Elder Scrolls Online is an MMORPG, and denying that is where most of its issues spring from.

MorHawk · July 2015

Elloa wrote: »

Let's imagine a moment that they were no addons on PC.
- Every players would be equal, and every players could do the same content with same tools. Would be 100% fair
- Need to know when your debuff/buff in your head to know when it run out? CHeck the spell effect or count in your head. Indeed. As its the same for everyone, the ones that are the most skilled at the mini game of paying attention to the spell effect WIN!

Sure, that'd be nice for those that want it, but that doesn't exist, as the add-ons are there. So that's a totally moot point.

Elloa wrote: »

Why I'm defending my stance so fiercly? I understand than a lot of you wants addons. Its okay. Really. Just enjoy yourself the way you want.
BUT please do not enforce your gamestyle to other players.

It is boggling my mind that after more than a year, people are still responding to Atto with cries of "don't force your playstyle on us", when his entire schtick has been "give us options".

Elloa wrote: »

I still would like players, like me, who prefer a clean, pure interface, can continue to be a good player. And we would not be able to be a good player if Zenimax stop to devellop the visual clues of the combat in future content. That's my whole worrie and my whole point.
ESO is the ONLY GAME with minimalist interface. And you may have no idea of how important and pleasant it is for some players to be able to do HARD content without having the feeling of being in a pilot ***.

And now with the strawman. No-one's asking for visual cues to be removed, just for additional options, that by and large already exist, to be integrated into the UI for those that wish to enable them. No takey away. No harmy those who no likey. I really don't know how much clearer this can be made.

Tandor · July 2015

I don't understand why some people think a game has to be either a single player offline game, or else a traditional MMO. What's wrong with a game being a bit of a hybrid, something close to but different from say Skyrim or that Blizzard game, with elements of both as well as elements of neither.

Welcome to that hybrid game - TESO.

Psychobunni · July 2015

Elloa wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

@Psychobunni

Okay so you enjoyed to disprove me on each point, in a relatively unpleasant way to conclude "Options are the best compromise." Which is exactly what I've been saying.

Smiteye wrote: »

The whole "I" and "me" thing is no surprise from youtube entertainers like that and Deltia.

Entertainer like "that". Could hardly be more insulting without being rude. Thanks a lot >:(

My apologies, I was sincerely trying not to be rude or unpleasant about it. Merely to point out there is an opposite side of the coin to quite a bit you said.

Yeah maybe I'm on my bad part of the month. My apologies

I just want to be clear. Personaly I'd have prefered the game to be without addons for everyone. So its more fair.
But i'm not saying I want the game to be like I'd have prefered.

I just want to continue to play like I enjoy to play, because there is no other option on the market for a immersive MMO experience in a fantasy world, with good and excitting combat. And I'm not the only one.

haha me too! (bad part)

My poor husband has spent the better part of 10 years working on my bad habit of coming off more condescending and umm "witchy" than I intended, I'm a work in progress

fault is as likely as much mine. At its heart, most of us all love ESO, we simply approach it differently.

DenMoria · July 2015

I loathe MMOs, have always loathed MMOs, and will continue to loathe MMOs. The bring out the absolute worst in players as well as the absolute best. It's the worst that bothers me.

While TESO can, indeed be played in most cases as Solo, it is not designed to be a Solo game.

As a casual player without the time to properly dedicate to a game like TESO, I have set it aside.

I will await ES6.

In the meantime I still have Oblivion, Skyrim, DA, DD and any other of a myriad of solo and co-op selections at my disposal.

I will leave TESO to the MMOers and the dedicated.

Bromburak · July 2015

"Innovation distinguishes between a leader and a follower."
"You've got to start with the customer experience and work back toward the technology - not the other way around"
Steve Jobs

RazzPitazz · July 2015

Tandor wrote: »

I don't understand why some people think a game has to be either a single player offline game, or else a traditional MMO. What's wrong with a game being a bit of a hybrid, something close to but different from say Skyrim or that Blizzard game, with elements of both as well as elements of neither.

Welcome to that hybrid game - TESO.

To go off topic here, there is nothing innately wrong with it however it will leave both sides wanting. Nowadays a successful game is going to be one that identifies its demographic, even if it's niche, and caters to that specific demographic mainly while keeping the game accessible enough for newer players of whatever genre it is set in.
The issue with MMORPGs specifically is that they aim to cater to two different demographics, the PvErs and the PvPers, and because of this there is no easy middle ground to meet upon.
ESO has given a good shot at attempting to bring the two together but in that vision has left both sides wanting in different ways.
This is why togle options are our best bet, both sides can have their cake and eat it too without crossing forks unless they really want to.

Woman · July 2015

I certainly believe the UI is a major issue on console since they can't get addons- but I don't understand why this is such a major problem on PC. We have some amazing addon developers that are constantly improving their addons and listen to the community as they do so.

Both Social Indicators & Master Merchant accomplish the community features you mentioned for PC. FTC and other combat addons take care of the combat UI problems you mentioned.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

A moderate distance away as #4 would be the champion system, which is having little honest discussion as virtually everyone who posts about it doesn't know how any of it works or how it affects things in-game because of points #1 and #2... and misguidedly demand severe nerfs rather than relatively easy tweaks such as a moderate scale-down , implementing the catch-up mechanism sooner, or adding another 36 passives but leaving the cap at 3600 champion points to make it into a true customization aspect as well.

