Player Discussion: Adding Enforcers to the Justice System

Tandor · May 2015

I'm wholly opposed to the principle of providing PvP penalties for PvE crimes in PvE areas.

I have no problem at all with Enforcers being introduced in PvP areas such as Cyrodil or other instanced areas, or indeed on separate PvP servers.

However, introducing open world PvP masquerading as part of the Justice System will only result in griefing and lagging, and the game needs neither. It may well be attractive to a few players, but it will drive a lot more away - unless it is restricted to separate PvP areas. For most supporters, the novelty will very likely soon wear off (like the present Justice System I imagine), but by then the damage will have been done.

It is not an answer to say that if you don't want to suffer the consequences, don't commit crimes. They are PvE crimes, and they should have PvE consequences. Denying those who have no interest in PvP the opportunity to take part in PvE activities such as the Justice System and including in due course the related activities and quests of the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood cannot be justified.

I personally hope the Enforcers element of the Justice System never happens, at least not in relation to PvE crimes in PvE areas.

BBSooner · May 2015

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

@BBSooner I take the liberty of assuming that you like PvP and can't wait until the day that this might happen.. The reason that I say you can't compare the two is (as you already know I assume) that the guards are only npcs.. They don't have player skills, champion points, potions and so on.. They won't wait for you in a group so that they can kill you as soon as you appear.. As others have mentioned before me, this system is likely to attract the kind of "PvP'ers" that find it highly amusing to do this all day long just for the fun they get in bugging other players

You contend that you are alone vs the many. I contend that PvP players will exist on both sides of the spectrum, and there will be opportunity for Outlaws to get the best of the Enforcers equally.

I also contend that accruing a bounty/level of heat is 100% the active decision of the outlaw, and that the outlaw has the entire power as to whether a confrontation is even possible to happen.

Daemons_Bane · May 2015

@Tandor, I'm glad that someone can put together a better sentence than me

you hit it pretty much on the spot

Enodoc · May 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

The situation is intrinsically unfair PVP. The thief is already dealing with environment, stealth mechanics and NPCs... then WHAM. Joe badcop swoops in. Boy he is so cool.

In the case of an enforcer descending on an outlaw, it's entirely within the outlaws control whether they accrue a bounty. The difference between a guard coming in for the kill or an enforcer coming in for the kill is moot - the outlaw failed and is experiencing the repercussions. Infact, I'd argue that being caught by a player is preferrable to being caught by a guard, simply for the fact that players can be killed.

Not only that, but if you get killed by a player, you don't lose any gear durability. Therefore a death-by-player is much less of a problem than a death-by-guard.

Besides, if you're a good criminal you'll avoid getting a bounty, and definitely avoid going as far into a bounty as Kill on Sight, so you wouldn't be able to be killed by an Enforcer anyway.

This situation also assumes that Joe badcop isn't open to attack initiated from an outlaw player. I would imagine there would be a lot of back and forth, and a lot of confrontations started by an outlaw character looking to prey on an unsuspecting enforcer.
It seems you are quick to contend that the enforcers are the 'bully' in the majority of the situations, and I don't think that's the case.

I agree. I think it's much more likely that Outlaws will be ganking Enforcers, since Enforcers are actively PvP-flagging themselves against any Outlaws, while Outlaws would only be PvP-flagged against Enforcers under whatever contrived system they introduce based on Bounty/Heat/KoS status, comments like these on the forums, and their own internal testing.

Daemons_Bane · May 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

Besides, if you're a good criminal you'll avoid getting a bounty, and definitely avoid going as far into a bounty as Kill on Sight, so you wouldn't be able to be killed by an Enforcer anyway.

It shouldn't have to depend on that.. There should not be PvP elements in this PvE mechanic.. Give the guards a much needed upgrade and let the PvP interested people stay in Cyrodill

BBSooner · May 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

I agree. I think it's much more likely that Outlaws will be ganking Enforcers, since Enforcers are actively PvP-flagging themselves against any Outlaws, while Outlaws would only be PvP-flagged against Enforcers under whatever contrived system they introduce based on Bounty/Heat/KoS status, comments like these on the forums, and their own internal testing.

