byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Any positive contributions - please post.

I'm positive that you are doing a terrible job of hiding your bias in this call for an unbiased poll.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

OK - no personal bias in this thread

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

But Zenimax are only telling us they tackle healing, and stamina hybridisation.

It is clear this is not going to solve the vast majority of issues with the class, and may in fact make matters worse.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

These forums are not the place to test the water on what Sorcerer players want - it is populated in far greater proportions than the general game population, by, for want of a better word or two, 'lobbyists' and 'trolls'.

All in the OP.

I'm positive that a poll means nothing.

I'm positive that http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160736/sorcerer-suggestions-for-overall-class-balance/p1 fixes every single issue(edit: Okay maybe I should add the obligatory IMO) that Sorcs have and doesn't ruin any valid magicka specs while doing it. In fact magicka specs gain melee range DPS and much utility!

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Any positive contributions - please post.

I'm positive that you are doing a terrible job of hiding your bias in this call for an unbiased poll.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

OK - no personal bias in this thread

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

But Zenimax are only telling us they tackle healing, and stamina hybridisation.

It is clear this is not going to solve the vast majority of issues with the class, and may in fact make matters worse.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

These forums are not the place to test the water on what Sorcerer players want - it is populated in far greater proportions than the general game population, by, for want of a better word or two, 'lobbyists' and 'trolls'.

All in the OP.

I'm positive that a poll means nothing.

I'm positive that http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160736/sorcerer-suggestions-for-overall-class-balance/p1 fixes every single issue(edit: Okay maybe I should add the obligatory IMO) that Sorcs have and doesn't ruin any valid magicka specs while doing it. In fact magicka specs gain melee range DPS and much utility!

Your calls for stamina hybridisation (a commonly used terms by MMO players and ESO players) of magicka skills into having a stamina morph are already captured by one of the many points in the list, and have been from the very start.

You have had nothing new to say - and the list doesn't have to change to accommodate what you keep stating is your personal preference.

Your desired changes are already represented in the list.

Unless there is something more of relevance, please leave the thread to those who want to contribute something not yet covered.

Thank you.

Why do you keep saying hybridization? That infers that Sorcs are in fact a magicka user first a foremost. Stop being biased in your unbiased topic.

Zsymon wrote: »

Other classes need a whole lot more work than Sorcerers. DKs with their weak passives, Templars with their weak and often useless and buggy skills, and Nightblades with their buggy Dark Cloak. Magicka Sorcerers are doing fine, way too good actually, on every level now.

I smell a PVPer with a small mind that only wants their class to be able to compete endgame.


Health of the game, health of the community, health of Zenimax's budget demands they need to fix the Sorc class. Other classes have at least 1 build to compete for #1 in each role PVE. Sorc's do not.

Erock25 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Any positive contributions - please post.

I'm positive that you are doing a terrible job of hiding your bias in this call for an unbiased poll.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

OK - no personal bias in this thread

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

But Zenimax are only telling us they tackle healing, and stamina hybridisation.

It is clear this is not going to solve the vast majority of issues with the class, and may in fact make matters worse.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

These forums are not the place to test the water on what Sorcerer players want - it is populated in far greater proportions than the general game population, by, for want of a better word or two, 'lobbyists' and 'trolls'.

All in the OP.

I'm positive that a poll means nothing.

I'm positive that http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160736/sorcerer-suggestions-for-overall-class-balance/p1 fixes every single issue(edit: Okay maybe I should add the obligatory IMO) that Sorcs have and doesn't ruin any valid magicka specs while doing it. In fact magicka specs gain melee range DPS and much utility!

Your calls for stamina hybridisation (a commonly used terms by MMO players and ESO players) of magicka skills into having a stamina morph are already captured by one of the many points in the list, and have been from the very start.

You have had nothing new to say - and the list doesn't have to change to accommodate what you keep stating is your personal preference.

Your desired changes are already represented in the list.

Unless there is something more of relevance, please leave the thread to those who want to contribute something not yet covered.

Thank you.

Why do you keep saying hybridization? That infers that Sorcs are in fact a magicka user first a foremost. Stop being biased in your unbiased topic.

