Elder Scrolls Online is an MMORPG, and denying that is where most of its issues spring from.

UltimaJoe777

The quest involving the companions and the Group Instance dungeons like Spindle, Banished, etc. are the majority if not all of the places solo in this game. Every single other aspect is open to the public. So the main story is solo but let's not forget that the Dark Anchors are just as much a part of the main story as the questline is and that is not solo. Let's also not forget Coldharbour itself is an entire region open to the public even if you haven't gotten that far on your own yet.

Seriously why do people thing ESO is not as interactive as it should be? Far as I'm concerned it is. Nothing wrong with having an aspect or 2 solo. In fact the solo portions serve to prevent someone from simply completing everything in the game by riding piggyback if anything.

RavenSkylord

VoidBlue wrote: »

Wut!!! This is an mmorpg? I thought it was a sweetroll.

Let me guess, somebody stole your sweet roll.

I used to be an adventurer, until I took an arrow in the knee.

UltimaJoe777

@VoidBlue You do know Sweetrolls are in this game right? lol

RavenSkylord

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

The quest involving the companions and the Group Instance dungeons like Spindle, Banished, etc. are the majority if not all of the places solo in this game. Every single other aspect is open to the public. So the main story is solo but let's not forget that the Dark Anchors are just as much a part of the main story as the questline is and that is not solo. Let's also not forget Coldharbour itself is an entire region open to the public even if you haven't gotten that far on your own yet.

Seriously why do people thing ESO is not as interactive as it should be? Far as I'm concerned it is. Nothing wrong with having an aspect or 2 solo. In fact the solo portions serve to prevent someone from simply completing everything in the game by riding piggyback if anything.

While I agree with what you say, I have seen long threads complaining about people coming and taking the exp away from soloing a group boss or dolmen. Not to mention people asking for Craglorn to be soloable.

Elloa

RazzPitazz wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

Also because I think it's a very valid point, a console player mentioned in another thread that without the numbers it is almost impossible to theorycraft builds on console. Crunching the numbers, testing everything out, this vs that, is what some people find fun in a game.

Makes me curious if @Deltia or @Atropos knows if anyone on their sites contribute builds that they have put together addon-less and remain viable

@Elloa doesn't use add ons, but I do not know if she builds on her own or with help.

I do not play with addons, simply because it is not needed to be a good player and I've always dreamt to play a MMORPG without a heavy interface like in every other MMO. I'm creating my own builds and I do not need any sort of number or DPS meters to know if I'm healing well, dispelling correctly or doing enough damage, because all the informations I need are already in the game as visual clues.
Well, to be fair I'm not PVPing and I'm not doing rush-run to beat the leader boards. But I'm decent enough to claim and prove that addons are not needed to be a good player and get the job done.

Since early beta I've been a strong defenser of the NON-ADDONS using. I would have wished that addons would have been forbidden.Why? Because we have the chance to play a wonderful game that allow a different kind of gameplay, where you do not need to rely on numbers, icons, texts to play, understand what's going on and be good. FOR ONCE, we had a game free of all that mess. For me it was a blessing! Because I hate numbers, it doesn't help me. It mess up my screen, distract me, and make me do more easily mistakes. Not everyone is working the same way. Not everyone play the same way. Not everyone need the same informations to be a good player.

What you do not realise is the fact that the important part of the community begging for all those UI changes have actually ruined the game for many other players. Because today, a lot of players do believe they need addons to be a good player. They even do not TRY to play the game as it was originaly intended: a more instinctive, more action-based experience.
Some players, some guilds to impose their views on other players. Do you imagine this! Guilds enforcing the use of DPS meters on their members? Isn't it very sad? What if the player is good enough without it! Isn't that all what's needed?

If a game is designed with certain rules, its you, the player supposed to follow the rules. The rules are made to give a challenge to overcome.
By refusing to play ESO without all you usual MMO UI, you are refusing to play the rules, you are refusing to play the game, you are refusing to overcome the challenge, and to better yourself..


I really hope that Zenimax will not implement the addons UI in their game. Because if they do that, they may stop to devellop the visual clues in game. Its easier to pop up numbers on a screen than to work out a boss animation or a spell effect that would give the information. And that would actually force players to have a UI activated. So by asking Zenimax to add this UI features, you may ruin the game for other players that were enjoying the game differently.

