Elder Scrolls Online is an MMORPG, and denying that is where most of its issues spring from.

Smiteye · July 2015

Elloa wrote: »

RazzPitazz wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

Also because I think it's a very valid point, a console player mentioned in another thread that without the numbers it is almost impossible to theorycraft builds on console. Crunching the numbers, testing everything out, this vs that, is what some people find fun in a game.

Makes me curious if @Deltia or @Atropos knows if anyone on their sites contribute builds that they have put together addon-less and remain viable

@Elloa doesn't use add ons, but I do not know if she builds on her own or with help.

I do not play with addons, simply because it is not needed to be a good player and I've always dreamt to play a MMORPG without a heavy interface like in every other MMO. I'm creating my own builds and I do not need any sort of number or DPS meters to know if I'm healing well, dispelling correctly or doing enough damage, because all the informations I need are already in the game as visual clues.
Well, to be fair I'm not PVPing and I'm not doing rush-run to beat the leader boards. But I'm decent enough to claim and prove that addons are not needed to be a good player and get the job done.

Since early beta I've been a strong defenser of the NON-ADDONS using. I would have wished that addons would have been forbidden.

For your information, this my video "TIPS to play without ADDONS"

selfpromotionspam

I cannot put much stock in your anti-numbers stance given it took you a year and you needed the game nerfed to get to v14... because you don't like gameplay info. Silly arguments like this is why it took so long for zenimax to put in those third person camera options we begged for last year because it would hurt the 'mersion genuine elder scrolls experience that your self promotion video extols some purported virtues of, even though I just wanted to not be motion sick when playing because of how zoomed in and narrow the view was with the low thirdperson FOV.

Ysne58 · July 2015

There are lots more addons than just for combat numbers.

My most recent favorite one is Votan's Fisherman, which helps me identify a fishing spot after I've found it, so I don't waste quite as much bait. It also labels which bait is for which type when I'm selecting bait.

I also use several addons that help me with not missing things. Skyshards, Lorebooks, Destinations, Lost Treasure, and Harven's quick journal.

I use the Research Grid so I can know at a glance what a character has researched. Master Merchant is really useful for helping me with pricing in both buying and selling.

Another of my alltime favorites is Greymind's Quickslot Bar -- which actually allows me to use the quickslot, I don't seem to have the dexterity to use the quickslot bar when I'm fighting.

I also have Sishu's LUA memory and a couple of crafting ones that help with provisioning, alchemy and enchanting.

I don't PvP and I have a somewhat workable build for PvE that is good support in groups and allows me to solo much of the content that is meant to be solo'd.

I do have mixed feelings about having this stuff native to the ui because I seriously doubt the devs could have been as creative with these features as the authors of these really nice add ons. With everything else they do, they simply don't have the time.

Having said that, I have watched a number of PvP videos and I can see why an option for the information to be natively available in game would really be helpful to the PvP players. @Attorneyatlawl does have some very good reasoning and support for this argument. Making it an option would also meet the needs for the people who wish to follow @Elloa 's play style.

As far as console goes, I think it would be absolutely fantastic if ZOS could somehow bring those addon options to both the PS4 and the XBOXone. That would go along way towards resolving many of the complaints I'm seeing. Oh, and the chat box for typed chat really should have been available to them at the start.

amgame308_ESO · July 2015

The interface does not obfuscate the gameplay, people simply have not taken the time to understand it. ESO has its own language. You want to speak native industry standard MMO and ESO doesn't do that. All the information you need to be successful of not a pro at this game is already there if you take the time to learn the language.

AaronLannister · July 2015

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

The interface does not obfuscate the gameplay, people simply have not taken the time to understand it. ESO has its own language. You want to speak native industry standard MMO and ESO doesn't do that. All the information you need to be successful of not a pro at this game is already there if you take the time to learn the language.

which is why the majority of the top PC users use Damage Numbers and this is how they theorycraft to min/max.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Ysne58 wrote: »

There are lots more addons than just for combat numbers.

I do have mixed feelings about having this stuff native to the ui because I seriously doubt the devs could have been as creative with these features as the authors of these really nice add ons. With everything else they do, they simply don't have the time.