You still here indulging in petty sniping at terminology instead of saying something useful and constructive?

Ok, if I must explain how normal the reference is, so be it...

... If a stamina base skill has two stamina morphs and one is changed to a magicka morph, that is hybridisation. The same is true in reverse.

When the people here who run mixes of skills and morphs that draw on both resources post about it, they refer to their builds as hybrid.

As a noun or adjective, one of the dictionary definitions of hybrid is this;

"Something that is powered by more than one source of power."

Ergo, if one skill's morphs have two potential power sources, then it's a hybrid skill.

I know you don't have anything legitimate to criticise on this thread Erock - but trying to fabricate bias where is doesn't exist is an unworthy thing to indulge in don't you think?

So I'll ask you once again - can't you please just contribute constructively?

No-one here is saying stamina morphs shouldn't be considered by the poll - they are in the list and are no more or less prominent than any other issue that people have raised.

It isn't all about what you, or me, or anyone else wants... it's about everyone.

i think what sorcerer players really need is for other players to stop whining about sorcerer players

F7sus4 wrote: »

What Sorcerer Players REALLY Need...

Nerfs.

ahhh someone wants his mommy cause he got spanked in PVP

It would be nice if toggled abilities were balanced in such a way that they have no resource cost and autocasted on flip or strayed on on flip

Nutronic

You keep repeating yourself on how and why a poll won't work.

But you base all your statements on your own conclusions derived from erroneous assumptions rather than direct evidence, anecdotal or otherwise. Even your coincidental evidence is based on derivation and parallels you haven't proven in any way.

But you talk about them with such certainty.

To illustrate a few things with quotes from your post(s);

Erroneous assumption - "First off, the idea of a poll where anyone can vote on choices won't work." I never said it would be a poll where anyone can vote - Zenimax know exactly who has most play hours logged on their Sorcs. and can limit the poll to them either by a minimum total hours threshold, or most hours played on one character etc.

Erroneous conclusion - "...Why are each of these aspects needed? Because if you want changes that will make the class feel better from lvl 1 to VR14 you need people..." Zenimax can equally limit the survey to those with Vet 14 Sorc. Toons as well as the above time played filter. All the conclusions you draw based off such assumed facts become irrelevant in that case.

Erroneous assumption - "A poll that opens up when you enter the game or is posted in the announcements or is even emailed to players IMMEDIATELY asks for one thing: Compromise. In this very thread alone, many people who play the same class aren't even willing to find a middle ground on non-issues, let alone game changing mechanics like morphs/passives." No it doesn't. Each person gets to have their say, their way, within the limits of the poll questions. then the results are aggregated and more informed decision making may ensue. Every political party and market researcher the world over knows aggregated 'self-interest' gives a truer representation of the truth as long as the sample size is big enough to be representative of the polled population.

Irrelevant statement - "Third of all, @byrom101b16_ESO it shouldn't matter that people don't agree with you about play style." Please just count how many times I said my opinion doesn't matter on this thread - and how many times I stated that a poll is better than anyone's opinion.

Erroneous assumption - "Sorcerer is not a mage club, despite how many people complain to the contrary." Yes it is, if a representative 'many people' do complain, and Zenimax care about the numbers and revenue relationship.

FACT! - "If I want to play my sorc by 5x wrecking blow then BE away, I have a right to ask (not receive) for a stamina option with that ability." You can! But as you so ably point out, you don't have the right to receive it. Tell that to those arguing for one thing to the exclusion of all others on other threads - myself included... Here, you hit the nail squarely on the head - we need more voices to see where the harmony is loudest, and cater to that...

Fact - "What people want is to bolster their own play style, and some of those play styles are direct opposition in terms of meaningful skills." This has been pointed out, but some think it's ok to take a dump on the opposing position when they talk about deleterious changes to existing or potential builds. Better then to find out what most people want and try to please the most people, as this demonstrates that Zenimax cannot as the saying goes, 'please most of the people most of the time'...

