Why are some people so eager for over-monetization?

Genomic · April 2015

First let me quote Matt Firor.

"And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all."

Now we know that the business model has changed, so the above quote (sadly) isn't exactly applicable any more. But it does illustrate a concern with how MMOs are run, and how monetization can and typically does negatively affect the quality, gameplay, and, well, spirit of a game.

We're seeing more and more being added to the cash shop, and there is more to come still. The vision Matt had for the game was a great one, even if it was unsuccessful, but it seems to me that by dropping this vision the game is already less than what it was, and will become increasingly eroded over time as the influence and impact of the Crown store grows. On the other hand I recognise that ESOs revenue stream must be made primarily through the cash shop now, for good or ill. But seeing the path other B2P/F2P games have gone down, this needs to be done very, very carefully and cautiously.

Which brings me to my other main concern. Far from the careful and cautious approach, many people seem to be clamouring for runaway monetization. There are threads where people are saying they'd eagerly pay large sums of money for almost any boost, change, or item. ZOS will cater to what players want, in particular if it helps the bottom line, and it is my concern that these people, who speak the loudest with their wallet, will be the ones driving the game's future.

You might take the Randian, free market approach and say that people who pay more money deserve greater representation. Maybe that's true, but it will also modify ESO into a different game. It will no longer be the ESO we have enjoyed over the last year. It will be one where cash shop is king and other considerations - content, gameplay, etc, become secondary.

Please, don't say "ESO has to make money" or "ESO is B2P now, so get with the program" because as I've mentioned, I'm already aware of that. This post is not about that. It's about my concerns for an over focus on adding/promoting Crown Store items - cash shop over content - and about the sheer eagerness by which some people are pushing (almost begging) for this to occur.

Do we really want ESO going down that path?

xMovingTarget · April 2015

Yea, I agree with you mate. Every second thread in the forums is about the crownstore. Not about the game. Something is really off here.. It needs to stop.

michael_bimson · April 2015

ESO is already on that path.

From ZOS point of view the cash shop is their main revenue stream and they should sell whatever will generate the most income in the cash shop.

The only way that ZOS will know what generates the most money is from Player feedback (either through purchases or requests).

These Players obviously have their own ideas for where ESO should be going and what would make the game better for them and are letting ZOS know through the forum in the hope that it will be implemented. That is where the over focus, as you describe it, is coming from. It is an attempt to influence what ZOS will put into the cash shop.

You could argue that it a concession by these players that ESO has been changed by the cash shop and it is their attempt to retain some measure of control over the game. Some of the ideas are not bad suggestions per se, things like the change of appearance or change of name etc. They're just features that some people want to see and see the cash shop as a way of getting it implemented. To focus ZOS on new content, whatever content they release next will have to be very profitable. Then ZOS will have the necessary carrot to develop content.

AH93 · April 2015

Sadly most online games, (even some single player games now!), have gone down a path of monetising every little thing they can, because why bother actually playing the game and putting in the effort to unlock items, when you can stand in town spending money in the in-game store?

Sense of achievement slowly trickling away.

starkerealm · April 2015

AH93 wrote: »

Sadly most online games, (even some single player games now!), have gone down a path of monetising every little thing they can, because why bother actually playing the game and putting in the effort to unlock items, when you can stand in town spending money in the in-game store?

Sense of achievement slowly trickling away.

Ironically, you have this a little backwards. Publishers are asking, "why bother selling a game as a product when you could turn it into a service platform instead and pull money in over and over?" It's part of what lead to the high profile MMO boom with games like Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, The Old Repbulic, Star Trek Online, DC Universe Online, ect. The idea that you could sell a game, and then get people to cough up 15 bucks a month after that for as long as they wanted to continue playing.

Microtransactions weren't added to Dead Space 3 because there were people who didn't want to play the game. It was because publishers wanted a venue to pull in more money. So they threw lockboxes into a single player game. It's why stuff like Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age Inquisition ended up with free to play style microtransaction systems buried in their multiplayer components.

The idea that, "no, really, we can make more money on this."

Even the rampant idiotic DLC releases for something like Saints Row 3 and 4. Where there's something like 20 items for each, and it's freakin' skin packs.

