What Sorcerer Players REALLY Need...

byrom101b16_ESO

Ygaer wrote: »

I think the thing that bothers me about Sorc's (of which I am one and has been my only max rank toon since release) is that nowadays our DPS is basically reliant on a cheezy setup and boring "rotation" to reach ridiculously good numbers. Last night I did 22k DPS on Urata over 16 seconds with overload and one liquid lightning. It was funny, but it wasn't fun. The problem is if I don't use overload, then I'm a really pedestrian DPS who also doesn't have any real utility to my group/raid other than a really watered down negate that's generally just a matter of convenience. Right now, Sorcs are extremely competitive as a trials DPS class simply because of Overload, but if you take it away or nerf it then we'll go back to being pretty undesirable like a few months ago.

What I really wish for is that Sorcs just got a really nice passive boost to spell damage while using a destro/resto staff. I wouldn't be encouraged to use a dwield/2h setup for my execute bar because it offers more spell damage, and it'd also give Sorcs a bump in healing over DKs and NBs who still have much more useful class skills in that area, while also increasing our sustainable DPS a bit. Then you can make Overload less stupid so that the best damage in the game can't be done while spamming left click.

You say they are competitive using a 16 second example with spamming and ultimate.

That's really not helpful commentary, nor accurate. Sustained dps is poor in PvE, spike dps is perhaps too good in PvP.

Sorcerers need looking at to resolve this and many other issues.

byrom101b16_ESO

Cogo wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

***WHAT???***

The Sorcerer class is just fine (within limits). Maybe a bit TOO fine when you see the chenanigans of Teh_Magus.

If you are right, a decent poll would identify THAT as the truth...

... I assume then you are support of it!?

A poll will get the truth?
Um....ok. So if enough people say one thing, its true?
Knowledge must be a good way too? Lets share some!

Go ask the good skilled sorcerers for tips. Look around all skills and try stuffs. Player skill takes time. Can't be bought for crowns. Ability to adapt is more OP then any class skill.

Sorcerers don't have good stamina damage?
Sure, sucks going 2H with overload, doesn't it? Might be the biggest damage in game apart from Sieges and Synergies?
I am not trying to be rude, but explaining why maybe tweaking the class isn't the first place to look.

• Fixing buggy and trial-useless pets and their mechanics
  Yes, they are a bit buggy but at least your pet don't insta die. ZoS saying they get a fix. (I don't count bugs)
  
• Reducing or eliminating the prevalence of toggle skills
  So..you want to pay magika for a toggle skill?
  
• Reducing the unparalleled spike damage potential of PvP Sorcs.
  PvP - any class got all kinds of "spike damage". Up to the players and gear, more then class.
  A level 10 with sieges, or even hide/sneak attack does more damage then any "normal" attacks.
  There isn't a problem here. Elaborate?
  
• Increasing the low sustained dps of Sorcerers relative to other classes
  To many examples. Look around the class skills, ultimates and morphs. Combine them with many different sets and abilities (Global). Oh, light and heavy attacks.... And that freakin OP pet!
  
  Your magika attacks scales of your pool of magika, which you by class have a lot of. Theorycrafting sorcerers does more damage with magika attacks then all other 3 classes. In theory....
  
  DPS is might trick you. Sometimes doing less damage but constant is better. Sometimes burst DPS. Or weave in stuns, interupts, heals, buffs or what not. Even light/heavy attacks counts now. Type of damage is important too. Did I mention your pet is OP since you can just re-summon it?
  
  DPS is nice but not the tool to value your damage.
  
• Replacing useless or redundant magicka skills with better ones
  What ability? Non are useless? Explain?
  
• Increasing synergy, which is poor as the class currently stands
  Try surge and get your team members to press the damn synergy key. This is a common misconception.
  Power comes from your team mates ability to press X (or where the heck it is.)
  The abilities are fine.
  
• Giving the class back it's utility, which was nerfed in PvE due largely to PvP complaints
  Um, nope. The class skills got balanced, adding a buff/debuff system and made ultimates utility work with different effects with both morph and stacking of other skills.
  
  Before 1.6, there was just 1 ultimate with 1 set morph for all Sorcerers = Negate Magic (or kick from group).
  
  The class got much more utility in 1.6 and reduced any obvious OP choice.
  Also, changed due to complaints. Isn't that what you trying to do? Hows that bad?
  
• Reducing reliance on non-class abilities, which are often considerably more superior
  You lost me. So global abilities that everyone can use are......unbalanced? Because.....everyone can use them? Please elaborate. What skill(s) are sorcerers more reliant on then the other 3 classes? Or other builds of sorcerers?
  
  You can pick what you want but not at the same time. Again, it is about player skill. Not the skill itself.
  Note: Just because one build seams good, you might do better with something else`.
  
• Replacing useless Sorcerer skill morphs with better magicka morphs
  Sorcerers are focus magika but not bound only to use magika.
  Skill A may not be what you want in build B, but that doesn't make it useless. Look again. Ask mighty mages!
  How much spell penetration should you have over other 3 classes?
  
• Hybridising useless Sorcerer magicka skills with stamina morphs
  You want to hybrid or think hybrid is useless?
  They made all class skills valid. But non OP.
  
• Making Sorcerer main-healing viable at all
  Sorcerers are focus magika. Not healing (Thats the OP Templar class). Sorcerers have magika ways to heal, regen and absorb damage. Check again!
  
  Block and healing potions works!
  And that freakin shield of yours!
  
  Healing staff everyone can do. Its about magika pool and crit. Which the class got lots in.
  
• Making Sorcerer tanking more viable
  Gear, type of armor, block and simple move is much more tank then any class (DK selfheal is good though).
  Again, Sorcerers are focused Magika. They have class skills for other things but do not master them.
  
  You have magika. There are skills that use magika to heal, absorb or defend you. Look around.
  Heavy attack returns quite a bit of magika. Bit to much maybe....
  
• Making non-staff Sorcerers more viable
  Erhm. Overload, light attacks, Undaunted, any damn melee weapon!
  
