The worse loot system in MMO history
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Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »wholt200ub17_ESO wrote: »If people are quitting the game because they can't get the items they want, so be it. Games are meant to be enjoyable, it's not about having the best of everything, it's about having fun. Something much of the gaming community has forgotten in the past years.
I have fun when my effort towards a desired goal is rewarded.
RNG loot drops DO NOT do that.
And in fact they do not in any way guarantee replayability, because I may - randomly - get exactly what I want on my first run through.
With a "token" system if I know I need to do 10 runs to get X gear then that is ten guaranteed runs. If then I can upgrade X by completing another 20 runs that's more replayability.
With RNG the tendency is to have the chance of me getting the loot I want so low that instead of guaranteeing replayability it guarantees frustration.
I play MMORPGS to wash away frustration, not to add to it.
All The Best
The problem I have with token-based systems is that it's pretty much the definition of a themepark. You repeat the same thing over and over again until you have enough to put into the slot machine and get what you want. Afterwards the content is never re-run because you got everything you want and token-bought items are usually bind on pickup, so you can't even sell your surplus.
RNG on the other hand is the mechanic of a sandbox. You can maximize your chance for loot in several ways that are not dictated by the game, such as grouping with friends, optimizing your build for a specific enemy, doing something else to earn the gold and buy what you need on the market, etc. pp. It's much more dynamic and immersive than an NPC-shaped slot machine.
ESO's problem is that it combines RNG with bind on pickup, which is stupid.
You shouldn't be strong armed into doing content in a stupid game! Games are supposed to be fun, you should have content that is fun enough you want to do it over and over again!
ZOS current policy about nerfing grind spots and this horrible loot system are the company's attempt to hide how little content ESO actually offers after one year out in the market.3 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »wholt200ub17_ESO wrote: »If people are quitting the game because they can't get the items they want, so be it. Games are meant to be enjoyable, it's not about having the best of everything, it's about having fun. Something much of the gaming community has forgotten in the past years.
I have fun when my effort towards a desired goal is rewarded.
RNG loot drops DO NOT do that.
And in fact they do not in any way guarantee replayability, because I may - randomly - get exactly what I want on my first run through.
With a "token" system if I know I need to do 10 runs to get X gear then that is ten guaranteed runs. If then I can upgrade X by completing another 20 runs that's more replayability.
With RNG the tendency is to have the chance of me getting the loot I want so low that instead of guaranteeing replayability it guarantees frustration.
I play MMORPGS to wash away frustration, not to add to it.
All The Best
The problem I have with token-based systems is that it's pretty much the definition of a themepark. You repeat the same thing over and over again until you have enough to put into the slot machine and get what you want. Afterwards the content is never re-run because you got everything you want and token-bought items are usually bind on pickup, so you can't even sell your surplus.
RNG on the other hand is the mechanic of a sandbox. You can maximize your chance for loot in several ways that are not dictated by the game, such as grouping with friends, optimizing your build for a specific enemy, doing something else to earn the gold and buy what you need on the market, etc. pp. It's much more dynamic and immersive than an NPC-shaped slot machine.
ESO's problem is that it combines RNG with bind on pickup, which is stupid.
You shouldn't be strong armed into doing content in a stupid game! Games are supposed to be fun, you should have content that is fun enough you want to do it over and over again!
ZOS current policy about nerfing grind spots and this horrible loot system are the company's attempt to hide how little content ESO actually offers after one year out in the market.
From my experience, I like the combat to be fun in itself, and the content to be rewarding.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »wholt200ub17_ESO wrote: »If people are quitting the game because they can't get the items they want, so be it. Games are meant to be enjoyable, it's not about having the best of everything, it's about having fun. Something much of the gaming community has forgotten in the past years.
I have fun when my effort towards a desired goal is rewarded.
RNG loot drops DO NOT do that.
And in fact they do not in any way guarantee replayability, because I may - randomly - get exactly what I want on my first run through.
With a "token" system if I know I need to do 10 runs to get X gear then that is ten guaranteed runs. If then I can upgrade X by completing another 20 runs that's more replayability.
With RNG the tendency is to have the chance of me getting the loot I want so low that instead of guaranteeing replayability it guarantees frustration.
I play MMORPGS to wash away frustration, not to add to it.
