increases gen after flaming the hell out of him for it. He mentions it and extends a nice olive branch and you carry on being a jerk. Truly boggling.

You have been moderated for name calling. Seriously they just closed this thread like 15 min ago for this kind of posting.

Dekkameron · July 2015

NB Siphoning strikes tanks will still be able to rock as well as ever!

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

In ESO, stamina cost per block doesn't scale based on how much damage is mitigated: it is the exact same static amount of 2,160 per hit mitigated, minus block cost reductions such as the champion system's (8.1% is a paltry 20 point investment), sword and shield's (30% passive), five-piece heavy armor (20% passive), and cost reduction glyphs for jewelry (200-point cost in stamina per block flat). If resource management is an issue just as I mentioned you can drop some of the weapon power glyphs or spell power ones on the rings/neck to bridge the gap more than handily there. When you're blocking hits from five attackers that hit every 2 seconds, for an average of 2.5 hits per second, the current meta of using weapon/spell power jewelry glyphs will leave you with (excluding champion system) a 1080 cost per hit blocked... depending on your champion rank, that will be lower. Adding two of those glyphs instead of just slapping in the damage ones like the current normal is, would result in a net gain of ~400 stamina less spent per hit at a rate of two and a half hits per second equals 1,000 stamina cost not spent every second. Coincidentally, that's equivalent to a full 2000 stamina regeneration rating as that ticks every two seconds (and thus is effectively 1,000 per second). Funny how math works out, eh?

I'd like to add to this.

The reason why some players aren't using shield play is, in part, because that enchant isn't as efficient as other jewelry enchants. As indicated by the following chart, anyone who is already using bracing and fortress (tanks with a sword, shield, and 5 pieces of heavy armor) are going to get pre-1.6 soft cap style diminished returns on their further investments into block cost reduction with jewelry. Even the champion point investment into block cost reduction gets diminished once fortress and bracing are present.

Adding block cost reduction enchantments will be a band-aid fix to stamina problems as the benefit of using those enchantments is greatly diminished.

Avenias · July 2015

Halfwitte wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

I think this will be a mistake, but I'm happy to try it out and be proved wrong.

An ERROR has occurred and ESO has shut down unexpectedly would you please describe in detail what was happening when the ERROR occurred.

Dying while Tanking just one mob!!

Working as Intended.

Nerf magicka regen while healing
Nerf Perma healers
Save us with your make everything better patch notes!

If they nerf magicka regen when they heal, it will cause the same ppl who demanded this change to start dying again. Then something else needs to be nerfed so that they can win again.

ZOS_MatM · July 2015

Hi, everyone.

We have already asked to keep this thread on topic please remember to keep your comments respectful at all times on our forums. Insults, naming and shaming, or other disruptive behavior do not help further discussion and can move a thread off topic quickly. A few comments have been removed, and more have (or will be) edited. Unfortunately we will have to close this thread if this continues.

Thank you for your understanding!

Bromburak · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

@Personofsecrets, Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yacj4kIQRhM

@Personofsecrets It makes no sense to show him his contrariness.
And his reaction to the video confirmed it just again ... Its like talking to politicians.

No worries, I believe others already have recognized this days ago.
Don't waste your time , its not worth it.

Jofish · July 2015

Thank you Mat, but it all boils down to play style... This thread got bonked off the topic Eons ago... why would you suggest that pve'ers will be fine with the nerf because you guys, with your maxed out machines, didn't find a problem with it?

Bromburak · July 2015

This is not about player skill its about imbalance between PvE and PvP based on questionable ZOS decisions.

The sad part is, that players like Attorneyoflawl trying to sell this change as a fix but it's pretty obvious that the change only disables a symptom, quick and dirty without further evaluations.

Disabling symptoms is not solving problems, something he ignores since pages.

WillS · July 2015

What exactly is the problem here, and why are we making changes?

Things are fixed when broken, not else.

So, we know perma blockers are kind of a broken thing in pvp which needs fixing.
However, PVE has little feel of being broken as a tank.

So, how about you just address the issue and not break other things that need no fixing?