  Weapons across the board isnt that heavy reliant on class skill. Helps but use your build is far more important. You can choose widely but not all at the same time.
  
• Removing cooldown on Surge random damage proc self-heal and replacing with more reliable mechanic
  The cooldown and proc are balanced with other classes skills. Common mistake only to look at your class and not how gimp DK GOT! Classes are not mirror of each other. But balanced.
  
  Sorcerers got a big advantage over other classes when it comes to magika damage use. Helps healing too...
  

Chat with some of the grand Magus (heh) in Cyro. Look around at skills, global skills, morphs, gear and factor in buff/debuff. You might find good things I haven't.

Your frustration might be valid, but not your conclusion where to look for a solution!

Please read the post again - you have entirely missed the point.

This isn't an exercise in trying to get the entire list changed for the 'better', its one in trying to get the entire list sensibly analysed and fixes prioritised from the experience of a representative number of actual players.

This is a summary list FROM those players...

I didn't put my personal take on these issues on the thread and you putting yours here doesn't add anything useful.

I also find your assumptions entirely invalid - I am a good Sorcerer player. But this is entirely besides the point.

With the greatest respect, your opinion is as irrelevant as mine in this thread...

The class needs analysing from the opinions of many, and changes prioritising on that basis.

The whole problem with Zenimax's approach in the past has been to prioritise change based on noisy minority lobby groups and small numbers of elite guilds, both of whom have their own agendas, and then only on small numbers of issues at a time looked at in relative isolation, such as fixing something in PvP without effectively considering the impact on PvE (and visa versa).

I am calling for a different approach, not for people to post with their personal take on things.

So I'd ask that you post with that in mind please, not just telling us what you think is right.

AltusVenifus

I agree with everything you wrote, but how do you implement all of this and bring them down to earth in PVP?

Drago Belsazar

jelliedsoup wrote: »

More dps and tanking and I'd give up pvp altogether.

Exactly. My greatest wish would be a in strength to other classes comparable Sorcerer Tank. The Bloodmagic Passive is to weak for Self-Heal AND there are no decent Instant(i.e. a weaker Instant Shard without Stun) Casts to use this Self-Heal as a Tank. That's why Life is pretty Useless for Sorcerer. The Sorcerer is in need for Life-Scaling abilities, and the only one that exist is the Clannfear which is a really bad one. A Tank can't cast. And I really believe, that Zenimax should find a way to strengthen this natural Life based Tank, Heavy Armor - Not the Magicka Shield based Tank - because there are Ages between them. At the Moment a Magicka Sorcerer with Damage-Shields survive more, while he's making far more damage.

What I also think is, that the Sorcerer with Surge+Blood Magic don't need a Direct Self-Heal like Dragon Blood. Surge+Blood Magic are like HoT Effects and to stay in Line with these specific Abilities of Sorcerer, it should be more like a HoT Dragon Blood with regen Effects. A Direct Heal would compete with Surge+Blood Magic and would prevent them to "work".

Another good idea to strengthen Tank-Builds/AoE DPS at the cost of more risk is to change one Morph of Lightning Splash to an Aura like Lightning Form.

On my List too:
-Remove Cooldown of Surge
-Velocious Curse changed to a DoT
-Both Forms of Aegis are to weak and are in need of a Buff. In Addition I think they should strengthen your Defence instead your DPS, that would be more logical as long it's shown as an Armor.
-Do not weaken Magicka Sorcerer by changing Morphs to Stamina.

byrom101b16_ESO

Drago Belsazar wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

More dps and tanking and I'd give up pvp altogether.

Exactly. My greatest wish would be a in strength to other classes comparable Sorcerer Tank. The Bloodmagic Passive is to weak for Self-Heal AND there are no decent Instant(i.e. a weaker Instant Shard without Stun) Casts to use this Self-Heal as a Tank. That's why Life is pretty Useless for Sorcerer. The Sorcerer is in need for Life-Scaling abilities, and the only one that exist is the Clannfear which is a really bad one. A Tank can't cast. And I really believe, that Zenimax should find a way to strengthen this natural Life based Tank, Heavy Armor - Not the Magicka Shield based Tank - because there are Ages between them. At the Moment a Magicka Sorcerer with Damage-Shields survive more, while he's making far more damage.

What I also think is, that the Sorcerer with Surge+Blood Magic don't need a Direct Self-Heal like Dragon Blood. Surge+Blood Magic are like HoT Effects and to stay in Line with these specific Abilities of Sorcerer, it should be more like a HoT Dragon Blood with regen Effects. A Direct Heal would compete with Surge+Blood Magic and would prevent them to "work".

Another good idea to strengthen Tank-Builds/AoE DPS at the cost of more risk is to change one Morph of Lightning Splash to an Aura like Lightning Form.

On my List too:
-Remove Cooldown of Surge
-Velocious Curse changed to a DoT
-Both Forms of Aegis are to weak and are in need of a Buff. In Addition I think they should strengthen your Defence instead your DPS, that would be more logical as long it's shown as an Armor.
-Do not weaken Magicka Sorcerer by changing Morphs to Stamina.

Thanks for the list. The idea however is not to be specific on how changes need to be made, but to make clear what needs to be changed.

Although I personally agree with your last point - the list must be inclusive of all opinions, so for this and the above reasons the list will remain unchanged, as in general goal terms it is in fact inclusive of your suggestions alongside those of others.

LameoveR

@Drago Belsazar
About armor: sorc has Ward.
About tanking - sorcs are good tanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q20Uq90cC4U

Joy_Division

As one of the many people who have criticized ZoS's neglect of sorcerers in the past, I feel obliged to say this: the class is in less need of "fixing" than the other three right now. It is true there is a lack of synergy for stamina sorcs, toggles are annoying, some of their skills are inefficient or ineffective, but I will say that in the SO raid I run with (which has many of the top scores). it is a sorc who parses the highest DPS and the class is a beast in PvP.