All The Best
^ This guy gets it. The problem is not that people can get lucky and find the item they need on their first run, the problem is that people can be unlucky and actually NEVER get the piece they need. Tokens allow you to feel you are progressing towards the loot you want, even if you are very unlucky with RNG, so what is the down side?1 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »wholt200ub17_ESO wrote: »If people are quitting the game because they can't get the items they want, so be it. Games are meant to be enjoyable, it's not about having the best of everything, it's about having fun. Something much of the gaming community has forgotten in the past years.
I have fun when my effort towards a desired goal is rewarded.
RNG loot drops DO NOT do that.
And in fact they do not in any way guarantee replayability, because I may - randomly - get exactly what I want on my first run through.
With a "token" system if I know I need to do 10 runs to get X gear then that is ten guaranteed runs. If then I can upgrade X by completing another 20 runs that's more replayability.
With RNG the tendency is to have the chance of me getting the loot I want so low that instead of guaranteeing replayability it guarantees frustration.
I play MMORPGS to wash away frustration, not to add to it.
All The Best
The problem I have with token-based systems is that it's pretty much the definition of a themepark. You repeat the same thing over and over again until you have enough to put into the slot machine and get what you want. Afterwards the content is never re-run because you got everything you want and token-bought items are usually bind on pickup, so you can't even sell your surplus.
RNG on the other hand is the mechanic of a sandbox. You can maximize your chance for loot in several ways that are not dictated by the game, such as grouping with friends, optimizing your build for a specific enemy, doing something else to earn the gold and buy what you need on the market, etc. pp. It's much more dynamic and immersive than an NPC-shaped slot machine.
ESO's problem is that it combines RNG with bind on pickup, which is stupid.
You shouldn't be strong armed into doing content in a stupid game! Games are supposed to be fun, you should have content that is fun enough you want to do it over and over again!
ZOS current policy about nerfing grind spots and this horrible loot system are the company's attempt to hide how little content ESO actually offers after one year out in the market.
From my experience, I like the combat to be fun in itself, and the content to be rewarding.
I agree. I have no problem running DSA over and over again, well... At least Vet DSA, normal DSA is a bit boring. The problem is, having the RNG blocking my way to a good reward generates quite a bit of frustration and that ruins the fun of going over the content.
So why not remove or improve that RNG, so it is not solely based on luck?0 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »wholt200ub17_ESO wrote: »If people are quitting the game because they can't get the items they want, so be it. Games are meant to be enjoyable, it's not about having the best of everything, it's about having fun. Something much of the gaming community has forgotten in the past years.
I have fun when my effort towards a desired goal is rewarded.
RNG loot drops DO NOT do that.
And in fact they do not in any way guarantee replayability, because I may - randomly - get exactly what I want on my first run through.
With a "token" system if I know I need to do 10 runs to get X gear then that is ten guaranteed runs. If then I can upgrade X by completing another 20 runs that's more replayability.
With RNG the tendency is to have the chance of me getting the loot I want so low that instead of guaranteeing replayability it guarantees frustration.
I play MMORPGS to wash away frustration, not to add to it.
All The Best
The problem I have with token-based systems is that it's pretty much the definition of a themepark. You repeat the same thing over and over again until you have enough to put into the slot machine and get what you want. Afterwards the content is never re-run because you got everything you want and token-bought items are usually bind on pickup, so you can't even sell your surplus.
RNG on the other hand is the mechanic of a sandbox. You can maximize your chance for loot in several ways that are not dictated by the game, such as grouping with friends, optimizing your build for a specific enemy, doing something else to earn the gold and buy what you need on the market, etc. pp. It's much more dynamic and immersive than an NPC-shaped slot machine.
ESO's problem is that it combines RNG with bind on pickup, which is stupid.
You shouldn't be strong armed into doing content in a stupid game! Games are supposed to be fun, you should have content that is fun enough you want to do it over and over again!
ZOS current policy about nerfing grind spots and this horrible loot system are the company's attempt to hide how little content ESO actually offers after one year out in the market.
From my experience, I like the combat to be fun in itself, and the content to be rewarding.
I agree. I have no problem running DSA over and over again, well... At least Vet DSA, normal DSA is a bit boring. The problem is, having the RNG blocking my way to a good reward generates quite a bit of frustration and that ruins the fun of going over the content.
