Player Discussion: Adding Enforcers to the Justice System

Khami

If the allow the players to go after the outlaws, expect mobs of enforcers waiting by all retreats. It will turn the game into gankfest, even if it's an opt in.

Even if they get rid of the vet ranks, those with the best gear and top level, there has to be one outside of 50, they will still hang out and wait for the outlaw to attempt to get to the retreat to pay off their bounty.

Only a fool or someone who has never played on an open world PvP server thinks that won't happen. It will happen. With ESO being 2 servers, there will always be someone hanging out waiting for someone to gank.

Count on it.

BBSooner

Khami wrote: »

If the allow the players to go after the outlaws, expect mobs of enforcers waiting by all retreats. It will turn the game into gankfest, even if it's an opt in.

Even if they get rid of the vet ranks, those with the best gear and top level, there has to be one outside of 50, they will still hang out and wait for the outlaw to attempt to get to the retreat to pay off their bounty.

Only a fool or someone who has never played on an open world PvP server thinks that won't happen. It will happen. With ESO being 2 servers, there will always be someone hanging out waiting for someone to gank.

Count on it.

We'd much more likely see player outlaws (who currently have no heat, and are thus not attackable) ganking lone enforcers, either by group or otherwise. There's nothing to stop a player from inside a refuge from just porting to a random wayshrine to escape a camped exit (assuming there is no protection vs camping implemented).

Edit: Add in a loss of bounty and heat once killed, and it's no worse than hitting a guard walking past a refuge when you exit.

Nestor

BBSooner wrote: »

However there is no evidence at this time that adding Enforcers would impact a player limiting themselves to exclusively PvE content.

Yes, there would be Impact. I would have to wade through these battles to do any business in town. That is an impact to me and my enjoyment of the game. If I want to be around violence and combat, I go to places that have that. Its bad enough with people getting into it with Guards in the cities, but those fights are over soon enough and the inevitability just makes me chuckle. Besides, I almost never see those fights outside the first zone. So I can concentrate on zones 2 to 5 and pretty much ignore the Guard/Criminal Fights. Player Enforcers would just make me quit playing the game.

lecarcajou_ESO

Nestor wrote: »

If I want to be around violence and combat, I go to Best Buy on Black Friday.

Sorry. Just couldn't resist.

Nestor

lecarcajou_ESO wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

If I want to be around violence and combat, I go to Best Buy on Black Friday.

Sorry. Just couldn't resist.

Well played

Enodoc

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Besides, if you're a good criminal you'll avoid getting a bounty, and definitely avoid going as far into a bounty as Kill on Sight, so you wouldn't be able to be killed by an Enforcer anyway.

It shouldn't have to depend on that.. There should not be PvP elements in this PvE mechanic.. Give the guards a much needed upgrade and let the PvP interested people stay in Cyrodill

I see that you glossed over the part where I said death to a player is less detrimental than death to a guard
I essentially don't really see the difference between being one-shotted by a guard and being one-shotted by an Enforcer; the cause of either happening is the same (being KoS), and the result is also the same (being killed). Why is a player Enforcer doing exactly the same thing an NPC guard can do already seen as such a negative?

oddavi wrote: »

Enforcers should have to be inside the enforcer tower to put or remove the tabard

I think that would make sense. I think they possibly already said that would be the case as well.

Nestor wrote: »

Enforcers should be in Cyrodiil only. That is the PvP zone and that is where PvP should be.

I think that would be pointless. The justice system doesn't even apply to Cyrodiil because it has no stable authorities.

Daemons_Bane

Give it up @Tandor .. He won't see it..

I essentially don't really see the difference between being one-shotted by a guard and being one-shotted by an Enforcer; the cause of either happening is the same (being KoS), and the result is also the same (being killed).

The difference is as simple as that I can escape the guard, because he don't have a *** of bonusses, and he don't posess human intelligence and patience

Gidorick

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Give it up @Tandor .. He won't see it..