What has happened though, is marketing has kept billing this as "value added" rather than, "yeah, we chopped out parts of our game, and now we're going to sell them back to you." Which was the case with Human Revolution, where all the preorder DLC packs were literally in the game, you just couldn't pick up the items or get the dialog node to run the missions. It wasn't even just, on disk, it was actually in game.

And, some people believe that. I remember seeing someone arguing that ESO should go to a Neverwinter style F2P system. Which is to say a horrifically P2W system, because you can always grind until your eyes bleed for the premium stuff. That is to say farming every day all day for a couple bucks worth of the premium currency. (If STO's rates are anything to go by). Because, they honestly believed it was a non-exploitative setup. Because you could put in a 40 hour week grinding in order to get a 10 dollar premium item that was flat out better than anything you could obtain without using the real money currency.

Valymer · April 2015

michael_bimson wrote: »

ESO is already on that path.

This. The time for lofty ideals and nostalgia for the golden era of MMORPGs has come and gone. It seems the majority of the playerbase was against the B2P /cash shop transition but regardless it is here to stay. May as well go ahead and throw the exp potions in the shop so we can get to grinding.

The other option is to quit.

AH93 · April 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

AH93 wrote: »

Sadly most online games, (even some single player games now!), have gone down a path of monetising every little thing they can, because why bother actually playing the game and putting in the effort to unlock items, when you can stand in town spending money in the in-game store?

Sense of achievement slowly trickling away.

Ironically, you have this a little backwards. Publishers are asking, "why bother selling a game as a product when you could turn it into a service platform instead and pull money in over and over?" It's part of what lead to the high profile MMO boom with games like Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, The Old Repbulic, Star Trek Online, DC Universe Online, ect. The idea that you could sell a game, and then get people to cough up 15 bucks a month after that for as long as they wanted to continue playing.

Microtransactions weren't added to Dead Space 3 because there were people who didn't want to play the game. It was because publishers wanted a venue to pull in more money. So they threw lockboxes into a single player game. It's why stuff like Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age Inquisition ended up with free to play style microtransaction systems buried in their multiplayer components.

The idea that, "no, really, we can make more money on this."

Even the rampant idiotic DLC releases for something like Saints Row 3 and 4. Where there's something like 20 items for each, and it's freakin' skin packs.

What has happened though, is marketing has kept billing this as "value added" rather than, "yeah, we chopped out parts of our game, and now we're going to sell them back to you." Which was the case with Human Revolution, where all the preorder DLC packs were literally in the game, you just couldn't pick up the items or get the dialog node to run the missions. It wasn't even just, on disk, it was actually in game.

And, some people believe that. I remember seeing someone arguing that ESO should go to a Neverwinter style F2P system. Which is to say a horrifically P2W system, because you can always grind until your eyes bleed for the premium stuff. That is to say farming every day all day for a couple bucks worth of the premium currency. (If STO's rates are anything to go by). Because, they honestly believed it was a non-exploitative setup. Because you could put in a 40 hour week grinding in order to get a 10 dollar premium item that was flat out better than anything you could obtain without using the real money currency.

Yep true enough, it's a shame but I guess it's a sign of the times, at least there's a few decent companies left, (CD Projekt Red).

Faulgor · April 2015

I'm not sure where those people came from, but I suppose they arrived with the B2P change.

Kronosphere · April 2015

i think its a case of everyone have say, 5 things they REALLY want access to, for example i REALLY want nix hound pet, kouguti mount, max speed rentable horse for alt, and free teleportation pass and whatever else. after they are in id be happy. thing is everyones 5 (or so) things are different to my 5 things. so it appears that everyone just wants a billion things asap on crown store. if that makes sense?

Pendrillion · April 2015

I wager a guess and say, a lot of the Forum activities are driven by people who profit from MMO's. I always find it a little suspect how strong the push toward F2P in most MMO's is. I suspect a lot of posts in this forum come from Goldfarmers or from people hired of that Industry. Or people who make a living out of those aspects of the Internet.

Other than that... Convenience... Well so far I found that ZOS got some traction back on me believing in their project. Mainly by looking at the prices in the crown store. Especially after the launch with Motifs. For my own sake I hope DLC prices aren't at 15K Crowns when the first one gets out.