The addon system is the best compromise between tow different style of gamers as it still allow player the choice to play the game as it was designed to be played, or to use the addons and simplify the challenge for them.
I really hope that Zenimax will not abandon the original design of the game, because there is actually many players that enjoy to play without the messy and ugly interface of usual MMO, and want to get immersed both in the world and in the action.



I'll always be there playing the game without addons. And if Zenimax add some UI features in the game, I'll play without them aswell. Because I want to enjoy the game with all its beauty. Because I want to fight and be a good player by observing the combat, not my screen. And I'll continue to prove that addons are not needed, and the experience of ESO without addons is a great experience worth to be tried. I'll be there to show that there is not a single way to be a good players, but that you have different options.



For your information, this my video "TIPS to play without ADDONS"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyiePwDtdE8

adriant1978

Don't assume that everyone who isn't a "traditional MMO gamer" is happy with the way this game's UI obfuscates and fails to inform. I rarely group with anyone but my partner, don't PvP, so I guess you could say I'm one of those people who treats it like a co-op TES experience but I still wish I knew more about what was going on.

I recently had a particular issue with some abilities apparently not working and the game gave me no feedback as to why this was, leading me to eventually ask around on this forum about it to see if it was a bug.

If this was a single player TES game I'd have been able to break out the Construction Set to help me understand the mechanics, but an online game where that isn't an option really needs to inform better.

Ranique

The first question you should ask yourself is: what is an MMO?
No I don't mean the abreviation, but what does it mean??

It is a label used to identify a group of games. The common factor is that it is open world right?
But how come that GW1 was always labelled as an MMO?
How come that in most MMO's, the most popular content is instanced?

So saying that it is an open world game is not enough and the definition is too broad to actually have a lot of value.
so let's look at the intentions of ZoS.

during beta I had to answer a lot of survey's. As I played single player RPG's and MMO's, they wanted them answered from both perspectives. From this I conclude that ESO designed this as a MMORPG/singleplayerRPG crossover. This is also seen in the solo-abillity of the majority of the game.

This lead to major critism and so Craglorn was made for groups.
But there is a fault there. namely that it came with VR14. To reach that rank you need to do group content.
I have nothing against group content, but I'm against forced groupcontent. There should be an alternative.

Now, they allready announced that future DLC's will be aimed for solo-content. This poses a new problem though. If that is the alternative to reach VR14, it would be easier to reach VR14 and will drain all life out of Craglorn. Unless people make it forced solo.
However, just as I am against forced group content, I'm also against forced solo content.

So what is ESO?
It is a game very simular to other games called MMORPG's. they also aim at the single player RPG audiance at lower levels, but that dissapears for the endgame. Even for an MMORPG, forced group content is often not tolerated.

WolffenBloodseeker

Elloa wrote: »

RazzPitazz wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

Also because I think it's a very valid point, a console player mentioned in another thread that without the numbers it is almost impossible to theorycraft builds on console. Crunching the numbers, testing everything out, this vs that, is what some people find fun in a game.

Makes me curious if @Deltia or @Atropos knows if anyone on their sites contribute builds that they have put together addon-less and remain viable

@Elloa doesn't use add ons, but I do not know if she builds on her own or with help.

I do not play with addons, simply because it is not needed to be a good player and I've always dreamt to play a MMORPG without a heavy interface like in every other MMO. I'm creating my own builds and I do not need any sort of number or DPS meters to know if I'm healing well, dispelling correctly or doing enough damage, because all the informations I need are already in the game as visual clues.
Well, to be fair I'm not PVPing and I'm not doing rush-run to beat the leader boards. But I'm decent enough to claim and prove that addons are not needed to be a good player and get the job done.

Since early beta I've been a strong defenser of the NON-ADDONS using. I would have wished that addons would have been forbidden.Why? Because we have the chance to play a wonderful game that allow a different kind of gameplay, where you do not need to rely on numbers, icons, texts to play, understand what's going on and be good. FOR ONCE, we had a game free of all that mess. For me it was a blessing! Because I hate numbers, it doesn't help me. It mess up my screen, distract me, and make me do more easily mistakes. Not everyone is working the same way. Not everyone play the same way. Not everyone need the same informations to be a good player.

