Personofsecrets wrote: »I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.Attorneyatlawl wrote: »I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.
This. Time your blocks rather than tape down the key. Also confirmed with some tanks that run regularly that the Manti's autoattacks are indeed very slow on the swing timers and only will hit a proper tank build for 8-9k... it's just the specials (also a low swing speed) that hurt if you miss blocking, and those are as well-telegraphed as they look. Just like in PVP you should only be blocking selectively/timing when, anyways... that just shifts it to PVE as well. I think it's a fix, frankly, for both just as much as eachother.
There is going to be very little strategic about what is to come.
As has been written about many times. Stamina regeneration ticks occur every 2 seconds and enemy attacks occur all at different rates. That is especially so when multiple enemies are queing up different kinds of attacks against the tank.
Unblocking for the chance of getting a stamina regeneration tick during the small opportunity that it occurs while at the same time there is no incoming attack has nothing to do with strategy and everything to do with wild chance.
Personofsecrets wrote: »Guys/Girls calm down. We will have to wait and see what skillchanges are being intruduced with the new blocking system.
U cant use the current game to say that it wont work. I dont think it will be a problem against hard hitting solo bosses like in trials. The Axes in AA were never a problem with low stam reg and i tell the Templars always that they can place there spears where they want to cause i dont need em. U just need to manage your ressources and the biggest impact this change will have for me is in vdsa, but only if i run with a low dps grp.
Next week we will have the chance to test this and as always, there will be a solution for every class to handle their Stam Management.
For the umpteenth time.
"We don't know if the new change to ping-pong, where players have to play with sponges rather than their traditional paddles is going to be really that bad. Who has tested if it is bad? Nobody. Plus there are a bunch of other changes that are happening which could make playing with sponges work a-okay! "
As I have also wrote time and time again. Tanking is currently about resource management. You can find my references to that in my signature links "keeping all resources balanced is the biggest job of the tank."
mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.Attorneyatlawl wrote: »I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.
This. Time your blocks rather than tape down the key. Also confirmed with some tanks that run regularly that the Manti's autoattacks are indeed very slow on the swing timers and only will hit a proper tank build for 8-9k... it's just the specials (also a low swing speed) that hurt if you miss blocking, and those are as well-telegraphed as they look. Just like in PVP you should only be blocking selectively/timing when, anyways... that just shifts it to PVE as well. I think it's a fix, frankly, for both just as much as eachother.
There is going to be very little strategic about what is to come.
As has been written about many times. Stamina regeneration ticks occur every 2 seconds and enemy attacks occur all at different rates. That is especially so when multiple enemies are queing up different kinds of attacks against the tank.
Unblocking for the chance of getting a stamina regeneration tick during the small opportunity that it occurs while at the same time there is no incoming attack has nothing to do with strategy and everything to do with wild chance.
A simple fix the regen ticks is to simply have holding block PAUSE the timer instead of stopping it (such a fix could also be applied to moving in stealth). If that isn't implemented WITH 1.7 I'd expect it to be shortly thereafter.Personofsecrets wrote: »Guys/Girls calm down. We will have to wait and see what skillchanges are being intruduced with the new blocking system.
U cant use the current game to say that it wont work. I dont think it will be a problem against hard hitting solo bosses like in trials. The Axes in AA were never a problem with low stam reg and i tell the Templars always that they can place there spears where they want to cause i dont need em. U just need to manage your ressources and the biggest impact this change will have for me is in vdsa, but only if i run with a low dps grp.
Next week we will have the chance to test this and as always, there will be a solution for every class to handle their Stam Management.
For the umpteenth time.
"We don't know if the new change to ping-pong, where players have to play with sponges rather than their traditional paddles is going to be really that bad. Who has tested if it is bad? Nobody. Plus there are a bunch of other changes that are happening which could make playing with sponges work a-okay! "
As I have also wrote time and time again. Tanking is currently about resource management. You can find my references to that in my signature links "keeping all resources balanced is the biggest job of the tank."
