Why are some people so eager for over-monetization?

pppontus · April 2015

Genomic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I'm going to dig up the metaphor I used in another thread on this subject.

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Do you think that companies exist in a capitalist market to not earn money?

Because the desire to make money is an absolution for all your sins?

The problem with this argument is that it gets used to excuse any behavior so long as it improves the bottom line. It's a bit like saying, "well, sure that busload of nuns plowed through a day care center, but that's what buses do, they go places. What did you expect?"

A small amount of self control, maybe.

Maybe you can add to the analogy that no one got injured as there were no one in the day care center because no one wanted to play there due to people (not myself) not finding value for their money?

If you don't want to hear "we want to make money" as an excuse, then don't live in a capitalist society.

Genomic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I already expressly addressed that in the OP, and said that wasn't the issue I'm talking about.

I don't agree that you did. You can say "I'm not talking about the need for ZOS to make money" but if you complain that people are trying to find ways for them to make money - that's exactly what you are talking about. It's the same thing.

People have accepted that stuff is gonna cost money from now on, might as well try and get something worth it in there. Let's not pretend that we're gonna get appearance and name changes for free, that would be completely stupid of them, so if we want them we have to ask for them in the Crown Store. Unless we were born yesterday in which case we could ask for them to make it free, and make rainbows and unicorns drop from the sky too.

Again, missing the point. I quite clearly said that I'm aware that B2P is the current business model and that is the primary revenue stream now. It's about 1) Over monetization 2) The effect this will have on the game itself - this is not just a supposition, you can see plenty of real world MMO examples where cash shops altered the game for the worse and 3) That some people are almost begging for this to happen.

1. Is it up to you to decide what is over monetization? I don't think any company ever thought they were making too much money. Anything that will provide good revenue while not ruining the game to the point where too many valuable customers will leave, is going to end up there. Yes, if you're not spending money - you won't be as important of a customer to retain as those who do. When you go to your local bar, do you expect to be served as fast as the group who orders a lot of expensive stuff and leave great tips? Don't..

2. I agree, but it is irrelevant at this point. You, me or anyone in this thread will not change the outcome of this. It's like "consumer power".. yeah, sure, but there is no clear cut cause that you can rally people behind. I want name changes, I will never boycott the Crown Store. Never, I'll buy as much stuff as I feel like. And a lot of the people complaining will do the same as soon as something they want comes out. And if they don't, well .. look at 1 again. You don't buy, you are a net loss .. who's gonna care?

3. Yes, you have to consider that people might just want different things from you. And if they are willing to pay more than you are willing to pay, chances are they'll get it. I saw everyone cry about motifs yesterday, and I'm like.. well, I have them all. But if another one comes out and is ~equally "hard to get" as Dwemer, which took me ~10 hours of farming to get the full thing.. it's cheaper for me to buy it with money than to farm it, if I want it. $40 is less than 2 hours work. So for me, it makes sense. I get to spend more of my free time just playing rather than farming, while for someone who doesn't make much money - it makes more sense to farm it.

I don't mind either way, I'm here as long as it makes sense for me to do so i.e. as long as I feel I'm getting my moneys worth from the game. I think everyone should just stick to that, and this forum wouldn't be 50% complaint threads.

starkerealm wrote: »

To take your, "well, there in this to make money" to it's logical extreme would be, "it's cool kill people and take their stuff, because, hey, it makes money."

You make it sound like that doesn't happen. The difference is your example is against the law in most countries, this.. isn't.

Genomic · April 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I'm going to dig up the metaphor I used in another thread on this subject.

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Do you think that companies exist in a capitalist market to not earn money?

Because the desire to make money is an absolution for all your sins?

The problem with this argument is that it gets used to excuse any behavior so long as it improves the bottom line. It's a bit like saying, "well, sure that busload of nuns plowed through a day care center, but that's what buses do, they go places. What did you expect?"

A small amount of self control, maybe.

Maybe you can add to the analogy that no one got injured as there were no one in the day care center because no one wanted to play there due to people (not myself) not finding value for their money?

If you don't want to hear "we want to make money" as an excuse, then don't live in a capitalist society.

Genomic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I already expressly addressed that in the OP, and said that wasn't the issue I'm talking about.

I don't agree that you did. You can say "I'm not talking about the need for ZOS to make money" but if you complain that people are trying to find ways for them to make money - that's exactly what you are talking about. It's the same thing.

People have accepted that stuff is gonna cost money from now on, might as well try and get something worth it in there. Let's not pretend that we're gonna get appearance and name changes for free, that would be completely stupid of them, so if we want them we have to ask for them in the Crown Store. Unless we were born yesterday in which case we could ask for them to make it free, and make rainbows and unicorns drop from the sky too.

Again, missing the point. I quite clearly said that I'm aware that B2P is the current business model and that is the primary revenue stream now. It's about 1) Over monetization 2) The effect this will have on the game itself - this is not just a supposition, you can see plenty of real world MMO examples where cash shops altered the game for the worse and 3) That some people are almost begging for this to happen.

1. Is it up to you to decide what is over monetization? I don't think any company ever thought they were making too much money. Anything that will provide good revenue while not ruining the game to the point where too many valuable customers will leave, is going to end up there. Yes, if you're not spending money - you won't be as important of a customer to retain as those who do. When you go to your local bar, do you expect to be served as fast as the group who orders a lot of expensive stuff and leave great tips? Don't..

2. I agree, but it is irrelevant at this point. You, me or anyone in this thread will not change the outcome of this. It's like "consumer power".. yeah, sure, but there is no clear cut cause that you can rally people behind. I want name changes, I will never boycott the Crown Store. Never, I'll buy as much stuff as I feel like. And a lot of the people complaining will do the same as soon as something they want comes out. And if they don't, well .. look at 1 again. You don't buy, you are a net loss .. who's gonna care?

