PvE in Cyrodiil

Keron · April 2015

pppontus wrote: »

I see tons and tons of EP pvping on Azura, however they are completely oblivious to everything that's going on and gets stuck fighting in a single spot while we take the entire map from them.. Seems every evening we push pop locked reds to the gate and then log off..

I don't think there's an excessive amount PVE:ing honestly, it's just the alliance doesn't seem to have a clue what to do to take and hold keeps and rather get farmed at arrius or by the bananas

Make an EP toon and just one evening watch it from our side. It will be enlightening, I bet.

Jauriel · April 2015

I could be wrong but Pontus could be referring to NA server.

Keron · April 2015

No I think I remember him commenting on the EU thornblade thread quite a lot, so I would guess he is EU.

pppontus · April 2015

Keron wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I see tons and tons of EP pvping on Azura, however they are completely oblivious to everything that's going on and gets stuck fighting in a single spot while we take the entire map from them.. Seems every evening we push pop locked reds to the gate and then log off..

I don't think there's an excessive amount PVE:ing honestly, it's just the alliance doesn't seem to have a clue what to do to take and hold keeps and rather get farmed at arrius or by the bananas

Make an EP toon and just one evening watch it from our side. It will be enlightening, I bet.

Can you please explain to me how that makes a difference?

I am there most days, I see the 50+ EP train every day. I also see us owning the entire map and no one ever attacking a single one of our keeps, except the bananas who are like 20 total and still manage to take a bunch of things.

I am one of the people who rush for kingscrest when you guys actually do attack somewhere else and wipe the group with one fire ballista..

Try attacking breakers sometime, 8 people you can flip it before a single person defends it - then you can take chal and arrius if you split that 100 men across objectives.

The thing is, most dc are equally stupid and just keep pushing back and forth - but you guys lose because of 2-3 small groups who actually do take all your ***.

I watched it so many times - about 50-100 people on both sides fighting at arrius, meanwhile we take kings and another group takes Farragut. Boom arrius lost and you are at the scroll temple again.

If you really think there's not 100+ EP pvpers I'll try and remember to screenshot one of those tonight.

pppontus · April 2015

To clarify, I'm not saying no one is doing pve - but it's not like EP is losing because of pve'rs because you definitely have the numbers to put up a good fight. Not the tactics.

Azura is basically a blue buff campaign so it's where all the DC pve'rs go as well.

Keron · April 2015

Ok. Suit yourself.

pppontus · April 2015

Keron wrote: »

Ok.

I get that you don't want EP to be outplayed, that it's more comfortable to say that you don't have the numbers.

No reds on Azura?

Still laggy as ***.

Keron · April 2015

@pppontus if you would like to have one of the "I am more right than you and I have screenshots" discussions, then by all means open one in the "Campaigns" section or continue the EU thorn thread.

I have invited you and will invite anyone who thinks it important to doubt my feel of the azura campaign instead of discussing the topic, to come there and experience it from EP side. You don't want to, fine. But stop trying to drag this topic down to what you think is necessary.

pppontus · April 2015

Keron wrote: »

@pppontus if you would like to have one of the "I am more right than you and I have screenshots" discussions, then by all means open one in the "Campaigns" section or continue the EU thorn thread.

I have invited you and will invite anyone who thinks it important to doubt my feel of the azura campaign instead of discussing the topic, to come there and experience it from EP side. You don't want to, fine. But stop trying to drag this topic down to what you think is necessary.

Alrighty, have fun continuing to lose Azuras and blame it on "PVE" then.

Don't say I didn't try to help you.

On topic: Absolutely not, PVE should stay in Cyrodiil and is an integral part of it. It is an open world war, there should be no such crap as PVE only campaigns or PVP campaigns where everything outside "the line" is dead. There is no evidence that there's ever been such an occasion that a campaign has been lost due to PVEr's since the PVE'rs will generally only join campaigns where their alliance is dominating.