I hate the ping pong analogy, the ping pong analogy might be accurate if say they removed the damage reduction from blocking or something extreme like that, instead they're making blocking consume in the worst case scenario, 600 more stamina per second. (that means after 40 whole seconds of blocking stuff that currently leaves your stamina bar static you'll run dry. (Time for a potion and 2 templar spears.)
Also they're going to be increasing the ways to stamina manage and probably aiming for an extreme case being able to bring an extra 600 stam per second to the table (for a net change of nothing from live) YAYY.
]
I'll no longer be able to solo vet dungeons either by rolling around, boo hoo...
I don't really care, because that's a good thing.
it also should make PvE more interesting for tanks
it also should make PvE more interesting for tanks
Independent of the discussed change in this thread, a lot more is required for making a tank interesting ...
The whole ESO design is not really tank friendly because its main focus are hybrid mechanics.
With this background its not really fun to play a tank in ESO for a reason.
Personofsecrets wrote: »mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.Attorneyatlawl wrote: »I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.
This. Time your blocks rather than tape down the key. Also confirmed with some tanks that run regularly that the Manti's autoattacks are indeed very slow on the swing timers and only will hit a proper tank build for 8-9k... it's just the specials (also a low swing speed) that hurt if you miss blocking, and those are as well-telegraphed as they look. Just like in PVP you should only be blocking selectively/timing when, anyways... that just shifts it to PVE as well. I think it's a fix, frankly, for both just as much as eachother.
There is going to be very little strategic about what is to come.
As has been written about many times. Stamina regeneration ticks occur every 2 seconds and enemy attacks occur all at different rates. That is especially so when multiple enemies are queing up different kinds of attacks against the tank.
Unblocking for the chance of getting a stamina regeneration tick during the small opportunity that it occurs while at the same time there is no incoming attack has nothing to do with strategy and everything to do with wild chance.
A simple fix the regen ticks is to simply have holding block PAUSE the timer instead of stopping it (such a fix could also be applied to moving in stealth). If that isn't implemented WITH 1.7 I'd expect it to be shortly thereafter.Personofsecrets wrote: »Guys/Girls calm down. We will have to wait and see what skillchanges are being intruduced with the new blocking system.
U cant use the current game to say that it wont work. I dont think it will be a problem against hard hitting solo bosses like in trials. The Axes in AA were never a problem with low stam reg and i tell the Templars always that they can place there spears where they want to cause i dont need em. U just need to manage your ressources and the biggest impact this change will have for me is in vdsa, but only if i run with a low dps grp.
Next week we will have the chance to test this and as always, there will be a solution for every class to handle their Stam Management.
For the umpteenth time.
"We don't know if the new change to ping-pong, where players have to play with sponges rather than their traditional paddles is going to be really that bad. Who has tested if it is bad? Nobody. Plus there are a bunch of other changes that are happening which could make playing with sponges work a-okay! "
As I have also wrote time and time again. Tanking is currently about resource management. You can find my references to that in my signature links "keeping all resources balanced is the biggest job of the tank."
I hate the ping pong analogy, the ping pong analogy might be accurate if say they removed the damage reduction from blocking or something extreme like that, instead they're making blocking consume in the worst case scenario, 600 more stamina per second. (that means after 40 whole seconds of blocking stuff that currently leaves your stamina bar static you'll run dry. (Time for a potion and 2 templar spears.)
Also they're going to be increasing the ways to stamina manage and probably aiming for an extreme case being able to bring an extra 600 stam per second to the table (for a net change of nothing from live) YAYY.
Thank you mousekime for the thoughtful reply.
An easier fix to this change is to not implement it in the first place. It is odd to me that we have to even discuss how broken the mechanic could be. I expect it to have been tested about as much as extended chains and, even worse, silver leash was tested going into 1.6.
As far as the ping pong analogy, the reason it works is because the stamina regeneration change is extreme. I think you a greatly shoehorning tanks into a specific builds or ways of playing by assuming how long it will take the to run out of stamina while blocking. By the way, 600 stamina/second is about how much stamina a tank loses while on the final boss of AA hardmode with full block cost reduction. What you are indicating is that all fights in the game are going to be as stamina intensive as the current most stamina intensive fight is. Again, that is certainly extreme. You are not in tune with tanking at a high level. Rolling, pierce armor, deep slash, bash, and blocking all cost stamina. It is rare to have full stamina as a tank and it is easy to run out when not actively working to keep it balanced.
