Personofsecrets wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.

This. Time your blocks rather than tape down the key. Also confirmed with some tanks that run regularly that the Manti's autoattacks are indeed very slow on the swing timers and only will hit a proper tank build for 8-9k... it's just the specials (also a low swing speed) that hurt if you miss blocking, and those are as well-telegraphed as they look . Just like in PVP you should only be blocking selectively/timing when, anyways... that just shifts it to PVE as well. I think it's a fix, frankly, for both just as much as eachother.

There is going to be very little strategic about what is to come.

As has been written about many times. Stamina regeneration ticks occur every 2 seconds and enemy attacks occur all at different rates. That is especially so when multiple enemies are queing up different kinds of attacks against the tank.

Unblocking for the chance of getting a stamina regeneration tick during the small opportunity that it occurs while at the same time there is no incoming attack has nothing to do with strategy and everything to do with wild chance.

A simple fix the regen ticks is to simply have holding block PAUSE the timer instead of stopping it (such a fix could also be applied to moving in stealth). If that isn't implemented WITH 1.7 I'd expect it to be shortly thereafter.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Guys/Girls calm down. We will have to wait and see what skillchanges are being intruduced with the new blocking system.
U cant use the current game to say that it wont work. I dont think it will be a problem against hard hitting solo bosses like in trials. The Axes in AA were never a problem with low stam reg and i tell the Templars always that they can place there spears where they want to cause i dont need em. U just need to manage your ressources and the biggest impact this change will have for me is in vdsa, but only if i run with a low dps grp.

Next week we will have the chance to test this and as always, there will be a solution for every class to handle their Stam Management .

For the umpteenth time.

"We don't know if the new change to ping-pong, where players have to play with sponges rather than their traditional paddles is going to be really that bad. Who has tested if it is bad? Nobody. Plus there are a bunch of other changes that are happening which could make playing with sponges work a-okay! "

As I have also wrote time and time again. Tanking is currently about resource management. You can find my references to that in my signature links "keeping all resources balanced is the biggest job of the tank."

I hate the ping pong analogy, the ping pong analogy might be accurate if say they removed the damage reduction from blocking or something extreme like that, instead they're making blocking consume in the worst case scenario, 600 more stamina per second. (that means after 40 whole seconds of blocking stuff that currently leaves your stamina bar static you'll run dry. (Time for a potion and 2 templar spears.)

Also they're going to be increasing the ways to stamina manage and probably aiming for an extreme case being able to bring an extra 600 stam per second to the table (for a net change of nothing from live) YAYY.

DDuke wrote: »

it also should make PvE more interesting for tanks

Independent of the discussed change in this thread, a lot more is required for making a tank interesting ...

The whole ESO design is not really tank friendly because its main focus are hybrid mechanics.
With this background its not really fun to play a tank in ESO for a reason.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.

This. Time your blocks rather than tape down the key. Also confirmed with some tanks that run regularly that the Manti's autoattacks are indeed very slow on the swing timers and only will hit a proper tank build for 8-9k... it's just the specials (also a low swing speed) that hurt if you miss blocking, and those are as well-telegraphed as they look . Just like in PVP you should only be blocking selectively/timing when, anyways... that just shifts it to PVE as well. I think it's a fix, frankly, for both just as much as eachother.

There is going to be very little strategic about what is to come.

As has been written about many times. Stamina regeneration ticks occur every 2 seconds and enemy attacks occur all at different rates. That is especially so when multiple enemies are queing up different kinds of attacks against the tank.

Unblocking for the chance of getting a stamina regeneration tick during the small opportunity that it occurs while at the same time there is no incoming attack has nothing to do with strategy and everything to do with wild chance.

A simple fix the regen ticks is to simply have holding block PAUSE the timer instead of stopping it (such a fix could also be applied to moving in stealth). If that isn't implemented WITH 1.7 I'd expect it to be shortly thereafter.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Guys/Girls calm down. We will have to wait and see what skillchanges are being intruduced with the new blocking system.
U cant use the current game to say that it wont work. I dont think it will be a problem against hard hitting solo bosses like in trials. The Axes in AA were never a problem with low stam reg and i tell the Templars always that they can place there spears where they want to cause i dont need em. U just need to manage your ressources and the biggest impact this change will have for me is in vdsa, but only if i run with a low dps grp.

Next week we will have the chance to test this and as always, there will be a solution for every class to handle their Stam Management .

For the umpteenth time.

