how is vet dungeon a possibility ?

Robbmrp · April 2015

Thefox wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

Thefox wrote: »

Put all your attributes into Health. The Dungeon Bosses do sooo much damage that's the only way to avoid a one shot. Use enchants to offset your other areas, magicka/stamina depending on the build you have. I tried out a hybrid build 40 health the rest magicka when 1.6 first came out and was getting one shotted all the time. With all attributes into Health it rarely happens now. It really doesn't matter if your block/casting or not. In CoA, I've had the last boss hit me for 1/2 health with blocking or not. Either the mechanics broken, or for somethings, blocking really doesn't matter as you will get hit with full damage anyway. I've even had more health lost while blocking than not blocking from the same boss attack.

but then non of my stamina based skills will do any damage... ?

Sure they will. The problem you will have, is you won't have any Stamina available to cast them thanks to all the blocking required.

Shunravi · April 2015

Thefox wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Thefox wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

Thefox wrote: »

Put all your attributes into Health. The Dungeon Bosses do sooo much damage that's the only way to avoid a one shot. Use enchants to offset your other areas, magicka/stamina depending on the build you have. I tried out a hybrid build 40 health the rest magicka when 1.6 first came out and was getting one shotted all the time. With all attributes into Health it rarely happens now. It really doesn't matter if your block/casting or not. In CoA, I've had the last boss hit me for 1/2 health with blocking or not. Either the mechanics broken, or for somethings, blocking really doesn't matter as you will get hit with full damage anyway. I've even had more health lost while blocking than not blocking from the same boss attack.

but then non of my stamina based skills will do any damage... ?

You can't dps while dead.

Then now come most build thats posted on the forums, have most points on stam or magica. ?
the builds I have been looking around on, if its stamina then its offen all 62 points on stam. ..

It's all about level of play. And what your group is capable of. I would recommend more hp until you know things a bit better. Then you can reallocate into glass cannon. And, be sure to have that food buff going.

UrQuan · April 2015

A glass cannon build is definitely risky in a vet dungeon (a glass cannon in a vet dungeon will die a bunch), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that you should put everything into health. Between attribute points, armour enchants, and food you're going to want probably 20K in health (or more to be safe), and put the rest into either magicka or stamina, depending on your build. That should be enough to keep you from getting one-shotted (well, as long as you don't do anything stupid), and as long as you've got a good healer that's the most important thing.

Thefox · April 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

A glass cannon build is definitely risky in a vet dungeon (a glass cannon in a vet dungeon will die a bunch), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that you should put everything into health. Between attribute points, armour enchants, and food you're going to want probably 20K in health (or more to be safe), and put the rest into either magicka or stamina, depending on your build. That should be enough to keep you from getting one-shotted (well, as long as you don't do anything stupid), and as long as you've got a good healer that's the most important thing.

I moved all my stats over to health. moved from 11k to 15k. from what i had before.
and 20k. well that might happen when I hit V14. and get the gear that comes at that rank.

but now I have what I can squise out of my gear and enchantments. ^^

UrQuan · April 2015

Thefox wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

A glass cannon build is definitely risky in a vet dungeon (a glass cannon in a vet dungeon will die a bunch), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that you should put everything into health. Between attribute points, armour enchants, and food you're going to want probably 20K in health (or more to be safe), and put the rest into either magicka or stamina, depending on your build. That should be enough to keep you from getting one-shotted (well, as long as you don't do anything stupid), and as long as you've got a good healer that's the most important thing.

I moved all my stats over to health. moved from 11k to 15k. from what i had before.
and 20k. well that might happen when I hit V14. and get the gear that comes at that rank.

but now I have what I can squise out of my gear and enchantments. ^^

Hmm, if you have everything in health I don't understand how your stats can be so low. That's including food? I've got a level 42 character that runs at more health than that, and I don't even have all of his stats in health. And if you were trying to do a vet dungeon with only 11K health, no wonder you were having so much trouble with it.

Ffastyl · April 2015

Thefox wrote: »

moved from 11k to 15k.

This may be V14 standards, but 15k is considered borderline glass cannon.

Veteran players can get away with it by using abilities that create damage shields or bolster evasiveness, but even 15k HP is terribly close to one-shot territory.

