Player Discussion: Adding Enforcers to the Justice System

Gidorick

I was hoping we could have a discussion on adding Enforcers to the Justice System.

For those of you who aren't aware, at one point the Justice System was going to include open world Outlaw vs Enforcer PVP. Just as you can be an outlaw and gain a bounty, it was planned for players to be enforcers who could bring outlaw players to justice.

The following is is from elderscrollsonline.info

Outlaws vs Enforcers

Justice System adds two opposite sides: Outlaws and Enforcers. Player can join any side. If you want to steal and murder – become Outlaw. If you want to protect citizens and catch criminals – join Enforcers. You can switch between these roles anytime.

Becoming Enforcer is easy: you need to find one of Enforcer Towers (these towers are usually located near big cities) and talk with NPC there. After you declare yourself as Enforcer you will get a special tabard. Put it on and you will be able to see acts of crimes and bounty level of all players.

Enforcers are patrolling cities looking out for Outlaws and trying to stop them. If Enforcer finds an Outlaw he can stop him from reaching outlaw refuge and selling his stolen stuff. Refuge is a safe zone where criminals can’t be attacked and stopped.

How to stop criminal? Enforcer can attack criminal engaging him in PvP fight. Yes, developers finally added PvP outside of Cyrodiil! If Enforcer wins he can loot corpse of his enemy player and take all stolen goods. These goods must be returned to one of Enforcer Towers. When Enforcer returns stolen goods he receives reward for that.

But an outlaw can resurrect and try to return his stuff back before Enforcer reaches his tower. That’s how this system works in general. Outlaws are hunting easy victims and Enforcers are hunting Outlaws.

Being Enforcer is not a boring duty: you can attack Outlaws and you also have access to special bandit caves. When you travel around the world you come across special clues that give you hints to location of bandit caves with chests and other objects. These chests are filled with stolen items. You can take these items and return to Tower getting reward in return.

Which role is more interesting: being a sheriff or a criminal? It’s you to decide. Elder Scrolls Online doesn’t lock you within one role. You can change the role any time and try both sides. We recommend to try both sides because you will understand behavior of Outlaws and Enforcers. This will help you to act much better when you choose your side.

http://elderscrollsonline.info/justice-system

Keep in mind, currently there seems to be absolutely NO future plans to add Enforcers.

The greatest issue I see with the Enforcer system is how they could prevent a group of enforcers from just camping outside of outlaw dens, killing whomever approaches.

What other issues do you see with this system?
What solutions could there be to these issues?

ThatHappyCat

The primary issue that must be solved is how to prevent high level enforcers from ganking in low level zones, and high level outlaws from being unstoppable in low level zones.

You can institute level limits but that's boring and restrictive.

Gidorick

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

The primary issue that must be solved is how to prevent high level enforcers from ganking low level outlaws.

Could the damage from each side be leveled to each side.

Example.
Level 10 with 1000 health attacks and hits for 100 damage... 10% of the attackers health. That level 10 attacks a level 40 with 10,000 health so the level 10 causes 10% damage to the targets health, dealing 1000 damage. If the level 40 attacks and hits for 5000 health (50% of the attackers health) only 500 damage is dealt, which is 50% of the target's health.

JensenAK

Or like add lines of jurisdiction like different police bureaus for different levels Zones.

DarthRupert

My belief was that this was likely to come with VR removal and has always been "Part 2" of the Justice System Update. They've even mentioned possibly looking at dueling once the PvP aspect of the justice system was implemented.

Unfortunately I have don't have the time to look back and find the sources for the things i've posted. Sorry

I would say wait until after console launch when ZoS is suppose to put out content once again. Also Quake Con has always been a big news/update event for ESO so watch for updates from July 23 - 26 for this year. Adding PvP to a non - PvP area is rarely an easy thing to do, while keeping everything balanced. So for now we'll just have to wait for more info. ZoS has always been fairly vocal about the updates they have planned; then tend to go silent until 2 months before they add it.

RazzPitazz

Gidorick wrote: »

The greatest issue I see with the Enforcer system is how they could prevent a group of enforcers from just camping outside of outlaw dens, killing whomever approaches.