Considering that most of the larger discussions about CP have been from the top competitive players in this game, who are seeing the effects first hand- perhaps you shouldn't dismiss us so quickly. Most of us understand a simple concept like diminishing returns and while in theory that might have been seen to deal with the balance issues- anyone who leads competitive guilds in both PvP and PvE would tell you that doesn't solve the problem. While I'm still pro-CP in concept, I don't think it's right to brush off the discussion that competitive players have put forth, simply because you disagree with them. I would also wager that since CP is the most discussed issue on the forums, streams & in social media- it's probably a larger issue than you're giving it credit for.

Elsonso · July 2015

MorHawk wrote: »

No-one's asking for visual cues to be removed, just for additional options, that by and large already exist, to be integrated into the UI for those that wish to enable them. No takey away. No harmy those who no likey. I really don't know how much clearer this can be made.

This is actually my concern.

"No harmy those who no likey."

I actually do not believe that this statement can be made, at least in the PVP realm. To the contrary, I think that this statement may already be untrue. Harm may already being done to the players who do not use certain add-ons. Are they already at a disadvantage against those who have a UI add-on that tells them what to cast and when?

This information is allowing marginal players to be better, I get that. A lot of PVP players would not be able to go up against someone who learned to do PVP with the default UI. That is assuming that there are any of those left in the game. For this reason, I am confident that ZOS will only enhance the ability to display this information. It serves them well.

I just think that the base game should be doing the work, not an add-on. Option to turn it off if you want, but default is set to ON. Add-ons would be blocked from this information, other than for the purpose of moving it around and organizing it on the screen.

(P.S. - in case it was not obvious, I am elaborating on the point quoted above and addressing the people who think that simply using an add-on solves everything since others can simply choose to not use one)

Psychobunni · July 2015

DenMoria wrote: »

I loathe MMOs, have always loathed MMOs, and will continue to loathe MMOs. The bring out the absolute worst in players as well as the absolute best. It's the worst that bothers me.

While TESO can, indeed be played in most cases as Solo, it is not designed to be a Solo game.

As a casual player without the time to properly dedicate to a game like TESO, I have set it aside.

I will await ES6.

In the meantime I still have Oblivion, Skyrim, DA, DD and any other of a myriad of solo and co-op selections at my disposal.

I will leave TESO to the MMOers and the dedicated.

I wouldnt give up yet, the best part of any MMO is the people you play with (imo). As console settles in most jerks will quit and over time you'll find your niche. I played totally silent (chat wise) for months while I found my footing. Just my 2 cents.

Paradox · July 2015

Yes, CP is fair and balanced for every player than wants to casually play the game. Yes, all players who play ESO are hardcore grinders who do nothing but gather more CP.

Yes, every player wants the exact same features as you. Nothing you say is wrong, and nothing that other players want is correct.

Summed up about every post you've made about CP or anything in respect to the aspect of casual players. And, yes, this was sarcasm.

Shunravi · July 2015

Paradox wrote: »

Yes, CP is fair and balanced for every player than wants to casually play the game. Yes, all players who play ESO are hardcore grinders who do nothing but gather more CP.

Yes, every player wants the exact same features as you. Nothing you say is wrong, and nothing that other players want is correct.

Summed up about every post you've made about CP or anything in respect to the aspect of casual players. And, yes, this was sarcasm.

If you are playing the game casually, why do you care about cp?

Xendyn · July 2015

Elloa wrote: »

Why I'm defending my stance so fiercly? I understand than a lot of you wants addons. Its okay. Really. Just enjoy yourself the way you want.
BUT please do not enforce your gamestyle to other players. I still would like players, like me, who prefer a clean, pure interface, can continue to be a good player. And we would not be able to be a good player if Zenimax stop to devellop the visual clues of the combat in future content. That's my whole worrie and my whole point.
ESO is the ONLY GAME with minimalist interface. And you may have no idea of how important and pleasant it is for some players to be able to do HARD content without having the feeling of being in a pilot ***.

I doubt ZOS would just stop developing visual cues because some things were made optional...let me say that again for clarity...optional on the UI. Not having the option at all Is forcing a gamestyle on other players. Your fear is baseless and pretty much pulled out of thin air.
I don't feel that addons are the best thing for game performance. What's the cliche solution in this game from support when you have issues? Turn off your addons.
So why not use the UI options that are already in the game and were obviously intended to be game features?
Might even make this a better performing game overall.

Here's another thing to think about.
Without that information about damage and stats (those nasty little numbers) how would you ever know how much of this game is actually broken? How many bugged and exploitable skills, broken gear sets and plain non-working passives would still be in this game without the ability to test them? Visual cues don't help at all with that. Consoles are going to forever be totally clueless unless PC players go figure all this out For them. Players with those numbers are the Real QA in this game

Again, I feel it would be better and possibly more reliable if this information was coming directly from the game and not routed thru a 3rd party program subject to errors and having to be updated with every API change. What's going to happen when those addon authors leave the game and there's no one left to take them over? It's already started and it's not likely to get better.
You will be left with a broken, dead game.
Enjoy that immersion.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Woman wrote: »

I certainly believe the UI is a major issue on console since they can't get addons- but I don't understand why this is such a major problem on PC. We have some amazing addon developers that are constantly improving their addons and listen to the community as they do so.