As far as console goes, I think it would be absolutely fantastic if ZOS could somehow bring those addon options to both the PS4 and the XBOXone. That would go along way towards resolving many of the complaints I'm seeing. Oh, and the chat box for typed chat really should have been available to them at the start.

/Agree. I snipped a few parts of the post to prevent the whole "Tower of Quotes" syndrome that crops up in these threads, but those parts were good as well

. The nice part about the native elements is that you wouldn't then take out the addon API, but simply leave that part as-is and allow, just as now, addons to alter how the native elements work (a prime example of a this would be the "pChat" addon which handles a huge amount of chat box customization including colors, timestamps (including different color for the timestamp from the rest of the line so it's easy to distinguish), allowing you to customize the name that appears in chat for each guild and even number it so that your third guild has a "3-" in front of it (for Order of Mundus, I just have mine show "4-Mundus" so it takes up less horizontal room... likewise for "Elder Scrolls Exchange" on my mule account, I have it just say "2-ESE", which not only makes short messages not take up two lines because it hits the end of the chat box, but also makes it much more readable and tells me which number to type if I want to talk there), save chat history through reloading your UI and logging, etc.

The same sorts of customizations and functionality extensions would not only be doable, but would crop up from authors, to even further improve native elements. Those act as a baseline and put everyone on a level playing field, at least. I mean this in the nicest possible way, but it's patently unfair to go fight someone in Cyrodiil who doesn't even know how much he hits for

.

Sykis · July 2015

I'm not opposed to the use of addons if they are there as a platform for more information. I do not agree that the game should enhance the UI for the purpose of stopping the use of addons though as that takes away from player experience. As mentioned several times, keeping game design vague and allowing options is a great way for flexibility in game for players to experience the game their way. Adding UI features to a game from a development standpoint, would eventually make the game require the use of those features to some extent. The reason is anything added to the core development of this game takes time and money to implement and developers have to justify the cost of those features. It's cheaper to allow an addon interface to allow players the option without having to change the game at its core. I play with a few addons really just a mini map and a bag addon that changes the visual display of my bag. Not bing into a lot of scrolling numbers.

I do understand some wanting combat numbers for several purposes and while I have considered it I prefere not to use those addons. Only time I have is when doing the death recap and I die to two attacks that look visually identical yet one hits for a marginal amount of damage and the other (named differently) smacked me for 4 times the damage though I saw no difference in animation. I could see merit in seeing numbers and comparing it to the mobs I run into so I know how much each hit is hitting me for. Either way I am for keeping the interface as is and allowing addons so ppl have a choice.

As fast as ppl in game setting there own standards for what will allow you to be in group, nothing will stop that from happening. Some Alpha personality will always try and set what they think is a standard and addons/UI/gear animation is not going to stop that. These are the people in any MMO I have played that I avoid all together.

amgame308_ESO · July 2015

AaronLannister wrote: »

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

The interface does not obfuscate the gameplay, people simply have not taken the time to understand it. ESO has its own language. You want to speak native industry standard MMO and ESO doesn't do that. All the information you need to be successful of not a pro at this game is already there if you take the time to learn the language.

which is why the majority of the top PC users use Damage Numbers and this is how they theorycraft to min/max.

So if everything is already available why are we having this discussion?

Steelshiv · July 2015

Is there a tl;dr version of this?

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Sykis wrote: »

As fast as ppl in game setting there own standards for what will allow you to be in group, nothing will stop that from happening. Some Alpha personality will always try and set what they think is a standard and addons/UI/gear animation is not going to stop that. These are the people in any MMO I have played that I avoid all together.

So instead of taking charge and making your own group to play how you enjoy, you take charge and insist that others shouldn't be allowed to do that themselves instead?

adriant1978 · July 2015

Steelshiv wrote: »

Is there a tl;dr version of this?

Some people want a less minimalist UI with more textual cues and numerical info, others think this would be a terrible thing. Me I just think some options would be nice so that I can see the info I need when I need it.

GreySix · July 2015

adriant1978 wrote: »

Steelshiv wrote: »

Is there a tl;dr version of this?