Erroneous assumption - "Right now, just being objective, magicka sorcs have TONS of options, obviously more than they need because not all the skills get a significant amount of use in either pvp or pve." I think the list demonstrates there are not TONS of options for magicka Sorcs, even though all Sorcerer skills are magicka based atm. Skills and morphs that aren't used are down to two factors - limited skill bars and bad magicka ability design. Your assumption that this is instead due to having too many options is as far off base as can be imagined...

Fact & Erroneous assumption mixed together - "Stamina sorcs have like... nothing, and even fewer options than other classes." Yes they have fewer options... but they would only have the same options if the class was equally stamina and magicka balanced, which no class is, so this is really axiomatic unless you simply get rid of magicka and stamina altogether for some kind of 'power' stat. On the flipside, 'stamina Sorc.' is not a class, it's a playstyle, the relative popularity of which is not known to anyone here. Hence the need for a poll before changing 'magicka Sorc's'. This may be an important issue for the majority, it may be irrelevant to the majority.

We don't know yet due to selective reporting bias in such media as forums et al.

All of these issues that you have raised in objection, actually need a representative poll to resolve!

If you can think of a better way to get at a better holistic view of the truth, then suggest one... I am all ears on that.

@byrom101b16_ESO

It's funny when you have a difference of opinion, because it seems to repeatedly come up again and again when the opposition is still... the opposition.

You claim I have based my conclusion on erroneous assumptions but I've actually done the very same things you have! I asked other players what they think, something even a 1st year community college student would tell you is an erroneous way to collect data for a representative whole. YOU even admit this yourself by claiming that what opinions I have collected are wrong simply because they aren't based on cold hard facts, rather in-game player assessments and my own play experience (which is the only real leg any of us have to stand on).

Polls won't work and aren't a good idea because as you pointed out yourself:
"Zenimax know exactly who has most play hours logged on their Sorcs."
"Zenimax can equally limit the survey to those with Vet 14 Sorc. Toons as well as the above time played filter."
If Zenimax has all this information, all this data... WHY would they ask for opinions if they can just crunch the numbers and do the math themselves? They have already proven they log most of the data and statistics players are using (go look at trial leader boards, and no, most people don't fully understand how those work, but you can bet they have to be collecting information somehow). There is no point in getting opinions from the game when all this information can be gained in game under the hood. THIS IS why we have forums, so that players can express how they feel about the way the game plays.

Also, I don't think you fully grasp what a compromise is:

: a way of reaching agreement in which each person or group gives up something that was wanted in order to end an argument or dispute

: something that combines the qualities of two different things

: a change that makes something worse and that is not done for a good reason

or maybe you do:

"Each person gets to have their say, their way, within the limits of the poll questions. then the results are aggregated and more informed decision making may ensue."

This is what you want isn't it? Please, tell me I am wrong.

Unless, that's just an opinion, in which case "my opinion doesn't matter on this thread" and you should have no problem just letting me express my "opinion". ¬_¬

Let me ask you something, what was the most common sorc dps before 1.6? It was max weapon damage, and light/medium attack weave combined with crushing shock. Now explain to me why a MAGIC based CASTER class must increase PHYSICAL WEAPON damage to maximize their SPELL DPS? To me, that sounds pretty hybrid and pretty agreeable for people who want to go a more stamina route but still capitalize on feeling like a caster by way of just maxing their weapon damage...

Another thing to consider before I make my point is the change of ALL class skills from being magicka based. This wasn't just a sorc thing, it was a class wide thing. It's easy to see that stamina is used for dodging and blocking, something each class/role must consider when playing. ZOS obviously thought this was balanced out by keeping all the skills (excluding weapon/alliance) lines on a magicka based cost, EVEN IF they affected physical/stamina damage. When this changed, we have our current situation.

This whole "stamina or magicka" divide you're adamant about picking a side on is a natural extension of the changes made to the core mechanics of doing damage. It doesn't make sense to put in such huge sweeping changes that effect multiple play styles and not add in a few concessions for those who want to try something different because they were already following the meta or wanted to switch things up.

