Why crafted items should retain a +1 stat level bonus...

Hiero_Glyph · July 2015

After watching the ESO presentation at QuakeCon 2015 I was both excited and confused. The idea of having to grind for all of the same items again at a higher VR is one thing, but to rebalance crafted items and remove their inherent stat advantage over dropped gear is a huge mistake. Let's put this in context and compare the effort involved in acquiring both.

For dropped gear you have to find where the item drops and grind it out or use a key/AP to have a chance to get the one you want. This is completely RNG based but you always get something for your efforts and you are rewarded instantly upon completing the required condition.

For crafted gear you first need to research the required number of traits to even craft the set. In the case of IC, most assume this will require 8 or even 9 traits. This takes 6+ months of research to craft a full set, not counting the time and money needed to acquire the items for the research. While many players have completed the research, the time investment required to do so is massive. Now add to this the fact that you need to acquire resources to make the items in question and that these are only found from deconstructing or using TV stones (for vr15-6) and you have yet another grind wall in place to slow this process.

So in the end you have one system that is RNG based and can be completed in a day if lucky, and another than requires 6+ months of effort to even be able to use and yet somehow ZoS sees these as equal. I'm sorry but crafters have earned that +1 stat level advantage on their gear. What's worse is that the crafted sets are useful but not exclusively so and many players use the dropped sets for the bonuses they provide anyway. I mean, is there any in-game data to support the fact that crafted gear is OP and needs to be nerfed? Beause that is what ZoS is doing by removing the slight stat bonus, not to mention completely ignoring the massive grind/time wall that crafting requires.

Please don't nerf crafted items.

Robbmrp · July 2015

So much for the original statement "Crafters will be able to make the best items in the game" or however it was worded. Yet again crafters get the shaft on this and are losing out to dropped gear.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom what's the point in ESO crafting and researching traits if people can only get the best gear from drops? So a crafter can improve those, so what. It's easy for someone to go from 1-50 in crafting. Then all they need is 3-4 skill points for the decreased improvement costs and they can upgrade their own gear. This is a complete waste of time to research traits that won't be needed because dropped items are better.

Why should anyone new to the game actually research items based on this? There's no reason to at all....

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

Zos plans another pointless nerf?

How did i miss it? On what promotional poster of 1.7 did they mention they want to now cripple all crafters in game and nerf crafted gear?

Sithisvoid · July 2015

BOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Sallington · July 2015

This is so people who want the best gear NEED to buy their DLC.

Unless they have a really good explanation on why a nerf to crafted gear is necessary.

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

I wonder how much more things zos will stealth nerf while they keep everyone busy with IC fireworks

Anhedonie · July 2015

Now I really hate IC DLC. Good job, ZO$.

JacksonCarter13 · July 2015

Actually a really good point. They def said what the op mentioned that crafters would be able to craft the most powerful gear. Problem with that is, if everyone could just by crafted gear that's exactly equal, why even run a dungeon Say ten times if you never need any gear at all.... This ruins trial drops pvp gear and dungeon gear. And most people use a combination of both for sure, along with the ability to choose your trait many people use crafted gear

MmmmTofu · July 2015

The problem has been going on since last year... the two or three-trait sets out-performs the 7 or 8-traited items

Elijah_Crow · July 2015

I have to agree. Crafting requires a lot of dedication and this is a slap in the face to all the crafters out there researching right now. Please reconsider.

Shogunami · July 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

So much for the original statement "Crafters will be able to make the best items in the game" or however it was worded. Yet again crafters get the shaft on this and are losing out to dropped gear

I remember a podcast/video where they said that "crafted items will always be better than dropped items". But yeah, that seems like yet another castle in the air.

Shogunami · July 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

So much for the original statement "Crafters will be able to make the best items in the game" or however it was worded. Yet again crafters get the shaft on this and are losing out to dropped gear

I remember a podcast/video where they said that "crafted items will always be better than dropped items". But yeah, that seems like yet another castle in the air.

UPrime · July 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I wonder how much more things zos will stealth nerf while they keep everyone busy with IC fireworks

Not saying this is a nerf or not, but how is this a stealth nerf? They openly said that they're going to do this in front of a crowd of people. There's nothing stealthy about it.

Hiero_Glyph · July 2015

MmmmTofu wrote: »

The problem has been going on since last year... the two or three-trait sets out-performs the 7 or 8-traited items

While I completely agree, this is an entirely separate issue. I do feel that ZoS needs to address this problem but the solution involves buffing the 5 piece bonus, not nerfing all of the stats on crafted gear.

Thymos · July 2015

I could go with them buffing the set bonuses of crafted gear.

Jando · July 2015

I'm a "master crafter." The problem I've had with crafting the best gear in the game is that I'm rarely excited about anything that drops in dungeons.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · July 2015

Shogunami wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

So much for the original statement "Crafters will be able to make the best items in the game" or however it was worded. Yet again crafters get the shaft on this and are losing out to dropped gear

I remember a podcast/video where they said that "crafted items will always be better than dropped items". But yeah, that seems like yet another castle in the air.