What you do not realise is the fact that the important part of the community begging for all those UI changes have actually ruined the game for many other players. Because today, a lot of players do believe they need addons to be a good player. They even do not TRY to play the game as it was originaly intended: a more instinctive, more action-based experience.
Some players, some guilds to impose their views on other players. Do you imagine this! Guilds enforcing the use of DPS meters on their members? Isn't it very sad? What if the player is good enough without it! Isn't that all what's needed?

If a game is designed with certain rules, its you, the player supposed to follow the rules. The rules are made to give a challenge to overcome.
By refusing to play ESO without all you usual MMO UI, you are refusing to play the rules, you are refusing to play the game, you are refusing to overcome the challenge, and to better yourself..


I really hope that Zenimax will not implement the addons UI in their game. Because if they do that, they may stop to devellop the visual clues in game. Its easier to pop up numbers on a screen than to work out a boss animation or a spell effect that would give the information. And that would actually force players to have a UI activated. So by asking Zenimax to add this UI features, you may ruin the game for other players that were enjoying the game differently.

The addon system is the best compromise between tow different style of gamers as it still allow player the choice to play the game as it was designed to be played, or to use the addons and simplify the challenge for them.
I really hope that Zenimax will not abandon the original design of the game, because there is actually many players that enjoy to play without the messy and ugly interface of usual MMO, and want to get immersed both in the world and in the action.



I'll always be there playing the game without addons. And if Zenimax add some UI features in the game, I'll play without them aswell. Because I want to enjoy the game with all its beauty. Because I want to fight and be a good player by observing the combat, not my screen. And I'll continue to prove that addons are not needed, and the experience of ESO without addons is a great experience worth to be tried. I'll be there to show that there is not a single way to be a good players, but that you have different options.



For your information, this my video "TIPS to play without ADDONS"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyiePwDtdE8

Agreed, many years ago i was a MMO player, i have played most of of the MMOs that exist to date but got burned out of the genre because of all the numbers and UI elements and min-maxing builds and skill rotations that distracted from the game itself, this wasn't fun to me, i wanted to play something immersive like single-player RPGs but still with the MMO feel and massive community of players to share our adventures, i sticked to singleplayer RPGs (TES and Mount&Blade being my favorite series) for something like 7 years before ESO came along and brought together the immersive MMORPG i always wanted, of course the game isn't perfect, no game is, but *** this is in the right direction for me, i play PVE/PVP (with some hud elements disabled like glowing around objects and players/npcs and the quest tracker on screen) and have NO PROBLEM at all without addons, i'm Vet14 doing RP, PVP, pledges, trials and DSA most of the time and only use a single addon, combat indicator that makes the compass have a red line when you are in combat (to better avoid the eternal can't mount while in combat bug in PVP).

For me ZOS made the best decision around the 2 playstyles, by default a clean and immersive MMO and if the players want more traditional MMO elements it's their choice to have it with addons (it's a shame the console guys can't have it if they really want but i believe this is more on Sony and MS end than ZOS)

Elloa

@adriant1978 In case your message is an answer to mine, I'm not assuming anything.

I'm NOT a solo game player. I barely played Morrowind and a fair bit of Skyrim. My main games are MMORPG. I've started with Anarchy Online and played World of Wacraft since the beta, and played all major MMORPG that released since then. I even had tons of addons installed during WOW-WOTLK ( and I hated that)

There is different kind of players. I'm in favour of considering the needs of everyone. While I have been a passionate defenser of the ADDONS FORBIDDEN stance during the beta discussion, I've since then softened and accepted that each player should play the game as they want.

But the game had not originally been designed to give you that much informations, and the challenge of the game was also to decipher the visual clues of the combat. You do not want to play the game that way. well its your call. But were I strongly disagree and hit the table with my fits, is when I hear people imposing their views. The game had been created without addons to be played without addons. A player dispose of everything it need to play the game without UI. It false and wrong to impose to players or to make them beliefs they need addons on to be a good players.

And I also hope with all my heart that Zenimax will not start to change their development, and because as I said, UI text is easier to develop than visual clue and monster animation, if ESO become a standart MMO I may aswell go back to a standart MMO with good raiding content.

The Uninvited

RavenSkylord wrote: »

I used to be an adventurer, until I took an arrow in the knee.