So why not remove or improve that RNG, so it is not solely based on luck?
For reasons mentioned above, I'd rather see it improved than removed, and there are lots of ways to do so.
For one, the actual reward should be better. In the case of Vet DSA, master weapons are currently not worth the hassle.
Second, you should always get something worthwhile that is unavailable or much rarer from other sources - no, not soul gems or a bit of gold. Kuta runes, Dreugh Wax, Tempering Alloy, rare crafting motifs, extra undaunted keys, etc. There are already some good options in the game, but there could be more.
Third, rewards should be BoE and not BoP. I know this is controversial, but it increases longevity of the content, makes gold more useful for trading and decreases frustration ending up with something you didn't want. In the case of veteran group dungeons, I repeatedly had to deconstruct items of the worm cult and savior's hide set because I already had them, they were clogging my inventory/bank space and there was no way to trade them. This is just awful.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.1 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭They should at least have the courtesy to drop a Hamster Wheel as a collectible trophy item.
You could activate it, and it would change your Master's Weapon into an alternate version (for a limited time, of course)
I feel your pain OP. I don't even have a wall to place the Master's Greatswords my character has little use for.Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS1 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »wholt200ub17_ESO wrote: »If people are quitting the game because they can't get the items they want, so be it. Games are meant to be enjoyable, it's not about having the best of everything, it's about having fun. Something much of the gaming community has forgotten in the past years.
I have fun when my effort towards a desired goal is rewarded.
RNG loot drops DO NOT do that.
And in fact they do not in any way guarantee replayability, because I may - randomly - get exactly what I want on my first run through.
With a "token" system if I know I need to do 10 runs to get X gear then that is ten guaranteed runs. If then I can upgrade X by completing another 20 runs that's more replayability.
With RNG the tendency is to have the chance of me getting the loot I want so low that instead of guaranteeing replayability it guarantees frustration.
I play MMORPGS to wash away frustration, not to add to it.
All The Best
The problem I have with token-based systems is that it's pretty much the definition of a themepark. You repeat the same thing over and over again until you have enough to put into the slot machine and get what you want. Afterwards the content is never re-run because you got everything you want and token-bought items are usually bind on pickup, so you can't even sell your surplus.
RNG on the other hand is the mechanic of a sandbox. You can maximize your chance for loot in several ways that are not dictated by the game, such as grouping with friends, optimizing your build for a specific enemy, doing something else to earn the gold and buy what you need on the market, etc. pp. It's much more dynamic and immersive than an NPC-shaped slot machine.
ESO's problem is that it combines RNG with bind on pickup, which is stupid.
You shouldn't be strong armed into doing content in a stupid game! Games are supposed to be fun, you should have content that is fun enough you want to do it over and over again!
ZOS current policy about nerfing grind spots and this horrible loot system are the company's attempt to hide how little content ESO actually offers after one year out in the market.
From my experience, I like the combat to be fun in itself, and the content to be rewarding.
I agree. I have no problem running DSA over and over again, well... At least Vet DSA, normal DSA is a bit boring. The problem is, having the RNG blocking my way to a good reward generates quite a bit of frustration and that ruins the fun of going over the content.
So why not remove or improve that RNG, so it is not solely based on luck?
For reasons mentioned above, I'd rather see it improved than removed, and there are lots of ways to do so.
For one, the actual reward should be better. In the case of Vet DSA, master weapons are currently not worth the hassle.
Second, you should always get something worthwhile that is unavailable or much rarer from other sources - no, not soul gems or a bit of gold. Kuta runes, Dreugh Wax, Tempering Alloy, rare crafting motifs, extra undaunted keys, etc. There are already some good options in the game, but there could be more.
Third, rewards should be BoE and not BoP. I know this is controversial, but it increases longevity of the content, makes gold more useful for trading and decreases frustration ending up with something you didn't want. In the case of veteran group dungeons, I repeatedly had to deconstruct items of the worm cult and savior's hide set because I already had them, they were clogging my inventory/bank space and there was no way to trade them. This is just awful.
Definitely agree, the point of this thread is not to advocate scrapping the current loot system, but improving it, making it less reliant on pure luck, but also rely on skill and time spent in the game.