Ygaer

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Ygaer wrote: »

I think the thing that bothers me about Sorc's (of which I am one and has been my only max rank toon since release) is that nowadays our DPS is basically reliant on a cheezy setup and boring "rotation" to reach ridiculously good numbers. Last night I did 22k DPS on Urata over 16 seconds with overload and one liquid lightning. It was funny, but it wasn't fun. The problem is if I don't use overload, then I'm a really pedestrian DPS who also doesn't have any real utility to my group/raid other than a really watered down negate that's generally just a matter of convenience. Right now, Sorcs are extremely competitive as a trials DPS class simply because of Overload, but if you take it away or nerf it then we'll go back to being pretty undesirable like a few months ago.

What I really wish for is that Sorcs just got a really nice passive boost to spell damage while using a destro/resto staff. I wouldn't be encouraged to use a dwield/2h setup for my execute bar because it offers more spell damage, and it'd also give Sorcs a bump in healing over DKs and NBs who still have much more useful class skills in that area, while also increasing our sustainable DPS a bit. Then you can make Overload less stupid so that the best damage in the game can't be done while spamming left click.

You say they are competitive using a 16 second example with spamming and ultimate.

That's really not helpful commentary, nor accurate. Sustained dps is poor in PvE, spike dps is perhaps too good in PvP.

Sorcerers need looking at to resolve this and many other issues.

Let's be very clear, that was simply an example of how stupid overload can be. Give me any fight in the game that I go into with full ultimate and a sorc should do as good DPS as anyone else, and depending on the simplicity of the encounter and the number of targets, probably even more. It's a simple fact that power overload light attacks are too ridiculously strong right now. 1000 ultimate will last almost 70 seconds if you're spamming light attacks, and I've easily averaged over 20k per hit of the light attack, sometimes even more depending on war horn and combat prayer. The problem is that if I don't use overload at all because it's boring and the gameplay is hardly interesting, THEN my DPS is pretty pedestrian, and I agree with that.

My proposed solution is pretty simple and I think addresses the core issue well. The reason this is so bad is because of how effective it is to use 2h/dwield on the off bar to get an extra 400 spell power which ends up being a huge boost to overload. If sorcs had a passive to get that spell damage boost on destro/resto staves, it would make their regular sustained DPS much better while making overload worse than it is now by comparison, and instead of being a must to do comparable (or more) DPS than DKs and what not, I'd have more flexibility with deciding what to use for my ult, and I'd enjoy playing the game more since I'd be doing more than left clicking.

Seriously, if you play a sorc and you haven't tried out the dwield/2h offbar for overload, go do it before you comment anymore. It is so ridiculously strong and better than anything else Sorcs can do for DPS, it's just dumb.

byrom101b16_ESO

Ygaer wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Ygaer wrote: »

I think the thing that bothers me about Sorc's (of which I am one and has been my only max rank toon since release) is that nowadays our DPS is basically reliant on a cheezy setup and boring "rotation" to reach ridiculously good numbers. Last night I did 22k DPS on Urata over 16 seconds with overload and one liquid lightning. It was funny, but it wasn't fun. The problem is if I don't use overload, then I'm a really pedestrian DPS who also doesn't have any real utility to my group/raid other than a really watered down negate that's generally just a matter of convenience. Right now, Sorcs are extremely competitive as a trials DPS class simply because of Overload, but if you take it away or nerf it then we'll go back to being pretty undesirable like a few months ago.

What I really wish for is that Sorcs just got a really nice passive boost to spell damage while using a destro/resto staff. I wouldn't be encouraged to use a dwield/2h setup for my execute bar because it offers more spell damage, and it'd also give Sorcs a bump in healing over DKs and NBs who still have much more useful class skills in that area, while also increasing our sustainable DPS a bit. Then you can make Overload less stupid so that the best damage in the game can't be done while spamming left click.

You say they are competitive using a 16 second example with spamming and ultimate.

That's really not helpful commentary, nor accurate. Sustained dps is poor in PvE, spike dps is perhaps too good in PvP.

Sorcerers need looking at to resolve this and many other issues.

Let's be very clear, that was simply an example of how stupid overload can be. Give me any fight in the game that I go into with full ultimate and a sorc should do as good DPS as anyone else, and depending on the simplicity of the encounter and the number of targets, probably even more. It's a simple fact that power overload light attacks are too ridiculously strong right now. 1000 ultimate will last almost 70 seconds if you're spamming light attacks, and I've easily averaged over 20k per hit of the light attack, sometimes even more depending on war horn and combat prayer. The problem is that if I don't use overload at all because it's boring and the gameplay is hardly interesting, THEN my DPS is pretty pedestrian, and I agree with that.

My proposed solution is pretty simple and I think addresses the core issue well. The reason this is so bad is because of how effective it is to use 2h/dwield on the off bar to get an extra 400 spell power which ends up being a huge boost to overload. If sorcs had a passive to get that spell damage boost on destro/resto staves, it would make their regular sustained DPS much better while making overload worse than it is now by comparison, and instead of being a must to do comparable (or more) DPS than DKs and what not, I'd have more flexibility with deciding what to use for my ult, and I'd enjoy playing the game more since I'd be doing more than left clicking.

Seriously, if you play a sorc and you haven't tried out the dwield/2h offbar for overload, go do it before you comment anymore. It is so ridiculously strong and better than anything else Sorcs can do for DPS, it's just dumb.

20K per bolt average for 70 seconds... lets see the evidentiary video on another thread - this one isn't about any one's person opinions or claims, spurious or otherwise.

Weapon load-outs effect all classes using the same resource, and this is about Sorcerer concerns, not weapon skill imbalances.

byrom101b16_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

As one of the many people who have criticized ZoS's neglect of sorcerers in the past, I feel obliged to say this: the class is in less need of "fixing" than the other three right now. It is true there is a lack of synergy for stamina sorcs, toggles are annoying, some of their skills are inefficient or ineffective, but I will say that in the SO raid I run with (which has many of the top scores). it is a sorc who parses the highest DPS and the class is a beast in PvP.

This might be true, but this thread isn't about other classes.

If you want the other classes to get attention, make your own thread summary as I have.