Personofsecrets wrote: »
it also should make PvE more interesting for tanks
Independent of the discussed change in this thread, a lot more is required for making a tank interesting ...
The whole ESO design is not really tank friendly because its main focus are hybrid mechanics.
With this background its not really fun to play a tank in ESO for a reason.
Tanking is what players make it.
Personofsecrets wrote: »
it also should make PvE more interesting for tanks
Independent of the discussed change in this thread, a lot more is required for making a tank interesting ...
The whole ESO design is not really tank friendly because its main focus are hybrid mechanics.
With this background its not really fun to play a tank in ESO for a reason.
Tanking is what players make it.
First you need a system that really requires a tank. Not the case in ESO.
mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.Attorneyatlawl wrote: »I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.
This. Time your blocks rather than tape down the key. Also confirmed with some tanks that run regularly that the Manti's autoattacks are indeed very slow on the swing timers and only will hit a proper tank build for 8-9k... it's just the specials (also a low swing speed) that hurt if you miss blocking, and those are as well-telegraphed as they look. Just like in PVP you should only be blocking selectively/timing when, anyways... that just shifts it to PVE as well. I think it's a fix, frankly, for both just as much as eachother.
There is going to be very little strategic about what is to come.
As has been written about many times. Stamina regeneration ticks occur every 2 seconds and enemy attacks occur all at different rates. That is especially so when multiple enemies are queing up different kinds of attacks against the tank.
Unblocking for the chance of getting a stamina regeneration tick during the small opportunity that it occurs while at the same time there is no incoming attack has nothing to do with strategy and everything to do with wild chance.
A simple fix the regen ticks is to simply have holding block PAUSE the timer instead of stopping it (such a fix could also be applied to moving in stealth). If that isn't implemented WITH 1.7 I'd expect it to be shortly thereafter.Personofsecrets wrote: »Guys/Girls calm down. We will have to wait and see what skillchanges are being intruduced with the new blocking system.
U cant use the current game to say that it wont work. I dont think it will be a problem against hard hitting solo bosses like in trials. The Axes in AA were never a problem with low stam reg and i tell the Templars always that they can place there spears where they want to cause i dont need em. U just need to manage your ressources and the biggest impact this change will have for me is in vdsa, but only if i run with a low dps grp.
Next week we will have the chance to test this and as always, there will be a solution for every class to handle their Stam Management.
For the umpteenth time.
"We don't know if the new change to ping-pong, where players have to play with sponges rather than their traditional paddles is going to be really that bad. Who has tested if it is bad? Nobody. Plus there are a bunch of other changes that are happening which could make playing with sponges work a-okay! "
As I have also wrote time and time again. Tanking is currently about resource management. You can find my references to that in my signature links "keeping all resources balanced is the biggest job of the tank."
I hate the ping pong analogy, the ping pong analogy might be accurate if say they removed the damage reduction from blocking or something extreme like that, instead they're making blocking consume in the worst case scenario, 600 more stamina per second. (that means after 40 whole seconds of blocking stuff that currently leaves your stamina bar static you'll run dry. (Time for a potion and 2 templar spears.)
Also they're going to be increasing the ways to stamina manage and probably aiming for an extreme case being able to bring an extra 600 stam per second to the table (for a net change of nothing from live) YAYY.
Thank you mousekime for the thoughtful reply.
An easier fix to this change is to not implement it in the first place. It is odd to me that we have to even discuss how broken the mechanic could be. I expect it to have been tested about as much as extended chains and, even worse, silver leash was tested going into 1.6.