3. Yes, you have to consider that people might just want different things from you. And if they are willing to pay more than you are willing to pay, chances are they'll get it. I saw everyone cry about motifs yesterday, and I'm like.. well, I have them all. But if another one comes out and is ~equally "hard to get" as Dwemer, which took me ~10 hours of farming to get the full thing.. it's cheaper for me to buy it with money than to farm it, if I want it. $40 is less than 2 hours work. So for me, it makes sense. I get to spend more of my free time just playing rather than farming, while for someone who doesn't make much money - it makes more sense to farm it.

I don't mind either way, I'm here as long as it makes sense for me to do so i.e. as long as I feel I'm getting my moneys worth from the game. I think everyone should just stick to that, and this forum wouldn't be 50% complaint threads.

starkerealm wrote: »

To take your, "well, there in this to make money" to it's logical extreme would be, "it's cool kill people and take their stuff, because, hey, it makes money."

You make it sound like that doesn't happen. The difference is your example is against the law in most countries, this.. isn't.

Guy, if you're just going to repeatedly miss the point, then you should just bow out of the discussion. I don't want to have to explain again what I said, it's all in the OP and no-one else seems to have had a problem understanding my point, only you.

jcasini222ub17_ESO · April 2015

or someone who makes the same amount of money that you do will just pay in game gold for it when they have enough. cause you know its pixels. I literally have a difficult time rationalizing crown store purchases, any real dollar purchase that will only be digital and will eventually be closed down and taken away from me (outside of my control). Whoever stumbled upon this form of monetization in mmo's is a mad genius.

starkerealm · April 2015

pppontus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

To take your, "well, there in this to make money" to it's logical extreme would be, "it's cool kill people and take their stuff, because, hey, it makes money."

You make it sound like that doesn't happen. The difference is your example is against the law in most countries, this.. isn't.

Pretty sure, offering to sell one thing, and then actually delivering something different is also against the law in most countries.

daemonios · April 2015

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

or someone who makes the same amount of money that you do will just pay in game gold for it when they have enough. cause you know its pixels. I literally have a difficult time rationalizing crown store purchases, any real dollar purchase that will only be digital and will eventually be closed down and taken away from me (outside of my control). Whoever stumbled upon this form of monetization in mmo's is a mad genius.

That's my gripe with micro-transactions in games. People rationalize them as paying for entertainment (like you pay to go to the movies), but on another level they see them as purchasing actual items (OMG exclusive time-limited fluff!). In the worst cases, companies add an element of gambling to it to prey on people with little self-restraint or much cash.

Unfortunately we're not the ones calling the shots here... As I said, what we can do is vote with our wallets.

pppontus · April 2015

Genomic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I'm going to dig up the metaphor I used in another thread on this subject.

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Do you think that companies exist in a capitalist market to not earn money?

Because the desire to make money is an absolution for all your sins?

The problem with this argument is that it gets used to excuse any behavior so long as it improves the bottom line. It's a bit like saying, "well, sure that busload of nuns plowed through a day care center, but that's what buses do, they go places. What did you expect?"

A small amount of self control, maybe.

Maybe you can add to the analogy that no one got injured as there were no one in the day care center because no one wanted to play there due to people (not myself) not finding value for their money?

If you don't want to hear "we want to make money" as an excuse, then don't live in a capitalist society.

Genomic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I already expressly addressed that in the OP, and said that wasn't the issue I'm talking about.

I don't agree that you did. You can say "I'm not talking about the need for ZOS to make money" but if you complain that people are trying to find ways for them to make money - that's exactly what you are talking about. It's the same thing.

People have accepted that stuff is gonna cost money from now on, might as well try and get something worth it in there. Let's not pretend that we're gonna get appearance and name changes for free, that would be completely stupid of them, so if we want them we have to ask for them in the Crown Store. Unless we were born yesterday in which case we could ask for them to make it free, and make rainbows and unicorns drop from the sky too.

Again, missing the point. I quite clearly said that I'm aware that B2P is the current business model and that is the primary revenue stream now. It's about 1) Over monetization 2) The effect this will have on the game itself - this is not just a supposition, you can see plenty of real world MMO examples where cash shops altered the game for the worse and 3) That some people are almost begging for this to happen.

1. Is it up to you to decide what is over monetization? I don't think any company ever thought they were making too much money. Anything that will provide good revenue while not ruining the game to the point where too many valuable customers will leave, is going to end up there. Yes, if you're not spending money - you won't be as important of a customer to retain as those who do. When you go to your local bar, do you expect to be served as fast as the group who orders a lot of expensive stuff and leave great tips? Don't..

2. I agree, but it is irrelevant at this point. You, me or anyone in this thread will not change the outcome of this. It's like "consumer power".. yeah, sure, but there is no clear cut cause that you can rally people behind. I want name changes, I will never boycott the Crown Store. Never, I'll buy as much stuff as I feel like. And a lot of the people complaining will do the same as soon as something they want comes out. And if they don't, well .. look at 1 again. You don't buy, you are a net loss .. who's gonna care?

3. Yes, you have to consider that people might just want different things from you. And if they are willing to pay more than you are willing to pay, chances are they'll get it. I saw everyone cry about motifs yesterday, and I'm like.. well, I have them all. But if another one comes out and is ~equally "hard to get" as Dwemer, which took me ~10 hours of farming to get the full thing.. it's cheaper for me to buy it with money than to farm it, if I want it. $40 is less than 2 hours work. So for me, it makes sense. I get to spend more of my free time just playing rather than farming, while for someone who doesn't make much money - it makes more sense to farm it.

I don't mind either way, I'm here as long as it makes sense for me to do so i.e. as long as I feel I'm getting my moneys worth from the game. I think everyone should just stick to that, and this forum wouldn't be 50% complaint threads.

starkerealm wrote: »

To take your, "well, there in this to make money" to it's logical extreme would be, "it's cool kill people and take their stuff, because, hey, it makes money."

You make it sound like that doesn't happen. The difference is your example is against the law in most countries, this.. isn't.

Guy, if you're just going to repeatedly miss the point, then you should just bow out of the discussion. I don't want to have to explain again what I said, it's all in the OP and no-one else seems to have had a problem understanding my point, only you.