Some people want a less minimalist UI with more textual cues and numerical info, others think this would be a terrible thing. Me I just think some options would be nice so that I can see the info I need when I need it.

Concur.

Never understood why so many vehemently oppose more options within a video game.

dday3six · July 2015

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

The OP effectively has asked for a WOW reskin. Let's follow the "industry standards" and make the game familiar enough so we can keep the industry standard player demographic happy. This isn't an industry standard MMO. The reason VR levels were a challenge was because no one took the time to figure out the mechanics. No one uses crowd control. Everyone has been conditioned to stack and burn. It just doesn't work right out of the gate. Taunting is different in this game, you as a dps or healer have to block, sprint, dodge roll in combat to avoid mechanics. I've been dungeons for 4 hours trying to get geared VR14 players through vet Spindle. You can't cater to people who just don't get it.

Actually complaining about the combat mechanics? This MMO has the most robust combat mechanics I've seen in any RPG type game. For Talos sake do not go back to some watered down graphic spreadsheet with a button rotation.

This game is for gamers, not industry standard MMO players. I appreciate and applaud the creators of his game dared to do something different.

I'm not an industry standard MMO player. This is infact my 2nd official MMO, but frankly as a gamer I like to optimize. That cannot be properly done when the game withholds critical info.

Minimalistic might be different, but I have trouble applauding it when a game includes multiple buffs and debuffs without visible timers. Has executes based on percentage but does nothing to show when they are most effective. Missmanagement of those things leads to DPS loss, yet the game still features DPS checks during Boss encounters. Bosses also have phases based on remaining health, yet again you don't know what their health is. All those things are commonplace in MMO's I might add, and the only thing ESO does different is have a bare bones HUD. I just don't find play this like an MMO, but without the info an MMO would give to be commendable. I find it lazy infact.

Oh, and teaching someone is about figuring out how they learn and presenting the info in a way that makes sense to them. In your example, the players where able to be geared, and make it to VR 14. Personally your anedote comes off to be more failings or the teacher rather then the students. Seems like when you throw around words like "catering" you knew how to tell them, but you didn't know how to help them understand.

Sykis · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Sykis wrote: »

As fast as ppl in game setting there own standards for what will allow you to be in group, nothing will stop that from happening. Some Alpha personality will always try and set what they think is a standard and addons/UI/gear animation is not going to stop that. These are the people in any MMO I have played that I avoid all together.

So instead of taking charge and making your own group to play how you enjoy, you take charge and insist that others shouldn't be allowed to do that themselves instead?

Negative, I simply do not enjoy someone else telling me how I should be playing if I met the standard for which is required to play. And to be more specific, I'm not saying I refuse to listen to the leader of the group if they have a good strategy and motivate the people to be better and help teach those around them a different or better way to do thinks. If this morphs into a demanding and totalitarian point of view (my way or the highway) then I avoid them.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Sykis wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Sykis wrote: »

As fast as ppl in game setting there own standards for what will allow you to be in group, nothing will stop that from happening. Some Alpha personality will always try and set what they think is a standard and addons/UI/gear animation is not going to stop that. These are the people in any MMO I have played that I avoid all together.

So instead of taking charge and making your own group to play how you enjoy, you take charge and insist that others shouldn't be allowed to do that themselves instead?

Negative, I simply do not enjoy someone else telling me how I should be playing if I met the standard for which is required to play. And to be more specific, I'm not saying I refuse to listen to the leader of the group if they have a good strategy and motivate the people to be better and help teach those around them a different or better way to do thinks. If this morphs into a demanding and totalitarian point of view (my way or the highway) then I avoid them.

So, rather, as I said you prefer to insist that it's your way or the highway (i.e. you leave the group) instead of just making your own group without the player-driven rules in the first place. Jerks are jerks regardless of what game you play... just like in real life, we haven't banned butter knives because some bad apples use them to attack people

.

waterfairy · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ESO is an Elder Scrolls game.

Only by name because they share the same parents of the real Elder Scrolls but they're so different that they seem like an adopted *** who isn't worthy of the same name.