Ygaer

Look, I'm pretty realistic and I make a pointed effort to be objective about things involving numbers, since there really is a "right" and a "wrong" when it comes to math. You can go back 2 weeks and look at my posts and see me complaining about sorceror DPS and how much we're in need of something to make us on par with other classes in terms of utility and viability. I don't have the ability/knowledge to make videos for you to prove something, but I know for a fact I'm not the only sorc player who is using overload light attacks to do stupid DPS over long periods of time. It's really very easy to see for yourself, like I said, go get a purple 2h weapon, swap into overload while using it and just pop structured entropy every 15 seconds (from your overload bar of course). You will do a lot more single target DPS than you've ever done before, and it is pretty much as easy of a "rotation" as there exists in the game.

My objective in this thread is to be reasonable/rational about what Sorcs need. If we just get plain buffed without anyone acknowledging what methods we already have right now for being incredibly good DPS, then it's simply not fair. What we need is a method to do better sustained DPS without overload, because that's what's lacking. However, I no longer agree that Sorceror's aren't great DPS in trials, because it's simply not true. We are, we're amazing DPS in trials. We just don't have the utility DKs and nightblades can offer, but we absolutely most definitely have the DPS.

LameoveR

Oh, about Power Surge.
Would be good if it will have 5sec Empower buff.
This change will not touch any PVP aspect, because Entropy is cheaper, but will give some advantage to PVE builds.

Nutronic

I just personally don't believe a survey thrown up in game would be the best way to get good honest unbiased answers. Especially if those answers are based around a laundry list of problems concocted by various sects of sorc players. If it needs to be s survey, hold it on the forums or put it in the game news/announcements as a link. Otherwise, people can spread by word of mouth a dev created thread (much like the AMA thread) where people leave their feed back. Forcing people to take the survey means you'll get trolls, non-sorc players, and very unexperienced players who might make poor suggestions based on limited game play experience.

byrom101b16_ESO

Ygaer wrote: »

Look, I'm pretty realistic and I make a pointed effort to be objective about things involving numbers, since there really is a "right" and a "wrong" when it comes to math. You can go back 2 weeks and look at my posts and see me complaining about sorceror DPS and how much we're in need of something to make us on par with other classes in terms of utility and viability. I don't have the ability/knowledge to make videos for you to prove something, but I know for a fact I'm not the only sorc player who is using overload light attacks to do stupid DPS over long periods of time. It's really very easy to see for yourself, like I said, go get a purple 2h weapon, swap into overload while using it and just pop structured entropy every 15 seconds (from your overload bar of course). You will do a lot more single target DPS than you've ever done before, and it is pretty much as easy of a "rotation" as there exists in the game.

My objective in this thread is to be reasonable/rational about what Sorcs need. If we just get plain buffed without anyone acknowledging what methods we already have right now for being incredibly good DPS, then it's simply not fair. What we need is a method to do better sustained DPS without overload, because that's what's lacking. However, I no longer agree that Sorceror's aren't great DPS in trials, because it's simply not true. We are, we're amazing DPS in trials. We just don't have the utility DKs and nightblades can offer, but we absolutely most definitely have the DPS.

I understand your position.

However, there are plenty of people who don't agree with it, and this thread is about having an all-inclusive survey covering all issues raised.

The purpose of the poll itself would be to see what the majority of players are really concerned about.

The forums are populated by, as I said, an unrepresentatively high proportion of lobbyists and trolls, and so a poll here would therefore not reflect the truth of the way Sorc. players are currently thinking about their class. That doesn't however mean the poll would have to be mandatory if put in the launcher. I am not advocating that at all.

So, in an optional poll whose existence is seen by all players, if the comparative trial dps is fine - then the poll returns should show relatively low %'s of people saying otherwise. Likewise if utility is indeed poor, then high %'s of respondents should reflect this.

The 'LIST' isn't about what is right or wrong - it's about being as inclusive as possible to the issue that will be considered, it isn't an attempt to claim all of the points in it are valid.

So rather than counterpoint on some of the items in the list (which misses the point) just state whether you are for or against the idea.

Thanks.

P.S. So far Zenimax haven't bothered to post on this thread despite it being largely positive in approach. Likewise they have said they are planning changes which tackle less than half the points in the list and are entirely contrary to some of them. They are being selective, and this is based on FAR less feedback from players than would be considered representative of what the majority want.

However, these changes are pegged for around 8 months away in terms of delivery date. This gives them the opportunity to discover what the Sorc. player-base want, in what numbers, and which issues are the most important to them.

It would seem axiomatic that they should see the merit in engaging with the player-base in a way as, or similar to what I suggest. Making decisions about significant class changes should be based on a sound understanding of the issues most important to that classes' players.

This is true of all classes of course...

But right now - there is no explanation as to why change 'x' is planned over change 'y', or why only some proponents of change are getting what they want in the face of others who will be negatively impacted by it.

Most change disadvantages someone... best to ensure that if those people are your customers, that you minimise the negative to the smallest minority of your paying players as possible, and you cannot do that without understanding the breakdown of opinion and associated numbers.

A representative poll with the right questions is the only sure way to deliver this, and actually, really isn't that difficult or time consuming to set up.

Companies the world over poll their client-base and make product decisions based on the results.

Why should MMO suppliers be any different?

The fact is - we want to enjoy ESO, and we don't want to feel marginalised or unfairly dealt with in our experience with the game.

byrom101b16_ESO

LameoveR wrote: »

Oh, about Power Surge.
Would be good if it will have 5sec Empower buff.
This change will not touch any PVP aspect, because Entropy is cheaper, but will give some advantage to PVE builds.

I think the list covers this under a more general heading.

Mumnoch

CP5 wrote: »

This about sums it up. @ZOS_GinaBruno, any word yet from Eric's team as to sorcerer changes? I recall a post made back in February saying that he was looking it over but didn't have a chance to post a write up and was wondering if they were intending on reviewing feedback for so long without providing some word as to what they were doing, if anything at all.

lol.