I understand it's super hard to accept that not everyone has the same opinion as you do, but you should start to understand that on a discussion forum you can't just completely exclude the biggest part of an issue and expect no one to explain it.

I clearly see you saying that you understand ZOS wants to make money and players want to buy ***, and wonder why they want to buy ***.. and then I explain why they want to buy *** and give you background on why companies love people who buy ***.. seriously. I think you would appreciate it more if you started an anti crown store fanclub and had your discussions in there instead.

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

or someone who makes the same amount of money that you do will just pay in game gold for it when they have enough. cause you know its pixels. I literally have a difficult time rationalizing crown store purchases, any real dollar purchase that will only be digital and will eventually be closed down and taken away from me (outside of my control). Whoever stumbled upon this form of monetization in mmo's is a mad genius.

It's simple, really. I ask myself one question: would this enhance my gaming experience $40 worth?

If no: don't buy. If yes: buy.

You have to consider that for some of us, the only issue we have is time. Money isn't an issue, I have more than I can spend on what limited free time I have.. so whatever makes me have fun in my free time, it's worth it.

And I'm sorry if that offends people, but I honestly don't give a crap. And before anyone asks .. no, I won't support p2w, because that doesn't enhance my gaming experience.

This whole thread can be summed up in one sentence:

People have different priorities.

That's your answer OP, that's why people are asking for this and that in the Crown Store. Because they want that, and they don't care that you don't want it.

starkerealm · April 2015

daemonios wrote: »

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

or someone who makes the same amount of money that you do will just pay in game gold for it when they have enough. cause you know its pixels. I literally have a difficult time rationalizing crown store purchases, any real dollar purchase that will only be digital and will eventually be closed down and taken away from me (outside of my control). Whoever stumbled upon this form of monetization in mmo's is a mad genius.

That's my gripe with micro-transactions in games. People rationalize them as paying for entertainment (like you pay to go to the movies), but on another level they see them as purchasing actual items (OMG exclusive time-limited fluff!). In the worst cases, companies add an element of gambling to it to prey on people with little self-restraint or much cash.

Unfortunately we're not the ones calling the shots here... As I said, what we can do is vote with our wallets.

Ironically... or not, the term "Whale" originates from casino terminology... if a complete stranger on these boards is to be trusted.

Tandor · April 2015

Alphashado wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

AH93 wrote: »

Sadly most online games, (even some single player games now!), have gone down a path of monetising every little thing they can, because why bother actually playing the game and putting in the effort to unlock items, when you can stand in town spending money in the in-game store?

Sense of achievement slowly trickling away.

There's no doubt that this sort of change appeals to some players, and that's fair enough - each to his or her own. However, those to whom it doesn't appeal can simply choose to ignore those items in the Crown Store and get the same sense of achievement from earning the items in-game as they did before, without needing to worry over how other players got the items.

That is much easier said than done. One of the main reasons I was attracted to ESO in the first place was because it was a subscription model and because of quotes like the one in the OP from Matt. I want a good, well designed MMO that does NOT revolve around a cash store.

Cash shop this, cash shop that. It's like being at a care dealership with a salesman approaching me every 2 minutes or having a telemarketer call me 10 times a day.

We don't want it and it's impossible to ignore if trying to avoid it was one of the main reasons we came here in the first place.

What I find hilariously ironic is how people whine about being forced to dish out $15 per month on a sub, yet they will spend ungodly amounts of money in the cash store on things that are free in a sub model with a little effort.

I don't really understand why avoiding this change is "easier said than done". I continue to pay a sub, barely look at the crown store and have only bought a costume to test the system really, I doubt I'll go back to it until there's some content on offer. Meanwhile I continue to play the game exactly the same way I played it before, and on the same terms. The threads on the forum will die down as the novelty and instant reaction wear off, but can be read or ignored as you like.

It's exactly the same game today that it was a month or two ago as far as I'm concerned. Oh sure, people with a "glass half empty" approach to life will say "oh but they might sell this, they might sell that..." but if and when that becomes an issue then don't buy those items, it really is as easy as that. People read too much into these cash shops, they exist primarily as an alternative source of revenue from those who don't want to subscribe, and can be largely ignored by those who still prefer to subscribe (but who will benefit from the extra viability rendered to the game by that alternative source of revenue and the additional players drawn to the game by it).

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · April 2015

I agree with you on this the vision of the game has changed we have had no new zones etc since craglorn but the big problem is people wanting a quick fix way to play a game that is meant to take time, these people who say i don't want to spend 6 months leveling up, i want the same as a subbed player for nothing, so they got what they wanted a f2p game basicly, but what they did not count on is zos still have to make money and now they complain things are to dear in the crown store what did they really expect

pppontus · April 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

To take your, "well, there in this to make money" to it's logical extreme would be, "it's cool kill people and take their stuff, because, hey, it makes money."

You make it sound like that doesn't happen. The difference is your example is against the law in most countries, this.. isn't.

Pretty sure, offering to sell one thing, and then actually delivering something different is also against the law in most countries.

You should have read the excessively long contract that you (effectively) signed when you bought the game.

Look, I think it's as ridiculous as you do, but really.. how could you not have expected this to happen? Microtransactions is sadly the future, just look at mobile games lol.

starkerealm · April 2015

Tandor wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

AH93 wrote: »

Sadly most online games, (even some single player games now!), have gone down a path of monetising every little thing they can, because why bother actually playing the game and putting in the effort to unlock items, when you can stand in town spending money in the in-game store?

Sense of achievement slowly trickling away.

There's no doubt that this sort of change appeals to some players, and that's fair enough - each to his or her own. However, those to whom it doesn't appeal can simply choose to ignore those items in the Crown Store and get the same sense of achievement from earning the items in-game as they did before, without needing to worry over how other players got the items.

That is much easier said than done. One of the main reasons I was attracted to ESO in the first place was because it was a subscription model and because of quotes like the one in the OP from Matt. I want a good, well designed MMO that does NOT revolve around a cash store.

