Avenias wrote: »

<snip>

You dont need to be a professional game designer to know if something is a bad design. Thats like saying oh i dont know if global warming exists because i am not a scientist.

I said something along those lines in another thread in regards to bad ideas. Great minds think alike.

DDuke wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

How about making some constructive feedback instead (for once), rather than crying about something you have never even tested?

In case this solution to permablock brings more problems with it (still remains to be seen), how would you:

• Make resource management really matter for a tank, especially in boss fights?
• Encourage people not to taunt every mob in the room, reducing the role of dps to most basic "hack&slash"?
• Encourage people to CC dangerous trash mobs, rather than having them tanked?

Awaiting your constructive feedback.*

*Calling for upcoming balance changes to be dismantled because you feel they wont work well isn't exactly what can be considered constructive criticism. In fact, it falls under the definition of destructive criticism.

This assumes we accept the premise that the change is necessary to begin with.

You sound like a politician.

It's okay to simply be the voice of "NO" when the idea is a bad one. No alternative need be supplied if all parties are not in agreement that there is a problem to begin with.

I think I'm on solid group when I tell you a great many of us reject your basic premise.

As for constructive criticism, I would like to suggest they leave it exactly the way it is for PvE and do whatever the heck they want to PvP because PvP is a mess and probably always will be. If not perma-blocking it will be some other nonsensical flavor of the month OP build that everyone not running it just shakes their heads at.

So, lets not break what works. How's that for constructive feedback?

And you are assuming that this breaks something.

What if they're trying to improve the tanking (and subsequently whole PvE aspect) of the game by making this change?

Oh, but of course you know better than the professional game designers do how this change (along with other changes) will affect game balance, who am I kidding.


Game is not perfect and it can always be improved. In my opinion, this can very well improve it (see the list I made above and remove question marks).

In fact, I wish they'd go even further and added another iconic MMO element to tanking: threat management (not just taunt every x seconds). But that is another topic.

Good that PTS gets the patch soon and this gets resolved. Last months my tank theorycrafting has been just how much i can reduce tankiness and increase dps and heals.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.

This. Time your blocks rather than tape down the key. Also confirmed with some tanks that run regularly that the Manti's autoattacks are indeed very slow on the swing timers and only will hit a proper tank build for 8-9k... it's just the specials (also a low swing speed) that hurt if you miss blocking, and those are as well-telegraphed as they look . Just like in PVP you should only be blocking selectively/timing when, anyways... that just shifts it to PVE as well. I think it's a fix, frankly, for both just as much as eachother.

There is going to be very little strategic about what is to come.

As has been written about many times. Stamina regeneration ticks occur every 2 seconds and enemy attacks occur all at different rates. That is especially so when multiple enemies are queing up different kinds of attacks against the tank.

Unblocking for the chance of getting a stamina regeneration tick during the small opportunity that it occurs while at the same time there is no incoming attack has nothing to do with strategy and everything to do with wild chance.

Regeneration ticks have occurred every 2 seconds in-combat since the early betas... that's hardly news . The best tanks currently do not (nor have in the past) hold down the key, and that includes for a large part of AOE pulls. They took the time to learn the first time or two they ran the Trials which mobs have attacks that should take priority on blocking, and what attacks absolutely need to be, so they could deal DPS and keep the rest of the raid doing so more easily, as well as how to recognize when they should hold that block down because it's dangerous not to. They use mitigation and avoidance in addition to just simply taping down that left mouse button and hoping for the best, because they are good tanks: and that involves knowing what is happening in the gameplay, not just spamming taunt on every mob in sight.

Contrary to popular belief, a Scaled Court Skirmisher being loose in an AOE pull in Sanctum doesn't spell doom for the raid and is laughed off by DPS while the pull is nuked on down. I generally play as DPS, by the way. Unblocking is a very normal and doable part of tanking, and if you're watching your environment which is a basic gameplay skill in PVE and PVP... you should rarely be taken completely unaware and feel like doing so would be leaving things to "wild chance."

olemanwinter wrote: »

So, lets not break what works. How's that for constructive feedback?

Here's the thing: it doesn't work right now. It's so trivialized that tanking involves, for leaderboard scores, simply dumping as much tankiness as humanly possible while still slotting a taunt and just enough to live through a hit, to pump your damage up . That's not what tanking is . It most definitely is broken, right now. The stamina regen ticks being gone while blocking will help a little but it's a long ways off from actually fixing it. I was surprised, frankly, to hear so many complaints about the idea because the good tanks I always have spoken with, and the tanking I've done, never relied on just holding that key down .