This exactly. If/when the Enforcer system is released, I will happily be the Outlaw (either solo or in a pack) hunting unsuspecting Enforcers. Conversely, now my good characters won't have to stand by and shrug as another player runs through town murdering innocents.

Daemons_Bane · May 2015

But what of those of us that are not geared for PvP, because we don't like it? We will be gangbanged by top tuned players who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than attack players who enjoy their PvE..

BBSooner · May 2015

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

But what of those of us that are not geared for PvP, because we don't like it? We will be gangbanged by top tuned players who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than attack players who enjoy their PvE..

Don't steal - or don't get caught.

And don't murder.

Your pve is unchanged, there is no quest (even the 2 or 3 that require breaking and entering) that automatically puts a bounty on your head.

Assuming that the system is stacked against a demographic and won't have any restrictions/mechanisms to prevent abuse (especially when we have no details about it) is fear mongering for the sake of it. The system is about cause and effect, its about giving your actions weight. It's about risk vs reward. It's about consequences. It is the perfect opportunity to blur the lines between PvE and PvP, especially considering that the player has to make a conscious decision to participate.

traigusb14_ESO2 · May 2015

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

But what of those of us that are not geared for PvP, because we don't like it? We will be gangbanged by top tuned players who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than attack players who enjoy their PvE..

Yes.

The Whole theft system will basically become PVP not PVE limiting the people able to enjoy it to PVP players.

Honestly, I don't think enforcers are going to ever show up. The feature curt on this was just in the right spot to doom them. I'm just posting here to show my continued non-support

if we look at the DLC plans stated, we see level scaling of DLC zones etc. So it looks like devs are trying to make features available to as many players as possible. I don't think they will rope off stealing ( An Elder Scrolls staple from single player games ) to PVP players only.

It is far easier to do PVP-centric feature like Imp city, dueling ,arenas. Less bad feelings, easier to balance. Though Imp City seems to be borderline last I saw... more of a PVE reward for PVP playing.

Daemons_Bane · May 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

Don't steal - or don't get caught.

It is the perfect opportunity to blur the lines between PvE and PvP

The first line is just pure lack of reasonable argument

I am not stealing your stuff, so there is absolutely no reason for you to be after me.. I am stealing PvE stuff, and should be under the PvE law enforcement system.. If I stole stuff from your home, you are free to try and catch me.. What fun would this be for new payers with no bonusses to their ledgermain skills.. They would get permanently ganked and lose interest.. Secondly, it's only the perfect opportunity if you want the two game types mixed, which a lot of us won't.. I say for the 1000th time, if this system gets implemented' it should be voluntarily, like actively flagging, like the example I posted earlier in the thread

Gidorick · May 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

I'm wondering if PVP should be done on a sort of contract/bounty. A player with heat and or a bounty is reported to a player who is an enforcer and that enforcer goes and gets THAT player. Not just any outlaw. That specific one.

This would solve that issue of people abusing this system and going on wild free for alls. 1V1 pvp. Get a contract. Fill that contract. Well, TRY to fill that contract. Those two can fight eachother. No one else can attack them and they can attack no other player.

In the contract players are given the race, gender, class of the player, and what they are wearing (green heavy Cuirass with red trimming/mask of cheerful slaughter). The enforcer is given a map marker of the location of the outlaw at the time the player retrieved the contact. Players can ask guards if they've seen their contract and the outlaw marker will be updated.

If the outlaw gets away by paying their bounty, the contract is up. Contracts are picked up in town from a guard and they can be for ANY player with a bounty within the vicinity. Players who have contracts out on them are not aware. Enforcers have tabbards so outlaws can be aware of who MIGHT be out there looking for them.

Two players will not be able to orchestrate pvp with one another.

Daemons_Bane · May 2015

Agreed, a bounty system would make it rather exciting.. You could even put in some kind of Enforcer scoreboard, to see who gets the most criminals

BBSooner · May 2015

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Don't steal - or don't get caught.