They have already stated in live streams (didn't bother watching the latest) that Sorc's was fine the way they were (being behind all classes in all roles). You guys want the Sorc to have some meaningful improvements good luck, I'm not planning on pissing in the wind for these changes though.

Moderator note: Edited per our rules on rude and insulting comments.

CP5

Mumnoch wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

This about sums it up. @ZOS_GinaBruno, any word yet from Eric's team as to sorcerer changes? I recall a post made back in February saying that he was looking it over but didn't have a chance to post a write up and was wondering if they were intending on reviewing feedback for so long without providing some word as to what they were doing, if anything at all.

lol.

They have already stated in live streams (didn't bother watching the latest) that Sorc's was fine the way they were (being behind all classes in all roles). You guys want the Sorc to have some meaningful improvements good luck, I'm not planning on pissing in the wind for these changes though.

Yah I know, but its worth a shot, if only to pass the time. I made a reply in another thread pointing out how the 1.6 changes went counter to a lot of what Eric was saying on the ESO Live prior to 1.6 going live. If they don't change anything anytime soon then so be it but whenever I get that itch to reply the only fix for it is for me to write something. I try to resist sometimes but it doesn't work.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Drago Belsazar

LameoveR wrote: »

@Drago Belsazar
About armor: sorc has Ward.
About tanking - sorcs are good tanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q20Uq90cC4U

Mate, please begin read my posts. Did I say "Buff Wards"? I know Sorcerer has Wards. I know Wards are Strong, but I don't get it what they have to do with Life-Scaling abilities? If you wear Heavy Armor your Wards are wasted, because there are no Damage Mitigation and with high Life and lower Magicka your Wards are low. A natural Tank, as the word itself describes best, wear Heavy Armor.

You post now in every Thread this Video and claiming Sorcerer Tanks are good.

1.) I don't see a Tank in your Video.
2.) I mentioned the Gap between Life(Heavy-Armor) possibilities and Magicka(Higher-DPS+Ward) Sorcerers; So don't get me wrong. All I ask for were more versatility. Shall I ask now for Nerf Ward to "strengthen" Life, only that you understand me right? I don't want it nerfed. I want buffs for WEAK builds.

ishilb14_ESO

Limiting Negate Magic to only negate already cast ground AoEs was understandable, but they should change the silence so that a person can't just stun-break and continue normally while still under the bubble; you can't just stun break and continue fighting as normal while in a standard or nova can you? The Regen effects and the Reduce damage buff/spell penetration are so meaningless that one doesn't even notice the effects at all. Negate Magic was nerfed into the ground such that it's 12 second duration is all but meaningless as most people under it will just stun break within the first 4 and continue on as normal as though no ultimate was even cast on them.

Glurin

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

[*] Hybridising useless Sorcerer magicka skills with stamina morphs

You know, I see this talk of changing a bunch of sorcerer morphs to have stamina on them scattered all over the forums and I have to ask, if you wanted to play a warrior, why did you choose to play a sorcerer?

I understand wanting to play as a battlemage. Being a mage that wears armor and can hit things with weapons and hit them with a bolt of lightning at the same time. That's the way I like to do things. But I think people might be forgetting the "mage" part of battlemage. Mage, as in magic. You specialize in throwing fireballs from your fingers by tapping into the cosmic energy flow or whatever and creating fire. Leave the grunting to shoot fire out your butt to the warriors who've had too much ale and decided to play with a torch.

If it's about game balance of hybrid builds, then we'd be better off with another solution IMO. One that doesn't involve sacrificing diversity by splitting the sorcerer class into only two possible versions.

byrom101b16_ESO

Glurin wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

[*] Hybridising useless Sorcerer magicka skills with stamina morphs

You know, I see this talk of changing a bunch of sorcerer morphs to have stamina on them scattered all over the forums and I have to ask, if you wanted to play a warrior, why did you choose to play a sorcerer?

I understand wanting to play as a battlemage. Being a mage that wears armor and can hit things with weapons and hit them with a bolt of lightning at the same time. That's the way I like to do things. But I think people might be forgetting the "mage" part of battlemage. Mage, as in magic. You specialize in throwing fireballs from your fingers by tapping into the cosmic energy flow or whatever and creating fire. Leave the grunting to shoot fire out your butt to the warriors who've had too much ale and decided to play with a torch.

If it's about game balance of hybrid builds, then we'd be better off with another solution IMO. One that doesn't involve sacrificing diversity by splitting the sorcerer class into only two possible versions.

And I agree completely with you on this particular issue. But our opinion on this is not the point of the thread.

Zenimax need to see how many Sorc. players agree with each point and then make fixes appropriate to that, and the numbers they have unique sight of to produce a more competitive and balanced class.

Their current policy of deciding what to change and then doing it before knowing what the majority need is strange, and it seems to dovetail with past and present complaint threads for PvP and others such as for Stamina or Healing on these forums with number of OPs and respondents representing statistically irrelevant tiny, tiny fractions of the Sorc. player base.

This is bound to give the wrong impression on some or indeed all of these, and therefore lead to the wrong changes if they are used as a basis for that change.

Erock25

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

But right now - there is no explanation as to why change 'x' is planned over change 'y', or why only some proponents of change are getting what they want in the face of others who will be negatively impacted by it.

This is why change X is planned over change Y.

DK changes that affect stamina builds

Searing Strike

Unstable Flames (morph): This ability now scales off Stamina and Attack Power and costs Stamina. Damage is mitigated by your target’s melee defense statistics.

Fiery Breath

Burning Breath (morph): This ability will now scale off of stamina and weapon power, and is mitigated by your target’s melee defense statistics. This ability now applies the Major Fracture debuff to your target.

Inferno

Flames of Oblivion (morph): This ability now provides the same effect as Inferno, as well as providing the Major Savagery (that is weapon crit) buff while active.

Molten Weapons

This ability will no longer buff allies. Instead, activating Molten Weapons will increase your heavy attack damage by 40% for 7 seconds. The duration increases with each additional rank.

Igneous Weapons (morph): Using a heavy attack while this ability is active will increase its duration by one second.