I used to be an adventurer, but than I got stuck in a loading screen.

bedlom

As an mmorpg I think the main ESO needs most is an optional chat box.

Lack of that is what will really be the problem for the game in the long run imo.

Ranique

Elloa wrote: »

@adriant1978 In case your message is an answer to mine, I'm not assuming anything.

I'm NOT a solo game player. I barely played Morrowind and a fair bit of Skyrim. My main games are MMORPG. I've started with Anarchy Online and played World of Wacraft since the beta, and played all major MMORPG that released since then. I even had tons of addons installed during WOW-WOTLK ( and I hated that)

There is different kind of players. I'm in favour of considering the needs of everyone. While I have been a passionate defenser of the ADDONS FORBIDDEN stance during the beta discussion, I've since then softened and accepted that each player should play the game as they want.

But the game had not originally been designed to give you that much informations, and the challenge of the game was also to decipher the visual clues of the combat. You do not want to play the game that way. well its your call. But were I strongly disagree and hit the table with my fits, is when I hear people imposing their views. The game had been created without addons to be played without addons. A player dispose of everything it need to play the game without UI. It false and wrong to impose to players or to make them beliefs they need addons on to be a good players.

And I also hope with all my heart that Zenimax will not start to change their development, and because as I said, UI text is easier to develop than visual clue and monster animation, if ESO become a standart MMO I may aswell go back to a standart MMO with good raiding content.

I think add ons are mostly just QoL (specifically the ones you seem to be against). they don't offer any advantage you wouldn't have any other way. Allready during beta, there where guides popping up pointing you to the lorebooks and skyshards. You can always track your sales manually with pen and paper or excell. What they offer is making that easier.

This is nothing unique compared to e.g. TES-games and other MMO's.

As this is common practise (that people make guides), it would be ridicilious if ZoS expected us to all find those skyshards without help from a third party source (add-ons or a website).

compare it with a vampire bite. Just cause you can get it from an npc, doesn't mean that it is the way to get it. More it seems like the bite from an npc is to infect patient #1 and get it to spread from there to the other players by biting eachother. So saying that it is designed to find the skyshards without third party help is just as untrue.

ADarklore

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

So the main story is solo but let's not forget that the Dark Anchors are just as much a part of the main story as the questline is and that is not solo.

You do realize that Dark Anchors SCALE based upon how many players are taking part? So yes, Dark Anchors were designed to be soloable... along with a majority of the content. They understood that the majority of players would be Elder Scrolls players, single-player gamers, so I am sure they designed the game to provide both those who wanted a cooperative ES game and those who preferred remaining solo. Those who expected an 'old school' MMO need to realize that the MMO genre is changing because, as almost all consoles are internet connected, even single-player gamers are looking for online games- not 'group-content only' games. Why wouldn't they? Who wouldn't want a game with constant updates, expansions, and the expectation the game will be around for years? Plus, casual gamers are the new 'majority' of online gamers, and most of them are also not looking for 'group-content only'... they want something they can jump on, finish in under an hour, and log out. Heck, with some MMOs, it can take that long just to PUG queue for an instance.

So in short... I think ZOS made the right decision in designing the game to be mostly soloable content, I just think their "end game" ideas fell short, most likely because they expected to have the game on both PC and console around the same time- not for console to take an extra year in development. Thus, some things were rushed to appease the PC crowd while the rest of the development team finished console development. Hopefully now that this is done, they can get back to designing proper 'end game' soloable material.

adriant1978

Elloa wrote: »

@adriant1978 In case your message is an answer to mine, I'm not assuming anything.

No, it wasn't a direct reply to you. I was talking generally about the assumption that "MMO players" want a rich and informative UI, and "TES players" want a minimalist UI with no numbers and feedback.

I consider myself very much a "TES player" but I still feel this game is lacking in the amount of feedback and information it gives you.

DaveTheMinion

MMORPG means Massively multiplayer online role-playing game or there about, but in todays world it probably means Massively moaning over role playing game

The Uninvited

ADarklore wrote: »

You do realize that Dark Anchors SCALE based upon how many players are taking part?

LolWut???

Ranique

The Uninvited wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

You do realize that Dark Anchors SCALE based upon how many players are taking part?

LolWut???