Cash shop this, cash shop that. It's like being at a care dealership with a salesman approaching me every 2 minutes or having a telemarketer call me 10 times a day.

We don't want it and it's impossible to ignore if trying to avoid it was one of the main reasons we came here in the first place.

What I find hilariously ironic is how people whine about being forced to dish out $15 per month on a sub, yet they will spend ungodly amounts of money in the cash store on things that are free in a sub model with a little effort.

I don't really understand why avoiding this change is "easier said than done". I continue to pay a sub, barely look at the crown store and have only bought a costume to test the system really, I doubt I'll go back to it until there's some content on offer. Meanwhile I continue to play the game exactly the same way I played it before, and on the same terms. The threads on the forum will die down as the novelty and instant reaction wear off, but can be read or ignored as you like.

It's exactly the same game today that it was a month or two ago as far as I'm concerned. Oh sure, people with a "glass half empty" approach to life will say "oh but they might sell this, they might sell that..." but if and when that becomes an issue then don't buy those items, it really is as easy as that. People read too much into these cash shops, they exist primarily as an alternative source of revenue from those who don't want to subscribe, and can be largely ignored by those who still prefer to subscribe (but who will benefit from the extra viability rendered to the game by that alternative source of revenue and the additional players drawn to the game by it).

The short, and somewhat reductive, explanation is that cash shops incentivize bad behavior on the part of developers. That may not be by the developer's choice. But, we actually saw an example of that. The drop rate for motifs lowered with 1.6. Now, ZOS insisted it hadn't been changed, but what did change was more stuff got inserted into the drop tables, meaning getting a motif is now less likely than before 1.6.

Okay. Fine.

That's normal game balancing.

But, now motifs go up in the shop. And I have to wonder: did they reduce the drop rate of motifs expecting this? I don't think they would, but it's possible.

We've got another thread saying, "hey, wait, gold upgrade mats and kutas are a 'convenience' item. When are those going in the store?" And I remember that the hireling rates were lowered with 1.6. So... was that in preparation for those going in the store too?

And, then I have to ask, is this really the kind of experience I want to be having from a game? Do I really want to wait for things to get out of hand, or just walk away now, before I get to watch ESO get turned into another F2P microtransaction-festival?

It's easy to say, "yeah, it doesn't affect me." Until you see when and where it does. Then ignoring the change becomes a lot harder.

jcasini222ub17_ESO · April 2015

your right people do have different priorities. currently most of my paycheck goes to savings/college loan debt (should be done by 33 so in 6 years really pumped about that) but I could buy the whole crown store if I wanted to today, money isnt an issue just for you.

However, Im not a spender really more of a saver so maybe that explains our different approachs and mindsets.

I dont get jacked up over pixels, new (real) hiking boots maybe but pixels? we talkin bout pixels? not real book, not a real horse, but pixels.(hopefully a few of your realize were i'm borrowing this from)

Fully understand different priorties still doesnt mean i cant be baffled by behavior.

Danikat · April 2015

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic but I assumed a lot of the "I want to buy a VR14 character", "it would be convenient to be able to buy end-game PvP sets" type posts were sarcastic and the people saying it wouldn't actually want it at all, they're just accusing other people of pushing for the first steps down that road.

Although this is exactly why it can be a bad idea to be sarcastic on the internet (or why the sarcasm mark needs to become accepted punctuation). There's always a risk someone will take you seriously. In this case there's even more risk if that person is from ZOS.

In other cases I suspect it's people who just want that item/service and assume they're much more likely to get it if they express a willingness to pay for it. Things like name changes and barbershops are standard fare in other games cash shops and after a year of asking and not getting it in ESO maybe it seems more likely this way.

Razzak · April 2015

Tandor wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

AH93 wrote: »

Sadly most online games, (even some single player games now!), have gone down a path of monetising every little thing they can, because why bother actually playing the game and putting in the effort to unlock items, when you can stand in town spending money in the in-game store?

Sense of achievement slowly trickling away.

There's no doubt that this sort of change appeals to some players, and that's fair enough - each to his or her own. However, those to whom it doesn't appeal can simply choose to ignore those items in the Crown Store and get the same sense of achievement from earning the items in-game as they did before, without needing to worry over how other players got the items.

That is much easier said than done. One of the main reasons I was attracted to ESO in the first place was because it was a subscription model and because of quotes like the one in the OP from Matt. I want a good, well designed MMO that does NOT revolve around a cash store.

Cash shop this, cash shop that. It's like being at a care dealership with a salesman approaching me every 2 minutes or having a telemarketer call me 10 times a day.

We don't want it and it's impossible to ignore if trying to avoid it was one of the main reasons we came here in the first place.

What I find hilariously ironic is how people whine about being forced to dish out $15 per month on a sub, yet they will spend ungodly amounts of money in the cash store on things that are free in a sub model with a little effort.

I don't really understand why avoiding this change is "easier said than done". I continue to pay a sub, barely look at the crown store and have only bought a costume to test the system really, I doubt I'll go back to it until there's some content on offer. Meanwhile I continue to play the game exactly the same way I played it before, and on the same terms. The threads on the forum will die down as the novelty and instant reaction wear off, but can be read or ignored as you like.

It's exactly the same game today that it was a month or two ago as far as I'm concerned. Oh sure, people with a "glass half empty" approach to life will say "oh but they might sell this, they might sell that..." but if and when that becomes an issue then don't buy those items, it really is as easy as that. People read too much into these cash shops, they exist primarily as an alternative source of revenue from those who don't want to subscribe, and can be largely ignored by those who still prefer to subscribe (but who will benefit from the extra viability rendered to the game by that alternative source of revenue and the additional players drawn to the game by it).