It is the perfect opportunity to blur the lines between PvE and PvP

The first line is just pure lack of reasonable argument I am not stealing your stuff, so there is absolutely no reason for you to be after me.. I am stealing PvE stuff, and should be under the PvE law enforcement system.. If I stole stuff from your home, you are free to try and catch me.. What fun would this be for new payers with no bonusses to their ledgermain skills.. They would get permanently ganked and lose interest.. Secondly, it's only the perfect opportunity if you want the two game types mixed, which a lot of us won't.. I say for the 1000th time, if this system gets implemented' it should be voluntarily, like actively flagging, like the example I posted earlier in the thread

It's not unreasonable though. Don't break the law. You run the risk of confrontation by breaking the law. Risk vs Reward. Also, since when does a person have to be the offended party for them to assist in apprehending an individual? Especially if the assistant is hired as a supplimental guard ... an "enforcer" if you will.

And no, that scenario is far fetched to say the least. An Outlaw is not an outlaw unless they 1.) Have a bounty and 2.) Have heat. They would be killed once, bounty taken, and considered "upstanding" again until they break the law again.

This is also assuming there isn't:
- a Bounty threshold before an enforcer can participate
- a Heat threshold before an enforcer can participate
- a limit to the number of times a single enforcer can apprehend a player for bounty
- a level requirement/phasing system in place.

Again, very likely, the enforcers will not be an undisputed force to be reckoned with. It's not 1 vs the world.

Daemons_Bane · May 2015

@BBSooner I'm just gonna end it here.. Never gonna get anywhere

BBSooner · May 2015

DaemoBane wrote: »

@BBSooner I'm just gonna end it here.. Never gonna get anywhere

Agreed. Take care.

BBSooner · May 2015

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

But what of those of us that are not geared for PvP, because we don't like it? We will be gangbanged by top tuned player. who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than attack players who enjoy their PvE..

Yes.

The Whole theft system will basically become PVP not PVE limiting the people able to enjoy it to PVP players.

Honestly, I don't think enforcers are going to ever show up. The feature curt on this was just in the right spot to doom them. I'm just posting here to show my continued non-support

if we look at the DLC plans stated, we see level scaling of DLC zones etc. So it looks like devs are trying to make features available to as many players as possible. I don't think they will rope off stealing ( An Elder Scrolls staple from single player games ) to PVP players only.

It is far easier to do PVP-centric feature like Imp city, dueling ,arenas. Less bad feelings, easier to balance. Though Imp City seems to be borderline last I saw... more of a PVE reward for PVP playing.

They may not, but consider my posts as "continued support" none the less. There is no pure PvP in this game, and the newest large update to PvP is shockingly PvE heavy. I see no reason why PvE shouldn't have PvP splashed in to a tiny aspect when PvP shares it's only update with PvE content. Especially when it adds another layer to a players decision making process - creating a deeper experience.

lecarcajou_ESO · May 2015

My apologies if similar ideas have already been voiced here (the tabard seems in the same vein)...

Some sort of flagging mechanic should solve the problem, no? Obviously, we don't want high-level outlaws going medieval on innocent lower-level bystanders and the like, nor on enforcers who could clearly not stand up to them. So, if you want to hunt a bounty, and spot a criminal you think you can take, put on your righteous hat and try... if you think you'll be annihilated, call in a posse or stay out of it.

If on the other hand you're a low-level criminal and a high-level do-gooder spots and crushes you, well, that's just what you deserve, you rebel scum!

I recall that EvE Online has a working cops-and-robbers system, bounties and all. Not quite sure how they worked out the details, though.

P.S.: Oh yeah, I just remembered... EvE had lawless zones without NPC police (=guards) where pirates and bounty hunters could slug it out to their heart's desire (in higher security sectors, the invincible police would swiftly vaporize aggressors of either color). Woe to the lowbies or undergeared who dare tread there. Obviously, none of that would apply to ESO—unless maybe the bounty hunting took place exclusively in PvP zones?

Tandor · May 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

But what of those of us that are not geared for PvP, because we don't like it? We will be gangbanged by top tuned players who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than attack players who enjoy their PvE..