What other issues do you see with this system?
What solutions could there be to these issues?

One possible solution would be to only allow enforcer tabbards within city limits. Each outlaw refugee has both an inner city and outer city entrance. If enforcers were restricted to only one of these areas then it could alleviate this issue since they could only camp one entrance.
1) Inner city;:should enforcers be restricted to inner city this would reduce crime within cities in general as having both players and the guard wAtching would be very high risk. If they were to choose this ZoS would have to increase the reward for loot within the city walls. However, players could simply port to an external way shrine and enter through the outer outlaw refugee entrance, undermining the system itself almost entirely. Additional, should a fight break out in the city it could disrupt other players and even cause undo stress on a players system (PC specifically).
2) Outer city: the guard keep the city, same as always. The players keep the rest of the world. This could potentially balance out as there are significantly fewer players outside the walls than there are within. Should a criminal wish to avoid the enforcer, porting to within the city is necessary and then they must sneak to the respective refuge entrance. The issues here are dualites; deep in the world there is o refuge and a criminal has no safe passage except for luck, as well as deep in the world there is a far smaller chance to encounter a criminal even while the tabbard is worn.

Gidorick wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

The primary issue that must be solved is how to prevent high level enforcers from ganking low level outlaws.

Could the damage from each side be leveled to each side.

Example.
Level 10 with 1000 health attacks and hits for 100 damage... 10% of the attackers health. That level 10 attacks a level 40 with 10,000 health so the level 10 causes 10% damage to the targets health, dealing 1000 damage. If the level 40 attacks and hits for 5000 health (50% of the attackers health) only 500 damage is dealt, which is 50% of the target's health.

Good thought, unfortunately since damage is both percentile and static amounts this specific idea would be prone to many issues. Cyrodil style scaling would work better but ultimately would meet the same fate should a larger battle break out. For this to work all parties would have to be scaled to V14, then the player(s) with more CP would most likely win.

Sausage

I love this idea, but how they can make sure Criminals and Enforced are balanced. I see, if Enforcers are winning, everybody joins them, because everybody wants to be on winning side, same thing for Criminals. Unless they use Phasing and make sure max Enforcer and Criminal is 5 per side, that wouldnt lead the entire zone into chaos.

We need the damn full FFA PVP MMORPG already.

Tavore1138

The big problem I can see is that as of now if another player goes into stealth I can see them while obviously NPCs cannot.

But any PvP justice system becomes stupid if the enforcers can see criminals in stealth automatically, equally if enforcers can just stand around refreshing detect potions it becomes silly.

Somehow when the enforcer tabard goes on then those playing criminals must somehow be as 'blind' as NPCs are to stealthed or invisible players.

Also not sure how you'd prevent stealthed enforcers camping out using inner light or something similar to detect.

Overall the key for this to work is it needs to be fun and competitive not tedious and exploitative.

Daemons_Bane

I know I'm the negative one now.. But from what I've read on the forums and from the announcements, I don't see this happening.. I really belive it will bring more grief than joy.. Of course there are players who wish for, and would enjoy this open world pvp, since that is what it really is.. But I think that the larger majority of the "criminal comunity" would be sad to see this change as they don't enjoy free roaming pvp.. We do this to relax, and getting killed over and over when you finally found that piece of purpme loot, is just not relaxing.. I'd much rather see a good and thorough upgrade od the guards, than having bloodlusty players with nothing else to do, sitting on every corner and standing 10 man strong outside the refuges..

Now let the "then just don't steal" guys get started..

BuggeX

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

I know I'm the negative one now.. But from what I've read on the forums and from the announcements, I don't see this happening.. I really belive it will bring more grief than joy.. Of course there are players who wish for, and would enjoy this open world pvp, since that is what it really is.. But I think that the larger majority of the "criminal comunity" would be sad to see this change as they don't enjoy free roaming pvp.. We do this to relax, and getting killed over and over when you finally found that piece of purpme loot, is just not relaxing.. I'd much rather see a good and thorough upgrade od the guards, than having bloodlusty players with nothing else to do, sitting on every corner and standing 10 man strong outside the refuges..