I essentially don't really see the difference between being one-shotted by a guard and being one-shotted by an Enforcer; the cause of either happening is the same (being KoS), and the result is also the same (being killed).

The difference is as simple as that I can escape the guard, because he don't have a *** of bonusses, and he don't posess human intelligence and patience

Don't like to be hunted, eh?

Daemons_Bane

I don't mind being hunted by the PvE enforcers from the PvE mechanic that stealing is

SeñorCinco

I am actually in support of open world PvP, although it obviously demands limitations. If you view everyone as just another NPC, then they simply become a sentient AI.

Murder and robbery are as much a part of everyday life in every city and town on Nirn and reflected in the gameplay of the previous installments of the series. To see guards running down thieves just seems... natural. Sithis knows, I've been run down and attacked by every guard, citizen and livestock since I started playing TES.

I sometimes just... stop. Stop and watch the characters run about doing different things. All of this random and often irreverent activity draws me into the environment beyond the SP games.

... an element I am most certain to miss.

The introduction of these player involved mechanics are not only welcomed but encouraged.

Tandor

BBSooner wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Enforcers should be in Cyrodiil only. That is the PvP zone and that is where PvP should be.

Would be even worse than making it open world with no restrictions.

Tandor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

But what of those of us that are not geared for PvP, because we don't like it? We will be gangbanged by top tuned players who apparently have nothing better to do with their time than attack players who enjoy their PvE..

Don't steal - or don't get caught.

And don't murder.

Your pve is unchanged, [/b]

You've just changed it. You've said PvEers shouldn't steal or murder - but those are PvE crimes and can currently quite rightly be dealt with by PvE penalties. The Justice System has added PvE content to the game which should not be changed in the way you propose, telling people not to use the Justice System if they don't like PvP is changing the PvE.

No, it remains unchanged (in the sense that every single quest, zone, etc in the game is still available to you) - it's my fault for presenting a fragmented statement. Crime still has consequences, and of which stealing and murdering provide the harshest bounties.

The consequences change, sure.

No, you're missing my point. At present I have PvE content in the form of stealing from NPCs or murdering them. Adding Enforcers introduces PvP into PvE content and the way you say I can avoid that is by no longer doing the PvE content i.e. stealing from NPCs and murdering them. That is changing the PvE content and making it PvP or nothing.

It simply isn't. We have no details as to when an Enforcer is allowed to intervene, and how long the window is available. You are making assumptions based on details we haven't been given.

Edit: For all we know, Enforcers cannot intervene until a player both reaches a certain bounty and has reached a certain heat after making the PvE decision to run from the guard instead of pay the bounty. There are too few details to be making the statements you are making. Or players will have to both have an Outlaw Tabard and Enforcer Tabard equipped before they can view each other as enemies. Or any other multitude of changes that could potentially let players continue to participate in the Justice system. We know too little for you to be accusing a player-enforcer system of taking away your content.

Again, you miss my point. I wasn't responding to speculation about how Enforcers might be introduced, I was responding to your comment on it.

You stated that if I didn't want to PvP I could avoid it by not stealing or murdering. You then said that my PvE is thereby unchanged. My point is that by having to drop an existing part of the PvE content my PvE would be changed. Whether that is how it works out in practice if Enforcers are introduced is immaterial to the point that you are wrong to claim that I can drop the PvE part of the Justice System without my PvE being changed.

And again, you miss my relation to the actual topic of enforcers by insisting that "changing PvE is change". Correct, change is change. However there is no evidence at this time that adding Enforcers would impact a player limiting themselves to exclusively PvE content.

I didn't argue that. I disputed your claim that dropping out of the PvE-based Justice System by not stealing or murdering would not change my PvE. So far you have not addressed that point, preferring instead to speculate on the rules and restrictions that might apply to Enforcers, and which is irrelevant to your claim that people can drop our of the PvE content without changing their PvE.