Don't steal - or don't get caught.

And don't murder.

Your pve is unchanged,

You've just changed it. You've said PvEers shouldn't steal or murder - but those are PvE crimes and can currently quite rightly be dealt with by PvE penalties. The Justice System has added PvE content to the game which should not be changed in the way you propose. Telling people not to use the Justice System if they don't like PvP is changing the PvE.

BBSooner · May 2015

Tandor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

But what of those of us that are not geared for PvP, because we don't like it? We will be gangbanged by top tuned players who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than attack players who enjoy their PvE..

Don't steal - or don't get caught.

And don't murder.

Your pve is unchanged, [/b]

You've just changed it. You've said PvEers shouldn't steal or murder - but those are PvE crimes and can currently quite rightly be dealt with by PvE penalties. The Justice System has added PvE content to the game which should not be changed in the way you propose, telling people not to use the Justice System if they don't like PvP is changing the PvE.

No, it remains unchanged (in the sense that every single quest, zone, etc in the game is still available to you) - it's my fault for presenting a fragmented statement. Crime still has consequences, and of which stealing and murdering provide the harshest bounties.

The consequences change, sure. You are either accosted, chased, and are either killed by or escape from an NPC that you cannot kill and will always know your escape path, or you are accosted, chased, and are either killed by or escape from a player who you actually can kill and will be able to outsmart in an escape.

I get the fear people have (even if I think it's unfounded) that a mean ol' player will come along and 'camp' your character, jump up and down on it, whatever. There are dozens of ways it can be implemented that prevent this from happening, some of which are currently already in the PvE portion of the game.

Jitterbug · May 2015

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

I know I'm the negative one now.. But from what I've read on the forums and from the announcements, I don't see this happening.. I really belive it will bring more grief than joy.. Of course there are players who wish for, and would enjoy this open world pvp, since that is what it really is.. But I think that the larger majority of the "criminal comunity" would be sad to see this change as they don't enjoy free roaming pvp.. We do this to relax, and getting killed over and over when you finally found that piece of purpme loot, is just not relaxing.. I'd much rather see a good and thorough upgrade od the guards, than having bloodlusty players with nothing else to do, sitting on every corner and standing 10 man strong outside the refuges..

Now let the "then just don't steal" guys get started..

I hope this gets here at some point but I think you are right.
The PvE thieving works very well.

What I would like is skirmishes on the streets of Wayrest.
In Defiance a part of the map can sometimes turn to PvP and you can either sign up for that PvP via the menu or if you run into the area you will get prompted.
Maybe something like that could work here?

lathbury · May 2015

my ideas on the subjectforums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/171580/why-i-think-they-shouldnt-release-the-thieves-and-assassins-guilds-anytime-soon#latest

Tandor · May 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

But what of those of us that are not geared for PvP, because we don't like it? We will be gangbanged by top tuned players who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than attack players who enjoy their PvE..

Don't steal - or don't get caught.

And don't murder.

Your pve is unchanged, [/b]

You've just changed it. You've said PvEers shouldn't steal or murder - but those are PvE crimes and can currently quite rightly be dealt with by PvE penalties. The Justice System has added PvE content to the game which should not be changed in the way you propose, telling people not to use the Justice System if they don't like PvP is changing the PvE.

No, it remains unchanged (in the sense that every single quest, zone, etc in the game is still available to you) - it's my fault for presenting a fragmented statement. Crime still has consequences, and of which stealing and murdering provide the harshest bounties.

The consequences change, sure.

No, you're missing my point. At present I have PvE content in the form of stealing from NPCs or murdering them. Adding Enforcers introduces PvP into PvE content and the way you say I can avoid that is by no longer doing the PvE content i.e. stealing from NPCs and murdering them. That is changing the PvE content and making it PvP or nothing.

BBSooner · May 2015

Tandor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

But what of those of us that are not geared for PvP, because we don't like it? We will be gangbanged by top tuned players who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than attack players who enjoy their PvE..

Don't steal - or don't get caught.

And don't murder.