"Skills and morphs that aren't used are down to two factors - limited skill bars and bad magicka ability design." This is both an opinion and proving my point (as well as stam sorc supporters) that there are skills, that either due to better options or bad design could be reworked and used by someone else. What I see here is a person throwing something in the garbage, and getting upset when another person wants to recycle it. A choice is a choice, regardless whether it is a good on or a bad one. It's still a choice Magicka users have that stamina users do not. The problem here is that both in lore and through mechanical play, Mages/Sorcerers/Wizards in Elderscrolls have always had the option of dawning heavy armor and charging into battle wielding sword and spell. To deny this to even 30% of the players based on... nothing (otherwise I doubt you would even ask for a poll in the first place) is opinionated and biased to say the least.

"Yes they have fewer options... but they would only have the same options if the class was equally stamina and magicka balanced, which no class is, so this is really axiomatic unless you simply get rid of magicka and stamina altogether for some kind of 'power' stat. On the flipside, 'stamina Sorc.' is not a class, it's a playstyle, the relative popularity of which is not known to anyone here. Hence the need for a poll before changing 'magicka Sorc's'. This may be an important issue for the majority, it may be irrelevant to the majority."

You've seen the list comparing the number or skills and passives that support physical/stamina builds in other classes versus sorcerer right? You have at least been in Cyrodiil and seen all the Stam based NBs and DKs right? You know that bow builds are like arguably the safest most consistent form of ranged DPS in the game... right?

Next time you do a pledge or run a trial, instead of leading a question with: "would you like X ability changed to Y ability?" Try instead asking "would you like more skills/morphs like Y or X?" Depending on how you ask a question, you can get a more telling and less personally biased results. The problem is that sorc has the opportunity to run a large number of varied play styles, but if you feel that these play styles somehow don't reflect the class, it isn't worthwhile to jump around and make it look like one person's play will harm another's.

Adding a heal boosting moprh to the sorc tree doesn't harm DPS. Adding a Stamina based mitigation for tanking doesn't harm DPS. If anything, these skills are more likely to be abused (look at clannfear heal) by dpsers in PVP making it difficult to find uses for them in PVE.

What do I think is a better way of viewing the truth? With data, not play volunteered opinions, data. Who has that data and where can we get it from? ZOS. If you have a burning suggestion or you want to rally support behind a change, then you come to forums and get other like minded individuals and make your voice heard. The game isn't in beta any more (despite some views to the contrary), ZOS doesn't have tons of employees and extra hands to sift through tons of "frags should proc on 50%" to find out information they can just pull up.

"Currently the resource = power formula makes hybridisation a fools choice."

True. And I agree, the old system was flawed and prematurely capped people's dps. However, it made more play styles viable and somewhat softened the learning curve for achieving "best dps". Again though, it relied more on non-sorc skills and didn't give pure builds the power they have now.

I'll be up front right now and tell you I'd love being hybrid. I'd prefer it to be more viable, but I would hate that to come at that detriment of stronger builds. A hybrid should have benefits from both sides but should still suffer drawbacks to keep everyone from being forced into it. To perfectly honest with you, if they wanted they could force DPS onto stamina, Healing on to magicka and Tanking into hybrid. It would be perfectly balanced, but deny player choices.

"I disagree with stamina hybridisation from a flavour point of view, yes, but not from a game-mechanics respect per se - I disagree with every detailed suggested method to achieve it thus posted"

See, this is two problems in one. You already consider the class Magicka so going stamina immediately makes it hybrid. Secondly, you're looking on it as a compromise from the get go because you've already stated that options shouldn't be taken from one to feed the other. However, if you want true build diversity, this has to happen. If you want to actually bring up the the stamina players, it means there has to be a loss for the Magicka players. There isn't some massive vacuum of power out there they can just magically bestow upon stamina builds to make the more viable without making concessions on the Magicka end. It shouldn't be unreasonable then to go by the data and see which skills get the least amount of use and consider those for change. It will hurt some players, but it gives others a chance to try new things and might even still be useful for Magicka based play styles (critical surge morph might only offer up brutality, but the increased crit heal might be a worthy trade off if you're already using another skill for major sorcery buff).

"Decouple resource from power..."