Both Social Indicators & Master Merchant accomplish the community features you mentioned for PC. FTC and other combat addons take care of the combat UI problems you mentioned.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

A moderate distance away as #4 would be the champion system, which is having little honest discussion as virtually everyone who posts about it doesn't know how any of it works or how it affects things in-game because of points #1 and #2... and misguidedly demand severe nerfs rather than relatively easy tweaks such as a moderate scale-down , implementing the catch-up mechanism sooner, or adding another 36 passives but leaving the cap at 3600 champion points to make it into a true customization aspect as well.

Considering that most of the larger discussions about CP have been from the top competitive players in this game, who are seeing the effects first hand- perhaps you shouldn't dismiss us so quickly. Most of us understand a simple concept like diminishing returns and while in theory that might have been seen to deal with the balance issues- anyone who leads competitive guilds in both PvP and PvE would tell you that doesn't solve the problem. While I'm still pro-CP in concept, I don't think it's right to brush off the discussion that competitive players have put forth, simply because you disagree with them. I would also wager that since CP is the most discussed issue on the forums, streams & in social media- it's probably a larger issue than you're giving it credit for.

As a theorycrafter for, and raider in the top competitive PVE guild in the game and a long time PVP'er, I can't help but imagine you might not have noticed who you quoted when going to bash someone as inexperienced? Things exist outside of youtube and facebook, and I don't tend to shout my accomplishments from the rooftops like so many do because a good idea with the facts isn't changed by someone's social media stardom, so while yes a few of the ones that publicize and stream say X, that doesn't make X right because of that. I rarely mention what I have done and what I do because other than mentioning I am experienced, it is largely irrelevant otherwise in most cases, except to respond to posts like this one

.

I also don't wear a blindfold every time I raid either or talk in guild chats, and the general consensus amongst the leaderboard topping raiders I have also spoken with is the problem is mostly overblown (other than pvp and trials giving a small fraction of what world mob grinding does, which can be fixed) due to lack of math and that is worsened by the opaque UI and addon API, with perhaps minor changes being needed to the scaling after xp sources are balanced out.

And addons simply do not do the trick as I've expressed at length many times before, including in the OP of this thread

as they not only leave the playing field uneven for basic game info without it being readily known by everyone, but also are forbidden from accessing a lot of it in the first place.

Paradox · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

I certainly believe the UI is a major issue on console since they can't get addons- but I don't understand why this is such a major problem on PC. We have some amazing addon developers that are constantly improving their addons and listen to the community as they do so.

Both Social Indicators & Master Merchant accomplish the community features you mentioned for PC. FTC and other combat addons take care of the combat UI problems you mentioned.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

A moderate distance away as #4 would be the champion system, which is having little honest discussion as virtually everyone who posts about it doesn't know how any of it works or how it affects things in-game because of points #1 and #2... and misguidedly demand severe nerfs rather than relatively easy tweaks such as a moderate scale-down , implementing the catch-up mechanism sooner, or adding another 36 passives but leaving the cap at 3600 champion points to make it into a true customization aspect as well.

Considering that most of the larger discussions about CP have been from the top competitive players in this game, who are seeing the effects first hand- perhaps you shouldn't dismiss us so quickly. Most of us understand a simple concept like diminishing returns and while in theory that might have been seen to deal with the balance issues- anyone who leads competitive guilds in both PvP and PvE would tell you that doesn't solve the problem. While I'm still pro-CP in concept, I don't think it's right to brush off the discussion that competitive players have put forth, simply because you disagree with them. I would also wager that since CP is the most discussed issue on the forums, streams & in social media- it's probably a larger issue than you're giving it credit for.

As a theorycrafter for, and raider in the top competitive PVE guild in the game and a long time PVP'er, I can't help but imagine you might not have noticed who you quoted when going to bash someone as inexperienced? Things exist outside of youtube and facebook. I don't wear a blindfold every time I raid, and the general consensus amongst the leaderboard topping raiders I have also spoken with is the problem is mostly overblown due to lack of math and that is worsened by the opaque UI and addon API, with perhaps minor changes being needed to the scaling after xp sources are balanced out.

And addons simply do not do the trick as I've expressed at length many times before, including in the OP of this thread as they not only leave the playing field uneven for basic game info without it being readily known by everyone, but also are forbidden from accessing a lot of it in the first place.

You talk about an even playing field, but still wholeheartedly support the champion system, which ruins any balance that players had against eachother. You can spout your math and theory all you'd like, but go play PvP against someone who has CP and clear your own. Tell me how your math protects you.

And can you please stop being so condescending towards anyone that disagrees with you EVER? Please? It's really not helping any conversations.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Paradox wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

I certainly believe the UI is a major issue on console since they can't get addons- but I don't understand why this is such a major problem on PC. We have some amazing addon developers that are constantly improving their addons and listen to the community as they do so.