What surprises me, since I got into MMOs is the peoples jumping at every opportunity to cut corners. Like the idea for XP boost potions or battle ready toons. I mean I can understand that it can be inconvenient to level your character. But much of what makes you a good PVP or PVE trial player is learning the mechanics of this game. And in my opinion that is where PVE and levelling your character through the games story is essential. Of course levelling alts can be a nuissance. But its neither impossible, nor are you barred from partaking into the PVP arena. PVE endgame, is a bit of a different story. Admittably. Still. You have your venues to be successful in this game. And by end of the day you circumvent your own chance at an rewarding experience by cutting corners.

At least thats my two septims on it.

starkerealm · April 2015

Pendrillion wrote: »

I wager a guess and say, a lot of the Forum activities are driven by people who profit from MMO's. I always find it a little suspect how strong the push toward F2P in most MMO's is. I suspect a lot of posts in this forum come from Goldfarmers or from people hired of that Industry. Or people who make a living out of those aspects of the Internet.

Looking at the account profiles of posters asking for the delete limit to be removed is... enlightening, most of the time.

pppontus · April 2015

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

Genomic · April 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I already expressly addressed that in the OP, and said that wasn't the issue I'm talking about.

starkerealm · April 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I'm going to dig up the metaphor I used in another thread on this subject.

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Do you think that companies exist in a capitalist market to not earn money?

Because the desire to make money is an absolution for all your sins?

The problem with this argument is that it gets used to excuse any behavior so long as it improves the bottom line. It's a bit like saying, "well, sure that busload of nuns plowed through a day care center, but that's what buses do, they go places. What did you expect?"

A small amount of self control, maybe.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · April 2015

michael_bimson wrote: »

ESO is already on that path.

From ZOS point of view the cash shop is their main revenue stream and they should sell whatever will generate the most income in the cash shop.

This is where a game can be made stronger and better by having a playing community with integrity.

I've spent tens-of-thousands of Turbine Points in LOTRO's cash shop.

I have bought bagspace.
I have bought bank space.
I have bought shared bank space (in fact over my 7 serious toons I have over 1,100 total storage slots).
I have bought Wardrobe space (for LOTRO's cosmetics system).
I've bought a cosmetic outfit.

I've never bought rare crafting materials.
The only "consumable" I have bought is the Deed Accelerators (and anyone who has tried completing all of the Slayer Deeds knows just how much that is needed).

If players buy with integrity ZoS will be forced to sell with integrity.

All The Best

kevlarto_ESO · April 2015

I understand what your saying op one only need to travel to a galaxy far far away if they want to see game where monetization is out of hand, even though they still offer a sub option it has little value to it imho.

The reality of the matter is that the crown store will grow, I am sure at some point name changes and other services will be offered DLC's , extra storage, more costumes, more mounts, and who knows what else, I do hope they don't go overboard. I have no problem with a for profit company making money, but this is a game and for me it needs to be fun once the store gets to the point where it takes away the fun for me I will have to part ways.

I have not spent one crown in the store I still have a sub, even though they say that subbed players will get the dlc's as part of being subbed I am not spending a crown until I see that in action, I just got a sneaky suspicion, that the crowns they give us a month will have to be used to get the dlc's, even if you have a sub, I have seen this in other games, I will have to wait and see if they meant what they said literally and we do get the dlc's or we have to use our free crowns.

Razzak · April 2015

@OP: Could not agree more.
But sadly, the most important participant of this and similar debates is, and will stay absent. As we can all see, any kind of debate in regards to such practices and their reasoning is lacking ZOS's point of view or their "wisdom" about reasons for such a development.
Simply said, they just don't care.

jcasini222ub17_ESO · April 2015

yea this is def a way better enviromenalthough the b2p change seemed to be in the works since pc launch, i do wonder if it wasnt for the extreme bugs/gold sellers/bots/and absurd camping at the start if they ever would have dropped the sub for pc. If it went smooth, perfectly smooth, I wonder if they would have kept the sub in place and just did different payment options for console. Openly admitting that they are catering to different markets.

daemonios · April 2015

ESO missed an opportunity to be the next great subscription-model MMO. It missed it very early on by ZOS' inability to fix ongoing issues that drove away many players (e.g. the PvP lag, especially around July '14 when in addition to lag we had the Big FPS Drop of 2014).