They actually do. although it is a sorry ass attempt on scaling. But when you solo there is 1 bosslike up and 3-4 adds (at the same time). It scales up with 10 players to 2-3 bosslike and 6-10 adds. So there is some scaling, but it is very ineffective.

Rune_Relic

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I think one of the reasons you don't see a lot of the features you're asking for is -because- they (the Devs) want to encourage diversity.

By keeping things more ambiguous on a base level (but allowing add-ons) you maintain a certain vaguery which encourages experimentation and exploration.

As soon as actual hard numbers start flashing across the screen it'll push players toward pigeon-holing certain classes to certain play styles. It'll be easier to say this is better than that because just look at the numbers.

I can understand why folks don't like it that way, and if you're one of those folks, you've got option for add-ons. I can also see why the Devs like it without those features; it makes min/maxing harder.

Min maxing would be a pointless exercise if the game was balanced.
No skill would be FOTM.
Every skill would be purely situational.

The fact is people experience the game.. with others.
They then notice how other are performing better.
They then wonder why they are performing better.
They then start hunting though the numbers for an answer to that imbalance.
The min/maxer is born.

The min/maxer is a self-fulfilling prophecy of an imbalanced game.
There would be no minimum or maximum with a balanced game.
Any benefit would have am equally detrimental cost that negates it.

AaronLannister

.

AaronLannister

Elloa wrote: »

RazzPitazz wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

Also because I think it's a very valid point, a console player mentioned in another thread that without the numbers it is almost impossible to theorycraft builds on console. Crunching the numbers, testing everything out, this vs that, is what some people find fun in a game.

Makes me curious if @Deltia or @Atropos knows if anyone on their sites contribute builds that they have put together addon-less and remain viable

@Elloa doesn't use add ons, but I do not know if she builds on her own or with help.

I do not play with addons, simply because it is not needed to be a good player and I've always dreamt to play a MMORPG without a heavy interface like in every other MMO. I'm creating my own builds and I do not need any sort of number or DPS meters to know if I'm healing well, dispelling correctly or doing enough damage, because all the informations I need are already in the game as visual clues.
Well, to be fair I'm not PVPing and I'm not doing rush-run to beat the leader boards. But I'm decent enough to claim and prove that addons are not needed to be a good player and get the job done.

Since early beta I've been a strong defenser of the NON-ADDONS using. I would have wished that addons would have been forbidden.Why? Because we have the chance to play a wonderful game that allow a different kind of gameplay, where you do not need to rely on numbers, icons, texts to play, understand what's going on and be good. FOR ONCE, we had a game free of all that mess. For me it was a blessing! Because I hate numbers, it doesn't help me. It mess up my screen, distract me, and make me do more easily mistakes. Not everyone is working the same way. Not everyone play the same way. Not everyone need the same informations to be a good player.

What you do not realise is the fact that the important part of the community begging for all those UI changes have actually ruined the game for many other players. Because today, a lot of players do believe they need addons to be a good player. They even do not TRY to play the game as it was originaly intended: a more instinctive, more action-based experience.
Some players, some guilds to impose their views on other players. Do you imagine this! Guilds enforcing the use of DPS meters on their members? Isn't it very sad? What if the player is good enough without it! Isn't that all what's needed?

If a game is designed with certain rules, its you, the player supposed to follow the rules. The rules are made to give a challenge to overcome.
By refusing to play ESO without all you usual MMO UI, you are refusing to play the rules, you are refusing to play the game, you are refusing to overcome the challenge, and to better yourself..


I really hope that Zenimax will not implement the addons UI in their game. Because if they do that, they may stop to devellop the visual clues in game. Its easier to pop up numbers on a screen than to work out a boss animation or a spell effect that would give the information. And that would actually force players to have a UI activated. So by asking Zenimax to add this UI features, you may ruin the game for other players that were enjoying the game differently.

The addon system is the best compromise between tow different style of gamers as it still allow player the choice to play the game as it was designed to be played, or to use the addons and simplify the challenge for them.
I really hope that Zenimax will not abandon the original design of the game, because there is actually many players that enjoy to play without the messy and ugly interface of usual MMO, and want to get immersed both in the world and in the action.