Clearly, I am able to participate in the Justice System at the moment by way of PvE. I may be able still to do so if Enforcers are introduced, we don't yet know, but it is clear that if I drop the Justice System as you advocate then I will be dropping PvE content and my PvE will therefore change. That is indisputable, I'm surprised you either can't see it or choose not to, but we'll leave it there. Hopefully it will never be put to the test and PvP penalties will not be applied to PvE crimes in PvE areas.

Enodoc

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Give it up @Tandor .. He won't see it..

I essentially don't really see the difference between being one-shotted by a guard and being one-shotted by an Enforcer; the cause of either happening is the same (being KoS), and the result is also the same (being killed).

The difference is as simple as that I can escape the guard, because he don't have a *** of bonusses, and he don't posess human intelligence and patience

With the right balancing (and there would need to be a hell of a lot of balancing for this to work), you should be able to escape an Enforcer in the same way as you do a guard - run like the clappers
When I've been chased by a guard, I haven't stopped to look back at how I managed to escape them, but I assume it's a combination of distance and line-of-sight. I've managed to escape from a PvP situation in Cyrodiil in the same way, so that's what I'm basing this all on.

I think they will do it right when they get around to doing it, and I'm sure it'll be on PTS long enough for it to be tested so they can get feedback on the concerns people have.

BBSooner

Enodoc wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Give it up @Tandor .. He won't see it..

I essentially don't really see the difference between being one-shotted by a guard and being one-shotted by an Enforcer; the cause of either happening is the same (being KoS), and the result is also the same (being killed).

The difference is as simple as that I can escape the guard, because he don't have a *** of bonusses, and he don't posess human intelligence and patience

With the right balancing (and there would need to be a hell of a lot of balancing for this to work), you should be able to escape an Enforcer in the same way as you do a guard - run like the clappers

Or other Outlaws could step in ... since actually stepping in would result it something more besides just being insta-gibbed by invulnerable guards.

Gidorick

BBSooner wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Give it up @Tandor .. He won't see it..

I essentially don't really see the difference between being one-shotted by a guard and being one-shotted by an Enforcer; the cause of either happening is the same (being KoS), and the result is also the same (being killed).

The difference is as simple as that I can escape the guard, because he don't have a *** of bonusses, and he don't posess human intelligence and patience

With the right balancing (and there would need to be a hell of a lot of balancing for this to work), you should be able to escape an Enforcer in the same way as you do a guard - run like the clappers

Or other Outlaws could step in ... since actually stepping in would result it something more besides just being insta-gibbed by invulnerable guards.

I think a 1v1 enforcer system would be the best bet.

Sausage

They cant make it work, they can use phasing, and put like 5 Criminals and Enforcers per phase/zone, but what if theres 500 of each, that means they need to 50 add phase/zone of which about 95% are empty.

Great idea, but its for another game, sadly.

EDIT: Maybe somekind of challenge system for Enforcers, if Enforcer seens a Criminal, they need to challenge, and no-one cant disturb them until the fight is solved, but even then, if Criminal win, next Enforcer is gonna challenge him straight away.

bertenburnyb16_ESO

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

The primary issudie. That must be solved is how to prevent high level enforcers from ganking in low level zones, and high level outlaws from being unstoppable in low level zones.

You can institute level limits but that's boring and restrictive.

They are doing the scaling stuff they already did backwards, instead of scaling up content to the playerlvl, they should have downscaled players to the zone lvl, then players can still visit lower lvl zones without oneshotting everything, and also for the justice system this would work, said it many times already

Brizz

Problem - It would be too easy for a group of enforcers to camp and outnumber criminals.