And you are right about the quality of gear we currently have (though I disagree regarding Master weapons, some of them are just awesome) is really bad. On the first page of this thread someone linked the reward for completing Cadwell's Gold... A blue necklace no VR10 would ever, ever use (is that really the best a Goddess can give us? >.> ) and that is just one example... Most quest rewards in this game end up deconstructed, researched or simply vendored. Trial gear isn't that far better. AA and Hel Ra gear were made irrelevant by the changes in 1.6 (not to mention every crit gear was severely nerfed); even SO gear, the hardest content in the game, is not that great... Some builds can arguably use some of the pieces, but it is nothing that great or impressive. No wonder the competition for all but VDSA leaderboard died after 1.6.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »They should at least have the courtesy to drop a Hamster Wheel as a collectible trophy item.
You could activate it, and it would change your Master's Weapon into an alternate version (for a limited time, of course)
I feel your pain OP. I don't even have a wall to place the Master's Greatswords my character has little use for.
I am already on my 3rd vr14 Master Sword here... >.>
Soon I will have enough weapons I have no use at all for to open an armory.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »They should at least have the courtesy to drop a Hamster Wheel as a collectible trophy item.
You could activate it, and it would change your Master's Weapon into an alternate version (for a limited time, of course)
I feel your pain OP. I don't even have a wall to place the Master's Greatswords my character has little use for.
I am already on my 3rd vr14 Master Sword here... >.>
Soon I will have enough weapons I have no use at all for to open an armory.
Oh wait... I can't sell them...0 -
Sausage✭✭✭✭✭
✭RNG makes sure people dont get them too easily, if they get them too easily, they start to whine new gears, because everyone has same stuff as they have, and Zen is forced to release new set of gears multiple times per year and that causes all kind of problems. Also ESO system promotes trading and sociality.
I am sorry, but you can't trade or sell Master Weapons. Actually, several of the best in slot pieces are BoP, if that wasn't the case, this game's horrible RNG wouldn't be so much a problem as it is.
As for what other MMOs do, at least they have the decency of not putting *** on the Loot Table for the completion of an objective. Why are Soul Gems a viable reward for the last Chest V-DSA? Why are there completely useless greens on that loot table? It makes no sense.
ZoS believes making loot hard to get by placing it behind a wall of horrible RNG is the solution for this game's lack of content. Well, it is a crappy, lazy solution at best. At worst, it chases players from the game. It is not fun to go over content for no reward, it is simple as that.
They should get rid off of BoP. If people need to show epeen, show it with how much CPs you have.
I again think RNG is great solution for games, its this or then they need to add gears like 4 times per year, as soon as masses have best gears in game, elite players demand new gears. But I think maybe loyal and veteran players should have a chance to get better RNG. Come on, if you play the game 1 year, dont you deserve better chance. Maybe RNG system needs somekind of system for unlucky ones, like gold can be turned into luck. Lets say you dont get what you want but your gold pile start to pile up, you can use that to improve your RNG. Nevertheless I like it more than the typical gear-mill.Edited by Sausage on May 19, 2015 2:12PM1 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
✭i like LOTRO's.
you killed a guy, u get a token.
challenge completed? SPECIAL TOKEN!
have 10/20 tokens? GET THE STUFF U WANT!
tiny problem: guilds and players who has most hours to grind will get everything they want. There is no surprise. There is no challenge. There is, however, a forum uproar of (a) casuals who has no hope still on getting some stuff unless they spend the hours, and (b) people who get bored now that they've grind everything to hell, they want more content even faster.Frenkthevile wrote: »
different achievement.August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber0 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »wholt200ub17_ESO wrote: »If people are quitting the game because they can't get the items they want, so be it. Games are meant to be enjoyable, it's not about having the best of everything, it's about having fun. Something much of the gaming community has forgotten in the past years.
I have fun when my effort towards a desired goal is rewarded.
RNG loot drops DO NOT do that.
And in fact they do not in any way guarantee replayability, because I may - randomly - get exactly what I want on my first run through.
With a "token" system if I know I need to do 10 runs to get X gear then that is ten guaranteed runs. If then I can upgrade X by completing another 20 runs that's more replayability.
With RNG the tendency is to have the chance of me getting the loot I want so low that instead of guaranteeing replayability it guarantees frustration.
I play MMORPGS to wash away frustration, not to add to it.