I'll always be there playing the game without addons. And if Zenimax add some UI features in the game, I'll play without them aswell. Because I want to enjoy the game with all its beauty. Because I want to fight and be a good player by observing the combat, not my screen. And I'll continue to prove that addons are not needed, and the experience of ESO without addons is a great experience worth to be tried. I'll be there to show that there is not a single way to be a good players, but that you have different options.



For your information, this my video "TIPS to play without ADDONS"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyiePwDtdE8

I can see your point.
but it still doesn't excuse them from omitting text chat on consoles.

The Uninvited

Ranique wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

You do realize that Dark Anchors SCALE based upon how many players are taking part?

LolWut???

They actually do. although it is a sorry ass attempt on scaling. But when you solo there is 1 bosslike up and 3-4 adds (at the same time). It scales up with 10 players to 2-3 bosslike and 6-10 adds. So there is some scaling, but it is very ineffective.

Ah, I was thinking about level scaling. Unfortunately the scaling you mentioned doesn't mean "more players = more chance on a General", or does it?

Attorneyatlawl

Elloa wrote: »

RazzPitazz wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

Also because I think it's a very valid point, a console player mentioned in another thread that without the numbers it is almost impossible to theorycraft builds on console. Crunching the numbers, testing everything out, this vs that, is what some people find fun in a game.

Makes me curious if @Deltia or @Atropos knows if anyone on their sites contribute builds that they have put together addon-less and remain viable

@Elloa doesn't use add ons, but I do not know if she builds on her own or with help.

I do not play with addons, simply because it is not needed to be a good player and I've always dreamt to play a MMORPG without a heavy interface like in every other MMO. I'm creating my own builds and I do not need any sort of number or DPS meters to know if I'm healing well, dispelling correctly or doing enough damage, because all the informations I need are already in the game as visual clues.
Well, to be fair I'm not PVPing and I'm not doing rush-run to beat the leader boards. But I'm decent enough to claim and prove that addons are not needed to be a good player and get the job done.

Since early beta I've been a strong defenser of the NON-ADDONS using. I would have wished that addons would have been forbidden.Why? Because we have the chance to play a wonderful game that allow a different kind of gameplay, where you do not need to rely on numbers, icons, texts to play, understand what's going on and be good. FOR ONCE, we had a game free of all that mess. For me it was a blessing! Because I hate numbers, it doesn't help me. It mess up my screen, distract me, and make me do more easily mistakes. Not everyone is working the same way. Not everyone play the same way. Not everyone need the same informations to be a good player.

Your post illustrates my OP perfectly. By the way, your entire post could be simply dismissed with just one word word: "options". However, I'd rather actually respond to you, so let's look at history a bit here...

With how open ESO's build system is, and the game providing virtually no combat info and little guidance to them, people ran into trouble and died... a lot. So the whole firestorm demanding VR's be removed came about, and ZOS stated they intended to eventually remove them. In the interim, they nerfed the bosses, XP requirements, and every single mob in them with a large global down-scaling (HP, damage, healing, etc.) to essentially match the trivial difficulty of the pre-veteran rank zones (1-50 (VR1)). This has lead to its own problems, but the VR complaints were never really about the leveling speed as if you were clearing the zones efficiently it was about the same timespan to reach VR10 (the maximum) at launch as it was to go from 1-50(VR1).

The truth of the matter still is, and always has been, that the VR complaints were not due to leveling speed, but difficulty: most people simply weren't able to handle the VR zones, even though they weren't very tough at launch, simply because they required you to have a build above the quality level of "broken" .

And that's where not having numbers leads you: spend enough time trial-and-error'ing things out, and yes, you can at least "clear" it. However, you can't come close to playing the game as designed in the gameplay to actually compete, which is what an online MMORPG is essentially about at its core: you're competing when trading and selling items in the marketplace, you're competing when leveling to get stronger and do so faster at launch, you're competing when in PVP directly against others, you're competing when running dungeons and trials directly against others for leaderboards, and basically anything you can think of in the game other than roleplaying in a tavern (not that I have anything against that).

Now, it's actually much faster than ever before and a rather trivial amount of time other than the forced questing of the Main Story pre-veteran ranks along with the mandatory cadwell's silver completion at around 20 hours tops (these quests actually end up taking as much time as the leveling process itself would otherwise, all on their own... literally, about half of the total, and most of that is from having to watch dialogue sequences that are unskippable and other storyline roleplay by the NPC's that we've all mostly seen 10 times before by now).