Think really hard before suggesting something like this, because it is literally taking a step back to 1.5. I'm not in love with resources = power, but they have raised the damage ceiling for many builds. Even if you could replace them with some other type of power gain, it doesn't change the fact that you need to have a reason to have large pools of one resource over the other. Otherwise, we might as well go back to health stacking with cost reduction and call it even.

"The person who threw it in the 'garbage' didn't want to - they had no choice as it was a trap choice. Trap choice does not equal choice, so please stop with the idiotic attempts to pass it off as valid choice. No-one chooses bad morphs unless they don't care, and how many people don't care - seriously..?"

Idiotic eh? Okay, so then tell me why my AOE Encase DOT sorc needs to take frags over blast? Why can't I favor Lighting Flood over Liquid Lighting? What is so wrong about me putting Deadric tomb on the bar so I can maximize my conal aoe dmg in cyrodill delves when grinding? (keeping in mind these are commonly associated with being poor choices, I personally have no opinion on them whatsoever)

Just because you and a few others don't find a use for something in your min/maxed build doesn't mean it can't serve a purpose. GRANTED that you're saying these options are non options... why can't they be stamina morphs then? If I ran any of these load outs and they got changed, sure I wouldn't be happy; but according to you, they were useless to begin with so my niche play style didn't matter any ways. Should they be changed into stronger versions of themselves? Maybe, but then it doesn't change the fact that someone is always going to pick 1 of the two morphs and tote it as best, and claim everyone using the other is wasting their time.

Advocating a 3 morph system is great and all, and in a perfect world each morph would be unique and support a variety of play styles right? Or was your idea that 2/3 morphs would support one play style and the new ones are passed on to "less desirable" play styles? As you pointed out, a useless morph is useless. You don't keep, it, you get rid of it or improve it. Messing with top end skills that high level players use is folly, but tweaking those skills that most people don't use is fair play. I mean it goes by consensus right? Therefore it's equal to general will of the players, right? No? Because consensus =/= fair or objective, oh right I forgot.

Asking for a 3 morph system is essentially asking for a new class or skill line or (my personal favorite) the removal of classes and the ability to mix and match skill lines. There is so much work involved in that because it still requires you to 'fix' broken or under used skills. Then on top of that it asks you to add in an additional skill even for skills where both morphs were already powerful. Lastly, you have to keep in mind that most of this stems from a comparative disparity between all the current classes. This doesn't fix that! It gives everyone a boost without balancing them out. It's better to simply fix what they have FIRST then look into adding additional morphs once people calm down about "this class is best at X and this class is worst at Y".

"Poll responses ARE data,"

Not always. Polls based on opinions are opinionated and the data is only relative to being.. well you guessed it I'm sure, an opinion. Polls based on facts and hard data are much more useful and impartial and don't factor in "flavor of the month, whine of the week biases". Polling for a business about customer satisfaction is much different than polling for actual uses and problems associated with a product. You ask different questions, get different results, and in most cases you want to conduct one in a manor where as little personal opinion comes into it as possible. Could you do this with a poll? Sure, but why would you when you can just access data you already have?

"This is the company that had to ask of am screenshot of the horse stop-start bug - a bug effective 100% of players with mounts all the time."

I hate to break it to you but graphical and movement bugs don't always pop up in Q.A. testing. Obviously they had trouble replicating the bug and wanted people to show them how it was happening. That doesn't excuse them for letting it through or being a bit slow to fix it, but it mean the process isn't perfect. Also, that isn't something you can just go to the player data tracker and see in the numbers. Players movement stutters for many reasons, and many of them are not bugs.

I could make an example about running a Minecraft sever and reading the player data recorded for various actions and show the comparison on how little client side information this actually delivers on, but the point it's a different game with a different engine is valid. Therefore with that analogy in mind: player mount movement data isn't something the same as "x skill does x dmg". Even with that in mind you have to consider that they would want people talking about all the different builds and set ups they use to create a picture around those numbers so they could better address the problem and make a more informed changed. Bringing us back the point of the forums or /feedback. This is why these things exist, to support the numbers. There is no need for additional middlemen steps to further complicate the process.