"We don't know if the new change to ping-pong, where players have to play with sponges rather than their traditional paddles is going to be really that bad. Who has tested if it is bad? Nobody. Plus there are a bunch of other changes that are happening which could make playing with sponges work a-okay! "

As I have also wrote time and time again. Tanking is currently about resource management. You can find my references to that in my signature links "keeping all resources balanced is the biggest job of the tank."

I hate the ping pong analogy, the ping pong analogy might be accurate if say they removed the damage reduction from blocking or something extreme like that, instead they're making blocking consume in the worst case scenario, 600 more stamina per second. (that means after 40 whole seconds of blocking stuff that currently leaves your stamina bar static you'll run dry. (Time for a potion and 2 templar spears.)

Also they're going to be increasing the ways to stamina manage and probably aiming for an extreme case being able to bring an extra 600 stam per second to the table (for a net change of nothing from live) YAYY.

Thank you mousekime for the thoughtful reply.

An easier fix to this change is to not implement it in the first place. It is odd to me that we have to even discuss how broken the mechanic could be. I expect it to have been tested about as much as extended chains and, even worse, silver leash was tested going into 1.6.

As far as the ping pong analogy, the reason it works is because the stamina regeneration change is extreme. I think you a greatly shoehorning tanks into a specific builds or ways of playing by assuming how long it will take the to run out of stamina while blocking. By the way, 600 stamina/second is about how much stamina a tank loses while on the final boss of AA hardmode with full block cost reduction. What you are indicating is that all fights in the game are going to be as stamina intensive as the current most stamina intensive fight is. Again, that is certainly extreme. You are not in tune with tanking at a high level. Rolling, pierce armor, deep slash, bash, and blocking all cost stamina. It is rare to have full stamina as a tank and it is easy to run out when not actively working to keep it balanced.

Fair point, though from my experience (as a stamina nightblade tank running siphoning attacks) it is quite possible to stay maxed on stamina even, say tanking 2 axes (I need shards on 3 - potions and shards on 4). I figure that at the very least dragonknights and nightblades should be able to compensate for this change in their current state. (Like I said, siphoning attacks + a massive stam pool makes tanking a breeze - and magma armour allows free heavy attack spam ONTOP OF giving a chunk of stamina back on the initial cast (is also going to give more stamina back to staminacentric dk tanks next patch no less) )

Mind you 450-600 stamina per second could be hard to compensate for for a lot of players. I know for a fact it'll certainly knock out some more magicka oriented or hybrid styles of tanking but it certainly should be doable. I mean maybe it'll come to running two axe tanks for AA, maybe it'll come down to letting your dps and healer take some light load aggro. Maybe it'll come down to wide-range buffs to abilities that help sustain stamina, maybe they'll change the stam regen buff from 20% increase to stam regen to 'regenerate x stamina per second) to bypass this change directly. Maybe it'll come down to content that was once exclusive (I couldn't do vdsa pre1.6 for example) to be exclusive again.

Bromburak wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

it also should make PvE more interesting for tanks

Independent of the discussed change in this thread, a lot more is required for making a tank interesting ...

The whole ESO design is not really tank friendly because its main focus are hybrid mechanics.
With this background its not really fun to play a tank in ESO for a reason.

Tanking is what players make it.

First you need a system that really requires a tank. Not the case in ESO.

Go do any of the trials without a tank.
Go do VDSA without a tank.
Go do VCoA without a tank.
Hell do banished cells hardmode without a tank.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

I'm very much looking forward to this change with block. Block should be something used strategically.

This. Time your blocks rather than tape down the key. Also confirmed with some tanks that run regularly that the Manti's autoattacks are indeed very slow on the swing timers and only will hit a proper tank build for 8-9k... it's just the specials (also a low swing speed) that hurt if you miss blocking, and those are as well-telegraphed as they look . Just like in PVP you should only be blocking selectively/timing when, anyways... that just shifts it to PVE as well. I think it's a fix, frankly, for both just as much as eachother.

There is going to be very little strategic about what is to come.

As has been written about many times. Stamina regeneration ticks occur every 2 seconds and enemy attacks occur all at different rates. That is especially so when multiple enemies are queing up different kinds of attacks against the tank.

Unblocking for the chance of getting a stamina regeneration tick during the small opportunity that it occurs while at the same time there is no incoming attack has nothing to do with strategy and everything to do with wild chance.