The problem many players run into is they enjoy questing, especially new players who may not have seen it 10 times before as older players have since the story is enjoyable enough the first time ... and the questing is very unrewarding XP-wise for them on the turn-ins with the vast majority of it coming from the mob kills along the way that many of them skip by sneaking around or only killing what agro's them in their way to the silver quest arrow, and even then is far less than you earn by simply killing mobs repeatedly in the first place. Yet, without having information available to know this, the wrong things were blamed and the urban legend of ESO having "the longest leveling ever known to gaming" became purported and oft-parroted quote-unquote "fact". PVP remains a completely unviable source of XP to level the veteran ranks, alongside leaving you still having to finish the main story and cadwell's silver in any case .

Now you can probably see where the problem stemmed from, eh? It doesn't matter if you only care to "finish the story quests" in a game with millions of players, most of which care for more than just seeing the sights. And the magic of toggleable options is that if you don't want what personally you feel is a "cluttered screen", you can simply turn them off at will. Instead, you insist that your way of enjoying the game is forced on everyone else, whether they like it or not, because of some notion of anyone not agreeing just having no clue what's "good for them". And like it or not... without numbers, you have quite literally zero objective information to tell you whether you're a "good player" or not.

A user interface is not the gameplay. It simply provides a window to it, the same way your web browser provides a pretty graphical page for typing a post into a basic text box instead of a DOS prompt. I don't like Chrome much, myself... but then again, who cares? Chrome isn't being forced on me, so I'm perfectly happy with anyone using it if they want. The relation there is that in ESO, that isn't an option: just one portion of players' preferences have been completely and utterly forced upon everyone else.

Deyirn

I'm sure as Hell this ain't no Skyrim Online.

Reeko wrote: »

You guys do know about the co-op mods for skyrim right?

Which aren't official so it doesn't count. Like Morrowind Overhaul 3.0, it's a mod, but it's not official so it's not the real thing.

GreySix

Reeko wrote: »

You guys do know about the co-op mods for skyrim right?

Yeah, at best they suck, and at worst they don't work at all.

Pallmor

When I press the triangle button, my sword goes swooooosh!

dday3six

Elloa wrote: »

RazzPitazz wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

Also because I think it's a very valid point, a console player mentioned in another thread that without the numbers it is almost impossible to theorycraft builds on console. Crunching the numbers, testing everything out, this vs that, is what some people find fun in a game.

Makes me curious if @Deltia or @Atropos knows if anyone on their sites contribute builds that they have put together addon-less and remain viable

@Elloa doesn't use add ons, but I do not know if she builds on her own or with help.

I do not play with addons, simply because it is not needed to be a good player and I've always dreamt to play a MMORPG without a heavy interface like in every other MMO. I'm creating my own builds and I do not need any sort of number or DPS meters to know if I'm healing well, dispelling correctly or doing enough damage, because all the informations I need are already in the game as visual clues.
Well, to be fair I'm not PVPing and I'm not doing rush-run to beat the leader boards. But I'm decent enough to claim and prove that addons are not needed to be a good player and get the job done.

Since early beta I've been a strong defenser of the NON-ADDONS using. I would have wished that addons would have been forbidden.Why? Because we have the chance to play a wonderful game that allow a different kind of gameplay, where you do not need to rely on numbers, icons, texts to play, understand what's going on and be good. FOR ONCE, we had a game free of all that mess. For me it was a blessing! Because I hate numbers, it doesn't help me. It mess up my screen, distract me, and make me do more easily mistakes. Not everyone is working the same way. Not everyone play the same way. Not everyone need the same informations to be a good player.

What you do not realise is the fact that the important part of the community begging for all those UI changes have actually ruined the game for many other players. Because today, a lot of players do believe they need addons to be a good player. They even do not TRY to play the game as it was originaly intended: a more instinctive, more action-based experience.
Some players, some guilds to impose their views on other players. Do you imagine this! Guilds enforcing the use of DPS meters on their members? Isn't it very sad? What if the player is good enough without it! Isn't that all what's needed?

If a game is designed with certain rules, its you, the player supposed to follow the rules. The rules are made to give a challenge to overcome.
By refusing to play ESO without all you usual MMO UI, you are refusing to play the rules, you are refusing to play the game, you are refusing to overcome the challenge, and to better yourself..