All The Best
The problem I have with token-based systems is that it's pretty much the definition of a themepark. You repeat the same thing over and over again until you have enough to put into the slot machine and get what you want. Afterwards the content is never re-run because you got everything you want and token-bought items are usually bind on pickup, so you can't even sell your surplus.
RNG on the other hand is the mechanic of a sandbox. You can maximize your chance for loot in several ways that are not dictated by the game, such as grouping with friends, optimizing your build for a specific enemy, doing something else to earn the gold and buy what you need on the market, etc. pp. It's much more dynamic and immersive than an NPC-shaped slot machine.
ESO's problem is that it combines RNG with bind on pickup, which is stupid.
You shouldn't be strong armed into doing content in a stupid game! Games are supposed to be fun, you should have content that is fun enough you want to do it over and over again!
ZOS current policy about nerfing grind spots and this horrible loot system are the company's attempt to hide how little content ESO actually offers after one year out in the market.
From my experience, I like the combat to be fun in itself, and the content to be rewarding.
I agree. I have no problem running DSA over and over again, well... At least Vet DSA, normal DSA is a bit boring. The problem is, having the RNG blocking my way to a good reward generates quite a bit of frustration and that ruins the fun of going over the content.
So why not remove or improve that RNG, so it is not solely based on luck?
For reasons mentioned above, I'd rather see it improved than removed, and there are lots of ways to do so.
For one, the actual reward should be better. In the case of Vet DSA, master weapons are currently not worth the hassle.
Second, you should always get something worthwhile that is unavailable or much rarer from other sources - no, not soul gems or a bit of gold. Kuta runes, Dreugh Wax, Tempering Alloy, rare crafting motifs, extra undaunted keys, etc. There are already some good options in the game, but there could be more.
Third, rewards should be BoE and not BoP. I know this is controversial, but it increases longevity of the content, makes gold more useful for trading and decreases frustration ending up with something you didn't want. In the case of veteran group dungeons, I repeatedly had to deconstruct items of the worm cult and savior's hide set because I already had them, they were clogging my inventory/bank space and there was no way to trade them. This is just awful.
Definitely agree, the point of this thread is not to advocate scrapping the current loot system, but improving it, making it less reliant on pure luck, but also rely on skill and time spent in the game.
I remember pre release, Finesse (what is now ultimate) was supposed to increase your loot chance as well your exp.
What a strange world that was.
Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭i like LOTRO's.
you killed a guy, u get a token.
challenge completed? SPECIAL TOKEN!
have 10/20 tokens? GET THE STUFF U WANT!
tiny problem: guilds and players who has most hours to grind will get everything they want. There is no surprise. There is no challenge.
There are several intellectual fallacies in here, been said earlier in this thread by other people too.
1) guilds and players who has most hours to grind will get everything they want
False. Guilds and players who kill the most content get everything they want, regardless of how loot is distributed. With RNG there will be individual outliers where some guys get a lot of stuff quick while others must wait for a while but globally the more times you get to open a loot chest the more times you have a change to get the good stuff. Alas, those spending immense time will get all and quicker, it's not a "token system" exclusive.
2) There is no surprise but there's anticipation.
You know at day zero that you'll take 20 runs to get the items and build anticipation about when you'll hold the stuff in your hands. When it happens, then the anticipation turns into achievement feeling.
On the other side, with RNG, the first 5 runs there's anticipation. Then comes perplexity. Then you become annoyed. Then pi**ed off. Finally, you get frustrated as you see all your contacts stopping doing runs for your needed content because they all got their own stuff and you don't.
This will statistically happen for 50% of the items you need. Due to human perception, one bad news feelings weigh more than two good news feelings. Therefore with a 50% surprise / frustration ratio, you'll still end up hating the game.
3) There is no challenge.
There is not challenge with the RNG system either. You can't change the fact you are or you aren't going to get the drop, therefore you are just hostage of the random number generator and that's it.
On the other side, a well made token system will pose its own challenge, that is getting the best stuff ASAP with the minimum amount of possible tokens. This is a factor YOU can affect.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO3 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think it sucks that there is no point in doing endgame content because I can craft superior endgame gear since level 40. Nobody does content just "for the enjoyment of it", as you suggest. That's the recipe for a dead game, which is why they added the daily undaunted pledges in the first place.