Now let the "then just don't steal" guys get started..

Well just dont steal no joke aside.

i guess there are 2 flags wath you can set.
Enforcer and criminal.

if you set the flag to ciminal, a enforcer want see you if you in hide.
a enforcer cant attack you until you have a bountry
enforcer have to see you do a crime to get a bountry.

so the System stay like now, just that you dont Play vs stupid npcs

edit: as a crime you may indentify guards, becaus some Special armor wathever,
a guard cant identify a criminal as Long as he doesnt have a bountry, well if a playerguard see the same Player do a crime over and over, he will prob. remember the Name and make Special Attention to him.

edit2: NPCs may also give qs. to enforcers and ciminal.
Ex. Pls secure my hous/chest wathever for x time. at the same time criminals get the other part of the qs.
Steal the item in this chest/hous wathever enforcers have to secure. so basiclly this went a teamplay, criminal1 pull one pguard away and criminal2 can steal the items

Ranique

The issue with this is that the justice system is too much random now. It is very easy to commit a crime by accident. The propose system would add a PvP element to a PvE part of the game. If it would be introduced, it should be fully voluntary and it should not be so easy to be forced into PvP by accident.

BuggeX

Ranique wrote: »

The issue with this is that the justice system is too much random now. It is very easy to commit a crime by accident. The propose system would add a PvP element to a PvE part of the game. If it would be introduced, it should be fully voluntary and it should not be so easy to be forced into PvP by accident.

there is a mod witch help with this, ZOS should implement the mod ingame, just cant remeber the Name of the mod, but it doesnt let you steal until you go in hide or doubletab "E"

Praxxos

DarthRupert wrote: »

I would say wait until after console launch when ZoS is suppose to put out content once again. Also Quake Con has always been a big news/update event for ESO so watch for updates from July 23 - 26 for this year. Adding PvP to a non - PvP area is rarely an easy thing to do, while keeping everything balanced. So for now we'll just have to wait for more info. ZoS has always been fairly vocal about the updates they have planned; then tend to go silent until 2 months before they add it.

Not to forget the E3 like 2 weeks aufter console launch. On the Roleplaying Convention last weekend Matt Frior said that its not an easy thing to add PVP into PVE Zones since there are lots of what they cann "edge cases" to consider.

Don't know if you speak a little german but Matt Frior is speakin in english and @ZOS_KaiSchober translates it as well.

FrozenAnimal wrote: »

http://youtu.be/Eu3u4xq1_FY

Enodoc

I think they've said it's still something they want to do, but only if they can make sure it's done right.

• Enforcers should only be able to attack Outlaws if they have passed the Kill on Sight threshold.
• Otherwise, Enforcers should be able to interact with Outlaws and arrest them.
• You could prevent camping of the Refuge entrances by adding Bouncer/Mercenary NPCs, who would attack Enforcers if they get too close.

Daemons_Bane

Ranique wrote: »

The propose system would add a PvP element to a PvE part of the game.

This, pure and simple is where my issue lies.. I don't enjoy PvP, and I don't want it to be "forced" upon me, just because I want to play a rogue/thief as I have done since Morrowind.. Let the guards catch me if I commit a crime, I don't have issue with that.. I know a lot of people think that it's too easy and all that but that is why I propose to upgrade the guards heavily instead..

Ranique wrote: »

If it would be introduced, it should be fully voluntary and it should not be so easy to be forced into PvP by accident.

And this part also brings forth the suggestion that I have posted before.. If people want to play PvP open world, let them flag for it, and let the rest of us do what we like to do, so that we can play the game as we like it.. It should not be that hard to make an option that lets you be "visible" to the enforcers, so you can all play cops and robbers in peace

Edit: When playing Fallen Earth, the way to engage in open world PvP was to type /pvp in the chat box.. This would flag you up for pvp and enable you to be killed by anyone flagged so.. To disengage it, you simply typed /pvp again and had to wait 15 min for the flag to go away.. This system could work in ESO if it got implemented.. A thief, which was also flagged, would be able to be killed by the enforcers.. Also he could not cheat the system to commit a crime and deflag, becuase of the 15 min timer.. It should also be mentioned that the timer would reset if the flagged player did ANYTHING PvP related, which in this case would be to steal again, or attack a guard/enforcer..