A subscription is not incompatible with cash stores. There are many things that could be sold for money: character renames, race/faction changes, etc. But the subscription would hold the developers accountable to its clients. I firmly believe that no subscription is harmful to the game. Exactly how much, we will yet see.

Gidorick · April 2015

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

michael_bimson wrote: »

ESO is already on that path.

From ZOS point of view the cash shop is their main revenue stream and they should sell whatever will generate the most income in the cash shop.

This is where a game can be made stronger and better by having a playing community with integrity.

I've spent tens-of-thousands of Turbine Points in LOTRO's cash shop.

I have bought bagspace.
I have bought bank space.
I have bought shared bank space (in fact over my 7 serious toons I have over 1,100 total storage slots).
I have bought Wardrobe space (for LOTRO's cosmetics system).
I've bought a cosmetic outfit.

I've never bought rare crafting materials.
The only "consumable" I have bought is the Deed Accelerators (and anyone who has tried completing all of the Slayer Deeds knows just how much that is needed).

If players buy with integrity ZoS will be forced to sell with integrity.

All The Best

This. You can speak with your wallet. See something in the crown store that optimizes the type of item that should be offered? Buy it! See one that you think should never be in the crown store? Don't buy it.

Unfortunately, there are throngs of people out there that just really don't care. They don't care about ESO, TES, Lore, or even ZOS. As long as they can log-in and feel like a big-boy-of-badassery, they'll buy every single corner cutting, extra buffing, end gaming item offered.

daemonios · April 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Pendrillion wrote: »

I wager a guess and say, a lot of the Forum activities are driven by people who profit from MMO's. I always find it a little suspect how strong the push toward F2P in most MMO's is. I suspect a lot of posts in this forum come from Goldfarmers or from people hired of that Industry. Or people who make a living out of those aspects of the Internet.

Looking at the account profiles of posters asking for the delete limit to be removed is... enlightening, most of the time.

I've often wondered about this myself. And at times when I'm feeling more conspiracy-theorist, I wonder if ZOS itself isn't astro-turfing the forums to push more forms of monetization or to make it seem like there are more supporters for that model than there are in reality.

Tandor · April 2015

AH93 wrote: »

Sadly most online games, (even some single player games now!), have gone down a path of monetising every little thing they can, because why bother actually playing the game and putting in the effort to unlock items, when you can stand in town spending money in the in-game store?

Sense of achievement slowly trickling away.

There's no doubt that this sort of change appeals to some players, and that's fair enough - each to his or her own. However, those to whom it doesn't appeal can simply choose to ignore those items in the Crown Store and get the same sense of achievement from earning the items in-game as they did before, without needing to worry over how other players got the items.

pppontus · April 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I'm going to dig up the metaphor I used in another thread on this subject.

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Do you think that companies exist in a capitalist market to not earn money?

Because the desire to make money is an absolution for all your sins?

The problem with this argument is that it gets used to excuse any behavior so long as it improves the bottom line. It's a bit like saying, "well, sure that busload of nuns plowed through a day care center, but that's what buses do, they go places. What did you expect?"

A small amount of self control, maybe.

Maybe you can add to the analogy that no one got injured as there were no one in the day care center because no one wanted to play there due to people (not myself) not finding value for their money?

If you don't want to hear "we want to make money" as an excuse, then don't live in a capitalist society.

Genomic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I already expressly addressed that in the OP, and said that wasn't the issue I'm talking about.

I don't agree that you did. You can say "I'm not talking about the need for ZOS to make money" but if you complain that people are trying to find ways for them to make money - that's exactly what you are talking about. It's the same thing.

People have accepted that stuff is gonna cost money from now on, might as well try and get something worth it in there. Let's not pretend that we're gonna get appearance and name changes for free, that would be completely stupid of them, so if we want them we have to ask for them in the Crown Store. Unless we were born yesterday in which case we could ask for them to make it free, and make rainbows and unicorns drop from the sky too.

xMovingTarget · April 2015

We are cows now.