One idea could be the stamina regen vastly reduced only in pvp. I say only in pvp cause there should be a use of regen too... otherwise why use drinks at all? i'd be upset if they had an ingame item that had little or no significance of being there even when having equal standards like food.

Another idea could be: The regen decreases as you continue blocking. Releasing block brings up the original regen count slowly.

We need to fix only the issue, not affect things that need not be tampered.

trimsic_ESO · July 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.

This. Time your blocks rather than tape down the key. Also confirmed with some tanks that run regularly that the Manti's autoattacks are indeed very slow on the swing timers and only will hit a proper tank build for 8-9k... it's just the specials (also a low swing speed) that hurt if you miss blocking, and those are as well-telegraphed as they look . Just like in PVP you should only be blocking selectively/timing when, anyways... that just shifts it to PVE as well. I think it's a fix, frankly, for both just as much as eachother.

People with a stamina build have access to a very limited set of defensive abilities to mitigate incoming damage. Most of what they can access to are part of the core game mechanics, such as blocking and dodging. There is almost no defensive weapon skills, thus requiring people who tank to use their class skills, which use magicka. This is the reason why so many DKs are tanking with 5 pieces of heavy and 2 LA, and use their stamina to mainly block and taunt. This is the reason why, in some extents you are right when you agree that blocking shall be used strategically: doing so does not impact them.

However, you should also consider the players with a stamina build. Remember, they have a limited access to defensive skills, because they can use only a limited amount of magicka. With the next update, blocking and dodging, their two main defensive skills will get nerf. This is a serious issue for the stamina players, and will push them to abandon their build and embrace a magicka build instead. Is this what we want? An Elder Magicka Online game? I don't because I wish a game with a great build diversity so that everybody can choose a build that corresponds to their play style.

There are so many Stamina based Skills to mitigate Dmg, well for DK this arent Class Skills, but public skills.

Absorb Magick, rly nice skill to heal urself
Vigor
rally if you want to use 2h for second bar
ring of preservation
bone shild
evasion

Vigor and rally do not mitigate damage; they heal over time, and are less effective than magicka heals. A PvP stamina player will probably have both; a PvE stamina player will hardly have any of them.

Absorb Magic is great. But single use, and only against magic projectiles. It's not as good the reflective scale, which is a DK class ability and therefore uses magicka.

The ring of protection is nice, and often used by tanks.

Bone shield lasts 6 seconds, costs a lot of stamina, and grants a protection against physical damage only, which in Elder Magicka Online is not the best option

Evasion is a flat 20% damage reduction in average, but we have no control over when it procs. If we're lucky it will proc on a crystal fragment, if we're not lucky it will proc on a light attack.

Best DK tank abilities according to the community:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/200565/best-dragon-knight-tank-abilities

All are class skill abilities, and therefore use ... magicka ...

BuggeX · July 2015

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.

This. Time your blocks rather than tape down the key. Also confirmed with some tanks that run regularly that the Manti's autoattacks are indeed very slow on the swing timers and only will hit a proper tank build for 8-9k... it's just the specials (also a low swing speed) that hurt if you miss blocking, and those are as well-telegraphed as they look . Just like in PVP you should only be blocking selectively/timing when, anyways... that just shifts it to PVE as well. I think it's a fix, frankly, for both just as much as eachother.

People with a stamina build have access to a very limited set of defensive abilities to mitigate incoming damage. Most of what they can access to are part of the core game mechanics, such as blocking and dodging. There is almost no defensive weapon skills, thus requiring people who tank to use their class skills, which use magicka. This is the reason why so many DKs are tanking with 5 pieces of heavy and 2 LA, and use their stamina to mainly block and taunt. This is the reason why, in some extents you are right when you agree that blocking shall be used strategically: doing so does not impact them.

However, you should also consider the players with a stamina build. Remember, they have a limited access to defensive skills, because they can use only a limited amount of magicka. With the next update, blocking and dodging, their two main defensive skills will get nerf. This is a serious issue for the stamina players, and will push them to abandon their build and embrace a magicka build instead. Is this what we want? An Elder Magicka Online game? I don't because I wish a game with a great build diversity so that everybody can choose a build that corresponds to their play style.