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Besides, all abilities, regardless their cost, can be block cast as long as they are instantly cast.

Partial heavy/Light attacks can't be for your ult gen . That's another thing you already shouldn't be holding down block because of.

DDuke wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't have the gear for that

This is my shocked face. I love how you first phrased it "I won't be able to solo anymore". lol

DDuke wrote: »

but it is doable (and I know many who have done it)

Awesome. Can you please post a link to someone else soloing a vet dungeon to completion? Thanks.

You can even tank mantikora in this game by roll dodging his slow attacks (common knowledge to anyone in a top PvE guild). Luckily, he has an enrage mechanic so you aren't able to solo him...

Yep... I was researching how hard he hits with his attacks because the swing timer is extremely slow and after surveying some top-notch tanks learned that the block change will have zero impact to them. That's one of the encounters in particular I was hearing complaints about how "difficult" it would be.

I then killed the Serpent's Image down below with just a light armor sorc alongside me (light armor dragon knight DPS) just by using dodge rolls and positioning while he streaked to avoid dying and we both burned it due to happenstance on a less-organized run.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Soriana wrote: »

Ummm, the gentleman you are calling stupid is one of our community ambassadors. You are more than welcome to disagree with him but how about doing it with a little professionalism or respect?

Congrats. So, because you were able to kill Bogdan all by yourself, someone else opinion is invalidated? I, as a tank, saved our entire group from wiping in nDSA when everyone else went down. Does that make DPS obsolete?

*sigh*

(Digs up picture...)


@Soriana.

Avenias wrote:

Ya its funny because of all the vet dungeons, he had to quote the easiest one.

The Manti isn't in a veteran dungeon, @Avenias.

LOL that says it all... Aven rudely slams a very helpful guy that's been around the block trying to mislead by saying the Mantikhora is a vet dungeon mob... classic.

DDuke wrote: »

Avenias wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

How about making some constructive feedback instead (for once), rather than crying about something you have never even tested?

In case this solution to permablock brings more problems with it (still remains to be seen), how would you:

• Make resource management really matter for a tank, especially in boss fights?
• Encourage people not to taunt every mob in the room, reducing the role of dps to most basic "hack&slash"?
• Encourage people to CC dangerous trash mobs, rather than having them tanked?

Awaiting your constructive feedback.*

*Calling for upcoming balance changes to be dismantled because you feel they wont work well isn't exactly what can be considered constructive criticism. In fact, it falls under the definition of destructive criticism.

This assumes we accept the premise that the change is necessary to begin with.

You sound like a politician.

It's okay to simply be the voice of "NO" when the idea is a bad one. No alternative need be supplied if all parties are not in agreement that there is a problem to begin with.

I think I'm on solid group when I tell you a great many of us reject your basic premise.

As for constructive criticism, I would like to suggest they leave it exactly the way it is for PvE and do whatever the heck they want to PvP because PvP is a mess and probably always will be. If not perma-blocking it will be some other nonsensical flavor of the month OP build that everyone not running it just shakes their heads at.

So, lets not break what works. How's that for constructive feedback?

And you are assuming that this breaks something.

What if they're trying to improve the tanking (and subsequently whole PvE aspect) of the game by making this change?

Oh, but of course you know better than the professional game designers do how this change (along with other changes) will affect game balance, who am I kidding.


Game is not perfect and it can always be improved. In my opinion, this can very well improve it (see the list I made above and remove question marks).

In fact, I wish they'd go even further and added another iconic MMO element to tanking: threat management (not just taunt every x seconds). But that is another topic.

You dont need to be a professional game designer to know if something is a bad design. Thats like saying oh i dont know if global warming exists because i am not a scientist.

So either you know better than these game designers (without even testing it), or they're intentionally making bad designs.
I hope I don't need to point out what is wrong with your statement.

Azurulia wrote: »

Avenias wrote: »

<snip>

You dont need to be a professional game designer to know if something is a bad design. Thats like saying oh i dont know if global warming exists because i am not a scientist.

I said something along those lines in another thread in regards to bad ideas. Great minds think alike.

Here's the full version of that quote:

Great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ

I love how he omitted the end of the quote to try to sound good. Flavor of the month is usually miles behind and in this case it became flavor of the month even tho it never was good ! @DDuke for the win.