If you aren't enjoying the endgame content then why stay to do it? Are you honestly suggesting that you do the content to get better gear so you can... do more content you don't enjoy to get even better gear?
If this is the case then why do you bother at all? Why isn't there a massive groundswell of protest directed at ZOS asking them for some content that is actually fun to do? It just seems incomprehensible to me that you would continue in this path for, well, what seems like forever. People doing content for the fun of it isn't a dead game... it's an enjoyable one. If it happens to have interesting drops/bonuses at the same time then all well and good, but surely the basis of this entire thread is that people don't want to repeat content they are not enjoying just to get gear drops that they may never get. Doesn't that suggest that the gear in and of itself isn't the only element to this equation?I really do like crafting, and having to go hunt for high level ingredients to craft the best gear would, IMO, only strengthen the importance of crafting without taking away from endgame content. We already have a similar system with the Nirnhoned trait, which is poorly executed, but the direction I'd want to see crafting expanding in.
Yes, it wouldn't take away from endgame content. But it probably would take something away from crafting. As I discussed in my earlier post, you would effectively remove a certain type of crafter from the game... one who was dedicated to crafting but not to combat. Do you really want to exclude people like that?1 -
ItsRejectz✭✭✭✭✭ESO loot is awesome! I find it extremely awarding spending hours defeting different bosses for my 68 gold and usless item set!
If anything, it's to rewarding and should be nerfed,68g is way to much for all that effort.
Xbox EU - GT: o69 Woody 69o
VR16 Sorc: Vlad V Impaler
VR16 Sorc: Yes it's Woody
VR16 NB: Prince of Wallachia
VR16 Templar: Sir Lancelot the Brave
VR16 DK: I'm Better Than You2 -
ElfFromSpace✭✭✭✭I do think future end game content needs to look at the Prismatic Weapon for inspiration. Getting a choice between 3-4 different reward items each time would definitely help both with collecting sets and just making a player feel empowered.
Otherwise it starts to feel like a lottery, and statistically the solution to losing a lottery is not to play it more often.
I don't see any reason this couldn't be done. The choice on the prismatic was simply a dialog with an NPC. Easy enough. Even better is the idea we've suggested several times to the staff where we'd have a special currency from running trials and an elite trials gear vendor. Better rewards for doing trials would greatly help the motivation to do them.Former GM Elder Scrolls Exchange0 -
stojekarcub18_ESO✭✭✭✭worst??!! Not by a long shot. You can go wander and kill and loot and make such easy gold in this game. Go try Archeage, where you get squat, and suffer such a strict p2w rng system, that you can't progress. Try Neverwinter, where you luck into a good rng roll when you create your account, or you suck forever. If you find ESO's loot system bad, you haven't played MMO's before. This game is crazy generous.0 -
Stikato✭✭✭✭✭stojekarcub18_ESO wrote: »
So if we play Korean MMOs, that will make this loot system seem better? Omg the solution was right in front of us the entire time!Mordimus - Stam Sorc3 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭"Worst in history" is ridiculous, but you can safely say, "Pretty Bad." It starts at level 1, when you realize you rarely get quest rewards useful for the char you want to play, and it continues through the entire game.
Happily, crafted gear is really good. Also, there are drop sets and PvP sets that you can either farm or buy. So, you can get great gear in a reasonable time. It's mostly quest rewards that are awful.
I suppose if you're after one particular form of master's weapon or exact trait-weight combination on the Valkyn Skoria head, then that would get frustrating. But you can get gear darn near as good as that without too many dice rolls.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade2 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think it sucks that there is no point in doing endgame content because I can craft superior endgame gear since level 40. Nobody does content just "for the enjoyment of it", as you suggest. That's the recipe for a dead game, which is why they added the daily undaunted pledges in the first place.
If you aren't enjoying the endgame content then why stay to do it? Are you honestly suggesting that you do the content to get better gear so you can... do more content you don't enjoy to get even better gear?
I never said it shouldn't be fun, I'm saying fun isn't sufficient. And I'm not doing endgame content, exactly because there is no reward. I mainly log in to feed my horses.I really do like crafting, and having to go hunt for high level ingredients to craft the best gear would, IMO, only strengthen the importance of crafting without taking away from endgame content. We already have a similar system with the Nirnhoned trait, which is poorly executed, but the direction I'd want to see crafting expanding in.