Both Social Indicators & Master Merchant accomplish the community features you mentioned for PC. FTC and other combat addons take care of the combat UI problems you mentioned.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

A moderate distance away as #4 would be the champion system, which is having little honest discussion as virtually everyone who posts about it doesn't know how any of it works or how it affects things in-game because of points #1 and #2... and misguidedly demand severe nerfs rather than relatively easy tweaks such as a moderate scale-down , implementing the catch-up mechanism sooner, or adding another 36 passives but leaving the cap at 3600 champion points to make it into a true customization aspect as well.

Considering that most of the larger discussions about CP have been from the top competitive players in this game, who are seeing the effects first hand- perhaps you shouldn't dismiss us so quickly. Most of us understand a simple concept like diminishing returns and while in theory that might have been seen to deal with the balance issues- anyone who leads competitive guilds in both PvP and PvE would tell you that doesn't solve the problem. While I'm still pro-CP in concept, I don't think it's right to brush off the discussion that competitive players have put forth, simply because you disagree with them. I would also wager that since CP is the most discussed issue on the forums, streams & in social media- it's probably a larger issue than you're giving it credit for.

As a theorycrafter for, and raider in the top competitive PVE guild in the game and a long time PVP'er, I can't help but imagine you might not have noticed who you quoted when going to bash someone as inexperienced? Things exist outside of youtube and facebook. I don't wear a blindfold every time I raid, and the general consensus amongst the leaderboard topping raiders I have also spoken with is the problem is mostly overblown due to lack of math and that is worsened by the opaque UI and addon API, with perhaps minor changes being needed to the scaling after xp sources are balanced out.

And addons simply do not do the trick as I've expressed at length many times before, including in the OP of this thread as they not only leave the playing field uneven for basic game info without it being readily known by everyone, but also are forbidden from accessing a lot of it in the first place.

You talk about an even playing field, but still wholeheartedly support the champion system, which ruins any balance that players had against eachother. You can spout your math and theory all you'd like, but go play PvP against someone who has CP and clear your own. Tell me how your math protects you.

And can you please stop being so condescending towards anyone that disagrees with you EVER? Please? It's really not helping any conversations.

Let me get this straight: sneering towards posts showing facts and only mentioning they have borne them out with experience by dismissing them parroting social media groupthink and claiming that top players think it's bad (inaccurately), is fine, yet replying to defend by stating you are in that top tier and most in fact do NOT, is condescending? I do plenty of proving of my math ingame.

DenMoria · July 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

I loathe MMOs, have always loathed MMOs, and will continue to loathe MMOs. The bring out the absolute worst in players as well as the absolute best. It's the worst that bothers me.

While TESO can, indeed be played in most cases as Solo, it is not designed to be a Solo game.

As a casual player without the time to properly dedicate to a game like TESO, I have set it aside.

I will await ES6.

In the meantime I still have Oblivion, Skyrim, DA, DD and any other of a myriad of solo and co-op selections at my disposal.

I will leave TESO to the MMOers and the dedicated.

I wouldnt give up yet, the best part of any MMO is the people you play with (imo). As console settles in most jerks will quit and over time you'll find your niche. I played totally silent (chat wise) for months while I found my footing. Just my 2 cents.

That is actually very wise. Thank you!

Paradox · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

I certainly believe the UI is a major issue on console since they can't get addons- but I don't understand why this is such a major problem on PC. We have some amazing addon developers that are constantly improving their addons and listen to the community as they do so.

Both Social Indicators & Master Merchant accomplish the community features you mentioned for PC. FTC and other combat addons take care of the combat UI problems you mentioned.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

A moderate distance away as #4 would be the champion system, which is having little honest discussion as virtually everyone who posts about it doesn't know how any of it works or how it affects things in-game because of points #1 and #2... and misguidedly demand severe nerfs rather than relatively easy tweaks such as a moderate scale-down , implementing the catch-up mechanism sooner, or adding another 36 passives but leaving the cap at 3600 champion points to make it into a true customization aspect as well.

Considering that most of the larger discussions about CP have been from the top competitive players in this game, who are seeing the effects first hand- perhaps you shouldn't dismiss us so quickly. Most of us understand a simple concept like diminishing returns and while in theory that might have been seen to deal with the balance issues- anyone who leads competitive guilds in both PvP and PvE would tell you that doesn't solve the problem. While I'm still pro-CP in concept, I don't think it's right to brush off the discussion that competitive players have put forth, simply because you disagree with them. I would also wager that since CP is the most discussed issue on the forums, streams & in social media- it's probably a larger issue than you're giving it credit for.

As a theorycrafter for, and raider in the top competitive PVE guild in the game and a long time PVP'er, I can't help but imagine you might not have noticed who you quoted when going to bash someone as inexperienced? Things exist outside of youtube and facebook. I don't wear a blindfold every time I raid, and the general consensus amongst the leaderboard topping raiders I have also spoken with is the problem is mostly overblown due to lack of math and that is worsened by the opaque UI and addon API, with perhaps minor changes being needed to the scaling after xp sources are balanced out.

And addons simply do not do the trick as I've expressed at length many times before, including in the OP of this thread as they not only leave the playing field uneven for basic game info without it being readily known by everyone, but also are forbidden from accessing a lot of it in the first place.

You talk about an even playing field, but still wholeheartedly support the champion system, which ruins any balance that players had against eachother. You can spout your math and theory all you'd like, but go play PvP against someone who has CP and clear your own. Tell me how your math protects you.