I believe that statement was from when the game was P2P. But now, if each new DLC offers better and better gear, they will make more money from players who want the best gear.

To be more fair and accurate, they have said they don't want to create any single 'best' set of gear. They want to create different sets that serve different purposes. Here's the exact quote from their recent post in the Dev forum:

Which gear is the "best" is truly subjective based on your preferred playstyle, build, and the type of content you most play. In the end, we didn’t design any of the new sets to be better than the others; we tried to make them all interesting and viable.

I do think crafted gear should have small advantages to make crafting more meaningful (though being able to pick your trait and style is itself a nice advantage already).

Gyudan · July 2015

I remember when they (Paul Sage) said that crafters would have an important role in the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed2VZXMJo8Y

Denaia · July 2015

Imo crafting is still worth while. You can craft the looks & some unique sets.

Plenty of reasons to go after it really.

Robbmrp · July 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Shogunami wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

So much for the original statement "Crafters will be able to make the best items in the game" or however it was worded. Yet again crafters get the shaft on this and are losing out to dropped gear

I remember a podcast/video where they said that "crafted items will always be better than dropped items". But yeah, that seems like yet another castle in the air.

I believe that statement was from when the game was P2P. But now, if each new DLC offers better and better gear, they will make more money from players who want the best gear.

To be more fair and accurate, they have said they don't want to create any single 'best' set of gear. They want to create different sets that serve different purposes. Here's the exact quote from their recent post in the Dev forum:

Which gear is the "best" is truly subjective based on your preferred playstyle, build, and the type of content you most play. In the end, we didn’t design any of the new sets to be better than the others; we tried to make them all interesting and viable.

I do think crafted gear should have small advantages to make crafting more meaningful (though being able to pick your trait and style is itself a nice advantage already).

They need to make more crafted sets period. We should have a 50/50 ratio for crafted:dropped sets. To be adding 23 new sets to the game with only 3 craftable isn't going to help anyone who likes to create their own gear. It's just going to limit us more.

Darkonflare15 · July 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

I remember when they (Paul Sage) said that crafters would have an important role in the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed2VZXMJo8Y

Hmmm.. Paul Sage is gone now.

Rune_Relic · July 2015

They have reviewed all the sets and created new ones.
If some sets are only found is PVE dungeons, some in PVP areas and some only through crafting....
...I don't see that much of a problems.
It still requires crafters to produce sets that cant be obtained any other way than from specific crafting stations.
It still requires PVP to be done to gain PVP specific sets.
It still requires PVE dungeons to be done to gain those specific sets.

What I am saying is I think they are going down the unique gear isolation route rather than the crafting power route.
Those who PVP, PVE and Craft will have access to all sets.
Failing that use TV stones or gold.

Does it not help crafting/sales if certain gear can only be obtained from crafters ?

Dweebert · July 2015

I'd actually like to see more Crafted sets available and on par with Dropped Sets. Not everyone crafts their gear and not everyone runs Dungeons. Since we have no capability to make Rings and Necklaces have those items that are worthy( Legendary) drop in the Big dungeons.. Blue and Purple versions in 4 man and even the possibility of Blue and Green of the same set on Delves..

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Jando wrote: »

I'm a "master crafter." The problem I've had with crafting the best gear in the game is that I'm rarely excited about anything that drops in dungeons.

Yep, everyone and their vanity pet is a master crafter or can be trivially if they want. You can buy the finished goods for the cost of materials in 99.9999999999999 percent of circumstances at any hour day or night due to how common and easy it is. There is no difficulty in it. The cost is marginal, running around 25 to 30 thousand gold for enchanting at most, around 12k on each alchemist alt I have done on my mule, and less for the rest (provisioning clocks in at about 5k gold) . The only minute thing is the time gate on traits but as covered above that's easily worked around for the pieces you don't yet have maxed if you even bother to try to max them as there's no real benefit in doing so.

The easiest gear in the game that is also even bind on equip and available for chump change shouldn't be the most powerful and certainly not affected by just being brought to par by a while two spell or weapon power to match drops on the bonuses. Crafted gear is far too powerful and always has been, but this change openly and loudly announced at a major venue, doesn't change anything on that front.

UPrime wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I wonder how much more things zos will stealth nerf while they keep everyone busy with IC fireworks

Not saying this is a nerf or not, but how is this a stealth nerf? They openly said that they're going to do this in front of a crowd of people. There's nothing stealthy about it.

I don't think the term means what he thinks or is being used for dramatic effect to support the opinion. A stealth nerf is not announced, often not easily noticed and has an actual impact on the power of a skill or Item to significant effect that someone came across it in gameplay because it wasn't announced wasn't in the patch notes, and was never discussed beforehand. This... doesn't match any of those criteria

.

Robbmrp · July 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

They have reviewed all the sets and created new ones.
If some sets are only found is PVE dungeons, some in PVP areas and some only through crafting....
...I don't see that much of a problems.
It still requires crafters to produce sets that cant be obtained any other way than from specific crafting stations.
It still requires PVP to be done to gain PVP specific sets.
It still requires PVE dungeons to be done to gain those specific sets.