I really hope that Zenimax will not implement the addons UI in their game. Because if they do that, they may stop to devellop the visual clues in game. Its easier to pop up numbers on a screen than to work out a boss animation or a spell effect that would give the information. And that would actually force players to have a UI activated. So by asking Zenimax to add this UI features, you may ruin the game for other players that were enjoying the game differently.

The addon system is the best compromise between tow different style of gamers as it still allow player the choice to play the game as it was designed to be played, or to use the addons and simplify the challenge for them.
I really hope that Zenimax will not abandon the original design of the game, because there is actually many players that enjoy to play without the messy and ugly interface of usual MMO, and want to get immersed both in the world and in the action.



I'll always be there playing the game without addons. And if Zenimax add some UI features in the game, I'll play without them aswell. Because I want to enjoy the game with all its beauty. Because I want to fight and be a good player by observing the combat, not my screen. And I'll continue to prove that addons are not needed, and the experience of ESO without addons is a great experience worth to be tried. I'll be there to show that there is not a single way to be a good players, but that you have different options.



For your information, this my video "TIPS to play without ADDONS"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyiePwDtdE8

Managing Buffs and Debuffs without a visible timer is basically having to count them in your head. The Auras, if they show up, and they don't always, offer no info as to duration left. So to me the game does not offer all the information needed. Another example of this is executes. Targets display no signs to indicate when they are at 49% or 24% health. Yet there are skills that are intented to be used at those points.

I remember hearing in the Timeout from Tamriel about VR's that it took you close to a year to reach VR 14. Now if that is the case, and the game has had numerous content nerfs to make it easier. Isn't it possible that you might have been playing content after those nerfs, and thus were in part successful because of them?

In your video linked here, you mention how some Guilds are requiring addons, and said they shouldn't do this. Well, I believe those Guilds want to push content, so they want to be as efficient as possible. There seemed to be a disconnect in that motivation for you, which leads me to believe that isn't something that interests you. I feel case can be made that if you played content after it was made easier, perhaps you would not have been able be success, lacking the info to have a tighter rotation that would have been needed when the content was more difficult.

Sallington

OP, are you near Philly so I can buy you a beer?

Xendyn

I'll just leave this right here

amgame308_ESO

The OP effectively has asked for a WOW reskin. Let's follow the "industry standards" and make the game familiar enough so we can keep the industry standard player demographic happy. This isn't an industry standard MMO. The reason VR levels were a challenge was because no one took the time to figure out the mechanics. No one uses crowd control. Everyone has been conditioned to stack and burn. It just doesn't work right out of the gate. Taunting is different in this game, you as a dps or healer have to block, sprint, dodge roll in combat to avoid mechanics. I've been dungeons for 4 hours trying to get geared VR14 players through vet Spindle. You can't cater to people who just don't get it.

Actually complaining about the combat mechanics? This MMO has the most robust combat mechanics I've seen in any RPG type game. For Talos sake do not go back to some watered down graphic spreadsheet with a button rotation.

This game is for gamers, not industry standard MMO players. I appreciate and applaud the creators of his game dared to do something different.

Attorneyatlawl

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

The OP effectively has asked for a WOW reskin.
Actually complaining about the combat mechanics? This MMO has the most robust combat mechanics I've seen in any RPG type game. For Talos sake do not go back to some watered down graphic spreadsheet with a button rotation.

Too lazy to re-write, so I'm just copy-pasta'ing :

Attorneyatlawl wrote:

A user interface is not the gameplay. It simply provides a window to it, the same way your web browser provides a pretty graphical page for typing a post into a basic text box instead of a DOS prompt. I don't like Chrome much, myself... but then again, who cares? Chrome isn't being forced on me, so I'm perfectly happy with anyone using it if they want. The relation there is that in ESO, that isn't an option: just one portion of players' preferences have been completely and utterly forced upon everyone else.

WOW isn't WOW because of the interface. WOW is WOW because of its gameplay. Likewise with ESO, except in ESO's case the interface obfuscates the combat mechanics enough from most people that it damages the gameplay instead of allowing it to happen as it normally would .

Sallington wrote: »

OP, are you near Philly so I can buy you a beer?

Couple of states away... . Thanks for the post!