Yes, it wouldn't take away from endgame content. But it probably would take something away from crafting. As I discussed in my earlier post, you would effectively remove a certain type of crafter from the game... one who was dedicated to crafting but not to combat. Do you really want to exclude people like that?
I'll be honest, I don't think those people exist. ESO is already impossible to play without combat. You can't even craft medium armor without killing animals. You can't get Nirnhoned gear without doing the Craglorn questline. You can't get to the Cadwell silver and gold areas where rare motifs drop without completing the main quest, which involves combat. I don't see the fundamental difference if pacifist crafters would have to trade for one more thing.
Besides, why doesn't your "do it for the fun" argument apply to crafting? Why can't crafters just craft because it's fun, not because of the gear reward?Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.1 -
Caspur✭✭✭If you aren't enjoying the endgame content then why stay to do it? Are you honestly suggesting that you do the content to get better gear so you can... do more content you don't enjoy to get even better gear?
I love your statement.Are you honestly suggesting that you do the content to get better gear so you can... do more content you don't enjoy to get even better gear?
From now until the end of time let this be known as the "MMO Grinder's Paradox"
Grind. Hate Grinding. Complain. Grind. Get Gear. Repeat. ∞
A place where everything and nothing exists, this is my playground.0 -
Dixa✭✭✭✭
You shouldn't be strong armed into doing content in a stupid game! Games are supposed to be fun, you should have content that is fun enough you want to do it over and over again!
this your first mmorpg?
strong armed? you can choose to participate on the level the game designers have in mind to achieve the best-in-the-game loot, or you choose not to.
the wow token system didn't really fix the intrinsic problems with loot in mmorpgs - it just made people feel forced....er i'm sorry "strong armed" into running boring heroic dungeons every single day to remain competitive or have a chance at applying for a raid spot if they were not fortunate or quick enough to join a raid group on the day of the current tier launch.
it has sort of been this way since shrouded isles in daoc.2 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since I haven't played every MMORPG ever created, I clearly cant say that ESO has the worse loot system in MMO history.
But it's definitely bad, compared to most games I've played. Bottom 3 for me, when it comes to horrible loot system.
I really enjoy messing around and trying out different builds with different gear sets. Who doesn't? But that's often impossible to do in ESO, since it can take over half a year or more to get the pieces you want. There's still sets I haven't completed after playing since early access
Not the end of the world really, since many different sets and combination will do the job. There's no "BiS" in this game really, unless when a gear set is broken and abused lol.
However by not improving this horrible loot system, they're killing a bit of fun and creating a lot of player frustration. I actually do expect to see more ways(than cursed rng) to obtain BoP items in the future. It's probably one of those "soon™" thingies.1 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I'm not saying what will happen here, I'm saying that's what happened to LOTRO.i like LOTRO's.
you killed a guy, u get a token.
challenge completed? SPECIAL TOKEN!
have 10/20 tokens? GET THE STUFF U WANT!
tiny problem: guilds and players who has most hours to grind will get everything they want. There is no surprise. There is no challenge.
There are several intellectual fallacies in here, been said earlier in this thread by other people too.
1) guilds and players who has most hours to grind will get everything they want
False. Guilds and players who kill the most content get everything they want, regardless of how loot is distributed. With RNG there will be individual outliers where some guys get a lot of stuff quick while others must wait for a while but globally the more times you get to open a loot chest the more times you have a change to get the good stuff. Alas, those spending immense time will get all and quicker, it's not a "token system" exclusive.
2) There is no surprise but there's anticipation.
You know at day zero that you'll take 20 runs to get the items and build anticipation about when you'll hold the stuff in your hands. When it happens, then the anticipation turns into achievement feeling.
On the other side, with RNG, the first 5 runs there's anticipation. Then comes perplexity. Then you become annoyed. Then pi**ed off. Finally, you get frustrated as you see all your contacts stopping doing runs for your needed content because they all got their own stuff and you don't.
This will statistically happen for 50% of the items you need. Due to human perception, one bad news feelings weigh more than two good news feelings. Therefore with a 50% surprise / frustration ratio, you'll still end up hating the game.
3) There is no challenge.