There are so many Stamina based Skills to mitigate Dmg, well for DK this arent Class Skills, but public skills.

Absorb Magick, rly nice skill to heal urself
Vigor
rally if you want to use 2h for second bar
ring of preservation
bone shild
evasion

Vigor and rally do not mitigate damage; they heal over time, and are less effective than magicka heals. A PvP stamina player will probably have both; a PvE stamina player will hardly have any of them.

Absorb Magic is great. But single use, and only against magic projectiles. It's not as good the reflective scale, which is a DK class ability and therefore uses magicka.

The ring of protection is nice, and often used by tanks.

Bone shield lasts 6 seconds, costs a lot of stamina, and grants a protection against physical damage only, which in Elder Magicka Online is not the best option

Evasion is a flat 20% damage reduction in average, but we have no control over when it procs. If we're lucky it will proc on a crystal fragment, if we're not lucky it will proc on a light attack.

Best DK tank abilities according to the community:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/200565/best-dragon-knight-tank-abilities

All are class skill abilities, and therefore use ... magicka ...

wath are you trying to say?

And btw this Skills arent the best one from a DK, and this skills dont make a DK so strong.

Best skills are :

Flame Lash
Burning Embers
Deep Breath

this skills are uniq, there arent Public skills or other class skills witch are similar.
They are Magicka based yes, but he didnt asked for dmg bases heals, he asked for stamina based mitigation and heals.

Nifty2g · July 2015

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.

This. Time your blocks rather than tape down the key. Also confirmed with some tanks that run regularly that the Manti's autoattacks are indeed very slow on the swing timers and only will hit a proper tank build for 8-9k... it's just the specials (also a low swing speed) that hurt if you miss blocking, and those are as well-telegraphed as they look . Just like in PVP you should only be blocking selectively/timing when, anyways... that just shifts it to PVE as well. I think it's a fix, frankly, for both just as much as eachother.

People with a stamina build have access to a very limited set of defensive abilities to mitigate incoming damage. Most of what they can access to are part of the core game mechanics, such as blocking and dodging. There is almost no defensive weapon skills, thus requiring people who tank to use their class skills, which use magicka. This is the reason why so many DKs are tanking with 5 pieces of heavy and 2 LA, and use their stamina to mainly block and taunt. This is the reason why, in some extents you are right when you agree that blocking shall be used strategically: doing so does not impact them.

However, you should also consider the players with a stamina build. Remember, they have a limited access to defensive skills, because they can use only a limited amount of magicka. With the next update, blocking and dodging, their two main defensive skills will get nerf. This is a serious issue for the stamina players, and will push them to abandon their build and embrace a magicka build instead. Is this what we want? An Elder Magicka Online game? I don't because I wish a game with a great build diversity so that everybody can choose a build that corresponds to their play style.

There are so many Stamina based Skills to mitigate Dmg, well for DK this arent Class Skills, but public skills.

Absorb Magick, rly nice skill to heal urself
Vigor
rally if you want to use 2h for second bar
ring of preservation
bone shild
evasion

Vigor and rally do not mitigate damage; they heal over time, and are less effective than magicka heals. A PvP stamina player will probably have both; a PvE stamina player will hardly have any of them.

Absorb Magic is great. But single use, and only against magic projectiles. It's not as good the reflective scale, which is a DK class ability and therefore uses magicka.

The ring of protection is nice, and often used by tanks.

Bone shield lasts 6 seconds, costs a lot of stamina, and grants a protection against physical damage only, which in Elder Magicka Online is not the best option

Evasion is a flat 20% damage reduction in average, but we have no control over when it procs. If we're lucky it will proc on a crystal fragment, if we're not lucky it will proc on a light attack.

Best DK tank abilities according to the community:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/200565/best-dragon-knight-tank-abilities

All are class skill abilities, and therefore use ... magicka ...

I think you misread the evasion tooltip

Leandor · July 2015

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Vigor and rally do not mitigate damage; they heal over time, and are less effective than magicka heals. A PvP stamina player will probably have both; a PvE stamina player will hardly have any of them.