The only thing that makes tanking easy has nothing to do with blocking. It is the absurd dps that people are doing with the uncapped stats. Try tanking stuff with bad dps and see how much harder it is.

grimsfield wrote: »

Things like this are why I've pretty much quit this game. Absolutely no forethought here by the designers. Just bad. Just as bad as having a lag time on casts for breath of life. Ridiculous.

This game might finally be getting a patch after a year without one, but these bad decisions by the designers are bound to keep coming.

Hey Grim, thanks for stopping by.

Did you know that the best tanks in the game aren't holding block and never have?

Did you know that people who have little experience tanking and think that tanks need to use light attacks to generate their ultimate are all for this change? Their commentary really speaks for itself.

Halfwitte wrote: »

Nerf Healers all they do is cast healing springs and breath of life. All they do is use 2 buttons like tanks using just taunt and block. If they're not a templar it's just ONE BUTTON! UNBELIEVABLE! This is terribly boring! Any healer that can keep a whole party up during a vdsa fight and tank one of the adds is doing it wrong its all broken we need this fixed immediately there is no challenge involved because all they do is heal! How did we not realize this until now and why did we allow it to continue for so long.

We need to nerf magicka regen while healing so healing will become more reactive and balanced and fun. Make the regen ticks every 10 seconds instead of 2 so that healers only heal when absolutely neccessary and quadruple the cost of each spell so they can only focus on magicka resource management. No worries I'm sure every group will bring 2 Templars on Vet Dungeon runs so the healer can pick up Shards! Lets hope they have the right morph. This will also increase Templar popularity. Make the enemies hit harder so they can change it up a little, do some reviving too instead of just healing. NO WORRIES THE REALLY GOOD HEALERS WILL JUST ADAPT or play DPS.

This is a phenomenal change for the good of everyone, so don't knock it IT MUST BE TESTED FIRST IN ORDER TO FULLY UNDERSTAND IT'S GREATNESS!!!!! DISCLOSURE: There are no new mystery or unreleased mechanics that will make this change better in any way. Developers are all knowing and require no feedback on this change so this thread will be locked following the conclusion of this post.

Enjoy Citizens of Tamriel THIS IS FUN or at least the embodiment of our philosophy on it. Now pour yourself a mug of mead you're going to need it.

PS: This change is being brought about due to complaints of difficulty arising from Glass canons attempting to kill perma healers in PVP.

This post makes me sad i cant "insightful", "awesome" and "agree" at the same time

Avenias wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Halfwitte wrote: »

Nerf Healers all they do is cast healing springs and breath of life. All they do is use 2 buttons like tanks using just taunt and block. If they're not a templar it's just ONE BUTTON! UNBELIEVABLE! This is terribly boring! Any healer that can keep a whole party up during a vdsa fight and tank one of the adds is doing it wrong its all broken we need this fixed immediately there is no challenge involved because all they do is heal! How did we not realize this until now and why did we allow it to continue for so long.

We need to nerf magicka regen while healing so healing will become more reactive and balanced and fun. Make the regen ticks every 10 seconds instead of 2 so that healers only heal when absolutely neccessary and quadruple the cost of each spell so they can only focus on magicka resource management. No worries I'm sure every group will bring 2 Templars on Vet Dungeon runs so the healer can pick up Shards! Lets hope they have the right morph. This will also increase Templar popularity. Make the enemies hit harder so they can change it up a little, do some reviving too instead of just healing. NO WORRIES THE REALLY GOOD HEALERS WILL JUST ADAPT or play DPS.

This is a phenomenal change for the good of everyone, so don't knock it IT MUST BE TESTED FIRST IN ORDER TO FULLY UNDERSTAND IT'S GREATNESS!!!!! DISCLOSURE: There are no new mystery or unreleased mechanics that will make this change better in any way. Developers are all knowing and require no feedback on this change so this thread will be locked following the conclusion of this post.

Enjoy Citizens of Tamriel THIS IS FUN or at least the embodiment of our philosophy on it. Now pour yourself a mug of mead you're going to need it.

PS: This change is being brought about due to complaints of difficulty arising from Glass canons attempting to kill perma healers in PVP.

This post makes me sad i cant "insightful", "awesome" and "agree" at the same time

I cant agree more, its always the pvp players whining of loosing then make the pve players pay the price.