RazzPitazz · July 2015

Sorry @Elloa, didn't mean to drag you into a *** storm

Elloa wrote: »

RazzPitazz wrote: »

Psychobunni wrote: »

Also because I think it's a very valid point, a console player mentioned in another thread that without the numbers it is almost impossible to theorycraft builds on console. Crunching the numbers, testing everything out, this vs that, is what some people find fun in a game.

Makes me curious if @Deltia or @Atropos knows if anyone on their sites contribute builds that they have put together addon-less and remain viable

@Elloa doesn't use add ons, but I do not know if she builds on her own or with help.

I do not play with addons, simply because it is not needed to be a good player and I've always dreamt to play a MMORPG without a heavy interface like in every other MMO. I'm creating my own builds and I do not need any sort of number or DPS meters to know if I'm healing well, dispelling correctly or doing enough damage, because all the informations I need are already in the game as visual clues.
(Snip)

Since early beta I've been a strong defenser of the NON-ADDONS using. I would have wished that addons would have been forbidden.Why? Because we have the chance to play a wonderful game that allow a different kind of gameplay, where you do not need to rely on numbers, icons, texts to play, understand what's going on and be good. FOR ONCE, we had a game free of all that mess. For me it was a blessing! Because I hate numbers, it doesn't help me. It mess up my screen, distract me, and make me do more easily mistakes. Not everyone is working the same way. Not everyone play the same way. Not everyone need the same informations to be a good player.

What you do not realise is the fact that the important part of the community begging for all those UI changes have actually ruined the game for many other players. Because today, a lot of players do believe they need addons to be a good player. They even do not TRY to play the game as it was originaly intended: a more instinctive, more action-based experience.
Some players, some guilds to impose their views on other players. Do you imagine this! Guilds enforcing the use of DPS meters on their members? Isn't it very sad? What if the player is good enough without it! Isn't that all what's needed?

I really hope that Zenimax will not implement the addons UI in their game. Because if they do that, they may stop to devellop the visual clues in game. Its easier to pop up numbers on a screen than to work out a boss animation or a spell effect that would give the information. And that would actually force players to have a UI activated. So by asking Zenimax to add this UI features, you may ruin the game for other players that were enjoying the game differently.

I can understand the stance of less clutter. How do you feel about some of the simpler quality of life changes though? @Attorneyatlawl has pointed out a few important ones, quoted below, simply to make game play easier to process outside of the main UI, such as a reply button for the mail or more information on sales in your message to name a few.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Direct UI features ranging from needing addons to have basic game functions, to addons not being allowed to even try to take up the slack for many options such as nameplate/guildtag toggles, to outright bugs (group leader bug... stuck health bars... cursor mode randomly triggering after closing UI windows and requiring a /reloadui... party members entering combat as you load a new zone causing it to hang up and give you an endless load screen) along with the lack of general usability, have also been a bear .

Community features like optional toggles for name/guild tags and player titles, being able to recognize/see friends and guildmates in the area readily, the deathspam channel in Cyrodiil which gave it a feeling of activity and life, simple things like showing what sold in a guild kiosk mail or having a "Reply" button to message someone back in the mailbox.

Consoles not only have all of the issues above... but can't use addons due to Sony/Microsoft platform restrictions in the first place, and don't have even a chat window you can pull up when in say your inventory or on its own screen, instead relying solely on voice chat which has a myriad number of its own inherent issues when being used as the only real form of communication. Both text chat and voice chat have their uses including some overlapping ones, but neither can really handle everything the best.

(Obligatory "ZOS plz fix!" goes here)

While I do not feel the main UI has hindered my enjoyment of the game I cannot deny that there are toggle options that need to be present and directly supported by the company, especially since console players do not have access to these options ever.

amgame308_ESO · July 2015

adriant1978 wrote: »

Steelshiv wrote: »

Is there a tl;dr version of this?

Some people want a less minimalist UI with more textual cues and numerical info, others think this would be a terrible thing. Me I just think some options would be nice so that I can see the info I need when I need it.