...the exception being a Heavy Armor specialist. I have never experienced 15k HP, but I tank in the 18.6k to 20k HP range wearing Full Heavy Armor and using active buffs (Sword and Shield give me +1.4k HP). Having over 20k Resistance puts a noticeable damper on incoming damage, noticeable enough to obviate blocking in most circumstances (I have 30k Spell Resistance and 28k Physical Resistance while buffed).

Your armor focus is Medium (unless I misread), so your goto survival strategy should be evasion. Not just a Major Evasion buff, but positioning, dodge-rolling, and CC-breaking if need be. Medium Armor can take a couple hits, so it doesn't have to be impregnable like a mage's damage shield. But you still snap like a tree in a hurricane.

Thefox · April 2015

Ffastyl wrote: »

Thefox wrote: »

moved from 11k to 15k.

This may be V14 standards, but 15k is considered borderline glass cannon.

Veteran players can get away with it by using abilities that create damage shields or bolster evasiveness, but even 15k HP is terribly close to one-shot territory.

...the exception being a Heavy Armor specialist. I have never experienced 15k HP, but I tank in the 18.6k to 20k HP range wearing Full Heavy Armor and using active buffs (Sword and Shield give me +1.4k HP). Having over 20k Resistance puts a noticeable damper on incoming damage, noticeable enough to obviate blocking in most circumstances (I have 30k Spell Resistance and 28k Physical Resistance while buffed)..

so I somehow need to dish up with another 5k health, and have 20k to resistances ? I dont even have 8k in that..
" ohh crown store ??? "

how is that even possble. that sounds like your a fully maxed CP and V14 with golden gear. and golden enchantments.

Shunravi · April 2015

at v1 i think 10-14k hp is ok. in that ballpark at least. make your own judgements on how to get there, but that should keep you alive.

UrQuan · April 2015

Shunravi wrote: »

at v1 i think 10-14k hp is ok. in that ballpark at least. make your own judgements on how to get there, but that should keep you alive.

I wouldn't agree with that... At VR1 I always make sure that I have at least 16K in health (taking food into account). Mind you, the 20K I was quoting above wasn't aimed at a VR1 - at VR1 you definitely don't need that much. If you're a VR1 and you're around 10-12K you're in serious danger of being one-shotted in a vet dungeon. If you're around 16K you can survive one of the heaviest of hits with enough health to stay alive long enough for your healer to save you. You can probably get by with less than that if you're really good at always dodge-rolling in time, blocking in time, and interrupting in time (and knowing when to do each), but if you're not used to actually having to get the timing right on all of those things (which someone just starting to do vet dungeons most likely isn't), I'd say more like 16K would be what you should aim for.

Shunravi · April 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

at v1 i think 10-14k hp is ok. in that ballpark at least. make your own judgements on how to get there, but that should keep you alive.

I wouldn't agree with that... At VR1 I always make sure that I have at least 16K in health (taking food into account). Mind you, the 20K I was quoting above wasn't aimed at a VR1 - at VR1 you definitely don't need that much. If you're a VR1 and you're around 10-12K you're in serious danger of being one-shotted in a vet dungeon. If you're around 16K you can survive one of the heaviest of hits with enough health to stay alive long enough for your healer to save you. You can probably get by with less than that if you're really good at always dodge-rolling in time, blocking in time, and interrupting in time (and knowing when to do each), but if you're not used to actually having to get the timing right on all of those things (which someone just starting to do vet dungeons most likely isn't), I'd say more like 16K would be what you should aim for.

ah, you are right...

UrQuan · April 2015

OK, here's why I can't understand why at VR1 your health is only 15K if you've moved all you stats to health. This is my level 42 that I'm currently working on bringing up to VR1:

As you can see, less than half of his attribute points are in health, and yet he's at a little over 15K health. This is with blue level 35 food boosting health and stamina (with level 40 food his health would be higher), and with a 5-piece Seducer set, and a 3-piece Magnus set (5 heavy armour pieces, 2 light), all of which are level 40 and have magicka enchants on them, and 2 rings adding to health, and an amulet adding to magicka. So at 8 levels below you, with way fewer attribute points in health, using sub-optimal food, and with my gear all focused on raising magicka instead of health, I've got about the same amount of health as you.

Maybe if you post a similar summary of your character we can give you some better advice on getting your survivability up to what it should be for vet dungeons.