And can you please stop being so condescending towards anyone that disagrees with you EVER? Please? It's really not helping any conversations.

Let me get this straight: sneering towards posts showing facts and only mentioning they have borne them out with experience by dismissing them parroting social media groupthink and claiming that top players think it's bad (inaccurately), is fine, yet replying to defend by stating you are in that top tier and most in fact do NOT, is condescending? I do plenty of proving of my math ingame.

Do what you will, keep posting. Keep defending a broken system. Ruin the game further and advance yourself by doing so. It's clearly what you care about.

/enddiscussion

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

amgame308_ESO · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

I certainly believe the UI is a major issue on console since they can't get addons- but I don't understand why this is such a major problem on PC. We have some amazing addon developers that are constantly improving their addons and listen to the community as they do so.

Both Social Indicators & Master Merchant accomplish the community features you mentioned for PC. FTC and other combat addons take care of the combat UI problems you mentioned.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

A moderate distance away as #4 would be the champion system, which is having little honest discussion as virtually everyone who posts about it doesn't know how any of it works or how it affects things in-game because of points #1 and #2... and misguidedly demand severe nerfs rather than relatively easy tweaks such as a moderate scale-down , implementing the catch-up mechanism sooner, or adding another 36 passives but leaving the cap at 3600 champion points to make it into a true customization aspect as well.

Considering that most of the larger discussions about CP have been from the top competitive players in this game, who are seeing the effects first hand- perhaps you shouldn't dismiss us so quickly. Most of us understand a simple concept like diminishing returns and while in theory that might have been seen to deal with the balance issues- anyone who leads competitive guilds in both PvP and PvE would tell you that doesn't solve the problem. While I'm still pro-CP in concept, I don't think it's right to brush off the discussion that competitive players have put forth, simply because you disagree with them. I would also wager that since CP is the most discussed issue on the forums, streams & in social media- it's probably a larger issue than you're giving it credit for.

As a theorycrafter for, and raider in the top competitive PVE guild in the game and a long time PVP'er, I can't help but imagine you might not have noticed who you quoted when going to bash someone as inexperienced? Things exist outside of youtube and facebook, and I don't tend to shout my accomplishments from the rooftops like so many do because a good idea with the facts isn't changed by someone's social media stardom, so while yes a few of the ones that publicize and stream say X, that doesn't make X right because of that. I rarely mention what I have done and what I do because other than mentioning I am experienced, it is largely irrelevant otherwise in most cases, except to respond to posts like this one .

I also don't wear a blindfold every time I raid either or talk in guild chats, and the general consensus amongst the leaderboard topping raiders I have also spoken with is the problem is mostly overblown (other than pvp and trials giving a small fraction of what world mob grinding does, which can be fixed) due to lack of math and that is worsened by the opaque UI and addon API, with perhaps minor changes being needed to the scaling after xp sources are balanced out.

And addons simply do not do the trick as I've expressed at length many times before, including in the OP of this thread as they not only leave the playing field uneven for basic game info without it being readily known by everyone, but also are forbidden from accessing a lot of it in the first place.

I give you this, you sure do know how to put lipstick on a pig.

timidobserver · July 2015

Eh, I view it as ZOS' fault. They knew that they were taking up the name of one of the most popular single player RPGs in ever. They knew that a ton of the incoming players would be coming to ESO purely because of the single player games. They should have had that portion of the player base in their planning as they planned the game. For example, you don't release an Elder Scrolls game without all of the guilds and the justice system fully functional at launch.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Paradox wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

I certainly believe the UI is a major issue on console since they can't get addons- but I don't understand why this is such a major problem on PC. We have some amazing addon developers that are constantly improving their addons and listen to the community as they do so.

Both Social Indicators & Master Merchant accomplish the community features you mentioned for PC. FTC and other combat addons take care of the combat UI problems you mentioned.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

A moderate distance away as #4 would be the champion system, which is having little honest discussion as virtually everyone who posts about it doesn't know how any of it works or how it affects things in-game because of points #1 and #2... and misguidedly demand severe nerfs rather than relatively easy tweaks such as a moderate scale-down , implementing the catch-up mechanism sooner, or adding another 36 passives but leaving the cap at 3600 champion points to make it into a true customization aspect as well.

Considering that most of the larger discussions about CP have been from the top competitive players in this game, who are seeing the effects first hand- perhaps you shouldn't dismiss us so quickly. Most of us understand a simple concept like diminishing returns and while in theory that might have been seen to deal with the balance issues- anyone who leads competitive guilds in both PvP and PvE would tell you that doesn't solve the problem. While I'm still pro-CP in concept, I don't think it's right to brush off the discussion that competitive players have put forth, simply because you disagree with them. I would also wager that since CP is the most discussed issue on the forums, streams & in social media- it's probably a larger issue than you're giving it credit for.

As a theorycrafter for, and raider in the top competitive PVE guild in the game and a long time PVP'er, I can't help but imagine you might not have noticed who you quoted when going to bash someone as inexperienced? Things exist outside of youtube and facebook. I don't wear a blindfold every time I raid, and the general consensus amongst the leaderboard topping raiders I have also spoken with is the problem is mostly overblown due to lack of math and that is worsened by the opaque UI and addon API, with perhaps minor changes being needed to the scaling after xp sources are balanced out.