• Solution - Enforcers get a "Hand Cuffs" ability that can only be used on criminals. Only one set of handcuffs can be placed on a criminal at any given time. Using this on a criminal once spotted locks him in place and gives the criminal two options: Pay the bounty or fight/flee.
• Once engaged, both players can attack each other. The criminal can choose to stand his ground and fight or try to run away.
• If the enforcer kills the criminal, all stolen items are lost and the gold (whatever is on their person; up to the bounty amount,) is given to the enforcer.
• The criminal is granted a buff that gives him immunity to Hand Cuffs for a short duration if he runs far enough away, or kills the Enforcer.

This would allow for players to engage in a fair fight, as well as give PvE'rs the chance to run away best they can from an enforcer to get to a safe haven.

Want to be a good criminal but not have to Pvp? Invisibility potions.

cozmon3c_ESO

omg pve'ers take a chill pill, you know how much pve we pvp'ers have to deal with, its all over cyrodiil. and soon to be imperial city too. pvp'ers have to pve just to pvp. pve'ers get all the goods while we as pvp'ers, especially over the past year, have just been plain s*** on by ZoS.

the system is unchanged, you will just have a chance to actually die now because the guards are so dumb they cant kill anyone. you just want your easy mode, well except a challenge for once, face the hardest bosses in the game, another player. will you get wrecked, maybe, just group up with some friends then.

i will personally be playing which ever has the least amount of players on it to balance it out. if there are a crap ton of criminals well guess what, im going to be enforcing your asses. if there are a crap ton of enforcers, i will become an assassin and murder you all because guess what, when you wear the enforcer tabard you are flagged for pvp.

oh and for those enforcers who dont want to do the pvp aspect of being an enforcer, zos was showing off some pve caves for enforcers to do at the guild summit 6 months ago, where they go in and root out pve criminals (pvp criminals cant enter the caves), confiscate loot, and you dont even have to pvp if you dont want too. gg. all options covered.

you dont have to pvp if you, dont get caught stealing stuff. and doing pve caves for enforcers. both will level you up, both are pve. both are still awesome sauce.

the only issue they were still running through there head 6 months ago was how to prevent griefing of higher levels on lower levels, if you want to really help them, come up with solutions for that.

Daemons_Bane

you just want your easy mode

This seems to be what the PvP'ers think that every PvE player wants.. Which is totally wrong.. The guards could use a gargantuan overhaul, but replacing them with players is a wrong step.. And to say that we stand on equal footing if we get a "lvl equalizer" is also wrong.. The difference lies in that the PvP'ers have their optimized skills and gear.. If I try and run, they got snares, stuns and that speed buff from assault.. That leaves me with incredibly small options.. And of course PvP'ers has got to live with more PvE content, since this is primarily a PvE game

i will personally be playing which ever has the least amount of players on it to balance it out.

This is because you want it.. Most PvE'ers do not

cozmon3c_ESO

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

you just want your easy mode

This seems to be what the PvP'ers think that every PvE player wants.. Which is totally wrong.. The guards could use a gargantuan overhaul, but replacing them with players is a wrong step.. And to say that we stand on equal footing if we get a "lvl equalizer" is also wrong.. The difference lies in that the PvP'ers have their optimized skills and gear.. If I try and run, they got snares, stuns and that speed buff from assault.. That leaves me with incredibly small options.. And of course PvP'ers has got to live with more PvE content, since this is primarily a PvE game

i will personally be playing which ever has the least amount of players on it to balance it out.

This is because you want it.. Most PvE'ers do not

glad you seem to think you speak for "Most PvE'ers" lol. i bet most would disagree with you.

Daemons_Bane

Look through the thread.. It seems like most of the vocal ones are against having big open world pvp.. And no matter how many it is, it don't change the argument

Besides, don't you speak for all when you say "you just want easy mode"

Gidorick

Brizz wrote: »

Problem - It would be too easy for a group of enforcers to camp and outnumber criminals.