Edit: I should note that I'm not pointing to my character as an example of an optimal build for running dungeons. This is him "optimized" (in quotes because he's not actually optimized for anything) for solo PVE questing. If I was running dungeons with him I'd switch it up to a healer build, or a magicka DPS build, with food that boosts health and magicka instead of health and stamina. I'd probably move those attribute points out of stamina to do so, and split them between health and magicka.

Thefox · April 2015

I moved the last enchants I have so now im down to nothing in stamina and dmg. this is with out the food buff but 2500 exrta aint gonna be makeing me do a ton more dmg

so thats the hp, now how about that 20k resistance ? and can they please have made it so thats someting one can understand. how mush is 7392 ? is it total amount of damage redused. if thats the case then lower lvl mobs would not be able to hurt you at all, is it % ? then why aint it marked as %. ?

UrQuan · April 2015

Thefox wrote: »

I moved the last enchants I have so now im down to nothing in stamina and dmg. this is with out the food buff but 2500 exrta aint gonna be makeing me do a ton more dmg
so thats the hp, now how about that 20k resistance ? and can they please have made it so thats someting one can understand. how mush is 7392 ? is it total amount of damage redused. if thats the case then lower lvl mobs would not be able to hurt you at all, is it % ? then why aint it marked as %. ?

OK, from that picture your health is much higher than the 15K you had mentioned earlier - is that a result of switching up enchants on your armour?

And this is without food you say? I think the food buffs are the biggest differences between what people like me are saying you should be able to get to for stats, and what you're getting. In vet dungeons you should always be using blue or purple food, depending on your build. You're a stamina build, and I'm assuming you don't use much magicka, right? If that's the case, the base amount of magicka you've got is probably enough for you, so I'd suggest using blue food that buffs health and stamina (those 2 stats will be buffed higher if you use blue food than if you used purple food that buffs all 3 stats).

When you add in the food buff, you've now got enough health to tank. For a VR1 DPS I don't think you really need more than about 16K health (including food, so if you're using VR1 blue food that gives you +3292 health you can afford to reduce your base health to somewhere in the 12-13K range) as long as you're running with a halfway decent healer. At higher levels I'd want more, but at VR1 you should be good with 16K health, and put the rest into stamina. So between the food and moving some of that health into stamina, I'd expect you to be at about 17K, give or take. That should be more than enough to do good DPS.

I also wouldn't worry about trying to get your resistance as high as 20K - that's probably a good amount to shoot for if you're tanking, but you don't need that much as a DPS - at VR1 I'd say you're fine being in the range of about 8K, and you're not far off from that. It looks like you're running all medium gear, is that right? What quality is it? Are you using set pieces (crafted or dropped), or just basic gear? Are the "big enchant" pieces (the head, chest, and legs) using the Infused trait? I tend to be of the opinion that for vet dungeons your gear should all be upgraded at least to blue, and using set pieces can make a big difference. If you do want an easy way to up your resistance, you can swap out your medium chest piece for a heavy piece. As long as your dodging and blocking as needed, though, you probably don't need to worry too much about upping your resistance.

Oh, and as far as how the resistance mechanic actually works: your resistance determines what percentage incoming damage is reduced by. I have no idea how it calculates it though lol.

For comparison (and I don't know why the heck I didn't post this last night - this would have been a way more helpful comparison for you than my level 42 templar healer/DPS hybrid) here's my VR1 stamina-build nightblade DPS:

This is with all medium armour upgraded to purple, all gear is Hunding's Rage or Night Mother's Gaze set pieces, enchants on the gear are for stamina, and he's using blue food boosting health and stamina. He runs dual wield and bow. I've considered moving a bit of that stamina into health, but I feel like his survivability is good enough (as long as he's got food - I can't stress enough how important food is in vet dungeons!).

I hope all of this helps!

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO · April 2015

I still don't see the reason to have that much health as a DPS in V1. The only time I see DPS dying is when they run so far away they are out of the healer's healing range or because for some reason they never seem to be able to avoid the red indicator of doom.

Anyway, if you're an Ebonheart masterpact character as well, join a cyrodil server where the EP is in a super lead (has everything). You get huge buffs from that that can help you with both DPS and health problem.