Your pve is unchanged, [/b]

You've just changed it. You've said PvEers shouldn't steal or murder - but those are PvE crimes and can currently quite rightly be dealt with by PvE penalties. The Justice System has added PvE content to the game which should not be changed in the way you propose, telling people not to use the Justice System if they don't like PvP is changing the PvE.

No, it remains unchanged (in the sense that every single quest, zone, etc in the game is still available to you) - it's my fault for presenting a fragmented statement. Crime still has consequences, and of which stealing and murdering provide the harshest bounties.

The consequences change, sure.

No, you're missing my point. At present I have PvE content in the form of stealing from NPCs or murdering them. Adding Enforcers introduces PvP into PvE content and the way you say I can avoid that is by no longer doing the PvE content i.e. stealing from NPCs and murdering them. That is changing the PvE content and making it PvP or nothing.

It simply isn't. We have no details as to when an Enforcer is allowed to intervene, and how long the window is available. You are making assumptions based on details we haven't been given.

Edit: For all we know, Enforcers cannot intervene until a player both reaches a certain bounty and has reached a certain heat after making the PvE decision to run from the guard instead of pay the bounty. There are too few details to be making the statements you are making. Or players will have to both have an Outlaw Tabard and Enforcer Tabard equipped before they can view each other as enemies. Or any other multitude of changes that could potentially let players continue to participate in the Justice system. We know too little for you to be accusing a player-enforcer system of taking away your content.

oddavi · May 2015

Enforcers should have to be inside the enforcer tower to put or remove the tabard

traigusb14_ESO2 · May 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

But what of those of us that are not geared for PvP, because we don't like it? We will be gangbanged by top tuned player. who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than attack players who enjoy their PvE..

Yes.

The Whole theft system will basically become PVP not PVE limiting the people able to enjoy it to PVP players.

Honestly, I don't think enforcers are going to ever show up. The feature curt on this was just in the right spot to doom them. I'm just posting here to show my continued non-support

if we look at the DLC plans stated, we see level scaling of DLC zones etc. So it looks like devs are trying to make features available to as many players as possible. I don't think they will rope off stealing ( An Elder Scrolls staple from single player games ) to PVP players only.

It is far easier to do PVP-centric feature like Imp city, dueling ,arenas. Less bad feelings, easier to balance. Though Imp City seems to be borderline last I saw... more of a PVE reward for PVP playing.

They may not, but consider my posts as "continued support" none the less. There is no pure PvP in this game, and the newest large update to PvP is shockingly PvE heavy. I see no reason why PvE shouldn't have PvP splashed in to a tiny aspect when PvP shares it's only update with PvE content. Especially when it adds another layer to a players decision making process - creating a deeper experience.

I've got nothing against PVP, or having more PVP content. I think this particular idea (enforcers) is a massive trainwreck waiting to happen with bad feelings and behavior all over the place. I'd much rather see PVP devs working on Arena 1v1 3v3 etc content for example.

I was kinda disappointed when they started describing Imp City as more of a crafting station reward for Cyrodil once you cleaned it out after capture..

Nestor · May 2015

Enforcers should be in Cyrodiil only. That is the PvP zone and that is where PvP should be.

lathbury · May 2015

I wouldnt want to see the enforcers/ guards just thrown in if done correctly it could be awesome. I will die. I am not so hot on the ole PVP at the moment but hey that's where not getting caught comes in right?

oddavi · May 2015

Why does it have to be a problem, enforcers can only kill you if you have a kos bounty and otherwise you can simply avoid them.
and you have to get caught multiple times stealing to be kos.

Tandor · May 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

But what of those of us that are not geared for PvP, because we don't like it? We will be gangbanged by top tuned players who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than attack players who enjoy their PvE..

Don't steal - or don't get caught.

And don't murder.

Your pve is unchanged, [/b]

You've just changed it. You've said PvEers shouldn't steal or murder - but those are PvE crimes and can currently quite rightly be dealt with by PvE penalties. The Justice System has added PvE content to the game which should not be changed in the way you propose, telling people not to use the Justice System if they don't like PvP is changing the PvE.