Gidorick

I'm wondering if PVP should be done on a sort of contract/bounty. A player with heat and or a bounty is reported to a player who is an enforcer and that enforcer goes and gets THAT player. Not just any outlaw. That specific one.

BBSooner

I really hope they add enforcers. A few things they could do to prevent abuse:

- Outlaw players could: Be set as invisible to enforcers for X seconds after leaving a refuge; Be set to invulnerable to enforcers for X seconds after leaving a refuge.
- Outlaw NPCs could watch over the refuge exit sitting outside the limits of every city with comparable strength to guards.
- Enforcers could be set to only be active within cities (allowing thieves to always have 1 safe refuge exit since all refuges have an "outside" exit)

Some sort of dynamic where players can be 'good guys' with the justice system is needed, though. This will be compounded when the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood (Morag Tong) get released.

Davadin

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

The primary issue that must be solved is how to prevent high level enforcers from ganking in low level zones, and high level outlaws from being unstoppable in low level zones.

You can institute level limits but that's boring and restrictive.

This pretty much it.

But I'm fairly confident that OP's concerns will stabilize itself after a month or two.

Yes, ganking happens in the begining, then the gankers will get bored. Afterall, there are 2 entrances for each safe zone, and there are safe zones EVERYWHERE.

And also, you can't be ganked if u don't have a bounty...

I don't see it as a big problem. A problem indeed in the beginning, but it will iron out.

PS: I do have one idea.

Active enforcers (that are wearing the tabard) cannot stealth.

Athas24

I really like the concepts that were mentioned about enforcers being Unable to stealth while wearing the tabard to enforce. I also like the idea of guards being near the refuge areas to stop enforcers from going in or camping those areas. That alone will bring a good measure of peace. Also, enforcers watching someone do a crime should be irrelevant to a bounty. A Guard/citizen should still have to see the criminal and call for the bounty, not a player. If players can cause bounties, there will just be untold amounts of harassment/griefing where people just follow thieves around all day waiting to "catch" them in a crime. Also, the guards (on either the criminal or enforcer side) should not engage in combat while an enforcer is engaged in pvp with the criminal. It loses the luster of pvp and just becomes a game of run to a guard so he can down you. Outside of that I think enforcers vs criminals could be fun.

traigusb14_ESO2

I'm not a big fan of enforcers.

The setup for the PVP aspect is just prone to abuse by its very conception.

It strikes me that only certain subsets of people will want to hang around towns waiting to smack people that commit crimes... most of those groups I don't want to PVP with.

It is basically a PVP beartrap.

It is like in old EQ waiting near priest of Discord for that new player to accidentally turn in his PVP book.. WHAM!

It is like PVP ganking someone questing in Cyrodil (Which I know is legal, but still says a lot about the people who do it).

People hang out at the quest areas/quest delves KNOWING the questers are already trying to deal with NPC etc. and smacking them down when they aren't actually ready to fight.

The situation is intrinsically unfair PVP. The thief is already dealing with environment, stealth mechanics and NPCs... then WHAM. Joe badcop swoops in. Boy he is so cool.

In the end, the devs have to waste a lot of time and effort to put in a feature that is really only appealing to a small subset of PVP people.. and a lot of them not stellar individuals to start with.

I'd rather combat / PVP devs work on dueling, arenas, or pokemon style pet battles before enforcers.

Daemons_Bane

It is like PVP ganking someone questing in Cyrodil (Which I know is legal, but still says a lot about the people who do it).

People hang out at the quest areas/quest delves KNOWING the questers are already trying to deal with NPC etc. and smacking them down when they aren't actually ready to fight.

This is pretty much what has kept me out of the Cyrodill quest lines.. I'd love to experience them, but getting killed while fighting a bunch of npc's kill the fun for me very quickly

BBSooner

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

The situation is intrinsically unfair PVP. The thief is already dealing with environment, stealth mechanics and NPCs... then WHAM. Joe badcop swoops in. Boy he is so cool.