A simple fix the regen ticks is to simply have holding block PAUSE the timer instead of stopping it (such a fix could also be applied to moving in stealth). If that isn't implemented WITH 1.7 I'd expect it to be shortly thereafter.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Guys/Girls calm down. We will have to wait and see what skillchanges are being intruduced with the new blocking system.
U cant use the current game to say that it wont work. I dont think it will be a problem against hard hitting solo bosses like in trials. The Axes in AA were never a problem with low stam reg and i tell the Templars always that they can place there spears where they want to cause i dont need em. U just need to manage your ressources and the biggest impact this change will have for me is in vdsa, but only if i run with a low dps grp.

Next week we will have the chance to test this and as always, there will be a solution for every class to handle their Stam Management .

For the umpteenth time.

"We don't know if the new change to ping-pong, where players have to play with sponges rather than their traditional paddles is going to be really that bad. Who has tested if it is bad? Nobody. Plus there are a bunch of other changes that are happening which could make playing with sponges work a-okay! "

As I have also wrote time and time again. Tanking is currently about resource management. You can find my references to that in my signature links "keeping all resources balanced is the biggest job of the tank."

I hate the ping pong analogy, the ping pong analogy might be accurate if say they removed the damage reduction from blocking or something extreme like that, instead they're making blocking consume in the worst case scenario, 600 more stamina per second. (that means after 40 whole seconds of blocking stuff that currently leaves your stamina bar static you'll run dry. (Time for a potion and 2 templar spears.)

Also they're going to be increasing the ways to stamina manage and probably aiming for an extreme case being able to bring an extra 600 stam per second to the table (for a net change of nothing from live) YAYY.

Thank you mousekime for the thoughtful reply.

An easier fix to this change is to not implement it in the first place. It is odd to me that we have to even discuss how broken the mechanic could be. I expect it to have been tested about as much as extended chains and, even worse, silver leash was tested going into 1.6.

As far as the ping pong analogy, the reason it works is because the stamina regeneration change is extreme. I think you a greatly shoehorning tanks into a specific builds or ways of playing by assuming how long it will take the to run out of stamina while blocking. By the way, 600 stamina/second is about how much stamina a tank loses while on the final boss of AA hardmode with full block cost reduction. What you are indicating is that all fights in the game are going to be as stamina intensive as the current most stamina intensive fight is. Again, that is certainly extreme. You are not in tune with tanking at a high level. Rolling, pierce armor, deep slash, bash, and blocking all cost stamina. It is rare to have full stamina as a tank and it is easy to run out when not actively working to keep it balanced.

Fair point, though from my experience (as a stamina nightblade tank running siphoning attacks) it is quite possible to stay maxed on stamina even, say tanking 2 axes (I need shards on 3 - potions and shards on 4). I figure that at the very least dragonknights and nightblades should be able to compensate for this change in their current state. (Like I said, siphoning attacks + a massive stam pool makes tanking a breeze - and magma armour allows free heavy attack spam ONTOP OF giving a chunk of stamina back on the initial cast (is also going to give more stamina back to staminacentric dk tanks next patch no less) )

Mind you 450-600 stamina per second could be hard to compensate for for a lot of players. I know for a fact it'll certainly knock out some more magicka oriented or hybrid styles of tanking but it certainly should be doable. I mean maybe it'll come to running two axe tanks for AA, maybe it'll come down to letting your dps and healer take some light load aggro. Maybe it'll come down to wide-range buffs to abilities that help sustain stamina, maybe they'll change the stam regen buff from 20% increase to stam regen to 'regenerate x stamina per second) to bypass this change directly. Maybe it'll come down to content that was once exclusive (I couldn't do vdsa pre1.6 for example) to be exclusive again.

Hey again Mousekime,

Thank you for pointing out all of the ways that players may be able to get stamina back. Nightblade will be an interesting choice. My current solution for the AA fight, if you can call it a solution, is eternal yokeda.

1. Taunt axes and atronarch and hold block until stamina runs out.
2. potion, and hold block until stamina runs out.
3. molten armor and dont hold block through its duration.
4. hold block until stamina is out and eventually die for the eternal yokeda bonus.
5. molten armor and dont hold block through its duration.
6. hold block until stamina is out and hope the fight is over and not to be completed again for another 20 minutes.

Again, that is only a solution in name. In spirit I think such a strategy is very unintuitive and destructive towards most of what tanks have been working on for ages (keeping resources balanced).

Just curious @mousekime111rwb17_ESO , for what reason do you attribute not being able to complete vdsa in 1.5?

Bromburak wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

it also should make PvE more interesting for tanks

Independent of the discussed change in this thread, a lot more is required for making a tank interesting ...

The whole ESO design is not really tank friendly because its main focus are hybrid mechanics.
With this background its not really fun to play a tank in ESO for a reason.