Others believe all the information you need is already available and don't want to go back to staring at a bank of 30 buttons on UI then having to go through a post meta analysis. I do enough spreadsheets at work. I love the game for the game, not the meta. You already have plenty of graphical queues that tell you what players and mobs are casting and you get a post death summary showing what killed you. Some want hard numbers, that isn't going to help you if you don't know how to manage your stamina while blocking and dodge rolling.

Psychobunni · July 2015

Elloa wrote: »

I do not play with addons, simply because it is not needed to be a good player and I've always dreamt to play a MMORPG without a heavy interface like in every other MMO. I'm creating my own builds and I do not need any sort of number or DPS meters to know if I'm healing well, dispelling correctly or doing enough damage, because all the informations I need are already in the game as visual clues.
Well, to be fair I'm not PVPing and I'm not doing rush-run to beat the leader boards. But I'm decent enough to claim and prove that addons are not needed to be a good player and get the job done.

Since early beta I've been a strong defenser of the NON-ADDONS using. I would have wished that addons would have been forbidden.Why? Because we have the chance to play a wonderful game that allow a different kind of gameplay, where you do not need to rely on numbers, icons, texts to play, understand what's going on and be good. FOR ONCE, we had a game free of all that mess. For me it was a blessing! Because I hate numbers, it doesn't help me. It mess up my screen, distract me, and make me do more easily mistakes. Not everyone is working the same way. Not everyone play the same way. Not everyone need the same informations to be a good player.

What you do not realise is the fact that the important part of the community begging for all those UI changes have actually ruined the game for many other players. Because today, a lot of players do believe they need addons to be a good player. They even do not TRY to play the game as it was originaly intended: a more instinctive, more action-based experience.
Some players, some guilds to impose their views on other players. Do you imagine this! Guilds enforcing the use of DPS meters on their members? Isn't it very sad? What if the player is good enough without it! Isn't that all what's needed?

If a game is designed with certain rules, its you, the player supposed to follow the rules. The rules are made to give a challenge to overcome.
By refusing to play ESO without all you usual MMO UI, you are refusing to play the rules, you are refusing to play the game, you are refusing to overcome the challenge, and to better yourself..

I really hope that Zenimax will not implement the addons UI in their game. Because if they do that, they may stop to devellop the visual clues in game. Its easier to pop up numbers on a screen than to work out a boss animation or a spell effect that would give the information. And that would actually force players to have a UI activated. So by asking Zenimax to add this UI features, you may ruin the game for other players that were enjoying the game differently.

The addon system is the best compromise between tow different style of gamers as it still allow player the choice to play the game as it was designed to be played, or to use the addons and simplify the challenge for them.
I really hope that Zenimax will not abandon the original design of the game, because there is actually many players that enjoy to play without the messy and ugly interface of usual MMO, and want to get immersed both in the world and in the action.

I'll always be there playing the game without addons. And if Zenimax add some UI features in the game, I'll play without them aswell. Because I want to enjoy the game with all its beauty. Because I want to fight and be a good player by observing the combat, not my screen. And I'll continue to prove that addons are not needed, and the experience of ESO without addons is a great experience worth to be tried. I'll be there to show that there is not a single way to be a good players, but that you have different options.

So much "I" and "me".... options would still let "you" have the game you want, while not ruining it for others. It's a very selfish box you are trying to keep an MMO, dependant upon appealing to many player types to stay in business long term.

"Not everyone is working the same way. Not everyone play the same way. Not everyone need the same informations to be a good player". Well yes, that is kind of the whole point of options. Because not everyone is the same.

"What you do not realise is the fact that the important part of the community begging for all those UI changes have actually ruined the game for many other players" What "you" do not realize is that players like you, those that fought to remove even the UI that was here, and continue to fight against choices ruined the game for many other players by simply denying them an option.

"Do you imagine this! Guilds enforcing the use of DPS meters on their members?" PC has had addons as fast as creators could get them out there. Despite people screaming that this complete falsehood would become the norm, I've yet hear of even one one guild demand this of their players. It is the epitome of chicken little, the sky has not fallen. Even if one crazy guild did, players have 5 choices and can choose another.