In the case of an enforcer descending on an outlaw, it's entirely within the outlaws control whether they accrue a bounty. The difference between a guard coming in for the kill or an enforcer coming in for the kill is moot - the outlaw failed and is experiencing the repercussions. Infact, I'd argue that being caught by a player is preferrable to being caught by a guard, simply for the fact that players can be killed.

This situation also assumes that Joe badcop isn't open to attack initiated from an outlaw player. I would imagine there would be a lot of back and forth, and a lot of confrontations started by an outlaw character looking to prey on an unsuspecting enforcer.

It seems you are quick to contend that the enforcers are the 'bully' in the majority of the situations, and I don't think that's the case.

idk

ATM issues are just hypothetical at best as we have not even seen the second half of the system on the PTS. At that, concerning camping th outlaw den entrance, there are multiple entrances to each den. More then we currently have access to. Very possibly they will open the closed entranced.

BBSooner

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

It is like PVP ganking someone questing in Cyrodil (Which I know is legal, but still says a lot about the people who do it).

People hang out at the quest areas/quest delves KNOWING the questers are already trying to deal with NPC etc. and smacking them down when they aren't actually ready to fight.

This is pretty much what has kept me out of the Cyrodill quest lines.. I'd love to experience them, but getting killed while fighting a bunch of npc's kill the fun for me very quickly

I've had the opposite experience. Not only fighting off the NPCs but killing a player who soon realizes he bit off more than he can chew has been a lot of fun for me thus far.

traigusb14_ESO2

BBSooner wrote: »

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

The situation is intrinsically unfair PVP. The thief is already dealing with environment, stealth mechanics and NPCs... then WHAM. Joe badcop swoops in. Boy he is so cool.

In the case of an enforcer descending on an outlaw, it's entirely within the outlaws control whether they accrue a bounty. The difference between a guard coming in for the kill or an enforcer coming in for the kill is moot - the outlaw failed and is experiencing the repercussions. Infact, I'd argue that being caught by a player is preferrable to being caught by a guard, simply for the fact that players can be killed.

This situation also assumes that Joe badcop isn't open to attack initiated from an outlaw player. I would imagine there would be a lot of back and forth, and a lot of confrontations started by an outlaw character looking to prey on an unsuspecting enforcer.

It seems you are quick to contend that the enforcers are the 'bully' in the majority of the situations, and I don't think that's the case.

(Just to note I do PVP in Cyrodil and only steal occasionally)

Sure the bounty is a choice. But the rules around it do not cover bad player behavior. NPC guards and Players are in no manner equal. Guards have a fixed role, rules, AI and placement. The Player (especially a player choosing to be Joe Badcop) will (the majority of the time) stack every little chance on making the fight as unfair as possible... Joe Badcop could theoretically be killed, but character spec difference between Bob Theifly (guy who wants to steal) and Joe Badcop (guy who wants to Kill Thieves / PVP) will be unfair. Unless Bob Thiefly ramps up his skills, spells, gear and CP to PVP then he is dead every time. So a player that wants to steal has to be speced and be good at PVP (which may not be what he wants to play) to do the part of the game he wants to do. Since currently you can steal and not be forced to PVP. It also becomes of a bait and switch.

(last version I saw talked about by devs, this is also possible)
I get a bounty and leave town to lose the heat. I can now be whacked by anyone flagged as an enforcer no matter what I am doing (except in refuges). Just as bad as quest ganking in Cyrodil.

There may very well be some players playing bait for Enforcers (especially if there is an achievement for killing Enforcers).Really though, it is no way going to be 1 for 1.

What % of thieves will be PVP speced vs PVE and really not ready to fight at that level.

What % of Enforcers will be PVP speced and PVP experienced?


Of all the PVP things the devs could be working on, this should be the last (if it gets done at all). Dueling and Areas would be way better for fair PVP.

Davadin

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

It is like PVP ganking someone questing in Cyrodil (Which I know is legal, but still says a lot about the people who do it).