And addons simply do not do the trick as I've expressed at length many times before, including in the OP of this thread as they not only leave the playing field uneven for basic game info without it being readily known by everyone, but also are forbidden from accessing a lot of it in the first place.

You talk about an even playing field, but still wholeheartedly support the champion system, which ruins any balance that players had against eachother. You can spout your math and theory all you'd like, but go play PvP against someone who has CP and clear your own. Tell me how your math protects you.

And can you please stop being so condescending towards anyone that disagrees with you EVER? Please? It's really not helping any conversations.

Let me get this straight: sneering towards posts showing facts and only mentioning they have borne them out with experience by dismissing them parroting social media groupthink and claiming that top players think it's bad (inaccurately), is fine, yet replying to defend by stating you are in that top tier and most in fact do NOT, is condescending? I do plenty of proving of my math ingame.

Do what you will, keep posting. Keep defending a broken system. Ruin the game further and advance yourself by doing so. It's clearly what you care about.

/enddiscussion

You think it's broken, I do not... that doesn't have anything to do with perceived personality traits, nor does it somehow make anyone condescending for simply not agreeing with you

. Conversations happen by talking facts and ideas, not lambasting the people talking.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

VoidBlue · July 2015

speaking of UI HUD. i feel silly that my skill bar is where it is and my compass is where it is.. there is a good inch or two from where it is to the bottom/top of my TV screen. why cant I move it to the very top of bottom of my TV screen? i mean sure its a 50" screen and i can see just fine of everything that is happening. but it just seems weird that its on completely at the top or bottom of the screen.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Eh, I view it as ZOS' fault. They knew that they were taking up the name of one of the most popular single player RPGs in ever. They knew that a ton of the incoming players would be coming to ESO purely because of the single player games. They should have had that portion of the player base in their planning as they planned the game. For example, you don't release an Elder Scrolls game without all of the guilds and the justice system fully functional at launch.

Definitely, but likewise they should have prepared to accommodate the MMORPG player base that was marketed to, as well. They largely did, but stumbled on the UI which has negatively impacted both Elder Scrolls and MMO fans alike.

RizeStormblade · July 2015

I think most of the interface should be visible in options. I hear hide saddle bags on your mount is coming with IC.
Yet I do think things like, damage numbers, battle log, etc, should be toggled in options. I know they aren't there, but they should be.
If we can consistently get a message saying "Target is Immune", or "Target is too far away", we can get messages saying, "[User] has healed you" or "You've been slowed", "Poisoned". As for telling who hit you, perhaps small red arrows on the edges of the screen tellin ya where the damage comes from?
If most of the notifications on the screen can be toggled and adjusted to anyone's liking I think everyone would be happy.
I for one would like to be able to tell what is affecting me if I'm poisoned or slowed.

-EDIT-
I also think we should be able to see other group members on the compass, other than the leader.
We've been separated numerous times, and going back and forth on the map to see the distance or where they are, is a bit tedious.

amgame308_ESO · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Woman wrote: »

I certainly believe the UI is a major issue on console since they can't get addons- but I don't understand why this is such a major problem on PC. We have some amazing addon developers that are constantly improving their addons and listen to the community as they do so.

Both Social Indicators & Master Merchant accomplish the community features you mentioned for PC. FTC and other combat addons take care of the combat UI problems you mentioned.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

A moderate distance away as #4 would be the champion system, which is having little honest discussion as virtually everyone who posts about it doesn't know how any of it works or how it affects things in-game because of points #1 and #2... and misguidedly demand severe nerfs rather than relatively easy tweaks such as a moderate scale-down , implementing the catch-up mechanism sooner, or adding another 36 passives but leaving the cap at 3600 champion points to make it into a true customization aspect as well.

Considering that most of the larger discussions about CP have been from the top competitive players in this game, who are seeing the effects first hand- perhaps you shouldn't dismiss us so quickly. Most of us understand a simple concept like diminishing returns and while in theory that might have been seen to deal with the balance issues- anyone who leads competitive guilds in both PvP and PvE would tell you that doesn't solve the problem. While I'm still pro-CP in concept, I don't think it's right to brush off the discussion that competitive players have put forth, simply because you disagree with them. I would also wager that since CP is the most discussed issue on the forums, streams & in social media- it's probably a larger issue than you're giving it credit for.

As a theorycrafter for, and raider in the top competitive PVE guild in the game and a long time PVP'er, I can't help but imagine you might not have noticed who you quoted when going to bash someone as inexperienced? Things exist outside of youtube and facebook. I don't wear a blindfold every time I raid, and the general consensus amongst the leaderboard topping raiders I have also spoken with is the problem is mostly overblown due to lack of math and that is worsened by the opaque UI and addon API, with perhaps minor changes being needed to the scaling after xp sources are balanced out.

And addons simply do not do the trick as I've expressed at length many times before, including in the OP of this thread as they not only leave the playing field uneven for basic game info without it being readily known by everyone, but also are forbidden from accessing a lot of it in the first place.

You talk about an even playing field, but still wholeheartedly support the champion system, which ruins any balance that players had against eachother. You can spout your math and theory all you'd like, but go play PvP against someone who has CP and clear your own. Tell me how your math protects you.

And can you please stop being so condescending towards anyone that disagrees with you EVER? Please? It's really not helping any conversations.