Molten Armaments (morph): This ability now increases the extra damage against low health targets.

Slightly reduced the cost of Molten Weapons and its morphs.

Earthen Heart

Mountain’s Blessing: This passive now also grants all allies within 30 meters the buff Minor Brutality for 10 seconds at Rank I, or 20 seconds at Rank II.

NB changes that affect stamina builds

Assassins Blade

Killer’s Blade (morph): This is now a stamina-based ability. The heal from this ability will now be applied if your target dies within 2 seconds of the ability being used, regardless of who killed the target.

Teleport Strike

Ambush: This ability now uses stamina instead of magicka, and applies the Minor Berserk buff on the next attack.

Mark Target

This ability now grants the Major Breach and Major Fracture buffs.
Removed the penalty from this ability.
This ability can now be cast on any target.
Reduced the cost of this ability by approximately 50%, and reduced the duration to 20 seconds.
Piercing Mark (morph): The duration of this ability now scales with ability ranks up to a maximum of 30 seconds.
Reaper’s Mark (morph): This ability now grants the Major Berserk buff for 8 seconds after the target is killed.

Veiled Strike

Surprise Attack (morph): This morph is now a stamina-based ability, now applies the Major Fracture debuff, and will no longer reduce your target’s armor if they dodge the initial attack.

Drain Power

The damage caused by Drain Power no longer scales with the number of targets hit. Instead, you will receive a Major Brutality buff when damaging at least one target.
Power Extraction (morph): This ability now scales off weapon damage and stamina instead of magicka and spell damage. The damage has also been increased by 10%.

Templar changes that affect stamina builds

Puncturing Strikes

Biting Jabs (morph): This ability now scales off stamina and weapon power, and now also provides the Major Savagery buff.

Piercing Javelin

Binding Javelin (morph): This ability now scales off stamina and weapon power.

Backlash

Power of Light (morph): This ability now applies the Minor Fracture debuff to your target, and the damage caps are derived from your maximum stamina.

Aedric Spear

Burning Light: The damage from this passive is now derived from your highest stats (stamina or magicka based).

Aedric Spear

Balance Warrior: Increased the weapon damage from this passive to 3% at Rank I, and 6% at Rank II.

Sorc changes that affect stamina builds

Bound Armor

Bound Armaments (morph): This ability now costs Stamina instead of Magicka, gives you a bonus to stamina instead of magicka, and increases the damage done by heavy attacks.

Dark Exchange

Dark Deal (morph): This ability now converts magicka into health and stamina.

Glurin wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

[*] Hybridising useless Sorcerer magicka skills with stamina morphs

You know, I see this talk of changing a bunch of sorcerer morphs to have stamina on them scattered all over the forums and I have to ask, if you wanted to play a warrior, why did you choose to play a sorcerer?

I understand wanting to play as a battlemage. Being a mage that wears armor and can hit things with weapons and hit them with a bolt of lightning at the same time. That's the way I like to do things. But I think people might be forgetting the "mage" part of battlemage. Mage, as in magic. You specialize in throwing fireballs from your fingers by tapping into the cosmic energy flow or whatever and creating fire. Leave the grunting to shoot fire out your butt to the warriors who've had too much ale and decided to play with a torch.

If it's about game balance of hybrid builds, then we'd be better off with another solution IMO. One that doesn't involve sacrificing diversity by splitting the sorcerer class into only two possible versions.

Did you know that Sorcerer for the vast majority of the game so far was able to reach weapon dmg numbers that other classes could not? You honestly can sit there and say that even though ALL CLASSES started as magicka only, that Sorc is the only one that doesn't deserve some stamina morph options? You do realize that two more stam morphs and a little more stam synergy with a passive or two is all I personally expect?

It is selfish to push your own agenda when you know that their is a disparity between build options that are offered to each class.

CP5

Glurin wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

[*] Hybridising useless Sorcerer magicka skills with stamina morphs

You know, I see this talk of changing a bunch of sorcerer morphs to have stamina on them scattered all over the forums and I have to ask, if you wanted to play a warrior, why did you choose to play a sorcerer?

I understand wanting to play as a battlemage. Being a mage that wears armor and can hit things with weapons and hit them with a bolt of lightning at the same time. That's the way I like to do things. But I think people might be forgetting the "mage" part of battlemage. Mage, as in magic. You specialize in throwing fireballs from your fingers by tapping into the cosmic energy flow or whatever and creating fire. Leave the grunting to shoot fire out your butt to the warriors who've had too much ale and decided to play with a torch.

If it's about game balance of hybrid builds, then we'd be better off with another solution IMO. One that doesn't involve sacrificing diversity by splitting the sorcerer class into only two possible versions.

I hope people realize a few things in regards to both the Sorcerer as a class in the Elder Scrolls universe, and the philosophy of the game. The game is designed around each class being able to preform every role in their own unique way. As of right now every class except for sorcerers can do this to a valid degree, and sorcerers fall flat because of a few key things.

• Most abilities only scale off of magicka (abilities damage, which is fine, but also things like Daedric Summoning pets aside from the atronach which makes the whole skill tree less useful for non caster sorcs, or the change to Expert Mage which favors only magicka sorcerers while hitting any sorc that used Storm Calling skills for their utility)
• Incredibly expensive skills which without heavy build investment can't be used frequently enough even for only their utility
• A heavy focus on burst damage, which was buffed heavily in 1.6 despite the devs saying that wasn't their goal (20% bonus to crystal frags proc, buff of daedric curses damage both direct and aoe, again Expert Mage)
• Few tools to make anything but a pure caster viable, again going back to how skills are designed with high cost and little variety in several morphs
• Heavy dependence on non class skills, making all but a select few builds have maybe one or two class skills on it

As for my first point about sorcerers in the Elder Scrolls universe lets look at how the class is defined.
Arena Daggerfall Morrowind Oblivion Skyrim
*note for Daggerfall and Skyrim you will need to scroll down to the sorcerer class, and that Skyrim classes are only used by npcs

Common themes from the sorcerer class include, focusing on the magic specialization (out of magic, combat and stealth). They have a large pool of magicka (from intelligence) but low or no regeneration (lack of the willpower attribute or literally having no regen) while also having a rather high endurance in the later games. They often times, aside from Oblivion have a large skill in weapons, being able to use any (Arena, where weapon selection was limited) or retaining skill in one handed weapons (Daggerfall, Morrowind and Skyrim) or even marksman in Morrowind. They also have a skill for Heavy Armor and have also used Medium Armor (the first two games they were restricted to these, and even in Skyrim Sorcerers have skill in heavy armor).