True, their primary reason for existence is an alternative source of income. But what I think OP wanted to impress with his post and what many others think, is that this kind of practice has an almost certain effect on the game outside of it's income source. It has an effect of lowering the quality of the game in general. Less content releases, less bug fixes, less customer support, less... pretty much less in almost every part of the game, except cash shop items.
If they would employ new devs for cash shop items design and retain the same level and momentum of general game development as there was right after launch, I don't think many would mind having cash shop. But they didn't. A part, and it could be a large part, of development that was supposed, or believed to be, responsible for new content has been steered towards cash shop and it's items. No new content for months is more than clear indication of that.
You could even say it's already evident in latest patch notes.

starkerealm · April 2015

pppontus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

To take your, "well, there in this to make money" to it's logical extreme would be, "it's cool kill people and take their stuff, because, hey, it makes money."

You make it sound like that doesn't happen. The difference is your example is against the law in most countries, this.. isn't.

Pretty sure, offering to sell one thing, and then actually delivering something different is also against the law in most countries.

You should have read the excessively long contract that you (effectively) signed when you bought the game.

Look, I think it's as ridiculous as you do, but really.. how could you not have expected this to happen? Microtransactions is sadly the future, just look at mobile games lol.

I'm fully aware of how software licensing works. It's why I said calling it bait and switch above is overly dramatic. That doesn't mean it isn't a perfect description of the behavior that's at play here.

pppontus · April 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

AH93 wrote: »

Sadly most online games, (even some single player games now!), have gone down a path of monetising every little thing they can, because why bother actually playing the game and putting in the effort to unlock items, when you can stand in town spending money in the in-game store?

Sense of achievement slowly trickling away.

There's no doubt that this sort of change appeals to some players, and that's fair enough - each to his or her own. However, those to whom it doesn't appeal can simply choose to ignore those items in the Crown Store and get the same sense of achievement from earning the items in-game as they did before, without needing to worry over how other players got the items.

That is much easier said than done. One of the main reasons I was attracted to ESO in the first place was because it was a subscription model and because of quotes like the one in the OP from Matt. I want a good, well designed MMO that does NOT revolve around a cash store.

Cash shop this, cash shop that. It's like being at a care dealership with a salesman approaching me every 2 minutes or having a telemarketer call me 10 times a day.

We don't want it and it's impossible to ignore if trying to avoid it was one of the main reasons we came here in the first place.

What I find hilariously ironic is how people whine about being forced to dish out $15 per month on a sub, yet they will spend ungodly amounts of money in the cash store on things that are free in a sub model with a little effort.

I don't really understand why avoiding this change is "easier said than done". I continue to pay a sub, barely look at the crown store and have only bought a costume to test the system really, I doubt I'll go back to it until there's some content on offer. Meanwhile I continue to play the game exactly the same way I played it before, and on the same terms. The threads on the forum will die down as the novelty and instant reaction wear off, but can be read or ignored as you like.

It's exactly the same game today that it was a month or two ago as far as I'm concerned. Oh sure, people with a "glass half empty" approach to life will say "oh but they might sell this, they might sell that..." but if and when that becomes an issue then don't buy those items, it really is as easy as that. People read too much into these cash shops, they exist primarily as an alternative source of revenue from those who don't want to subscribe, and can be largely ignored by those who still prefer to subscribe (but who will benefit from the extra viability rendered to the game by that alternative source of revenue and the additional players drawn to the game by it).

The short, and somewhat reductive, explanation is that cash shops incentivize bad behavior on the part of developers. That may not be by the developer's choice. But, we actually saw an example of that. The drop rate for motifs lowered with 1.6. Now, ZOS insisted it hadn't been changed, but what did change was more stuff got inserted into the drop tables, meaning getting a motif is now less likely than before 1.6.

Okay. Fine.

That's normal game balancing.

But, now motifs go up in the shop. And I have to wonder: did they reduce the drop rate of motifs expecting this? I don't think they would, but it's possible.

We've got another thread saying, "hey, wait, gold upgrade mats and kutas are a 'convenience' item. When are those going in the store?" And I remember that the hireling rates were lowered with 1.6. So... was that in preparation for those going in the store too?

And, then I have to ask, is this really the kind of experience I want to be having from a game? Do I really want to wait for things to get out of hand, or just walk away now, before I get to watch ESO get turned into another F2P microtransaction-festival?

It's easy to say, "yeah, it doesn't affect me." Until you see when and where it does. Then ignoring the change becomes a lot harder.

I agree, it's equally naive not to expect certain things to be changed to favour and drive traffic to the cash shop. That's going to or has already happened. Champion System for XP pots, motifs for crown store motifs, hirelings for "special crafting packages" maybe.. who knows?

Point is: we aren't going to stop that from happening unless people actually don't buy it. And we will never be able to convince people not to buy it. Everyone is going to make their own decision, and it will either work for ZOS or not, and it will either be OK with "us" or not. Debating it as a whole is futile, it's not going to change anything.

starkerealm · April 2015

pppontus wrote: »

I agree, it's equally naive not to expect certain things to be changed to favour and drive traffic to the cash shop. That's going to or has already happened. Champion System for XP pots, motifs for crown store motifs, hirelings for "special crafting packages" maybe.. who knows?

Point is: we aren't going to stop that from happening unless people actually don't buy it. And we will never be able to convince people not to buy it. Everyone is going to make their own decision, and it will either work for ZOS or not, and it will either be OK with "us" or not. Debating it as a whole is futile, it's not going to change anything.

What was the statistic? Whales account for .2% of a game's population and 60% of its income. Yeah. Shank depressing when you think about it. $:\$

I can take the naive blow to the chin. This isn't the first time I've been through this with an MMO. I don't know if that makes it sting more or less, though. And, as before, it doesn't help that it's a franchise I honestly enjoy.

Audigy · April 2015

As long the stuff in the shop is also available for free in game, they can put in whatever they want. The day when additional, unavailable Char or Bank slots come, locker boxes with items or furniture for our house, then its time to revolt.

daemonios · April 2015

pppontus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

AH93 wrote: »

Sadly most online games, (even some single player games now!), have gone down a path of monetising every little thing they can, because why bother actually playing the game and putting in the effort to unlock items, when you can stand in town spending money in the in-game store?

Sense of achievement slowly trickling away.