This is further supported by the fact that each week we get bug fixes for things most people aren't even aware of. That usually arises because of /bug reports, QA, people who are watching the numbers (possibly because they are working on something related and happen to discover the anomaly) and of course obscure forum post that maybe you aren't seeing because maybe you don't frequent that part of the forum.

"This is a company who publically dismissed Sorcerer PvE feedback based on videos of 1v1 PvP video... and who then said they would 'look at the numbers'."

This is a good point. Perfectly valid because you need to understand what it means. Why can sorcs do x amount of burst damage and still sustain other magicka spells (wards, BE, etc) in PVP to achieve X numbers but they can't do the same with even less need for those other skills in a PVE environment? I think that's a pretty god question. Why can you burst down a player from 25K HP + all their mitigation over 30-60 seconds but even doing half that damage to a stationary boss target is exponentially more difficult? Factoring mob resistances, ultimates CD and other factors, the disparity shouldn't be that big, yet it is. A problem like this needs a very close inspection, to avoid harming PVP numbers, or creating an unhealthy atmosphere for other classes.

I obviously must have some faith that ZOS is aware of this otherwise I wouldn't be playing the game, the same goes for you. Either you think they are aware of the problem and actively working to fix it (like me) or you think they need more help even finding the problem as well as fixing it (such as a poll). Listening to player opinion and squeaky wheels is why we don't have nice things like Imperial city, or Spell crafting or [insert missing feature]. ZOS is fixing problems FIRST, adding features SECOND. If you think there is something they need to fix, again you're in the right place to get it addressed.

" I disagree with every detailed suggested method to achieve it thus posted, and to muddy the water a handful of the proposers have labelled me as whatever version of hater/selfish yada yada, because I had the temerity to tell them their proposals wouldn't work and were going to negatively impacts others."

That is a problem. You're being more destructive, than constructive. Sure, you don't like stamina players trying to push their way onto your magic class, but the funny thing is DragonKnights make better flame Mages than sorcerers make... well anything. It's not just about class, it's about races, weapon damage, elements, many things. There are problems at every turn here and instead of shooting down ideas, why not offer suggestions to improve them. That doesn't mean you need to make someone feel inferior then come up with a completely different idea from what they had and tell them that is what they want or need.

I want Sorcerers to be more competitive not just because I like playing the class, but I love seeing other people play differently from myself. Rather than grumble about how "their stealing our jo-skills", there should be some kind of middle ground to support the idea that stam skills can work, with out a complete overhaul of the game being needed.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

"That is a problem. You're being more destructive, than constructive. Sure, you don't like stamina players trying to push their way onto your magic class, but the funny thing is DragonKnights make better flame Mages than sorcerers make... well anything. It's not just about class, it's about races, weapon damage, elements, many things. There are problems at every turn here and instead of shooting down ideas, why not offer suggestions to improve them."

I suggest you read 'Erock and followers' answers to my suggestions on alternative changes on this and other threads.

In every case they were dismissed as 'impossible', 'you can't do that', and 'Zenimax can't do that' simply because they weren't what those people wanted.

There was no logic behind the rabid dismissals - just tunnel vision - one problem, one preferred solution, and a hell of a PvP benefit if they get what they want - another thing I've flagged that they refuse to acknowledge because it's undeniable and if generally realised will mean their plans will get shot down in flames, or changed to the point they don't get their IWIN button served up to them.

Well I have made better suggestions and less exclusive ones - they just require more effort and more joined-up thinking from Zenimax to do.

Moreover I have suggested that Zenimax take the time to understand where the lion's share of concerns really are and act on those - even if they don't match my personal opinions.

To which I get you telling me such an approach is not going to work.

Follow your own advice why don't ya - come up with solutions yourself, because all I see so far is a lot of picking apart suggested solutions, the path to find the right solutions. You go to great lengths to engage in denial and critique and yet add nothing on which to build something better...

... Let's see your ideas...