As far as the ping pong analogy, the reason it works is because the stamina regeneration change is extreme. I think you a greatly shoehorning tanks into a specific builds or ways of playing by assuming how long it will take the to run out of stamina while blocking. By the way, 600 stamina/second is about how much stamina a tank loses while on the final boss of AA hardmode with full block cost reduction. What you are indicating is that all fights in the game are going to be as stamina intensive as the current most stamina intensive fight is. Again, that is certainly extreme. You are not in tune with tanking at a high level. Rolling, pierce armor, deep slash, bash, and blocking all cost stamina. It is rare to have full stamina as a tank and it is easy to run out when not actively working to keep it balanced.
Fair point, though from my experience (as a stamina nightblade tank running siphoning attacks) it is quite possible to stay maxed on stamina even, say tanking 2 axes (I need shards on 3 - potions and shards on 4). I figure that at the very least dragonknights and nightblades should be able to compensate for this change in their current state. (Like I said, siphoning attacks + a massive stam pool makes tanking a breeze - and magma armour allows free heavy attack spam ONTOP OF giving a chunk of stamina back on the initial cast (is also going to give more stamina back to staminacentric dk tanks next patch no less) )
Mind you 450-600 stamina per second could be hard to compensate for for a lot of players. I know for a fact it'll certainly knock out some more magicka oriented or hybrid styles of tanking but it certainly should be doable. I mean maybe it'll come to running two axe tanks for AA, maybe it'll come down to letting your dps and healer take some light load aggro. Maybe it'll come down to wide-range buffs to abilities that help sustain stamina, maybe they'll change the stam regen buff from 20% increase to stam regen to 'regenerate x stamina per second) to bypass this change directly. Maybe it'll come down to content that was once exclusive (I couldn't do vdsa pre1.6 for example) to be exclusive again.
Do content that matches your skill level in a group at said same skill level, without a tank.
(PS I listed 7 things that require a tank, not just one you dolt)
Personofsecrets wrote: »
it also should make PvE more interesting for tanks
Independent of the discussed change in this thread, a lot more is required for making a tank interesting ...
The whole ESO design is not really tank friendly because its main focus are hybrid mechanics.
With this background its not really fun to play a tank in ESO for a reason.
Tanking is what players make it.
First you need a system that really requires a tank. Not the case in ESO.
Personofsecrets wrote: »mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.Attorneyatlawl wrote: »I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.
This. Time your blocks rather than tape down the key. Also confirmed with some tanks that run regularly that the Manti's autoattacks are indeed very slow on the swing timers and only will hit a proper tank build for 8-9k... it's just the specials (also a low swing speed) that hurt if you miss blocking, and those are as well-telegraphed as they look. Just like in PVP you should only be blocking selectively/timing when, anyways... that just shifts it to PVE as well. I think it's a fix, frankly, for both just as much as eachother.
There is going to be very little strategic about what is to come.
As has been written about many times. Stamina regeneration ticks occur every 2 seconds and enemy attacks occur all at different rates. That is especially so when multiple enemies are queing up different kinds of attacks against the tank.
Unblocking for the chance of getting a stamina regeneration tick during the small opportunity that it occurs while at the same time there is no incoming attack has nothing to do with strategy and everything to do with wild chance.
A simple fix the regen ticks is to simply have holding block PAUSE the timer instead of stopping it (such a fix could also be applied to moving in stealth). If that isn't implemented WITH 1.7 I'd expect it to be shortly thereafter.Personofsecrets wrote: »Guys/Girls calm down. We will have to wait and see what skillchanges are being intruduced with the new blocking system.
U cant use the current game to say that it wont work. I dont think it will be a problem against hard hitting solo bosses like in trials. The Axes in AA were never a problem with low stam reg and i tell the Templars always that they can place there spears where they want to cause i dont need em. U just need to manage your ressources and the biggest impact this change will have for me is in vdsa, but only if i run with a low dps grp.
Next week we will have the chance to test this and as always, there will be a solution for every class to handle their Stam Management.
For the umpteenth time.
"We don't know if the new change to ping-pong, where players have to play with sponges rather than their traditional paddles is going to be really that bad. Who has tested if it is bad? Nobody. Plus there are a bunch of other changes that are happening which could make playing with sponges work a-okay! "
As I have also wrote time and time again. Tanking is currently about resource management. You can find my references to that in my signature links "keeping all resources balanced is the biggest job of the tank."