There's no doubt that this sort of change appeals to some players, and that's fair enough - each to his or her own. However, those to whom it doesn't appeal can simply choose to ignore those items in the Crown Store and get the same sense of achievement from earning the items in-game as they did before, without needing to worry over how other players got the items.

That is much easier said than done. One of the main reasons I was attracted to ESO in the first place was because it was a subscription model and because of quotes like the one in the OP from Matt. I want a good, well designed MMO that does NOT revolve around a cash store.

Cash shop this, cash shop that. It's like being at a care dealership with a salesman approaching me every 2 minutes or having a telemarketer call me 10 times a day.

We don't want it and it's impossible to ignore if trying to avoid it was one of the main reasons we came here in the first place.

What I find hilariously ironic is how people whine about being forced to dish out $15 per month on a sub, yet they will spend ungodly amounts of money in the cash store on things that are free in a sub model with a little effort.

I don't really understand why avoiding this change is "easier said than done". I continue to pay a sub, barely look at the crown store and have only bought a costume to test the system really, I doubt I'll go back to it until there's some content on offer. Meanwhile I continue to play the game exactly the same way I played it before, and on the same terms. The threads on the forum will die down as the novelty and instant reaction wear off, but can be read or ignored as you like.

It's exactly the same game today that it was a month or two ago as far as I'm concerned. Oh sure, people with a "glass half empty" approach to life will say "oh but they might sell this, they might sell that..." but if and when that becomes an issue then don't buy those items, it really is as easy as that. People read too much into these cash shops, they exist primarily as an alternative source of revenue from those who don't want to subscribe, and can be largely ignored by those who still prefer to subscribe (but who will benefit from the extra viability rendered to the game by that alternative source of revenue and the additional players drawn to the game by it).

The short, and somewhat reductive, explanation is that cash shops incentivize bad behavior on the part of developers. That may not be by the developer's choice. But, we actually saw an example of that. The drop rate for motifs lowered with 1.6. Now, ZOS insisted it hadn't been changed, but what did change was more stuff got inserted into the drop tables, meaning getting a motif is now less likely than before 1.6.

Okay. Fine.

That's normal game balancing.

But, now motifs go up in the shop. And I have to wonder: did they reduce the drop rate of motifs expecting this? I don't think they would, but it's possible.

We've got another thread saying, "hey, wait, gold upgrade mats and kutas are a 'convenience' item. When are those going in the store?" And I remember that the hireling rates were lowered with 1.6. So... was that in preparation for those going in the store too?

And, then I have to ask, is this really the kind of experience I want to be having from a game? Do I really want to wait for things to get out of hand, or just walk away now, before I get to watch ESO get turned into another F2P microtransaction-festival?

It's easy to say, "yeah, it doesn't affect me." Until you see when and where it does. Then ignoring the change becomes a lot harder.

I agree, it's equally naive not to expect certain things to be changed to favour and drive traffic to the cash shop. That's going to or has already happened. Champion System for XP pots, motifs for crown store motifs, hirelings for "special crafting packages" maybe.. who knows?

Point is: we aren't going to stop that from happening unless people actually don't buy it. And we will never be able to convince people not to buy it. Everyone is going to make their own decision, and it will either work for ZOS or not, and it will either be OK with "us" or not. Debating it as a whole is futile, it's not going to change anything.

I think you put it beatifully when you said it either works for us or it doesn't. But I disagree with your last sentence, in that I don't think it's futile to discuss these issues. Who knows, we might convince another player not to validate wrong (in our opinion) choices by ZOS.

Psychobunni · April 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Ironically... or not, the term "Whale" originates from casino terminology... if a complete stranger on these boards is to be trusted.

There is a "mmo" browser game company whose CEO's speech on "$100,000 Whales - An Introduction to Chinese Browser Game Design" at a summit type thing was leaked online, in which he discussing creating games for the purpose of catching said whales.

Which is the ultimate fear of anyone that actually cares about the game they play. If you love your game you want development of the game itself, not just "how can we make money of these whales" development. When players are voicing their opinion(s) here, it is born of that fear and having seen it happen over and over, not just in the foreign made for money games, but in big name titles that set out on a respectable path.

BBSooner · April 2015

I think people are still looking for the line ZOS will draw - whether it be drawn at gear or not at all. They post threads on the store either 1.) Providing a list for things they'd like (ex. Race change), 2.) Speculating on if ZOS will eventually provide something (ex. Crafting mats), or 3.) Condemning the addition (ex. XP potion). The store is so new and, frankly, fairly empty that it's a valid (though often repeated) discussion on "if X will be in the store". That is the volume of threads we're seeing. But while there are some things I agree/disagree with, the big reason the forums are so consumed with the store is because it's new - and ESO players are clamoring for something ... anything ... new. But that's another discussion in and of itself.

As for posting that people would pay large sums of cash for an item, I just haven't seen those (or at least seen serious claims).

eliisra · April 2015

I dont think anyone wants crown store updates over content or quality.

Look closer at it, what are people asking for really? It's about the same old stuff requested during sub-based period.

Players want: alliance change, race change, gender change, ability to change appearance, cloaks, slutfits&*** for female toons, because boys. Pretty dresses for female toons, because girls.

People always wanted this stuff. Some players would do literally anything for a race change, for example. They begged for it on a weekly bases before the game went b2p. Now they feel they have a better chance if they include their wallet in argument, so they naturally mention the Crown Store.

Saltypretzels · April 2015

As soon as they made the B2P announcement, I said to myself, "Self, you better play this game as much as possible over the next year because by year 2-3 the game will have devolved so much into p2w that it won't have any integrity left".

So far myself has been right.

pppontus · April 2015

daemonios wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

AH93 wrote: »

Sadly most online games, (even some single player games now!), have gone down a path of monetising every little thing they can, because why bother actually playing the game and putting in the effort to unlock items, when you can stand in town spending money in the in-game store?

Sense of achievement slowly trickling away.

There's no doubt that this sort of change appeals to some players, and that's fair enough - each to his or her own. However, those to whom it doesn't appeal can simply choose to ignore those items in the Crown Store and get the same sense of achievement from earning the items in-game as they did before, without needing to worry over how other players got the items.