"By refusing to play ESO without all you usual MMO UI, you are refusing to play the rules, you are refusing to play the game, you are refusing to overcome the challenge, and to better yourself.." Crock, ESO is not life. It's not something 99.9% of players will play and put on a resume. Most people play games simply for fun. For some people after a long day of work or life, they simply want to chill out and play. They don't want to spend hours in one fight "looking for clues" as to what works vs what doesn't. Why isn't their wants from a multi-player game just as valid as yours? For consoles, it's even worse. How can there be a "Deltia" of PS4/XBOX if he/she can't even utilize the tools?

"The addon system is the best compromise between two different style of gamers as it still allow player the choice to play the game as it was designed to be played, or to use the addons and simplify the challenge for them." It's not the best system at all because console players don't even have the choice, and pc players are co-dependent upon the addon developers developing and remaining with the game to keep them updated and repaired with each change to ESO.

Added in as an option, off by default allows you and those like you to have it your way, all platforms ability to utilize the tools, no fear of creators quitting/failing to repair in timely manner after update, and has mass appeal. Options are the best compromise.

dday3six · July 2015

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

The interface does not obfuscate the gameplay, people simply have not taken the time to understand it. ESO has its own language. You want to speak native industry standard MMO and ESO doesn't do that. All the information you need to be successful of not a pro at this game is already there if you take the time to learn the language.

Where is the info to tell me how much time my buff or DOT has left? Cause to be Pro need to know just how many actions I can do before needing to reapply. Clipping and letting those fall off is not Pro.

Also how do I know what health an enemy is at. Being Pro demands that I use executes as soon as possible. Too early or too late is DPS loss.

So tell me about how the game tells you everything you need to be Pro?

Smiteye · July 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

So much "I" and "me".... options would still let "you" have the game you want, while not ruining it for others. It's a very selfish box you are trying to keep an MMO, dependant upon appealing to many player types to stay in business long term.

"Not everyone is working the same way. Not everyone play the same way. Not everyone need the same informations to be a good player". Well yes, that is kind of the whole point of options. Because not everyone is the same.

"What you do not realise is the fact that the important part of the community begging for all those UI changes have actually ruined the game for many other players" What "you" do not realize is that players like you, those that fought to remove even the UI that was here, and continue to fight against choices ruined the game for many other players by simply denying them an option.

"Do you imagine this! Guilds enforcing the use of DPS meters on their members?" PC has had addons as fast as creators could get them out there. Despite people screaming that this complete falsehood would become the norm, I've yet hear of even one one guild demand this of their players. It is the epitome of chicken little, the sky has not fallen. Even if one crazy guild did, players have 5 choices and can choose another.

"By refusing to play ESO without all you usual MMO UI, you are refusing to play the rules, you are refusing to play the game, you are refusing to overcome the challenge, and to better yourself.." Crock, ESO is not life. It's not something 99.9% of players will play and put on a resume. Most people play games simply for fun. For some people after a long day of work or life, they simply want to chill out and play. They don't want to spend hours in one fight "looking for clues" as to what works vs what doesn't. Why isn't their wants from a multi-player game just as valid as yours? For consoles, it's even worse. How can there be a "Deltia" of PS4/XBOX if he/she can't even utilize the tools?

"The addon system is the best compromise between two different style of gamers as it still allow player the choice to play the game as it was designed to be played, or to use the addons and simplify the challenge for them." It's not the best system at all because console players don't even have the choice, and pc players are co-dependent upon the addon developers developing and remaining with the game to keep them updated and repaired with each change to ESO.

Added in as an option, off by default allows you and those like you to have it your way, all platforms ability to utilize the tools, no fear of creators quitting/failing to repair in timely manner after update, and has mass appeal. Options are the best compromise.

The whole "I" and "me" thing is no surprise from youtube entertainers like that and Deltia.

Psychobunni · July 2015

Smiteye wrote: »

The whole "I" and "me" thing is no surprise from youtube entertainers like that and Deltia.

I wouldnt know to be honest. I prefer information in written format. To much opinion gets injected with videos, be it even a simply tone of the voice that may sway a viewer. (yes, I am this way in real life too, I don't watch news, I check various print sources (well online) and compare notes) and then form my opinion.