Let me get this straight: sneering towards posts showing facts and only mentioning they have borne them out with experience by dismissing them parroting social media groupthink and claiming that top players think it's bad (inaccurately), is fine, yet replying to defend by stating you are in that top tier and most in fact do NOT, is condescending? I do plenty of proving of my math ingame.

You literally want a software development path to revolve around your definition of an "industry standard" MMO. If it takes you to do math to measure your success in a video game you are doing wrong. Why do you even bother when you have other options available in "industry standard" MMOs.

What about ESO actually appeals to someone like you? Why do you login? I bet you have a YouTube channel or twitch stream.

timidobserver · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Eh, I view it as ZOS' fault. They knew that they were taking up the name of one of the most popular single player RPGs in ever. They knew that a ton of the incoming players would be coming to ESO purely because of the single player games. They should have had that portion of the player base in their planning as they planned the game. For example, you don't release an Elder Scrolls game without all of the guilds and the justice system fully functional at launch.

Definitely, but likewise they should have prepared to accommodate the MMORPG player base that was marketed to, as well. They largely did, but stumbled on the UI which has negatively impacted both Elder Scrolls and MMO fans alike.

I think they went much farther to accommodate the MMORPG player than the Elder Scrolls fan that has followed the franchise for years. Though, in general the game probably needed another 6 months to a year of development in both directions, but whoever is in charge of the purse strings probably wasn't having any of that.

I am 100% okay with what they did on the UI. The addon community takes care of much of what they left off, but they shouldn't have closed down so much of the API right before launch.

Sykis · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Sykis wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Sykis wrote: »

As fast as ppl in game setting there own standards for what will allow you to be in group, nothing will stop that from happening. Some Alpha personality will always try and set what they think is a standard and addons/UI/gear animation is not going to stop that. These are the people in any MMO I have played that I avoid all together.

So instead of taking charge and making your own group to play how you enjoy, you take charge and insist that others shouldn't be allowed to do that themselves instead?

Negative, I simply do not enjoy someone else telling me how I should be playing if I met the standard for which is required to play. And to be more specific, I'm not saying I refuse to listen to the leader of the group if they have a good strategy and motivate the people to be better and help teach those around them a different or better way to do thinks. If this morphs into a demanding and totalitarian point of view (my way or the highway) then I avoid them.

So, rather, as I said you prefer to insist that it's your way or the highway (i.e. you leave the group) instead of just making your own group without the player-driven rules in the first place. Jerks are jerks regardless of what game you play... just like in real life, we haven't banned butter knives because some bad apples use them to attack people .

When I am in a group or lead a group I educate or ask if I do not know. I leave a group when someone trying to lead tells me I suck or am stupid for not knowing something or telling me while I might be geared enough for the content I am not welcome because I'm not at the group leaders standard. I personally won't kick someone out of my group because they are wet behind the ears or not performing. I try and educate as much as I can. If that turns into my group carrying 1 person that is fine with me. They won't learn if they are just left to waist side. I normally group with people I have met in guild but have had random players before. Either way I enjoy the content. Finally I will never say that my way is the method that people need to follow.

SturgeHammer · July 2015

People can play how they want. What other people do has Zero Impact on the way I play. As long as the game is fun, I'll keep playing. Suggesting that any subset of the player base is directly responsible for a lack of attention from the devs is ludicrous. It's ZOS's job to to maintain a game that is fun for everyone, not just for the minority here on the forums, or the majority of players who are silent. If ZOS is not doing this to the community's satisfaction, it's their fault. We should all continue discussing and debating the changes we want to see to improve our experience because that enables ZOS to see all sides of the issues. The OP's grievances are all valid and I agree with most of the issues highlighted, but I don't blame the opposition who are only seeking to improve their experience too. I will debate that opposition to make my point, but I won't blame them if ZOS makes the a choice I don't agree with.

dday3six · July 2015

Elloa wrote: »

AaronLannister wrote: »

I can see your point.
but it still doesn't excuse them from omitting text chat on consoles.

This is an entierly different topic than the ones I brought up. But yes I agree with you.

@Attorneyatlawl @Smiteye @dday3six

First of all, it toke me maybe one year to level my character, but this has nothing to do with my capability to do content and play the game. I play ESO since july 2013. I played/tested most of end game content on PTS before it was released. So I actually healed Veteran City of Ashes when my main character was still lvl 40 or something.
For my main character I just toke my time. Because I enjoyed it that way.

When I say its possible to play without addons, I'm obviously not speaking about players finishing the main story and all the quest. I'm speaking about players doing the most difficult content. Maybe not beating Hodor on the leaderboard. Cause for that you need to have the same tools than them. But that's another point.

Let's imagine a moment that they were no addons on PC.
- Every players would be equal, and every players could do the same content with same tools. Would be 100% fair
- Need to know when your debuff/buff in your head to know when it run out? CHeck the spell effect or count in your head. Indeed. As its the same for everyone, the ones that are the most skilled at the mini game of paying attention to the spell effect WIN!