So what image do the Sorcerer's have? A Heavy Armor wearing, one handed weapon specialist, with little to no inborn ability to generate magicka but the ability to absorb magicka to launch some of the most powerful spells. They are basically the Magic Specialization's version of a tank, sometimes literally eating the spells of their enemies to use that power againt them, with the durability from armor and endurance to get close and unleash their powerful spells. Nightblades for compassion have, ever since Arena, been mages who use illusions and other magic to aid in stealth, and have been the magic thieves. That theme holds consistent to ESO and medium armor works to demonstrate the class in the character creator. But just because the Sorcerer, as a class, is the only one ZOS chose to put in robes does not mean the class should be forced and restricted to that one playstyle. If anything they should have been in heavy armor and been equip with either a sword and board (since ESO doesn't have a one handed skill tree) or even a 2 hander (like the npcs who use their weapon to launch lightning).

Sorcerers aren't pure mages, they go beyond robes and casting to gain endurance and skill with martial weapons. Its not a question of if the class will be "the pure mage" that so many seem to believe they are, when in fact they haven't ever been that. All classes should be able to fit all roles, and there are more than enough skills available that if done properly that can be the case. I take issue with those who say the class should be their way and theirs alone, under the assumption that anything but their one vision will ruin the class forever, and hopefully we, as the sorcerer playerbase, can present our collective ideas in such a way that we stop this laughable infighting and outline for zenimax how the class could be improved, for all of us.

Jar_Ek

Please! Stopping the in-fighting would be great.

byrom101b16_ESO

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Please! Stopping the in-fighting would be great.

Yes it would, which is what an open and fair poll would seek to reduce or eliminate.

But people think they can use the thread to be adversarial, as if there are not enough of those already on the forums.

If NPC class builds (irrelevant to players), and classless single players games (not directly comparable to a class-based multiplayer) are going to be used as examples of 'what a Sorc. should be', then we will get no-where in our ESO MMO debate.

Let's just have the poll!

Erock25 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

But right now - there is no explanation as to why change 'x' is planned over change 'y', or why only some proponents of change are getting what they want in the face of others who will be negatively impacted by it.

This is why change X is planned over change Y.

DK changes that affect stamina builds

Searing Strike

Unstable Flames (morph): This ability now scales off Stamina and Attack Power and costs Stamina. Damage is mitigated by your target’s melee defense statistics.

Fiery Breath

Burning Breath (morph): This ability will now scale off of stamina and weapon power, and is mitigated by your target’s melee defense statistics. This ability now applies the Major Fracture debuff to your target.

Inferno

Flames of Oblivion (morph): This ability now provides the same effect as Inferno, as well as providing the Major Savagery (that is weapon crit) buff while active.

Molten Weapons

This ability will no longer buff allies. Instead, activating Molten Weapons will increase your heavy attack damage by 40% for 7 seconds. The duration increases with each additional rank.

Igneous Weapons (morph): Using a heavy attack while this ability is active will increase its duration by one second.

Molten Armaments (morph): This ability now increases the extra damage against low health targets.

Slightly reduced the cost of Molten Weapons and its morphs.

Earthen Heart

Mountain’s Blessing: This passive now also grants all allies within 30 meters the buff Minor Brutality for 10 seconds at Rank I, or 20 seconds at Rank II.

NB changes that affect stamina builds

Assassins Blade

Killer’s Blade (morph): This is now a stamina-based ability. The heal from this ability will now be applied if your target dies within 2 seconds of the ability being used, regardless of who killed the target.

Teleport Strike

Ambush: This ability now uses stamina instead of magicka, and applies the Minor Berserk buff on the next attack.

Mark Target

This ability now grants the Major Breach and Major Fracture buffs.
Removed the penalty from this ability.
This ability can now be cast on any target.
Reduced the cost of this ability by approximately 50%, and reduced the duration to 20 seconds.
Piercing Mark (morph): The duration of this ability now scales with ability ranks up to a maximum of 30 seconds.
Reaper’s Mark (morph): This ability now grants the Major Berserk buff for 8 seconds after the target is killed.

Veiled Strike

Surprise Attack (morph): This morph is now a stamina-based ability, now applies the Major Fracture debuff, and will no longer reduce your target’s armor if they dodge the initial attack.

Drain Power

The damage caused by Drain Power no longer scales with the number of targets hit. Instead, you will receive a Major Brutality buff when damaging at least one target.
Power Extraction (morph): This ability now scales off weapon damage and stamina instead of magicka and spell damage. The damage has also been increased by 10%.

Templar changes that affect stamina builds

Puncturing Strikes

Biting Jabs (morph): This ability now scales off stamina and weapon power, and now also provides the Major Savagery buff.

Piercing Javelin

Binding Javelin (morph): This ability now scales off stamina and weapon power.

Backlash

Power of Light (morph): This ability now applies the Minor Fracture debuff to your target, and the damage caps are derived from your maximum stamina.

Aedric Spear

Burning Light: The damage from this passive is now derived from your highest stats (stamina or magicka based).

Aedric Spear

Balance Warrior: Increased the weapon damage from this passive to 3% at Rank I, and 6% at Rank II.

Sorc changes that affect stamina builds

Bound Armor

Bound Armaments (morph): This ability now costs Stamina instead of Magicka, gives you a bonus to stamina instead of magicka, and increases the damage done by heavy attacks.

Dark Exchange

Dark Deal (morph): This ability now converts magicka into health and stamina.