I've actually done the same with ESO builds on Deltia's site that weren't just video, Tamriel Foundry, etc, and then tested "recommendations" for my fit and what I enjoyed.

Obviously, I really like "information"

lol

dday3six · July 2015

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

Steelshiv wrote: »

Is there a tl;dr version of this?

Some people want a less minimalist UI with more textual cues and numerical info, others think this would be a terrible thing. Me I just think some options would be nice so that I can see the info I need when I need it.

Others believe all the information you need is already available and don't want to go back to staring at a bank of 30 buttons on UI then having to go through a post meta analysis. I do enough spreadsheets at work. I love the game for the game, not the meta. You already have plenty of graphical queues that tell you what players and mobs are casting and you get a post death summary showing what killed you. Some want hard numbers, that isn't going to help you if you don't know how to manage your stamina while blocking and dodge rolling.

Perhaps people have trouble with resource management because they don't know how much of said resource they have without an actual numerical value displayed.

Elloa · July 2015

AaronLannister wrote: »

I can see your point.
but it still doesn't excuse them from omitting text chat on consoles.

This is an entierly different topic than the ones I brought up. But yes I agree with you.

@Attorneyatlawl @Smiteye @dday3six

First of all, it toke me maybe one year to level my character, but this has nothing to do with my capability to do content and play the game. I play ESO since july 2013. I played/tested most of end game content on PTS before it was released. So I actually healed Veteran City of Ashes when my main character was still lvl 40 or something.
For my main character I just toke my time. Because I enjoyed it that way.

When I say its possible to play without addons, I'm obviously not speaking about players finishing the main story and all the quest. I'm speaking about players doing the most difficult content. Maybe not beating Hodor on the leaderboard. Cause for that you need to have the same tools than them. But that's another point.

Let's imagine a moment that they were no addons on PC.
- Every players would be equal, and every players could do the same content with same tools. Would be 100% fair
- Need to know when your debuff/buff in your head to know when it run out? CHeck the spell effect or count in your head. Indeed. As its the same for everyone, the ones that are the most skilled at the mini game of paying attention to the spell effect WIN!

I would have actually prefered the game to be that way. But countrary as some other I'M NOT IMPOSING my views on others. I'm just promoting the non addons gameplay as most "exposed" players are pro-addons or atleast using them, someone need to take this stance and show to the public that its perfectly doable to play without addons and be a good player that actually get the job done in the most difficult content. I need to be there for the players that are NOT LIKE YOU. For some poeple it doesn't work to see 25241 on their screen. For some poeple it mean nothing. The information will not be processed through their brain under the stress of the combat. But they will understand better to see the life bar disminishing, or see the boss surrounded by smoke.

It's false to claim that it is needed to have numbers, percentage, icons to be good. Is it easier? Maybe it is easier: especially when you got a big ULTIMATE READY. Yes that's obviously easier. Its like DeadlyBossMode "RUN AWAAAAYYY LITTLE GIRL" you even do not need to read anything you are just warned that you need to escape something the boss is doing! Brainless addon.
But it still possible, enjoyable to play the game without UI and players need to be told so and encouraged to atleast try.

I read your post @Attorneyatlawl but I'm really dubtiful than the NERF made by Zenimax was due to players unable to play the game because they didn't had numbers on their screen. Zenimax nerfed the content because a lot of players never played a MMO before, or because they were used to be spoon feed by Blizzard (and others)
It's not that hard to understand when to block, when to dodge, and if you are doing enough damage without having an addon telling you so.
In my opinion, Zenimax nerfed content because a large part of the playing community is used to easy and are impatient, unable to provide effort to succeed a game. Also, console. (hypotesis) In the case of ESO its very sad cause the game went from a decent difficulty, with good challenge to something ridiculously easy.

I'm totally agreing with poeple claiming ESO has become too easy. But that's not related to addons imho.