Genomic · April 2015

pppontus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I'm going to dig up the metaphor I used in another thread on this subject.

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Do you think that companies exist in a capitalist market to not earn money?

Because the desire to make money is an absolution for all your sins?

The problem with this argument is that it gets used to excuse any behavior so long as it improves the bottom line. It's a bit like saying, "well, sure that busload of nuns plowed through a day care center, but that's what buses do, they go places. What did you expect?"

A small amount of self control, maybe.

Maybe you can add to the analogy that no one got injured as there were no one in the day care center because no one wanted to play there due to people (not myself) not finding value for their money?

If you don't want to hear "we want to make money" as an excuse, then don't live in a capitalist society.

Genomic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I already expressly addressed that in the OP, and said that wasn't the issue I'm talking about.

I don't agree that you did. You can say "I'm not talking about the need for ZOS to make money" but if you complain that people are trying to find ways for them to make money - that's exactly what you are talking about. It's the same thing.

People have accepted that stuff is gonna cost money from now on, might as well try and get something worth it in there. Let's not pretend that we're gonna get appearance and name changes for free, that would be completely stupid of them, so if we want them we have to ask for them in the Crown Store. Unless we were born yesterday in which case we could ask for them to make it free, and make rainbows and unicorns drop from the sky too.

Again, missing the point. I quite clearly said that I'm aware that B2P is the current business model and that is the primary revenue stream now. It's about 1) Over monetization 2) The effect this will have on the game itself - this is not just a supposition, you can see plenty of real world MMO examples where cash shops altered the game for the worse and 3) That some people are almost begging for this to happen.

Alphashado · April 2015

Tandor wrote: »

AH93 wrote: »

Sadly most online games, (even some single player games now!), have gone down a path of monetising every little thing they can, because why bother actually playing the game and putting in the effort to unlock items, when you can stand in town spending money in the in-game store?

Sense of achievement slowly trickling away.

There's no doubt that this sort of change appeals to some players, and that's fair enough - each to his or her own. However, those to whom it doesn't appeal can simply choose to ignore those items in the Crown Store and get the same sense of achievement from earning the items in-game as they did before, without needing to worry over how other players got the items.

That is much easier said than done. One of the main reasons I was attracted to ESO in the first place was because it was a subscription model and because of quotes like the one in the OP from Matt. I want a good, well designed MMO that does NOT revolve around a cash store.

Cash shop this, cash shop that. It's like being at a car dealership with a salesman approaching me every 2 minutes or having a telemarketer call me 10 times a day.

We don't want it and it's impossible to ignore if trying to avoid it was one of the main reasons we came here in the first place.

What I find hilariously ironic is how people whine about being forced to dish out $15 per month on a sub, yet they will spend ungodly amounts of money in the cash store on things that are free in a sub model with a little effort.

starkerealm · April 2015

pppontus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I'm going to dig up the metaphor I used in another thread on this subject.

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Do you think that companies exist in a capitalist market to not earn money?

Because the desire to make money is an absolution for all your sins?

The problem with this argument is that it gets used to excuse any behavior so long as it improves the bottom line. It's a bit like saying, "well, sure that busload of nuns plowed through a day care center, but that's what buses do, they go places. What did you expect?"

A small amount of self control, maybe.

Maybe you can add to the analogy that no one got injured as there were no one in the day care center because no one wanted to play there due to people (not myself) not finding value for their money?

If you don't want to hear "we want to make money" as an excuse, then don't live in a capitalist society.

Making money is fine. That's what ESO was, remember? They sold a product, we bought it... but, now, they're no longer selling the product we bought. And, changing it into something we very specifically did not buy. Calling it "bait and switch" or "fraud" is probably overly dramatic, but there's still an element of truth to it.

We were sold on a subscription only MMO. Now, they've removed that, and are turning it into just another micro-transaction festival with in game advertising. Which, isn't what we signed up for. Saying, "it's a company, they're here to make money," doesn't excuse their behavior, it can only provide a motive.

To take your, "well, there in this to make money" to it's logical extreme would be, "it's cool kill people and take their stuff, because, hey, it makes money."

daemonios · April 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Do you yourself work for a company that makes money? Would that company not be interested in selling products that people express they are interested in, especially products that have a low production cost?