That might be a valid argument in some games, but not ESO, where none of the nerfs have been specifically aimed at PVP and affected PVE negatively. This particular one is really aimed squarely at both with a focus more towards PVE, since the meta in PVE simply became even more of the same as it was pre-1.6 more recently of tanking being too trivial to be a specialization focus for a character in trials and vDSA. PVP'ers other than newer players rarely ever complained about blocking issues, that's for sure.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@DDuke

I almost forgot that grimsfield is a bonafide video game developer. What is your new argument now that a game developer has stepped in the room?

Would you care to present your argument clearly in the first place? @Dduke has presented his well . I'm still confused as to yours, however, as you've bounced between saying how horrible the block tweak for PVE and PVP will be because of how hard it'll make it from needing to tape down the block key in PVE but then not having stam regen, and saying it wont impact you and you're just "looking out for other tanks" (paraphrasing) that don't have any issue on either end. I happen to actually have been in that market sector you're awestruck at and jumping back into it currently ("bonafide developer") myself, but it's irrelevant in the context of a discussion of ESO's tanking balance . There's nothing to be concerned about on this change: it will bring a scrap higher (and direly needed) amount of difficulty but is only the first step on the road to making tanking a non-trivial activity and one that's fun.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

grimsfield wrote: »

Things like this are why I've pretty much quit this game. Absolutely no forethought here by the designers. Just bad. Just as bad as having a lag time on casts for breath of life. Ridiculous.

This game might finally be getting a patch after a year without one, but these bad decisions by the designers are bound to keep coming.

Hey Grim, thanks for stopping by.

Did you know that the best tanks in the game aren't holding block and never have?

Did you know that people who have little experience tanking and think that tanks need to use light attacks to generate their ultimate are all for this change? Their commentary really speaks for itself.

Unless you're healing your group to get ult, which isn't the role of a tank to be doing and means you find tanking easy enough to go hybrid (contradicting your own argument in the first place), you need to light or heavy attack to generate proper ultimate without losing large amounts of the possible generation you should be getting. You do get it for blocking, too, but that won't keep it full-time in many cases . These things are so basic that I felt someone describing themselves as an experienced tank would already have known them without having spelled it out. I apologize for having taken your word for it as you clearly did not.

Platitudes and rhetorical questions are all well and fun but the results speak for themselves: you're sitting around complaining that tanking will be too hard because you depend on a poor method of tanking that while able to pass for now, won't be able to from what you yourself have said/complained about, as of next patch. Meanwhile, the groups in PVE that sit at the top of the leaderboards mostly are indifferent, with a single digit handful of various people concerned that it may make it less fun even though still perfectly doable. Speak to anyone in-game that's a high tier player and they will most likely laugh if you suggest just holding down block in PVP or holding down block full-time during AOE pulls in PVE . It's not only an inefficient strategy, but a good way to slow down your raid in PVE or flop over dead in Cyrodiil.

I explained why, at least, that your feedback really isn't applicable to the vast majority of players that aren't new or only really tanking pledges (which don't require tanks, even, just one person with a taunt.... and yes, that includes vCOA which I just tank in my light armor DPS build by adding a taunt and then swapping one AOE for another (usually I change Elemental Ring out to toss in Volatile Armor since it also gives the armor/spell resist buff and damage reflect). For vDSA/Trials the meta is slanted horrendously towards dropping as much tanking as possible to max out your damage, due to the same root issue: tanking is far, far too easy between stam regen, huge block mitigation, the simplistic taunting system for agro management, and the low swing speed/special timers on most aoe trash and bosses.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Did you know that the best tanks in the game aren't holding block and never have?

Not sure if serious.

olemanwinter wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Did you know that the best tanks in the game aren't holding block and never have?

Not sure if serious.

That's what I can't believe, amongst other things, about what attorneyatlawl is saying. They claim to speak to good tanks in the game. They claim to tank. Then they claim that tanks have a compelling reason to use light attacks(they don't). It really is bizarre that they want to be pro-nerf with regards to part of the game that they clearly don't know much about as they mischaracterized something as simple as ultimate generation while tanking. It is also strange that the top tanks I know (current NA 1 in SO and top 5 in VDSA) continuously hold down block against bosses and on big pulls, but attorneyatlawl has spoken the only true, real, and good way that tanks should play and enjoy playing.

First pro-nerfers say all players are doing is holding block and then they say that players have never continuously held block. First it is that the PVE meta is boring and then it is that tanks are evolving their role, but just in ways that they don't like.

The pro-nerfers just can't make up their minds about what their discussion points are and why what they want is preferable compared to what others want.

Hopefully i will have some interviews in the next couple of days about what the best tanks in the game are doing and why they are doing it.