That is much easier said than done. One of the main reasons I was attracted to ESO in the first place was because it was a subscription model and because of quotes like the one in the OP from Matt. I want a good, well designed MMO that does NOT revolve around a cash store.

Cash shop this, cash shop that. It's like being at a care dealership with a salesman approaching me every 2 minutes or having a telemarketer call me 10 times a day.

We don't want it and it's impossible to ignore if trying to avoid it was one of the main reasons we came here in the first place.

What I find hilariously ironic is how people whine about being forced to dish out $15 per month on a sub, yet they will spend ungodly amounts of money in the cash store on things that are free in a sub model with a little effort.

I don't really understand why avoiding this change is "easier said than done". I continue to pay a sub, barely look at the crown store and have only bought a costume to test the system really, I doubt I'll go back to it until there's some content on offer. Meanwhile I continue to play the game exactly the same way I played it before, and on the same terms. The threads on the forum will die down as the novelty and instant reaction wear off, but can be read or ignored as you like.

It's exactly the same game today that it was a month or two ago as far as I'm concerned. Oh sure, people with a "glass half empty" approach to life will say "oh but they might sell this, they might sell that..." but if and when that becomes an issue then don't buy those items, it really is as easy as that. People read too much into these cash shops, they exist primarily as an alternative source of revenue from those who don't want to subscribe, and can be largely ignored by those who still prefer to subscribe (but who will benefit from the extra viability rendered to the game by that alternative source of revenue and the additional players drawn to the game by it).

The short, and somewhat reductive, explanation is that cash shops incentivize bad behavior on the part of developers. That may not be by the developer's choice. But, we actually saw an example of that. The drop rate for motifs lowered with 1.6. Now, ZOS insisted it hadn't been changed, but what did change was more stuff got inserted into the drop tables, meaning getting a motif is now less likely than before 1.6.

Okay. Fine.

That's normal game balancing.

But, now motifs go up in the shop. And I have to wonder: did they reduce the drop rate of motifs expecting this? I don't think they would, but it's possible.

We've got another thread saying, "hey, wait, gold upgrade mats and kutas are a 'convenience' item. When are those going in the store?" And I remember that the hireling rates were lowered with 1.6. So... was that in preparation for those going in the store too?

And, then I have to ask, is this really the kind of experience I want to be having from a game? Do I really want to wait for things to get out of hand, or just walk away now, before I get to watch ESO get turned into another F2P microtransaction-festival?

It's easy to say, "yeah, it doesn't affect me." Until you see when and where it does. Then ignoring the change becomes a lot harder.

I agree, it's equally naive not to expect certain things to be changed to favour and drive traffic to the cash shop. That's going to or has already happened. Champion System for XP pots, motifs for crown store motifs, hirelings for "special crafting packages" maybe.. who knows?

Point is: we aren't going to stop that from happening unless people actually don't buy it. And we will never be able to convince people not to buy it. Everyone is going to make their own decision, and it will either work for ZOS or not, and it will either be OK with "us" or not. Debating it as a whole is futile, it's not going to change anything.

I think you put it beatifully when you said it either works for us or it doesn't. But I disagree with your last sentence, in that I don't think it's futile to discuss these issues. Who knows, we might convince another player not to validate wrong (in our opinion) choices by ZOS.

What I mean by that is that threads that discuss the "why" of the crown store, is futile. Discussing something specific like selling gear, xp pots, what you want and don't want in the store - yes, that's indeed valuable and probably something that Zenimax will read and at least take note of.

A thread that discusses why people want unspecified things to come to the crown store? Not really.

Having an OP that only wants to discuss why it's so bad that people want it, and wants everyone who has a different view to get out of the thread kinda put the nail in the coffin for the productivity of this one.

starkerealm wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I agree, it's equally naive not to expect certain things to be changed to favour and drive traffic to the cash shop. That's going to or has already happened. Champion System for XP pots, motifs for crown store motifs, hirelings for "special crafting packages" maybe.. who knows?

Point is: we aren't going to stop that from happening unless people actually don't buy it. And we will never be able to convince people not to buy it. Everyone is going to make their own decision, and it will either work for ZOS or not, and it will either be OK with "us" or not. Debating it as a whole is futile, it's not going to change anything.

What was the statistic? Whales account for .2% of a game's population and 60% of its income. Yeah. Shank depressing when you think about it. $:\$

I can take the naive blow to the chin. This isn't the first time I've been through this with an MMO. I don't know if that makes it sting more or less, though. And, as before, it doesn't help that it's a franchise I honestly enjoy.

That's correct, but it is also true for a lot of things out there. Money is the primary motivating factor for a lot of people/companies/whatevers. It's an interesting world we live in to say the least. If you don't expect that to invade the gaming space even more, I think you're in for a rough surprise

ThatNeonZebraAgain · April 2015

Interesting discussion in this thread, thanks everyone. The adoration for monetization that many people seem to have is so frustrating and baffling to me. But like eliisra said, it is interesting to view the Crown Store as a way for players to advocate for things they've been wanting all along, using the logic of monetization to push for changes to the game they see as reasonable (of course, it is debatable whether those things should be in the game at all). ZOS has yet to draw the line on what will/won't be in the CS (and how pushy they will be, last Saturday's system message about National Pet Day was telling), so only time will tell.

RainfeatherUK · April 2015

The cash shop apologetics are always a hilarious read. How brainwashed do you want to get?

The system is garbage. It trashes games, with blatant money grab tactics - evident in every case in which its applied. As for democratic opinion, everyone has a right to say something sure. But Its unfortunate we have to listen to most of it. Most posts ZoS listened too should have been clearly ignored.

Business doesn't have to be exclusively about money in the slightest. Its a necessary aspect (That's obvious and those who keep reiterating the point, almost making out others to be ignorant of the fact, is just condescending)
but you can have a dream to see something work, push for an ideal (even at times lose a little profit in pursuit of them) and still remain successful. At least you can hold yourself high with a clean conscience. You may think that has little business value but trust can generate more revenue than people give credit. Good begets good, greed begets corruption.

