Why crafted items should retain a +1 stat level bonus...

Edgemoor

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Edgemoor wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Crafted gear is far too powerful and always has been,

Too powerful in relation to what? Certainly not the sets you get in instances (many of which are far better), and since ZOS has stated crafters would be important I'd say it is nicely placed as the lowest tier of gear you can obtain.

Too powerful in relation to the trivial effort it takes to obtain.

6 months to research the traits and then you have to locate the traits for the armour and weapons themselves? Compared to similar MMO's that's hardly trivial. It's not trivial even if you don't compare it.

Halke

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Edgemoor wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Crafted gear is far too powerful and always has been,

Too powerful in relation to what? Certainly not the sets you get in instances (many of which are far better), and since ZOS has stated crafters would be important I'd say it is nicely placed as the lowest tier of gear you can obtain.

Too powerful in relation to the trivial effort it takes to obtain.

Never thought I would actually agree with you ^.^ I don't know that making it on par is the answer though. Hunding's and Ashen for example, along with Torug and Seducer, are great sets. The bonuses are balanced well and the five (or three) piece either makes sense or is livable. I think the issue comes in in the variety they tried to give sets while giving us a system (for DPS at least) where flat damage is the meta. There are sets both crafted and dropped that I would love to run but that kill my DPS (looking at you Sunderflame). I think a better answer would be to go back in and re-balance sets, then see if crafting needs lowered again. The eight and nine trait needed sets should be the most powerful crafted ones, that they aren't is just sad.

That said, I don't really like PvP all that much, so since dungeon drops are a joke and I have no gold, crafted gear allows me to get somewhat close to what people are outputting with the PvP sets. I really don't want to have to beg in guild to have the gear to be able to go on runs, and with how the sets are right now if crafted gets any worse I would have to.

Rune_Relic

Robbmrp wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

They have reviewed all the sets and created new ones.
If some sets are only found is PVE dungeons, some in PVP areas and some only through crafting....
...I don't see that much of a problems.
It still requires crafters to produce sets that cant be obtained any other way than from specific crafting stations.
It still requires PVP to be done to gain PVP specific sets.
It still requires PVE dungeons to be done to gain those specific sets.

What I am saying is I think they are going down the unique gear isolation route rather than the crafting power route.
Those who PVP, PVE and Craft will have access to all sets.
Failing that use TV stones or gold.

Does it not help crafting/sales if certain gear can only be obtained from crafters ?

It does, but those sets aren't in high demand like Morag Tong and the Arch-Mage. Those sets are the best DPS/magicka sets in the game and have NO PVP bonuses on them. If they are going to split gear that way, then EVERY PVP GEAR SET should have a PVP bonus on it. Take the Dominion sets for example, they all have a 5% reduction to player damage or another based on siege damage. IMO every set that can be obtained through PVP should have bonuses specifically related to PVP. Sets like Morag Tong and Arch-mage since they do not have any "specific" PVP bonus should be craftable. I would even be happy with being able to craft some PVP sets. As long as there's something that crafters could make that's at least equal to PVP gear we'd be happy.

I cant and wont argue as I pretty much agree.
There is some gear I would like to craft....but the really powerful gear I cannot obtain without 1,000,000s of gold.
TBH its not OP as such ...but more the most viable combination that is only available via dropped weapon/jewellery/sets
Crafting cant make anything comparable.
ie Tong + Dreugh King + twice fanged as its one of the few ways to make use of all slots in a harmonious way.
Jewellery crafting could change that.
A good and fair mix of set bonuses that didn't overlap but complemented each other would be good.

But then I have to argue why ? do I want such a set.
The I have to admit because if you don't max out DPS in PVP you are going home in a body bag.
Tanks and healers are simply cannon fodder.
Fixing PVP balance would help.
[Exploit builds aside]

Iluvrien

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Edgemoor wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Crafted gear is far too powerful and always has been,

Too powerful in relation to what? Certainly not the sets you get in instances (many of which are far better), and since ZOS has stated crafters would be important I'd say it is nicely placed as the lowest tier of gear you can obtain.

Too powerful in relation to the trivial effort it takes to obtain.

Then increase the effort it takes to obtain. Don't go back on yet another previous statement by nerfing crafting. Again.

J2JMC

Crafting isn't being nerfed. Dropped sets are getting buffed. Once again, any crafted set that isn't reworked will give the same bonuses. ZOS doesn't believe crafting is op. They just wanted to introduce parity among where the items are obtained. With that said, I'm not even sure if all dropped sets are getting buffed or just the ic sets.