You can complain about it all you want, but yes, what makes money is what controls companies (since well, companies are started mainly to make money) and thus the highest value clients will dictate development in most cases.

You have to be very naive not to understand this, and that people don't complain about doesn't necessarily mean we like it - it just means we are aware of how our society functions already and know that everyone wants our money

I'm going to dig up the metaphor I used in another thread on this subject.

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Do you think that companies exist in a capitalist market to not earn money?

Because the desire to make money is an absolution for all your sins?

The problem with this argument is that it gets used to excuse any behavior so long as it improves the bottom line. It's a bit like saying, "well, sure that busload of nuns plowed through a day care center, but that's what buses do, they go places. What did you expect?"

A small amount of self control, maybe.

Maybe you can add to the analogy that no one got injured as there were no one in the day care center because no one wanted to play there due to people (not myself) not finding value for their money?

If you don't want to hear "we want to make money" as an excuse, then don't live in a capitalist society.

Making money is fine. That's what ESO was, remember? They sold a product, we bought it... but, now, they're no longer selling the product we bought. And, changing it into something we very specifically did not buy. Calling it "bait and switch" or "fraud" is probably overly dramatic, but there's still an element of truth to it.

We were sold on a subscription only MMO. Now, they've removed that, and are turning it into just another micro-transaction festival with in game advertising. Which, isn't what we signed up for. Saying, "it's a company, they're here to make money," doesn't excuse their behavior, it can only provide a motive.

To take your, "well, there in this to make money" to it's logical extreme would be, "it's cool kill people and take their stuff, because, hey, it makes money."

I agree with you 100%. And I think we can still do something about it: vote with our wallets. I've said this time and time again, if I feel ESO has crossed a line into P2W, I'm out. I don't have anything against people who like the model, but I personally don't, and don't want to enable it by staying and playing despite my objections.

Psychobunni · April 2015

Genomic wrote: »

We're seeing more and more being added to the cash shop, and there is more to come still. The vision Matt had for the game was a great one, even if it was unsuccessful, but it seems to me that by dropping this vision the game is already less than what it was, and will become increasingly eroded over time as the influence and impact of the Crown store grows. On the other hand I recognise that ESOs revenue stream must be made primarily through the cash shop now, for good or ill. But seeing the path other B2P/F2P games have gone down, this needs to be done very, very carefully and cautiously.

I argued several times on "what you want in crown store" threads about players asking to pay for things that are a set standard of being free with in game currency, but I want it all and I want it now mentality doesn't allow it to sink in. I gave up because ZOS mod's you for telling people they are being stupid. I can't even be mad at ZOS for capitalizing on the impatience, I'm just mad they won't share a buyers list so I can sell these people air.

I can only chalk it up to *some* players are willing to accept poor quality and low brow tactics if it gets them what they think they want. Ofc, some are offended by that too.

xMovingTarget · April 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

We're seeing more and more being added to the cash shop, and there is more to come still. The vision Matt had for the game was a great one, even if it was unsuccessful, but it seems to me that by dropping this vision the game is already less than what it was, and will become increasingly eroded over time as the influence and impact of the Crown store grows. On the other hand I recognise that ESOs revenue stream must be made primarily through the cash shop now, for good or ill. But seeing the path other B2P/F2P games have gone down, this needs to be done very, very carefully and cautiously.

I argued several times on "what you want in crown store" threads about players asking to pay for things that are a set standard of being free with in game currency, but I want it all and I want it now mentality doesn't allow it to sink in. I gave up because ZOS mod's you for telling people they are being stupid. I can't even be mad at ZOS for capitalizing on the impatience, I'm just mad they won't share a buyers list so I can sell these people air.

I can only chalk it up to *some* players are willing to accept poor quality and low brow tactics if it gets them what they think they want. Ofc, some are offended by that too.

Sad but true.

daemonios · April 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

I gave up because ZOS mod's you for telling people they are being stupid.

I can see why you were modded right there

Price of democracy is that you have to put up with different opinions. That doesn't necessarily make people stupid. In the particular case of ESO, maybe they're people who think their time is worth more than the money they'd spend in the crown store.