No, it remains unchanged (in the sense that every single quest, zone, etc in the game is still available to you) - it's my fault for presenting a fragmented statement. Crime still has consequences, and of which stealing and murdering provide the harshest bounties.

The consequences change, sure.

No, you're missing my point. At present I have PvE content in the form of stealing from NPCs or murdering them. Adding Enforcers introduces PvP into PvE content and the way you say I can avoid that is by no longer doing the PvE content i.e. stealing from NPCs and murdering them. That is changing the PvE content and making it PvP or nothing.

It simply isn't. We have no details as to when an Enforcer is allowed to intervene, and how long the window is available. You are making assumptions based on details we haven't been given.

Edit: For all we know, Enforcers cannot intervene until a player both reaches a certain bounty and has reached a certain heat after making the PvE decision to run from the guard instead of pay the bounty. There are too few details to be making the statements you are making. Or players will have to both have an Outlaw Tabard and Enforcer Tabard equipped before they can view each other as enemies. Or any other multitude of changes that could potentially let players continue to participate in the Justice system. We know too little for you to be accusing a player-enforcer system of taking away your content.

Again, you miss my point. I wasn't responding to speculation about how Enforcers might be introduced, I was responding to your comment on it.

You stated that if I didn't want to PvP I could avoid it by not stealing or murdering. You then said that my PvE is thereby unchanged. My point is that by having to drop an existing part of the PvE content my PvE would be changed. Whether that is how it works out in practice if Enforcers are introduced is immaterial to the point that you are wrong to claim that I can drop the PvE part of the Justice System without my PvE being changed.

BBSooner · May 2015

Nestor wrote: »

Enforcers should be in Cyrodiil only. That is the PvP zone and that is where PvP should be.

Would be even worse than making it open world with no restrictions.

Tandor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

But what of those of us that are not geared for PvP, because we don't like it? We will be gangbanged by top tuned players who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than attack players who enjoy their PvE..

Don't steal - or don't get caught.

And don't murder.

Your pve is unchanged, [/b]

You've just changed it. You've said PvEers shouldn't steal or murder - but those are PvE crimes and can currently quite rightly be dealt with by PvE penalties. The Justice System has added PvE content to the game which should not be changed in the way you propose, telling people not to use the Justice System if they don't like PvP is changing the PvE.

No, it remains unchanged (in the sense that every single quest, zone, etc in the game is still available to you) - it's my fault for presenting a fragmented statement. Crime still has consequences, and of which stealing and murdering provide the harshest bounties.

The consequences change, sure.

No, you're missing my point. At present I have PvE content in the form of stealing from NPCs or murdering them. Adding Enforcers introduces PvP into PvE content and the way you say I can avoid that is by no longer doing the PvE content i.e. stealing from NPCs and murdering them. That is changing the PvE content and making it PvP or nothing.

It simply isn't. We have no details as to when an Enforcer is allowed to intervene, and how long the window is available. You are making assumptions based on details we haven't been given.

Edit: For all we know, Enforcers cannot intervene until a player both reaches a certain bounty and has reached a certain heat after making the PvE decision to run from the guard instead of pay the bounty. There are too few details to be making the statements you are making. Or players will have to both have an Outlaw Tabard and Enforcer Tabard equipped before they can view each other as enemies. Or any other multitude of changes that could potentially let players continue to participate in the Justice system. We know too little for you to be accusing a player-enforcer system of taking away your content.

Again, you miss my point. I wasn't responding to speculation about how Enforcers might be introduced, I was responding to your comment on it.

You stated that if I didn't want to PvP I could avoid it by not stealing or murdering. You then said that my PvE is thereby unchanged. My point is that by having to drop an existing part of the PvE content my PvE would be changed. Whether that is how it works out in practice if Enforcers are introduced is immaterial to the point that you are wrong to claim that I can drop the PvE part of the Justice System without my PvE being changed.

And again, you miss my relation to the actual topic of enforcers by insisting that "changing PvE is change". Correct, change is change. However there is no evidence at this time that adding Enforcers would impact a player limiting themselves to exclusively PvE content.