People hang out at the quest areas/quest delves KNOWING the questers are already trying to deal with NPC etc. and smacking them down when they aren't actually ready to fight.

This is pretty much what has kept me out of the Cyrodill quest lines.. I'd love to experience them, but getting killed while fighting a bunch of npc's kill the fun for me very quickly

I'm on the other side of the fence.

Doing PvE quests is somewhat... boring. You get what you expect. No more, no less. Great, but nothing... surprising...

PvE in cyro (either the one ganking or being jumped) adds that extra layer of "remember, this is A WARZONE before whatever you're doing to help that poor NPC".

It's lotsa fun.


Yes, I got my Cyrodiil Adventure title. And the dye. Awesome dye. Makes everything looks metal.

Daemons_Bane

PvE in cyro (either the one ganking or being jumped) adds that extra layer of "remember, this is A WARZONE before whatever you're doing to help that poor NPC".

It's lotsa fun.

For you, the PvP'er it is, but not for PvE'ers.. Remember what you said yourself, 2 sides of the coin.. And mind you that I didn't say that there was anything wrong with how Cyrodill works, just that it is not for me.. This kind of game has the wrong PvP type imo

BBSooner

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

The situation is intrinsically unfair PVP. The thief is already dealing with environment, stealth mechanics and NPCs... then WHAM. Joe badcop swoops in. Boy he is so cool.

In the case of an enforcer descending on an outlaw, it's entirely within the outlaws control whether they accrue a bounty. The difference between a guard coming in for the kill or an enforcer coming in for the kill is moot - the outlaw failed and is experiencing the repercussions. Infact, I'd argue that being caught by a player is preferrable to being caught by a guard, simply for the fact that players can be killed.

This situation also assumes that Joe badcop isn't open to attack initiated from an outlaw player. I would imagine there would be a lot of back and forth, and a lot of confrontations started by an outlaw character looking to prey on an unsuspecting enforcer.

It seems you are quick to contend that the enforcers are the 'bully' in the majority of the situations, and I don't think that's the case.

So a player that wants to steal has to be speced and be good at PVP (which may not be what he wants to play) to do the part of the game he wants to do.

The Justice system is about consequences, where the enforcement of those consequences takes place is moot, as long as it's not in a deemed 'safe haven' (RE: Thief Refuge). Every player has 100% control over if they participate in the system.

Additionally, there are currently players who don't participate in the current system because they dislike NPC guards accosting them, however that isn't percieved as a flaw. Similarly, there will be players who choose not to participate in the system because of the possibility of player Enforcers, which I also believe isn't a flaw. Consequences for your actions (and whether or not you're willing to face said consequences) is the entire point of this system.

Daemons_Bane

BBSooner wrote: »

Additionally, there are currently players who don't participate in the current system because they dislike NPC guards accosting them, however that isn't percieved as a flaw. Similarly, there will be players who choose not to participate in the system because of the possibility of player Enforcers, which I also believe isn't a flaw. Consequences for your actions (and whether or not you're willing to face said consequences) is the entire point of this system.

This sounds a bit like you compare the guards to the enforcer players.. You can't do that..

BBSooner

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Additionally, there are currently players who don't participate in the current system because they dislike NPC guards accosting them, however that isn't percieved as a flaw. Similarly, there will be players who choose not to participate in the system because of the possibility of player Enforcers, which I also believe isn't a flaw. Consequences for your actions (and whether or not you're willing to face said consequences) is the entire point of this system.

This sounds a bit like you compare the guards to the enforcer players.. You can't do that..

You're right. Enforcers can be killed, easily escaped, and (likely) pre-emtively killed by a group of outlaws. Guards cannot.

Daemons_Bane

@BBSooner I take the liberty of assuming that you like PvP and can't wait until the day that this might happen.. The reason that I say you can't compare the two is (as you already know I assume) that the guards are only npcs.. They don't have player skills, champion points, potions and so on.. They won't wait for you in a group so that they can kill you as soon as you appear.. As others have mentioned before me, this system is likely to attract the kind of "PvP'ers" that find it highly amusing to do this all day long just for the fun they get in bugging other players