Tavore1138

Coupled with no known way to harvest nodes with VR15/VR16 crafting materials and now this - IC sounds like they are going back on a bunch of promises about crafting. I wish I could still be surprised by this sort of thing instead of just feeling tired.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Do i get it right, you guys are complaining that weapons that you can craft after 1 week of playing won't be much better than weapons that require you to do end game content anymore?
I wouldn't mind if they add crafted weapons that are better than dungeon drops, if there was actually skill required to craft them. But at the moment almost everyone can just craft the best weapons for himself.

Hiero_Glyph

J2JMC wrote: »

Crafting isn't being nerfed. Dropped sets are getting buffed. Once again, any crafted set that isn't reworked will give the same bonuses. ZOS doesn't believe crafting is op. They just wanted to introduce parity among where the items are obtained. With that said, I'm not even sure if all dropped sets are getting buffed or just the ic sets.

Actually in the presentation they specifically said they were removing the +1 stat level bonus on crafted sets. They then went on to say how vr16 TV sets would be the strongest we have seen so far. What this means in terms of balance is unknown but crafted sets are definitely being nerfed, possibly only for vr15-16 though.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Crafting isn't being nerfed. Dropped sets are getting buffed. Once again, any crafted set that isn't reworked will give the same bonuses. ZOS doesn't believe crafting is op. They just wanted to introduce parity among where the items are obtained. With that said, I'm not even sure if all dropped sets are getting buffed or just the ic sets.

Actually in the presentation they specifically said they were removing the +1 stat level bonus on crafted sets. They then went on to say how vr16 TV sets would be the strongest we have seen so far. What this means in terms of balance is unknown but crafted sets are definitely being nerfed, possibly only for vr15-16 though.

So want the best crafted set gear use v14 but want best crafted defense use v16. Yea that logic seems flawless.

J2JMC

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Crafting isn't being nerfed. Dropped sets are getting buffed. Once again, any crafted set that isn't reworked will give the same bonuses. ZOS doesn't believe crafting is op. They just wanted to introduce parity among where the items are obtained. With that said, I'm not even sure if all dropped sets are getting buffed or just the ic sets.

Actually in the presentation they specifically said they were removing the +1 stat level bonus on crafted sets. They then went on to say how vr16 TV sets would be the strongest we have seen so far. What this means in terms of balance is unknown but crafted sets are definitely being nerfed, possibly only for vr15-16 though.

"We wanted there to be a parity between all these different types of items. So instead of nerfing crafting, which of course we don't want do, we instead increased the power level on all the drop items..."

twitch.tv/bethesda/v/8441837?t=55m55s

Soulshine

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

After watching the ESO presentation at QuakeCon 2015 I was both excited and confused. The idea of having to grind for all of the same items again at a higher VR is one thing, but to rebalance crafted items and remove their inherent stat advantage over dropped gear is a huge mistake. Let's put this in context and compare the effort involved in acquiring both.

For dropped gear you have to find where the item drops and grind it out or use a key/AP to have a chance to get the one you want. This is completely RNG based but you always get something for your efforts and you are rewarded instantly upon completing the required condition.

For crafted gear you first need to research the required number of traits to even craft the set. In the case of IC, most assume this will require 8 or even 9 traits. This takes 6+ months of research to craft a full set, not counting the time and money needed to acquire the items for the research. While many players have completed the research, the time investment required to do so is massive. Now add to this the fact that you need to acquire resources to make the items in question and that these are only found from deconstructing or using TV stones (for vr15-6) and you have yet another grind wall in place to slow this process.

So in the end you have one system that is RNG based and can be completed in a day if lucky, and another than requires 6+ months of effort to even be able to use and yet somehow ZoS sees these as equal. I'm sorry but crafters have earned that +1 stat level advantage on their gear. What's worse is that the crafted sets are useful but not exclusively so and many players use the dropped sets for the bonuses they provide anyway. I mean, is there any in-game data to support the fact that crafted gear is OP and needs to be nerfed? Beause that is what ZoS is doing by removing the slight stat bonus, not to mention completely ignoring the massive grind/time wall that crafting requires.

Please don't nerf crafted items.

While I understand your concerns about crafting -- I have maxed out crafters in all professions -- I think you are grossly exaggerating the situation.