UrQuan · April 2015

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I still don't see the reason to have that much health as a DPS in V1. The only time I see DPS dying is when they run so far away they are out of the healer's healing range or because for some reason they never seem to be able to avoid the red indicator of doom.

The bold part is why. A good DPS will be able to avoid that the vast majority of the time, but between timing, lag, whatever other effects may be on them, it's not always possible. By having about 16K health, in those cases when you can't avoid it (or in the rare cases when you do need to run out of the healer's healing range for whatever reason, or the cases when the healer dies and you need to survive long enough for the healer to get resurrected) you can still survive long enough to get healed.

failkiwib16_ESO · April 2015

Well veteran dungeons need experience, survivability, and a decent amount of CC skills - this goes for the whole team, not just dps, tank or heal.

Have some sort of off heal, so you don't strange the healer. Their main job is keeping themselves and the tank alive, last the dps.
The tanks job is to sometimes not tank, but to CC and dps.
The dps job is to crowd control, clear adds from the healer and the tank, so the healer can focus on healing and the tank can focus on the boss.

Now for clearing that boss in Spindle we all hate, that has been nerfed a lot and is reaaaally more easy now than ever. As soon as the adds spawn, whole team should get ready and the tank throws in Talons to hold the spiders still as fast as possible, the DPS goes in and AOE the spiders, the healer just spams healing springs and rapid regeneration.

>> When these adds are down, a new set of adds spawn and a small spider miniboss - tank pulls the adds with fiery grip, DPS does AoE to kill them and the spider miniboss, healer heals with healing springs and sometimes breath of life.

>> Then a new set of adds spawn with a spider miniboss along the main boss. This is where the team spreads out, dps focus on the adds and the tank goes to the boss. The tank has to make the boss face away from the team, so when the boss throws an attack where 3 rows of spikes run through the ground, they don't go toward the healer and 2 dps. When the adds are taken down, do ranged dps on the boss.

>> In the middle of it all, randomly a team member gets trapped in a ring, that member can not choose which direction the ring goes, everyone els should stay away from him/her. If anyone steps into it they die, if the one inside it steps on the rings borders they die too. This is the reason why the team should spread out when the main boss appears.

>> The main boss has an attack that gives magicka debuff. If the healer gets it, he runs out of magicka, and will have difficulty healing the team, so the rest of the team should be able to hold their own or have healing staff, to compensate for the lack of heals from the healer.

>> If the tank runs low on resources, the healer should be able to provide him with a Blazing Spear, so he can gain a little stamina back to continue blocking and keeping aggro. If the healer gets debuffed, team should be able to keep themselves alive till the healer can heal again. If anybody dies in the team, the dps should be ressurrecting, not the healer or the tank. The whole team usually dies if healer or the tank stop doing what they do.

General information about adds in dungeons, goes to this specific bossfight as well:
Always take down healers, archers and mages before taking down melee enemies. Use disruption, stun, bash or any other crowd control you have - so that the healer adds don't keep the other ones alive. If you see an archer with a glowing orange-red bow they are trying to take an "Aimed Shot".The archers can 1-2 shot most people in vet dungeons with that skill, so disrupt them before they cast it.
>> Adds can stack their AoE, so block, dodge, walk out of the AOE unless you are reaaaaally good at killing. Don't stand in the ultimates the bosses and adds throw, like if you see a DK-add throw a standard, simply walk out of it. The healer can't heal you out of 30k damage in a second.

This is not the only way of dealing with this boss, often a tank is not needed, healer is spamming heals and wastes magicka while no healing is needed etc. but it's the safest way I know to handle this one, if the team is not very experienced.

>> If you are v1, you can buff your health by slotting Structured Entrophy in both bars, a morph of Entrophy. It gives you 8% more hp. Putting half of your attribute points into health or a little less is actually plenty. 13-14k in total is enough.

>> Don't wear random loot you find, wear set armor and make sure you get it blue quality. Purple quality is nice but not needed.

>> Learn to weave if you are dps, it makes your single target damage go up to 30% higher..

>> Use Evil Hunter, a morph of Expert Hunter. It provides extra damage against undeads and dremora - which means most mobs and bosses in veteran dungeons.

>> Always eat food that buffs your magicka/health or stamina/health
>> Always carry soul gems and potions.