This is an interesting opinion, considering we are talking about a stackable non-target-limited 5 second hot that heals 10k health on a decent stamina build for a cost of 1200 stamina (again on a decent stamina build with a couple CP in cost reduction). Please show me a similarly resource-effective magicka heal.

SeptimusDova · July 2015

So Block gets nerfed(pvp)
Healing gets nerfed(pvp)
Zerg's are encouraged ?
Lag is ignored
Exploits Ignored
Zenimax are you going to even try to fix the exploits and other glitches you have been sent on bug reports ?
It will be interesting to test on the PTS.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Daveheart wrote: »

On topic: For those of you who know/play with/are/talk to the "best tanks in the game", what makes you think the devs care if you can or can't successfully complete these trials with this change? When has the game been balanced around the best players in the game? Am I crazy for thinking that this change will only stick if the average to below average tank is capable of completing the content with it (whether it goes live or not)? There are still groups out there who completely wipe on vet DSA, using up all 100 lives. There are also groups that rejoice if they manage to get past the Mantikora in SO. If the nerfs that already happened to the difficulty levels of SO and vDSA are any indicator, I would guess that they'll be fairly quick to reverse course.

Off topic:

And for the solo doubters:

Andy S YouTube (solo vids of nDSA)

DeusX youtube (solo vids of nDSA)

Whether or not it's incredibly hard or laughably easy, people do solo dungeons and DSA. Not really my thing personally, but it happens.

What kind of question is that, exactly? Who on Earth could possibly think they care whether any one particular person can or can't do something? That would be absurdly conceited of anyone, regardless of who, to think that a game with millions of players should be balanced around themselves alone.

Turning that idea around, you could just as easily argue "what makes you think that the design is aimed at everyone being able to beat raid content", let alone easily or on their first tries? There are people who die to veteran zone world mobs fairly easily, too, by that benchmark, even after they were nerfed multiple times by launch and then received a major, sweeping nerf post-launch. We now have threads cropping up by brand new console players, even, of it being easy to the point of being a pain point to boredom due to that. Does that mean they need further nerfs still, because not everyone can breeze right through? Half of this thread isn't so much about the mechanics, I've noticed, but opinion as to how difficult the game should be.

By the time you're looking at the equivalent of what are "current tier raid" areas in other games, the bar should be a bit higher than nerfing down to the lowest common denominator

, not only so it is tougher and has longevity, but to give people something to work towards. Last month's 100-life-using new players have nothing stopping them from only needing ten this month. Instead of nerfing game content, it'd be nice to see more people looking at how to improve their gameplay. Balance shouldn't be done around only what most people can or cannot do now, but primarily around what can be done within the gameplay mechanics, then tempered by practicality with a margin of error. With 99.9% of the rest of the PVE content in the game being a small fraction of that difficulty, is it really so much to expect that for what design-wise is meant to be the "hardest in the game", it asks you to pick up the pace? That may be a pipe dream, I suppose though, to even hope for.

BuggeX · July 2015

SeptimusDova wrote: »

So Block gets nerfed(pvp)
Healing gets nerfed(pvp)
Zerg's are encouraged ?
Lag is ignored
Exploits Ignored
Zenimax are you going to even try to fix the exploits and other glitches you have been sent on bug reports ?
It will be interesting to test on the PTS.

Stop QQing arround, we will se a 54page patch note, read it and after you will have my permission to flame somthing about lag, exploit or anything else. And even then, we have no idea how much they change to the release.

eventide03b14a_ESO · July 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

No stamina regen while blocking will put a stop to the perma blockers. This is more directed toward PvP, but unfortunately will affect PvE as well.

How exactly do you expect people to tank in PvE now?

Blocking in PvE END GAME content is a must, there is a high use of stamina regen for tanking in PvE you can't just take that away, you will completely destroy the PvE content and cause a horrible uproar with this decision, I really hope ZOS that you are only having this affect PvP only as an effect in Cyrodill because there is no way a tank can take damage in Trials and plan certain bosses they will get one shot, there is no way you can tank in VDSA with everything eating your stamina and having no regen.

I hope those at ZOS have actually played trials before to understand this.

L2P? This game wasn't designed for perma blocking in mind. Seriously you are not supposed to block everything. There other defensive abilities other than right mouse click.