Hiero_Glyph

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Crafting isn't being nerfed. Dropped sets are getting buffed. Once again, any crafted set that isn't reworked will give the same bonuses. ZOS doesn't believe crafting is op. They just wanted to introduce parity among where the items are obtained. With that said, I'm not even sure if all dropped sets are getting buffed or just the ic sets.

Actually in the presentation they specifically said they were removing the +1 stat level bonus on crafted sets. They then went on to say how vr16 TV sets would be the strongest we have seen so far. What this means in terms of balance is unknown but crafted sets are definitely being nerfed, possibly only for vr15-16 though.

So want the best crafted set gear use v14 but want best crafted defense use v16. Yea that logic seems flawless.

That logic seems to favor buying a DLC over actual item balance.

To be fair, this thread has many great ideas about how to give crafting value considering the time sink while also making dropped sets valuable. Some good ideas concern rebalancing the 5-piece bonuses, specifically for the higher trait sets, and giving PvP sets specific PvP bonuses.

Personally, if crafted items are going to become just like every other dropped set then ZoS needs to vastly reduce the time/grind barrier to craft them. Alternatively, adding master sets which require 9 traits and include the +1 stat level and can be applied to any crafted set could also work and would justify the time required to learn all 9 traits.

Obviously there are a variety of methods that ZoS can use to make crafing viable without taking away from what dropped sets offer. Monster sets are a great example of how dropped sets are valuable despite crafted sets being statistically superior. If only ZoS could follow this trend instead of what looks to be making all current gear obsolete with each new DLC (but that is a topic for another time)..

Forestd16b14_ESO

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Crafting isn't being nerfed. Dropped sets are getting buffed. Once again, any crafted set that isn't reworked will give the same bonuses. ZOS doesn't believe crafting is op. They just wanted to introduce parity among where the items are obtained. With that said, I'm not even sure if all dropped sets are getting buffed or just the ic sets.

Actually in the presentation they specifically said they were removing the +1 stat level bonus on crafted sets. They then went on to say how vr16 TV sets would be the strongest we have seen so far. What this means in terms of balance is unknown but crafted sets are definitely being nerfed, possibly only for vr15-16 though.

So want the best crafted set gear use v14 but want best crafted defense use v16. Yea that logic seems flawless.

That logic seems to favor buying a DLC over actual item balance.

To be fair, this thread has many great ideas about how to give crafting value considering the time sink while also making dropped sets valuable. Some good ideas concern rebalancing the 5-piece bonuses, specifically for the higher trait sets, and giving PvP sets specific PvP bonuses.

Personally, if crafted items are going to become just like every other dropped set then ZoS needs to vastly reduce the time/grind barrier to craft them. Alternatively, adding master sets which require 9 traits and include the +1 stat level and can be applied to any crafted set could also work and would justify the time required to learn all 9 traits.

Obviously there are a variety of methods that ZoS can use to make crafing viable without taking away from what dropped sets offer. Monster sets are a great example of how dropped sets are valuable despite crafted sets being statistically superior. If only ZoS could follow this trend instead of what looks to be making all current gear obsolete with each new DLC (but that is a topic for another time)..

So make sets drop easier no need to nerf craft. When Skyrim offered craftable gear I was just so gitty with joy that black smith was always my first 100 on every character I did cause I love craft and it proves that you don't need to spend hours on hours of grinding dungeons to get good gear when good gear is litteraly at your finger tip you just have to work hard for it.

Tannus15

Some crafted sets are great in this game, in particular Hist bark and hundings rage are a stand out.

I do feel that the 8 trait sets are a let down, and I really feel that magika DPS is very poorly represented in the crafted sets.

I think Mara's Eyes is a good set for healers, and would love it if Shalidars curse could be reworked to grant some sort of Destro staff bonus.

I really think the elephant in the room is jewellry though. Sets with jewellry are far better than sets without and only drop sets get jewellry.

DDuke

Oh, because crafting (or having someone else craft) your BiS gear the first 5 minutes you reach level cap is fun... not.

As long as the effort of crafting is close to zero, it should always be weaker than dropped sets (not currently the case).

Why would I run trials or dungeons, if I can just craft better gear with 10x less effort involved?

I don't want to wear Hunding's Rage, I want to wear Vicious Ophidian which took me hundreds of hours to acquire a full set, going through the most difficult content this game has to offer.

Gear strength must always match the effort & skill required to acquire it. MMO basics.


Itemization has been a problem in this game ever since launch, and I for one am glad to hear they're finally working to make it better.

starkerealm

Jando wrote: »

I'm a "master crafter." The problem I've had with crafting the best gear in the game is that I'm rarely excited about anything that drops in dungeons.