I hate the ping pong analogy, the ping pong analogy might be accurate if say they removed the damage reduction from blocking or something extreme like that, instead they're making blocking consume in the worst case scenario, 600 more stamina per second. (that means after 40 whole seconds of blocking stuff that currently leaves your stamina bar static you'll run dry. (Time for a potion and 2 templar spears.)
Also they're going to be increasing the ways to stamina manage and probably aiming for an extreme case being able to bring an extra 600 stam per second to the table (for a net change of nothing from live) YAYY.
Thank you mousekime for the thoughtful reply.
An easier fix to this change is to not implement it in the first place. It is odd to me that we have to even discuss how broken the mechanic could be. I expect it to have been tested about as much as extended chains and, even worse, silver leash was tested going into 1.6.
As far as the ping pong analogy, the reason it works is because the stamina regeneration change is extreme. I think you a greatly shoehorning tanks into a specific builds or ways of playing by assuming how long it will take the to run out of stamina while blocking. By the way, 600 stamina/second is about how much stamina a tank loses while on the final boss of AA hardmode with full block cost reduction. What you are indicating is that all fights in the game are going to be as stamina intensive as the current most stamina intensive fight is. Again, that is certainly extreme. You are not in tune with tanking at a high level. Rolling, pierce armor, deep slash, bash, and blocking all cost stamina. It is rare to have full stamina as a tank and it is easy to run out when not actively working to keep it balanced.
Fair point, though from my experience (as a stamina nightblade tank running siphoning attacks) it is quite possible to stay maxed on stamina even, say tanking 2 axes (I need shards on 3 - potions and shards on 4). I figure that at the very least dragonknights and nightblades should be able to compensate for this change in their current state. (Like I said, siphoning attacks + a massive stam pool makes tanking a breeze - and magma armour allows free heavy attack spam ONTOP OF giving a chunk of stamina back on the initial cast (is also going to give more stamina back to staminacentric dk tanks next patch no less) )
Mind you 450-600 stamina per second could be hard to compensate for for a lot of players. I know for a fact it'll certainly knock out some more magicka oriented or hybrid styles of tanking but it certainly should be doable. I mean maybe it'll come to running two axe tanks for AA, maybe it'll come down to letting your dps and healer take some light load aggro. Maybe it'll come down to wide-range buffs to abilities that help sustain stamina, maybe they'll change the stam regen buff from 20% increase to stam regen to 'regenerate x stamina per second) to bypass this change directly. Maybe it'll come down to content that was once exclusive (I couldn't do vdsa pre1.6 for example) to be exclusive again.
Hey again Mousekime,
Thank you for pointing out all of the ways that players may be able to get stamina back. Nightblade will be an interesting choice. My current solution for the AA fight, if you can call it a solution, is eternal yokeda.
1. Taunt axes and atronarch and hold block until stamina runs out.
2. potion, and hold block until stamina runs out.
3. molten armor and dont hold block through its duration.
4. hold block until stamina is out and eventually die for the eternal yokeda bonus.
5. molten armor and dont hold block through its duration.
6. hold block until stamina is out and hope the fight is over and not have to be completed again for another 20 minutes.
Again, that is only a solution in name. In spirit I think such a strategy is very unintuitive and destructive towards most of what tanks have been working on for ages (keeping resources balanced).
Personofsecrets wrote: »Just curious @mousekime111rwb17_ESO , for what reason do you attribute not being able to complete vdsa in 1.5?
Do content that matches your skill level in a group at said same skill level, without a tank.
(PS I listed 7 things that require a tank, not just one you dolt)
You can turn words around or being immature with any kind of offence as long as you want, I stick with my opinion that ESO doesn't have a good tanking concept and mechanics, there is lot room for improvement.
Personofsecrets wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »
it also should make PvE more interesting for tanks
Independent of the discussed change in this thread, a lot more is required for making a tank interesting ...
The whole ESO design is not really tank friendly because its main focus are hybrid mechanics.
With this background its not really fun to play a tank in ESO for a reason.