I would have actually prefered the game to be that way. But countrary as some other I'M NOT IMPOSING my views on others. I'm just promoting the non addons gameplay as most "exposed" players are pro-addons or atleast using them, someone need to take this stance and show to the public that its perfectly doable to play without addons and be a good player that actually get the job done in the most difficult content. I need to be there for the players that are NOT LIKE YOU. For some poeple it doesn't work to see 25241 on their screen. For some poeple it mean nothing. The information will not be processed through their brain under the stress of the combat. But they will understand better to see the life bar disminishing, or see the boss surrounded by smoke.

It's false to claim that it is needed to have numbers, percentage, icons to be good. Is it easier? Maybe it is easier: especially when you got a big ULTIMATE READY. Yes that's obviously easier. Its like DeadlyBossMode "RUN AWAAAAYYY LITTLE GIRL" you even do not need to read anything you are just warned that you need to escape something the boss is doing! Brainless addon.
But it still possible, enjoyable to play the game without UI and players need to be told so and encouraged to atleast try.

I read your post @Attorneyatlawl but I'm really dubtiful than the NERF made by Zenimax was due to players unable to play the game because they didn't had numbers on their screen. Zenimax nerfed the content because a lot of players never played a MMO before, or because they were used to be spoon feed by Blizzard (and others)
It's not that hard to understand when to block, when to dodge, and if you are doing enough damage without having an addon telling you so.
In my opinion, Zenimax nerfed content because a large part of the playing community is used to easy and are impatient, unable to provide effort to succeed a game. Also, console. (hypotesis) In the case of ESO its very sad cause the game went from a decent difficulty, with good challenge to something ridiculously easy.

I'm totally agreing with poeple claiming ESO has become too easy. But that's not related to addons imho.

Why I'm defending my stance so fiercly? I understand than a lot of you wants addons. Its okay. Really. Just enjoy yourself the way you want.
BUT please do not enforce your gamestyle to other players. I still would like players, like me, who prefer a clean, pure interface, can continue to be a good player. And we would not be able to be a good player if Zenimax stop to devellop the visual clues of the combat in future content. That's my whole worrie and my whole point.
ESO is the ONLY GAME with minimalist interface. And you may have no idea of how important and pleasant it is for some players to be able to do HARD content without having the feeling of being in a pilot ***.

TDLR:
- I'm not a clueless player. I actually played ESO since Alpha3 and tested all difficult content (beside trials) before it was released. On life I did everything except Sanctum Ophidia and Vet DSA that I didn't tried yet.
- If they were no addons every players would be equal and would compete with fairness with each others. I'd have loved that, but I ACCEPT its not that way, as I accept differences.
- Not every players works well with the same kind of informations. For some players visual clue works better than numbers to fastly annalyse
- Be careful to not impose your view on others. We have the right to exist and enjoy ESO as much as Pro-addons users

@RazzPitazz
I was mostly speaking about COMBAT Addons. The inventory/trading guild/crafting interface definitively need improvement.

Counting buffs and DOT timers in your head is not practical or even possible for most people. The vast majority of people do not actually multi task infact they swap rapidly from one task to another, and over time their ability to perform those tasks with precision decays.

Speaking to visual ques, they are absent in many ways. There is no que to track enemy health. The bar doesn't flash or change color to indicate wounded and low health, and nor does the enemy. There are no marks to help measure health either.

Execute skill icons do not flash or any other observable change to show health either. They could simply not be usable until they would deal max damage, yet that is not the case either. Buffs, DOTs, and Debuffs, could use the greyed over clock style wind to show their duration, or they could flash during the last 4 seconds.

However none of those things happen. There is no visual or numerical output for those parts of the game.

You're a Healer, the main thing you need to see if Health Bars, but there are two important partsof being a solid DPS that are missing. Point out about those 2 issues often, and frankly a few people keep telling me the game gives you everything you need, but frankly no one can give me a realistic way the game has to track those 2 things.

MrGhosty · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Smiteye wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Yeah, because nobody wanted this game for just cooperative TES play.

Except this isn't that game! It can be fun in that way too tho.

In effect, it is that game.

Or are you aware of an alternative that allows cooperative play in a TES game?

Ask Bethesda to implement a co-op mode in TES VI . Not everything you can imagine exists yet in life.

Sadly I don't think Bethesda will ever implement co op as I'm relatively sure people have been asking for that for ages. They chose instead to use that extra resource to tweak and pull every ounce of performance out of their game to make it the best player experience.

That said, I would love to be able to get rid of all my add ons and have all of that information still available to me via the UI. I don't understand how having a toggle option for the minimalists is such an issue.

I also think it doesn't really work to pull the "this isn't skyrim online" card as ZOS leans quite heavily on the success of Skyrim in particular in the way they market the game. It does tend to give the impression to those who did simply want skyrim with friends that was exactly what they were getting. That plays a large part (imo) in their move to consoles as well, since Elder Scrolls exploded in popularity with the release of Skyrim.

All that said, I think a lot could be gained from learning from past successful MMOs and implement more of what those games did in order to make this game better. What is similarly baffling is that they appear to have only cherry picked a few of what many die hard ES fans would consider essential as well, so they borrowed from both but seemingly grabbed the wrong bits. How you can release an ES games without the core guilds is somewhat baffling, as is the lack of housing and some of the other aspects.

sagitter · July 2015

Ahhh thanks for the info, I tought that this game was a Moba , but now thanks to your wisdom prolly of console player I know the truth.