What I am saying is I think they are going down the unique gear isolation route rather than the crafting power route.
Those who PVP, PVE and Craft will have access to all sets.
Failing that use TV stones or gold.

Does it not help crafting/sales if certain gear can only be obtained from crafters ?

It does, but those sets aren't in high demand like Morag Tong and the Arch-Mage. Those sets are the best DPS/magicka sets in the game and have NO PVP bonuses on them. If they are going to split gear that way, then EVERY PVP GEAR SET should have a PVP bonus on it. Take the Dominion sets for example, they all have a 5% reduction to player damage or another based on siege damage. IMO every set that can be obtained through PVP should have bonuses specifically related to PVP. Sets like Morag Tong and Arch-mage since they do not have any "specific" PVP bonus should be craftable. I would even be happy with being able to craft some PVP sets. As long as there's something that crafters could make that's at least equal to PVP gear we'd be happy.

QuebraRegra · July 2015

Considering how much must be invested into crafting to make it at all worthwhile, and then with the rollback on the concept that the crafted sets would be the better than drops, beyond cosmetics, why really bother crafting then?

Allow me to express this change in a simple formula:
FARMING DLC > CRAFTING = P2WIN

Boycott the DLC, send a message to ZOS that crafting is important. The DLlC should be good enough to stand on it's own merits without the necessity of of a pay-2-win mechanic to boost sales.

MrGhosty · July 2015

I think it depends largely on what the gear bonuses actually will be before the concept that this change has ruined crafting can ring true.

I've always seen Dropped vs Crafted gear in a particular light, many of the best sets atm are dropped and the two piece undaunted sets require just as much devotion to the cause as any crafter researching. The difference obviously being that the dungeon runner has a chance to get what they want at first go (if the rng gods are with you) and the grind is an active endeavor compared to researching traits being a fire and forget endeavor.

These dropped sets have very worthwhile bonuses that appeal to the crowd as a whole, but with the benefits of crafted armor the difference is small and probably only easily seen by the min/maxers who are pushing their gear and build to its limits. Whether or not this change will be harmful is largely unknown until we can see the actual set bonuses to determine whether (planned or not) ZOS just implemented absolute,without a question, best in game gear that cannot be crafted.

I prefer to craft my own armor because I don't like spending gold, and part of the fun for me is deciding on my set bonuses and choosing which style(s) I want to use. That is an intrinsic part of the process, so I doubt this change will affect me.

Crafting as whole in this game is broken. As Attorneyatlawl said, everyone is a master crafter it's because of this that dropped bonuses for items such as the psjic recipe fragments have an atrocious drop rate for folks who only have on crafter vs 8. With the amount of skill points available at later levels, it isn't even terribly difficult to have multiple professions on one character. Crafting should require just as much of a time commitment as the PvPers and PvErs who run their specialized content rather than simply being something everyone does. ESO is my first MMO that I played for a considerable amount of time so I sadly don't have anything else to put forward as a better way to do it but I've seen some interesting takes on crafting in single player games that might be worthwhile.

Essentially, I would hold off on your declarations until we actually have some facts in front of us. ZOS is naturally going to do everything possible to make the DLC they offer almost a requirment or else they would not succeed. If such moves upset you, I would highly suggest moving on now because I don't honestly see it getting better in that regard. They are going to do whatever they can to sell as many DLC packs as possible. This means gating content in one way or another.

Forestd16b14_ESO · July 2015

+1

Crafted gear should be better than dropped gear cause we actually took the time and gold to research and get the mats to make it if not better at least put it on the same level as dropped gear. Like way of the arena or Twice born star like what would be the point of making and using them when dropped gear is clearly better than a few point boost to stats and a reduced break free.

Rioht · July 2015

Unfortunately, if crafting was the end all for endgame gear. What would be the point in doing content when you already have all the best gear at your finger tips?

Crafting is still valuable in that many builds still utilize (and will most likely continue to) a combination of crafted sets and dropped sets.

Should dropped sets be better? No. Should they contain bonuses that offer more variaty amongst builds that are not available instantly through crafting? Yes.

Edgemoor · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Crafted gear is far too powerful and always has been,

Too powerful in relation to what? Certainly not the sets you get in instances (many of which are far better), and since ZOS has stated crafters would be important I'd say it is nicely placed as the lowest tier of gear you can obtain.

Crafting as someone has pointed out takes 6 months to get the traits to do the sets, depending on what sets you want, and also means you have to hunt for the traits to research in the first place. Reason it is easily disarded as throw away is the length of time yourself and other players have been around, new players have no chance to get the crafted sets easily unless they join a guild that hands it to them. Or they have to wait for 6 months or more to research the traits.

But if you want best in slot, and gear combo, then you will almost certainly will have to both PvP and do PvE end game.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Edgemoor wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Crafted gear is far too powerful and always has been,

Too powerful in relation to what? Certainly not the sets you get in instances (many of which are far better), and since ZOS has stated crafters would be important I'd say it is nicely placed as the lowest tier of gear you can obtain.

Too powerful in relation to the trivial effort it takes to obtain.