I've operated in businesses that hold standards above finance (a friend recently founded one in London), so if you think its all devoid of conscience out there you'd be sorely mistaken. I've heard plenty say that if you don't prioritize money you collapse. That's nonsense. If you deliver a quality product that meets promises you'll always have interest. Is it difficult? Yes - A corrupt, lazy western market. Who ofcourse will buy anything that allows them to sideline other people. Its an easy road.

But you don't 'have' to lower yourself to that. You can actually make a difference in the global market. By treating people with respect. If that wasn't the case, my girl Cheryl wouldn't be sat on a million pound fashion start up.

B2P/F2P. Its a greed, laziness and an exploiter powerhouse. One that's becoming more and more popular, as the world tells people its 'ok' to step on others, in pursuit of money. Little more than that. Heres a hint - It isnt ok at all.

daemonios · April 2015

This:

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

As for democratic opinion, everyone has a right to say something sure. But Its unfortunate we have to listen to most of it.

And this:

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

But you don't 'have' to lower yourself to that. You can actually make a difference in the global market. By treating people with respect.

Don't seem to compute very well together.

I understand your points and agree with most of them, but I think you have a problem with different opinions.

Zorrashi · April 2015

I agree with the OP at every point.

It is somewhat disheartening to see people clamoring for things like XP boosts, character level enhancement and the like to be implemented in the cash shop.
While adding certain things in the cash shop is good, and even healthy for a B2P MMO, most of the time it eventually becomes something close to P2W or an overactive cash grab.

MCMancub · April 2015

Genomic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I'm going to dig up the metaphor I used in another thread on this subject.

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Do you think that companies exist in a capitalist market to not earn money?

Because the desire to make money is an absolution for all your sins?

The problem with this argument is that it gets used to excuse any behavior so long as it improves the bottom line. It's a bit like saying, "well, sure that busload of nuns plowed through a day care center, but that's what buses do, they go places. What did you expect?"

A small amount of self control, maybe.

Maybe you can add to the analogy that no one got injured as there were no one in the day care center because no one wanted to play there due to people (not myself) not finding value for their money?

If you don't want to hear "we want to make money" as an excuse, then don't live in a capitalist society.

Genomic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I already expressly addressed that in the OP, and said that wasn't the issue I'm talking about.

I don't agree that you did. You can say "I'm not talking about the need for ZOS to make money" but if you complain that people are trying to find ways for them to make money - that's exactly what you are talking about. It's the same thing.

People have accepted that stuff is gonna cost money from now on, might as well try and get something worth it in there. Let's not pretend that we're gonna get appearance and name changes for free, that would be completely stupid of them, so if we want them we have to ask for them in the Crown Store. Unless we were born yesterday in which case we could ask for them to make it free, and make rainbows and unicorns drop from the sky too.

Again, missing the point. I quite clearly said that I'm aware that B2P is the current business model and that is the primary revenue stream now. It's about 1) Over monetization 2) The effect this will have on the game itself - this is not just a supposition, you can see plenty of real world MMO examples where cash shops altered the game for the worse and 3) That some people are almost begging for this to happen.

1. Is it up to you to decide what is over monetization? I don't think any company ever thought they were making too much money. Anything that will provide good revenue while not ruining the game to the point where too many valuable customers will leave, is going to end up there. Yes, if you're not spending money - you won't be as important of a customer to retain as those who do. When you go to your local bar, do you expect to be served as fast as the group who orders a lot of expensive stuff and leave great tips? Don't..

2. I agree, but it is irrelevant at this point. You, me or anyone in this thread will not change the outcome of this. It's like "consumer power".. yeah, sure, but there is no clear cut cause that you can rally people behind. I want name changes, I will never boycott the Crown Store. Never, I'll buy as much stuff as I feel like. And a lot of the people complaining will do the same as soon as something they want comes out. And if they don't, well .. look at 1 again. You don't buy, you are a net loss .. who's gonna care?

3. Yes, you have to consider that people might just want different things from you. And if they are willing to pay more than you are willing to pay, chances are they'll get it. I saw everyone cry about motifs yesterday, and I'm like.. well, I have them all. But if another one comes out and is ~equally "hard to get" as Dwemer, which took me ~10 hours of farming to get the full thing.. it's cheaper for me to buy it with money than to farm it, if I want it. $40 is less than 2 hours work. So for me, it makes sense. I get to spend more of my free time just playing rather than farming, while for someone who doesn't make much money - it makes more sense to farm it.

I don't mind either way, I'm here as long as it makes sense for me to do so i.e. as long as I feel I'm getting my moneys worth from the game. I think everyone should just stick to that, and this forum wouldn't be 50% complaint threads.

starkerealm wrote: »

To take your, "well, there in this to make money" to it's logical extreme would be, "it's cool kill people and take their stuff, because, hey, it makes money."

You make it sound like that doesn't happen. The difference is your example is against the law in most countries, this.. isn't.

Guy, if you're just going to repeatedly miss the point, then you should just bow out of the discussion. I don't want to have to explain again what I said, it's all in the OP and no-one else seems to have had a problem understanding my point, only you.

You're not listening to what anyone else has to say. You can't define what over monetization is if you don't know (none of us do) what ZOS's business costs are. If they have to push this much on us to survive, so be it. I'd rather have ads in ESO than no ESO. More and more these threads are being created by people who clearly have no concept of the business world.

starkerealm · April 2015

daemonios wrote: »

This:

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

As for democratic opinion, everyone has a right to say something sure. But Its unfortunate we have to listen to most of it.

And this:

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

But you don't 'have' to lower yourself to that. You can actually make a difference in the global market. By treating people with respect.

Don't seem to compute very well together.

I understand your points and agree with most of them, but I think you have a problem with different opinions.

Not in what I read.

The former is a comment about people being allowed to express their opinion. The later is a statement about ethics and business practices being compatible.