There is not challenge with the RNG system either. You can't change the fact you are or you aren't going to get the drop, therefore you are just hostage of the random number generator and that's it.
On the other side, a well made token system will pose its own challenge, that is getting the best stuff ASAP with the minimum amount of possible tokens. This is a factor YOU can affect.
Bro.
August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber0 -
Dixa✭✭✭✭
I'm not saying what will happen here, I'm saying that's what happened to LOTRO.i like LOTRO's.
you killed a guy, u get a token.
challenge completed? SPECIAL TOKEN!
have 10/20 tokens? GET THE STUFF U WANT!
tiny problem: guilds and players who has most hours to grind will get everything they want. There is no surprise. There is no challenge.
There are several intellectual fallacies in here, been said earlier in this thread by other people too.
1) guilds and players who has most hours to grind will get everything they want
False. Guilds and players who kill the most content get everything they want, regardless of how loot is distributed. With RNG there will be individual outliers where some guys get a lot of stuff quick while others must wait for a while but globally the more times you get to open a loot chest the more times you have a change to get the good stuff. Alas, those spending immense time will get all and quicker, it's not a "token system" exclusive.
2) There is no surprise but there's anticipation.
You know at day zero that you'll take 20 runs to get the items and build anticipation about when you'll hold the stuff in your hands. When it happens, then the anticipation turns into achievement feeling.
On the other side, with RNG, the first 5 runs there's anticipation. Then comes perplexity. Then you become annoyed. Then pi**ed off. Finally, you get frustrated as you see all your contacts stopping doing runs for your needed content because they all got their own stuff and you don't.
This will statistically happen for 50% of the items you need. Due to human perception, one bad news feelings weigh more than two good news feelings. Therefore with a 50% surprise / frustration ratio, you'll still end up hating the game.
3) There is no challenge.
There is not challenge with the RNG system either. You can't change the fact you are or you aren't going to get the drop, therefore you are just hostage of the random number generator and that's it.
On the other side, a well made token system will pose its own challenge, that is getting the best stuff ASAP with the minimum amount of possible tokens. This is a factor YOU can affect.
Bro.
lotro though...got to a point where you could just solo everything. even the raids.
not since my 3 box necro/cleric buffbot/minstrel buffbot in daoc have i felt so overwhelmingly powerful in an mmorpg to the point that it actually detracted from my fun as I did when i returned to my lifetime sub and leveled a captain two years ago.0 -
Rioht✭✭✭Moonshadow66 wrote: »As a single PvE player such as myself, you get nothing at all. It ends at green VR10 jewelry (only if you're very lucky!) and the standard crafted armor/weapon sets. 8 characters, always the same, over and over again.
Yep, no love for Solo players.
We are forced to grind gold to buy gear from players who enjoy the large group content. That's not an acceptable way for solo players to enjoy endgame.
Why can't we just have some open world drops, that can be found ANYWHERE? Why should I not be able to have a 0.001% to find a masters weapon from a random mob? Why not add interesting unique weapons like umbra that anyone can find, doing any activity they like.
ZoS needs to stop trying to funnel us into content we don't want to play, and embrace the "play the game the way you want" feel they are advertising.0 -
Zhoyzu✭✭✭✭✭some 40+ runs dry on Bloodspawn helm. never seen a single one. RNG sucksZhoyzu - Nightblade Alchemist (v15) RETIRED
Has-No-Heart - Templar Enchanter (v4) FUBAR
Ambadassador - Dragon knight (v1) Naked with no future (returned from the naked realm to tank PvE)
Sakis Tolis - Sorceror (v10 in progress) Living Legend!
Xuhl'Xotuun - Warden Current Main as im starting the game over essentially with this character aside from crafting.
Creator of Khajiit fall dmg reduction racial passive concept.0 -
Islyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭@f047ys3v3n
Heya Hunny - yeah soo random.
Yeah here's how my HM set went on EU - AA one ring Hel Ra 2nd Ring and that weekend (one of em was weekly) neck. Literally 1x each run and neck in mail.
On NA took me 4mos of running the above several times a day. :-/
That was 2 runs and mail 2 days later and me done with trials seriously till there is a new one.Edited by Islyn on May 20, 2015 4:02PMMember of the Old Guard - Closed Betas 20130