I've honestly looked at drop sets and gone, "that looks really cool. I'd use that... oh, wait it would also be substantially worse than what I'm wearing right now."

I mean, I liked the idea that crafting gear was better than any other, because it gave a real incentive to work up crafting... but in the end, it did a real number to finding anything neat in game.

I mean, if I outfit a level 10 with green gear, I'd need to find level 10 purple drop items to get something better?

And for my VR14... I'm never going to see anything better drop unless it's an undaunted piece.

Korah_Eaglecry

The reason behind this change is pretty obvious. By removing the crafters benefit, you push players to buy IC to actually get them in the city and grind out those top tier gear. This benefits ZOS and no one else.

We are witnessing some of the first steps, not the first, to make significant changes to the games mechanics and playability to drive the playerbase to the Crownstore as often as they can get us to open our wallet.

starkerealm

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The reason behind this change is pretty obvious. By removing the crafters benefit, you push players to buy IC to actually get them in the city and grind out those top tier gear. This benefits ZOS and no one else.

We are witnessing some of the first steps, not the first, to make significant changes to the games mechanics and playability to drive the playerbase to the Crownstore as often as they can get us to open our wallet.

Which will work right up until the moment when the new materials start hitting the guild kiosks...

Honestly, this is addressing a problem right now. If you're a maxed out crafter, you will (basically) never get neat loot. Just random garbage you can decon for upgrade mats and new varieties of junk in your inventory.

This makes crafters still have a way to find neat crap, while leveling and playing, through the base game. It also means drop sets (again, not in IC) have some actual meaning to a crafter (baring the handful with stupidly good set bonuses).

If IC was, "Open yer wallet nao tiem" then you'd be seeing stuff like "build your own set bonuses" and BoP crafted sets.

Faulgor

Some people are wildly exaggerating the difficulty of crafting.
Their new approach seems to be the right one.

Nebthet78

starkerealm wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

The reason behind this change is pretty obvious. By removing the crafters benefit, you push players to buy IC to actually get them in the city and grind out those top tier gear. This benefits ZOS and no one else.

We are witnessing some of the first steps, not the first, to make significant changes to the games mechanics and playability to drive the playerbase to the Crownstore as often as they can get us to open our wallet.

Which will work right up until the moment when the new materials start hitting the guild kiosks...

Honestly, this is addressing a problem right now. If you're a maxed out crafter, you will (basically) never get neat loot. Just random garbage you can decon for upgrade mats and new varieties of junk in your inventory.

This makes crafters still have a way to find neat crap, while leveling and playing, through the base game. It also means drop sets (again, not in IC) have some actual meaning to a crafter (baring the handful with stupidly good set bonuses).

If IC was, "Open yer wallet nao tiem" then you'd be seeing stuff like "build your own set bonuses" and BoP crafted sets.

Tactics like this are the reason I will not buy IC at all. Nor be subscribing during it's release.

starkerealm

Faulgor wrote: »

Some people are wildly exaggerating the difficulty of crafting.
Their new approach seems to be the right one.

Not even the difficulty, just... I mean... okay, right now, I hit Vet14, 20 minutes later I have the best gear I'm ever going to see on my character until something new drops, unless I go in for the Helmet farm... that's a balance problem.

Korah_Eaglecry

starkerealm wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Some people are wildly exaggerating the difficulty of crafting.
Their new approach seems to be the right one.

Not even the difficulty, just... I mean... okay, right now, I hit Vet14, 20 minutes later I have the best gear I'm ever going to see on my character until something new drops, unless I go in for the Helmet farm... that's a balance problem.

How is it a balance problem? If you can do it, everyone else can do it.

Tannus15

The hyperbole, it strikes at my brain and makes me weep!

Crafted gear should ABSOLOUTLY be at least as good as dropped gear, precisly because you hit VR14 and 20 minutes later you've got really a really solid setup.

This breaks the 'normal' *** with end game of gear gating. Neither I, not anyone else, likes the idea of running vet groups until you finally get that gear drop to get you good enough to do trials so you can finally have a chance at getting gear good enough to compete in PvP or whatever.

It's crap. One of the things I really appreciate about this game is that I got to VR14 and instantly had a Tank that could do OK in whatever group, while at the same time there was still room to improve.