Tanking is what players make it.

First you need a system that really requires a tank. Not the case in ESO.

You mean a system with lower DPS.

The Mantikora fight being a shining example atm.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Just curious @mousekime111rwb17_ESO , for what reason do you attribute not being able to complete vdsa in 1.5?

Not being able to push such remarkable dps that groups can skip mechanics that I can't deal with (like splitting before 75% when I won't have my ult up after the intial split)

The pvp players posting in this pve thread clearly just want to nerf the living crap out of tanks because they have trouble killing them in pvp with their burst damage builds.

The fact is right now Good tanks do run low on stamina and magicka. They are constantly doing stuff. A tank not being able to regen stamina while blocking is the same as a dps not being able to regen stamina or magicka while attacking.

The only tanks that dont have to constantly watch their stamina and magicka pools are the bad tanks that do do nothing but taunt and block. And perhaps maybe a NB tank running siphoning attacks and caltrops or very high champ rank tanks.

If you are not running low on resources as a tank you are not doing enough. This change will do nothing but make tanks weaker make some builds obsolete and unplayable and make every tank focus on nothing but taunting and blocking and stam management. You will need tons of block cost reduction and will have way less stamina/magicka for doing other stuff. Taunting debuffing heals shields attacks will all be reduced a ton.

All this for one reason and one reason alone. DPS players are pissed that tanks the defensive role in the game... are hard to kill. Of course they are hard to kill thats their job! Tanks give up lots of damage in trade for this defense now because pvp players cry about it tanks give up lots of damage in trade for very little defense. We know where the mindset of the devs are with this they clearly play dps. This is why the hard caps were removed for everything except defense. You can do absurd insane amounts of damage but you cant have absurd insane amounts of defense. And now that defense is being nerfed. In pvp high defense tank builds are already almost useless. The dps builds in heavy armor with a shield are good but thats not a tank. They should make the cost of blocking scale with your base health stat. So tank builds with twice as much health as stam or magicka would be able to block much much easier then those dps builds using shields and heavy armor. Then make blocking attacks from players cost twice as much. Problem solved without hurting true tank builds.

Bromburak wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

it also should make PvE more interesting for tanks

Independent of the discussed change in this thread, a lot more is required for making a tank interesting ...

The whole ESO design is not really tank friendly because its main focus are hybrid mechanics.
With this background its not really fun to play a tank in ESO for a reason.

Tanking is what players make it.

First you need a system that really requires a tank. Not the case in ESO.

You mean a system with lower DPS.

I mean what I said!

ESO doesn't have a good tanking concept and mechanics, the class architecture is focussing a hybrid system to mainly support solo game play and casual mass. Choosing a specific role or "hardcore" raiding is not really the case in ESO because ZOS is adressing a totally different target group.

Thats why tanks or trinity system in general are poorly designed and imo not good enough for a modern game with raid support.

Soooooooo, you don't like content that requires one person be beefy enough to take all the hits while the rest of the group is only required to cop a certain threshold (survive roomwide aoe). Or you don't like making a build that can't do anything. Or you have never done and never intend to do end game group content and subsequently don't understand the mechanics of it. Which one because you're really confusing me at this point.

I have an idea how to make tanking even worse in ESO-

Each time you want to block you will have to enter a CAPTCHA! So whenever you press the "Block" button, you will have to type something like "IKU54Q".

DDuke wrote: »

I'll no longer be able to solo vet dungeons either by rolling around, boo hoo...
I don't really care, because that's a good thing.

Can you please post a video of you solo'ing a vet dungeon to completion while you still can, before the neft. thanks.

This game is going to continue to bounce from rail to rail of imbalance until they STOP treating all abilities the same inside and outside of PvP. TREAT THE ABILITIES DIFFERENTLY.

This was being done 10 freaking years ago when I was playing Guild Wars ONE.

Everyone in this thread arguing against the upcoming PvE tanking problem is doing so because of PvP.

YOU'RE BOTH RIGHT!

Both arguments are valid. The perma-blocking nerf is needed in Cyrodiil. It's also absurdly unneeded in PvE (can anyone link me a thread before this proposed change where people talked about blocking being too easy in pve? I bet not)

The only thing that is invalid is Zos' insistence on continuing to constantly throw either PvP or PvE under the bus in an attempt to balance something on the other side.

If you guys at Zos can't figure out how to make abilities act differently in PvP, I can probably get you an email address from 2003 for Guild Wars support and they can explain how for ya.