You've quickly gone from just an annoying sideshow to one of my favorite posters on these forums. Keep up the good work Byrom. The amount of effort you have put in to attempt to dissuade ZOS from adding two stam morphs is commendable. Two thumbs up for 'Erock and followers'.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

"That is a problem. You're being more destructive, than constructive. Sure, you don't like stamina players trying to push their way onto your magic class, but the funny thing is DragonKnights make better flame Mages than sorcerers make... well anything. It's not just about class, it's about races, weapon damage, elements, many things. There are problems at every turn here and instead of shooting down ideas, why not offer suggestions to improve them."

I suggest you read 'Erock and followers' answers to my suggestions on alternative changes on this and other threads.

In every case they were dismissed as 'impossible', 'you can't do that', and 'Zenimax can't do that' simply because they weren't what those people wanted.

There was no logic behind the rabid dismissals - just tunnel vision - one problem, one preferred solution, and a hell of a PvP benefit if they get what they want - another thing I've flagged that they refuse to acknowledge because it's undeniable and if generally realised will mean their plans will get shot down in flames, or changed to the point they don't get their IWIN button served up to them.

Well I have made better suggestions and less exclusive ones - they just require more effort and more joined-up thinking from Zenimax to do.

Moreover I have suggested that Zenimax take the time to understand where the lion's share of concerns really are and act on those - even if they don't match my personal opinions.

To which I get you telling me such an approach is not going to work.

Follow your own advice why don't ya - come up with solutions yourself, because all I see so far is a lot of picking apart suggested solutions, the path to find the right solutions. You go to great lengths to engage in denial and critique and yet add nothing on which to build something better...

... Let's see your ideas...

You've quickly gone from just an annoying sideshow to one of my favorite posters on these forums. Keep up the good work Byrom. The amount of effort you have put in to attempt to dissuade ZOS from adding two stam morphs is commendable. Two thumbs up for 'Erock and followers'.

Clumsy transparent attempts at reverse psychology don't suit you.

Either comment on the idea of a poll or go troll somewhere else.

Sarcasm is not reverse psychology. I suggest you stop using 'erock and followers' and 'erock et al' if you want serious responses from me. You're trying to lump everyone who would enjoy stamina options on a sorc into some sort of cabal instead of realizing it is a fairly popular opinion of many separate and individual people.

Erock25 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

"That is a problem. You're being more destructive, than constructive. Sure, you don't like stamina players trying to push their way onto your magic class, but the funny thing is DragonKnights make better flame Mages than sorcerers make... well anything. It's not just about class, it's about races, weapon damage, elements, many things. There are problems at every turn here and instead of shooting down ideas, why not offer suggestions to improve them."

I suggest you read 'Erock and followers' answers to my suggestions on alternative changes on this and other threads.

In every case they were dismissed as 'impossible', 'you can't do that', and 'Zenimax can't do that' simply because they weren't what those people wanted.

There was no logic behind the rabid dismissals - just tunnel vision - one problem, one preferred solution, and a hell of a PvP benefit if they get what they want - another thing I've flagged that they refuse to acknowledge because it's undeniable and if generally realised will mean their plans will get shot down in flames, or changed to the point they don't get their IWIN button served up to them.

Well I have made better suggestions and less exclusive ones - they just require more effort and more joined-up thinking from Zenimax to do.

Moreover I have suggested that Zenimax take the time to understand where the lion's share of concerns really are and act on those - even if they don't match my personal opinions.

To which I get you telling me such an approach is not going to work.

Follow your own advice why don't ya - come up with solutions yourself, because all I see so far is a lot of picking apart suggested solutions, the path to find the right solutions. You go to great lengths to engage in denial and critique and yet add nothing on which to build something better...

... Let's see your ideas...

You've quickly gone from just an annoying sideshow to one of my favorite posters on these forums. Keep up the good work Byrom. The amount of effort you have put in to attempt to dissuade ZOS from adding two stam morphs is commendable. Two thumbs up for 'Erock and followers'.

Clumsy transparent attempts at reverse psychology don't suit you.

Either comment on the idea of a poll or go troll somewhere else.

Sarcasm is not reverse psychology. I suggest you stop using 'erock and followers' and 'erock et al' if you want serious responses from me. You're trying to lump everyone who would enjoy stamina options on a sorc into some sort of cabal instead of realizing it is a fairly popular opinion of many separate and individual people.