I think my first setup had 5 hist bark, 4 orgnum and some random blue stamina jewelry. Now I'm still running 5 histbark but also 5 footman and 2 resiliant yokeda and I'm considering ditching the footman set bonus for the yokeda set bonus. Dunno, but there are LOTS of options.

I wanted to try out a stamina DPS build with the same character. 5 hundings with 3 ashen grip and generic stamina jewellry again and now i've got 3 peice ophidian on the bow and 3 piece dreugh king (still hoping to get the sword drop for the 4 peice dreugh, currently 2 ar and neck)

But the point is that I had a functional VR14 with crafted that no one would look at and say "you can't run X with that, go farm vcoa until you have the helmet" like they do in pretty much every other MMO.
This is AWESOME.

Tholian1

Faulgor wrote: »

Some people are wildly exaggerating the difficulty of crafting.
Their new approach seems to be the right one.

It isn't about the difficulty of crafting. Crafting takes a lot of skill points that could be used elsewhere. That is reason enough for the crafted sets to be more valuable and useful.

Tannus15

Tholian1 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Some people are wildly exaggerating the difficulty of crafting.
Their new approach seems to be the right one.

It isn't about the difficulty of crafting. Crafting takes a lot of skill points that could be used elsewhere. That is reason enough for the crafted sets to be more valuable and useful.

Do you think crafted sets themselves should be better or should the crafter have a passive bonus of some sort like the increased food duration on provisioning?

Tholian1

Tannus15 wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Some people are wildly exaggerating the difficulty of crafting.
Their new approach seems to be the right one.

It isn't about the difficulty of crafting. Crafting takes a lot of skill points that could be used elsewhere. That is reason enough for the crafted sets to be more valuable and useful.

Do you think crafted sets themselves should be better or should the crafter have a passive bonus of some sort like the increased food duration on provisioning?

I think the sets should be better.

As far as a bonus passive for mastering the craft, that should already exist, but doesn't. I wouldn't object to achieving a bonus passive for my skill point investment, but I would also want them to shave some points off of the crafting trees if it is going to just become a personal bonus.

Tannus15

Come to think of it I'll be annoyed if I need to put even more skills into crafting to hit VR15/16

jircris11

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

After watching the ESO presentation at QuakeCon 2015 I was both excited and confused. The idea of having to grind for all of the same items again at a higher VR is one thing, but to rebalance crafted items and remove their inherent stat advantage over dropped gear is a huge mistake. Let's put this in context and compare the effort involved in acquiring both.

For dropped gear you have to find where the item drops and grind it out or use a key/AP to have a chance to get the one you want. This is completely RNG based but you always get something for your efforts and you are rewarded instantly upon completing the required condition.

For crafted gear you first need to research the required number of traits to even craft the set. In the case of IC, most assume this will require 8 or even 9 traits. This takes 6+ months of research to craft a full set, not counting the time and money needed to acquire the items for the research. While many players have completed the research, the time investment required to do so is massive. Now add to this the fact that you need to acquire resources to make the items in question and that these are only found from deconstructing or using TV stones (for vr15-6) and you have yet another grind wall in place to slow this process.

So in the end you have one system that is RNG based and can be completed in a day if lucky, and another than requires 6+ months of effort to even be able to use and yet somehow ZoS sees these as equal. I'm sorry but crafters have earned that +1 stat level advantage on their gear. What's worse is that the crafted sets are useful but not exclusively so and many players use the dropped sets for the bonuses they provide anyway. I mean, is there any in-game data to support the fact that crafted gear is OP and needs to be nerfed? Beause that is what ZoS is doing by removing the slight stat bonus, not to mention completely ignoring the massive grind/time wall that crafting requires.

Please don't nerf crafted items.

Sadly its another case of devs listening to those who dont like crafting and want raid (dropped) armor to be the best. sadly that makes it so people such as my self who can not pvp/raid unable to compete.

Stalwart385

That +1 doesnt mean much to me. What matters are the set bonuses. That will determine the demand.

If the set bonuses are good, crafted will likely be prefered. For the customized type, slot and trait alone.

No idea why they are going back on their original plan though.

J2JMC

Stalwart385 wrote: »

That +1 doesnt mean much to me. What matters are the set bonuses. That will determine the demand.

If the set bonuses are good, crafted will likely be prefered. For the customized type, slot and trait alone.

No idea why they are going back on their original plan though.

I mean they aren't removing the bonus from crafting. They are bringing up the stats of dropped gear so all gear in game regardless of how it's obtained will have equal stats at the same level.