Tanking is what players make it.
First you need a system that really requires a tank. Not the case in ESO.
You mean a system with lower DPS.
Personofsecrets wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »
it also should make PvE more interesting for tanks
Independent of the discussed change in this thread, a lot more is required for making a tank interesting ...
The whole ESO design is not really tank friendly because its main focus are hybrid mechanics.
With this background its not really fun to play a tank in ESO for a reason.
Tanking is what players make it.
First you need a system that really requires a tank. Not the case in ESO.
You mean a system with lower DPS.
I mean what I said!
ESO doesn't have a good tanking concept and mechanics, the class architecture is focussing a hybrid system to mainly support solo game play and casual mass. Choosing a specific role or "hardcore" raiding is not really the case in ESO because ZOS is adressing a totally different target group.
Thats why tanks or trinity system in general are poorly designed and imo not good enough for a modern game with raid support.
Personofsecrets wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »
it also should make PvE more interesting for tanks
Independent of the discussed change in this thread, a lot more is required for making a tank interesting ...
The whole ESO design is not really tank friendly because its main focus are hybrid mechanics.
With this background its not really fun to play a tank in ESO for a reason.
Tanking is what players make it.
First you need a system that really requires a tank. Not the case in ESO.
You mean a system with lower DPS.
I mean what I said!
ESO doesn't have a good tanking concept and mechanics, the class architecture is focussing a hybrid system to mainly support solo game play and casual mass. Choosing a specific role or "hardcore" raiding is not really the case in ESO because ZOS is adressing a totally different target group.
Thats why tanks or trinity system in general are poorly designed and imo not good enough for a modern game with raid support.
I have an idea how to make tanking even worse in ESO-
Each time you want to block you will have to enter a CAPTCHA! So whenever you press the "Block" button, you will have to type something like "IKU54Q".
Personofsecrets wrote: »]
I'll no longer be able to solo vet dungeons either by rolling around, boo hoo...
I don't really care, because that's a good thing.
I invite everyone to go through most of DDuke's comments in this thread where DDuke makes the important point that players are just whining.
That is really a great insight that DDuke has contributed to this thread time and time again. I think he is really spot on, certainly not ignoring anything important that anyone else has said, and I appreciate that commentary because calling players whiners isn't a commentary that is common on the forums, but it certainly does get a great point across.
Really DDuke? You are soloing veteran dungeons by rolling around? Wow, you must be a really good player to be able to perform such a feet. You totally don't have a PVP bias when confronting the ways that players enjoy PVE. Being able to master such mechanics and content along with being able justify unrelated nerfs to your exploits takes a very astute, well trained, mind. If anything, you shouldn't be commenting here, you should be giving your feedback directly to the developers. Actually, you should be sending them your resume as they could clearly use a talent such as yours in the designing of this game.
Personofsecrets wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »
it also should make PvE more interesting for tanks
Independent of the discussed change in this thread, a lot more is required for making a tank interesting ...
The whole ESO design is not really tank friendly because its main focus are hybrid mechanics.
With this background its not really fun to play a tank in ESO for a reason.
Tanking is what players make it.
First you need a system that really requires a tank. Not the case in ESO.
You mean a system with lower DPS.
I mean what I said!
ESO doesn't have a good tanking concept and mechanics, the class architecture is focussing a hybrid system to mainly support solo game play and casual mass. Choosing a specific role or "hardcore" raiding is not really the case in ESO because ZOS is adressing a totally different target group.
Thats why tanks or trinity system in general are poorly designed and imo not good enough for a modern game with raid support.
Let's discuss your ideas a little bit.
In my mind tanks currently do the following things.
1. Aggro sink
2. Damage sink
3. Major DPS through debuffing enemy armor
4. Major virtual healing through debuffing enemy damage
5. Crowed control such as snares and roots
6. Fringe benefits of utilizing powerful abilities that DPS players don't have room to use such as Rapid Maneuver and Extended Chains.
In your mind, in your ideal game, what should tanks be doing?
olemanwinter wrote: »
I don't have the gear for that
but it is doable (and I know many who have done it)