I'm going to stop asking you to comment on the idea of a poll.

Your personal opinion about the popularity of your own agenda isn't something you want challenged with the facts, or indeed, supported by them it would seem.

Why take the risk of being wrong when you can say your take on things is 'fairly popular' without a shred of empirical evidence.

In the interests of fairness and engagement for everyone else here, I am done with you on this thread.

Maybe now you won't have an excuse to spam the same old 'irrelevant to the thread' material in order to stifle useful debate.

I tested now nearly all builds for hours in PvP/PvE:

I can summarize it easy what is needed to give more balance:

1. Crystal Blast need to be Instant(Take Stun and some DMG away) for Tanks to suit for Blood-Magic(Passive 8% Life). Tanks cannot cast and Life Based Sorcerers are far to weak. A Magicka stacking Sorcerer can casts high Wards, high DPS, high Self-Heals. I don't know if a Developer ever tryed Cyrodiil. A Sorcerer Tank cannot even destroy the Ward and is eaten by a Teleport Sorcerer. Maybe that's true for every Classes Tanks. The good DDs stacking for high DPS has BOTH High DPS and High Heal. A Tank cannot kill them without luck in CC, because they lack damage against the very high Self-Heal/Wards.

2. Bound Aegis ist to weak. It could be added a Healing-Received passive to strengthen Life-based Builds.

3. Pets are far to weak. A Build without Pets doing more than doubled Damage without having Pets that ruin your Movement. For Cyrodiil PvP it's really terrible balance: Pets are more than far to weak. 1. The Winged Twilight is a One-Shot by nearly every Instant Cast/Shot Whatever of DD. The Summoner has higher Costs to recast his Summon and needs 1.3 seconds for it. That make these Summons Senseless. 2. The Controll is really poor. Maybe the Player should have the ability to choose that your Pets stay always by your side and attacks always your Target. Most times the Pets doing ***. And what I mean is not pushing Y+Click for every Target. Please automate it. 3. The DPS of the Pets is a joke.
Solutions: 1. Add 5000 HP, 20% more Damage to enemy Players etc. (The Cyrodiil Buff) to Pets. to close the Gap between PvP and PvE, because PvP needs Brain but Pets(Computer) cannot have one. 2. Let the Hitpoints of the Sorcerer scale with the Life of the Pets like Magicka scales with their Damage. 3. Raise their Damage. 4. If their is no Instant Crystal Blast for Self-Heal Possibilities to Tanks, the Clannfear need to be a Instant Cast.

4. Daedric Prey should be a DoT(6 seconds are purged in PvP and make this Cast useless, because only 1 Purge ruin the active Prey and aswell the following Prey - DMG is only made AFTER 6 seconds, but is reduced by Purge). 6 seconds to boost the low Pets damage does not worth the afford and should become a longer Duration.

5. The Heal Effect of the Twilight Matriarch is a joke.

6. The Hardened Ward is totally OP and should nerfed at Rank IV to a bonus of 25% like the Empowered Ward Rank IV grants only a bonus of 25% to the Damage of the Pets. The Wards are aswell in need of a fix. Medium Armor Sorcerers that can spam Dodging Rolls are in 1vs1 invincible because there is no Damage done to the shield, while you evade. But if you block, full Damage is done to it. The Abilities a Sorcerer offers make the choose very easy Light>Medium>Heavy. There should be a rethink to nerf the shields and include instead 50% Mitigation of Armor, Spell Resistance, Block, Evade.

7. The Cooldown of Surge Heals should be removed and the Crits of Pets should heal a Sorcerer with active Surge.

8. Bolt Escape aswell spammable Hide of Nightblades should be fixed. I just lost many friends to other games because of these annoying builds. A Bolt Escape should drop Magicka Recovery to 0 but costs need to be reduced. A Sorcerer could still teleport away, but could not annoy other players by teleporting 100 times until he killed you. That would force Sorcerers to make Heavy attacks to spam Bolt Escapes and give other players a chance.