• Solution - Enforcers get a "Hand Cuffs" ability that can only be used on criminals. Only one set of handcuffs can be placed on a criminal at any given time. Using this on a criminal once spotted locks him in place and gives the criminal two options: Pay the bounty or fight/flee.
• Once engaged, both players can attack each other. The criminal can choose to stand his ground and fight or try to run away.
• If the enforcer kills the criminal, all stolen items are lost and the gold (whatever is on their person; up to the bounty amount,) is given to the enforcer.
• The criminal is granted a buff that gives him immunity to Hand Cuffs for a short duration if he runs far enough away, or kills the Enforcer.

This would allow for players to engage in a fair fight, as well as give PvE'rs the chance to run away best they can from an enforcer to get to a safe haven.

Want to be a good criminal but not have to Pvp? Invisibility potions.

I like where your going with these ideas @Brizz. I think part of the solution is to not have open pvp. Once the two are fighting, ml one else can join. It's between them. Also, At that point, cloaking skills could be effective against the other player.

Your ideas would go great with my contract ideas.

Nestor

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

glad you seem to think you speak for "Most PvE'ers" lol. i bet most would disagree with you.

I will take your money. All the way to the bank.

Daemons_Bane

I still think the contract system has potential I've been wondering about having an enforcer skill line, instead of the players own..

cozmon3c_ESO

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

I still think the contract system has potential I've been wondering about having an enforcer skill line, instead of the players own..

They did say there will be seperate skill lines for both, and i wouldnt be supprised if this launches with the dark brother hood and the thieves guild storylines, and maybe even make an enforcer storyline with the game as well.

Gidorick

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

I still think the contract system has potential I've been wondering about having an enforcer skill line, instead of the players own..

They did say there will be seperate skill lines for both, and i wouldnt be supprised if this launches with the dark brother hood and the thieves guild storylines, and maybe even make an enforcer storyline with the game as well.

Well, legerdemain has its own skill-line. It would make sense for Enforcers top have a skill line also. I don't know how I would feel about limiting players to ONLY using enforcer skills while being an enforcer though.

Daemons_Bane

Ledgermain don't really offer possibilities besides the small sneak bonus, if the game got enforcers.. A skill set for both, made to be pitted against each other

BuggeX

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

It is like PVP ganking someone questing in Cyrodil (Which I know is legal, but still says a lot about the people who do it).

People hang out at the quest areas/quest delves KNOWING the questers are already trying to deal with NPC etc. and smacking them down when they aren't actually ready to fight.

This is pretty much what has kept me out of the Cyrodill quest lines.. I'd love to experience them, but getting killed while fighting a bunch of npc's kill the fun for me very quickly

i was not Long ago in a delve to kill the last Boss for the achivment "Explorer", after 2 hours Boss spwaned and i attacked.
when i got the Boss at 20% i got attacked by 2 random Players....



... well i left the fight with Explorer achivment and kill a Player with your own hp under 5%

Davadin

Khami wrote: »

If the allow the players to go after the outlaws, expect mobs of enforcers waiting by all retreats. It will turn the game into gankfest, even if it's an opt in.

Even if they get rid of the vet ranks, those with the best gear and top level, there has to be one outside of 50, they will still hang out and wait for the outlaw to attempt to get to the retreat to pay off their bounty.

Only a fool or someone who has never played on an open world PvP server thinks that won't happen. It will happen. With ESO being 2 servers, there will always be someone hanging out waiting for someone to gank.

Count on it.

for the first week, or month, perhaps.

It'll die down once the criminals start buffing up their skills too and learning some tricks (like, travel with powerful guildies), and the enforcers realized the reward is not worth it.

It'll balance itself out in the end.

Count on it.


/AoC, SWG, Warhammer, etc. Open World PvP ex-players

Davadin

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Ledgermain don't really offer possibilities besides the small sneak bonus, if the game got enforcers.. A skill set for both, made to be pitted against each other

There's already a sneak-reduce cost, so the possibilities are there.

BUT oh hell YEAH, please have new skills for both Legerdm and Enforcers! would LOVE to see it.

hell i'd throw my money on it (if its DLC)