Glurin wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

[*] Hybridising useless Sorcerer magicka skills with stamina morphs

You know, I see this talk of changing a bunch of sorcerer morphs to have stamina on them scattered all over the forums and I have to ask, if you wanted to play a warrior, why did you choose to play a sorcerer?

I understand wanting to play as a battlemage. Being a mage that wears armor and can hit things with weapons and hit them with a bolt of lightning at the same time. That's the way I like to do things. But I think people might be forgetting the "mage" part of battlemage. Mage, as in magic. You specialize in throwing fireballs from your fingers by tapping into the cosmic energy flow or whatever and creating fire. Leave the grunting to shoot fire out your butt to the warriors who've had too much ale and decided to play with a torch.

If it's about game balance of hybrid builds, then we'd be better off with another solution IMO. One that doesn't involve sacrificing diversity by splitting the sorcerer class into only two possible versions.

Did you know that Sorcerer for the vast majority of the game so far was able to reach weapon dmg numbers that other classes could not? You honestly can sit there and say that even though ALL CLASSES started as magicka only, that Sorc is the only one that doesn't deserve some stamina morph options? You do realize that two more stam morphs and a little more stam synergy with a passive or two is all I personally expect?

It is selfish to push your own agenda when you know that their is a disparity between build options that are offered to each class.

I asked quite politely for the counterpoint of other threads to be left at the door on this one. I have repeated that call on every post which has been bias on this thread.

I have made it clear that my personal 'class fix' opinion is as irrelevant to the purpose of the thread as everyone else's - excepting that we get as complete a list as possible.

I still don't see you commenting on whether a poll would be more valid than your opinion, or indeed just mine.

State your case on the various threads where it has a place, and I will too - this is not the place for it!

You'll find your preference of class change was listed up there right from the start of this thread along with the others in case you missed it.

So don't bother to claim there is bias in it, and keep your accusations of selfishness to yourself. You'll find none from me...

Now take your blinkers off and accept there are various other and/or competing demands for the class, for which a poll would be well placed to understand which fixes and/or changes are wanted by the majority.

Just say whether you want a poll or not, and why eh?

The truth is, if the poll I suggest came out in favour of preferences other than mine, I'd accept them lock stock and barrel. I wonder if you would if it came out against yours..?

Zsymon

Other classes need a whole lot more work than Sorcerers. DKs with their weak passives, Templars with their weak and often useless and buggy skills, and Nightblades with their buggy Dark Cloak. Magicka Sorcerers are doing fine, way too good actually, on every level now.

byrom101b16_ESO

Zsymon wrote: »

Other classes need a whole lot more work than Sorcerers. DKs with their weak passives, Templars with their weak and often useless and buggy skills, and Nightblades with their buggy Dark Cloak.

I agree that other classes should be polled in the same way.

A fair idea is a fair idea, regardless of class.

Erock25

@byrom101b16_ESO Your whole PS section in the post I quoted was you saying you don't understand why ZOS identified stamina/healing/tanking as a Sorc problem and not magicka. Maybe you should keep your own opinions out of this thread then if you do not want someone to respond to them. Your whole list on the OP is tainted by the use of of the word hybridization. There are stamina/weapon power builds and there are magicka/spell power builds and implying that adding stamina options to the Sorc class is hybridization is wrong. Also, a poll means nothing. There is no magic number out there that only x% of people voted for stamina option so it shouldn't happen. All classes can be magicka or stamina builds (FACT) and Sorc got screwed when it comes to stamina moprhs/passives. Your poll is irrelevant.

byrom101b16_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

@byrom101b16_ESO Your whole PS section in the post I quoted was you saying you don't understand why ZOS identified stamina/healing/tanking as a Sorc problem and not magicka. Maybe you should keep your own opinions out of this thread then if you do not want someone to respond to them. Your whole list on the OP is tainted by the use of of the word hybridization. There are stamina/weapon power builds and there are magicka/spell power builds and implying that adding stamina options to the Sorc class is hybridization is wrong. Also, a poll means nothing. There is no magic number out there that only x% of people voted for stamina option so it shouldn't happen. All classes can be magicka or stamina builds (FACT) and Sorc got screwed when it comes to stamina moprhs/passives. Your poll is irrelevant.

This is your answer..?

...you could have instead asked for a rewording of the list, or additions to it. You could have been constructive and thought about other points of view.

Only when I was asked, or it was relevant did I offer a little of my own opinion, and every time made clear that my preference was as irrelevant to this thread as the rest.

That's what the thread is about Erock - admitting your way isn't necessarily the 'one true way' for others, and discussing a better way to find out what most people want.

There are plenty of other points in that list apart from what is important to you - but the only way you feel like characterising the whole thing as 'a poll means nothing', is using your own, personal example of stamina.

Did you bother to read the rest of the list Erock, or did nothing matter to you but that..?

... in fact, nevermind. The idea of other people being given their say even if they don't frequent the forums is lost on you, clearly...

Erock25

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

@byrom101b16_ESO Your whole PS section in the post I quoted was you saying you don't understand why ZOS identified stamina/healing/tanking as a Sorc problem and not magicka. Maybe you should keep your own opinions out of this thread then if you do not want someone to respond to them. Your whole list on the OP is tainted by the use of of the word hybridization. There are stamina/weapon power builds and there are magicka/spell power builds and implying that adding stamina options to the Sorc class is hybridization is wrong. Also, a poll means nothing. There is no magic number out there that only x% of people voted for stamina option so it shouldn't happen. All classes can be magicka or stamina builds (FACT) and Sorc got screwed when it comes to stamina moprhs/passives. Your poll is irrelevant.

This is your answer..?

...you could have instead asked for a rewording of the list, or additions to it. You could have been constructive and thought about other points of view.

Only when I was asked, or it was relevant did I offer a little of my own opinion, and every time made clear that mine was as irrelevant and off-point as the rest.

That's what the thread is about Erock - admitting your way isn't necessarily the 'one true way' and discussing a better way to find out what most people want.

... nevermind - the idea of other people being given their say even if they don't frequent the forums is lost on you, clearly...

You don't even read what I type.