Why I'm defending my stance so fiercly? I understand than a lot of you wants addons. Its okay. Really. Just enjoy yourself the way you want.
BUT please do not enforce your gamestyle to other players. I still would like players, like me, who prefer a clean, pure interface, can continue to be a good player. And we would not be able to be a good player if Zenimax stop to devellop the visual clues of the combat in future content. That's my whole worrie and my whole point.
ESO is the ONLY GAME with minimalist interface. And you may have no idea of how important and pleasant it is for some players to be able to do HARD content without having the feeling of being in a pilot ***.

TDLR:
- I'm not a clueless player. I actually played ESO since Alpha3 and tested all difficult content (beside trials) before it was released. On life I did everything except Sanctum Ophidia and Vet DSA that I didn't tried yet.
- If they were no addons every players would be equal and would compete with fairness with each others. I'd have loved that, but I ACCEPT its not that way, as I accept differences.
- Not every players works well with the same kind of informations. For some players visual clue works better than numbers to fastly annalyse
- Be careful to not impose your view on others. We have the right to exist and enjoy ESO as much as Pro-addons users

@RazzPitazz
I was mostly speaking about COMBAT Addons. The inventory/trading guild/crafting interface definitively need improvement.

Elloa · July 2015

@Psychobunni

Okay so you enjoyed to disprove me on each point, in a relatively unpleasant way to conclude "Options are the best compromise." Which is exactly what I've been saying.

Smiteye wrote: »

The whole "I" and "me" thing is no surprise from youtube entertainers like that and Deltia.

Entertainer like "that". Could hardly be more insulting without being rude. Thanks a lot >:(

Elsonso · July 2015

adriant1978 wrote: »

Steelshiv wrote: »

Is there a tl;dr version of this?

Some people want a less minimalist UI with more textual cues and numerical info, others think this would be a terrible thing. Me I just think some options would be nice so that I can see the info I need when I need it.

Options are wonderful, but in any PVP situation, I believe that everyone should have exactly the same information on the screen, whether they want this level of information or not.

In PVE this is not as important, but I believe that some of the combat add-ons provide the potential for a tactical advantage in PVP, and either the add-ons need to be incorporated into the base game UI or turned off for everyone.

Y'all should thank your lucky stars that I am not on the ESO dev team.

Psychobunni · July 2015

Elloa wrote: »

@Psychobunni

Okay so you enjoyed to disprove me on each point, in a relatively unpleasant way to conclude "Options are the best compromise." Which is exactly what I've been saying.

Smiteye wrote: »

The whole "I" and "me" thing is no surprise from youtube entertainers like that and Deltia.

Entertainer like "that". Could hardly be more insulting without being rude. Thanks a lot >:(

My apologies, I was sincerely trying not to be rude or unpleasant about it. Merely to point out there is an opposite side of the coin to quite a bit you said.

BaconMagic · July 2015

Or just play on console and have no UI options and just get slaughtered by VR14 transfers all day. So many feels ITT.

Valnas · July 2015

the original dev's of this game made a pretty compelling combat experience, but the Ui has effectively smothered it, and repeated performance degredations from what we saw at release.

ZOS_MichelleA · July 2015

Hi there, everyone. Please take this post as a reminder to stay friendly and respectful of one another while debating. Any more personal jabs will be removed and actioned accordingly. Posters are more than welcome to disagree, but they need to do so constructively and without making personal attacks. Thank you for your cooperation.

Elloa · July 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

@Psychobunni

Okay so you enjoyed to disprove me on each point, in a relatively unpleasant way to conclude "Options are the best compromise." Which is exactly what I've been saying.

Smiteye wrote: »

The whole "I" and "me" thing is no surprise from youtube entertainers like that and Deltia.

Entertainer like "that". Could hardly be more insulting without being rude. Thanks a lot >:(

My apologies, I was sincerely trying not to be rude or unpleasant about it. Merely to point out there is an opposite side of the coin to quite a bit you said.

Yeah maybe I'm on my bad part of the month. My apologies

I just want to be clear. Personaly I'd have prefered the game to be without addons for everyone. So its more fair.
But i'm not saying I want the game to be like I'd have prefered.

I just want to continue to play like I enjoy to play, because there is no other option on the market for a immersive MMO experience in a fantasy world, with good and excitting combat. And I'm not the only one.