Rune_Relic · April 2015

@pppontus do you mind if we call on your services in future ?
..and is that screenshot prime time ?

Just in case our maps aren't being updated with keep status info or something ?
We can be pop locked off peak too.....we dont see anything like the numbers shown in that screenshot offpeak.
We only see that kind of EP blobbing when all groups in primetime join up.
That would literally be the whole of EP.

pppontus · April 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

@pppontus do you mind if we call on your services in future ?
..and is that screenshot prime time ?

Just in case our maps aren't being updated with keep status info or something ?
We can be pop locked off peak too.....we dont see anything like the numbers shown in that screenshot offpeak.
We only see that kind of EP blobbing when all groups in primetime join up.
That would literally be the whole of EP.

I already gave you the full strategy

This was prime time about two hours or so before you got pushed to the gates yesterday. EP is equally pop locked every single day though, and then everyone logs off once you lost everything - in my opinion

I don't see how you can have more people pop locked prime time than pop locked outside prime time ^_^

Rune_Relic · April 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

@pppontus do you mind if we call on your services in future ?
..and is that screenshot prime time ?

Just in case our maps aren't being updated with keep status info or something ?
We can be pop locked off peak too.....we dont see anything like the numbers shown in that screenshot offpeak.
We only see that kind of EP blobbing when all groups in primetime join up.
That would literally be the whole of EP.

I already gave you the full strategy

This was prime time about two hours or so before you got pushed to the gates yesterday. EP is equally pop locked every single day though, and then everyone logs off once you lost everything - in my opinion

I don't see how you can have more people pop locked prime time than pop locked outside prime time ^_^

Exactly the point...we cant often beat you in a straight up battle [not ashamed to admit that].
Many of the original PVP players with experience have left and been replaced with new recruits.
You have more experienced higher quality players....and a few dubious ones.
A handful of Veteran players try to perform miracles, but there is no major guilds as such.

So we need to make in roads out of hours.
Out of hours we are pop locked but no people around...no keeps are being taken...no resource are being taken.
Hence the OP.

pppontus · April 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

@pppontus do you mind if we call on your services in future ?
..and is that screenshot prime time ?

Just in case our maps aren't being updated with keep status info or something ?
We can be pop locked off peak too.....we dont see anything like the numbers shown in that screenshot offpeak.
We only see that kind of EP blobbing when all groups in primetime join up.
That would literally be the whole of EP.

I already gave you the full strategy

This was prime time about two hours or so before you got pushed to the gates yesterday. EP is equally pop locked every single day though, and then everyone logs off once you lost everything - in my opinion

I don't see how you can have more people pop locked prime time than pop locked outside prime time ^_^

Exactly the point...we cant often beat you in a straight up battle [not ashamed to admit that].
Many of the original PVP players with experience have left and been replaced with new recruits.
You have more experienced higher quality players....and a few dubious ones.
A handful of Veteran players try to perform miracles, but there is no major guilds as such.

So we need to make in roads out of hours.
Out of hours we are pop locked but no people around...no keeps are being taken...no resource are being taken.

Fair enough, I agree the activity is low. But for example I played a bunch this morning, and there was basically 4-5 people attacking Kingscrest and failed. Then the rest of the midday was spent with 20-30 DC and 20-30 EP pushing back and forth between Arrius and Farra as per usual. We only had a duo so couldn't really make much of a difference either, but were travelling between there and whatever the bananas attacked.

Without knowing exactly what players you have, it just seems like someone needs to pick them up and teach them where to go, 'cause they have the typical PUG behavior of only always running straight to the next objective in line. Which is a bit too easy to defend against (for both sides, just taking turns attacking and defending)

There are some really good players on EP there as well, problem is you can't really make a dent in the campaign with individual skilled players, but if some of those could rally the pugs and go 50/50 instead you would definitely be able to gain ground, especially outside prime time as the DC population is also really "bad" then.

Dunno if you saw, but yesterday about 20 bananas flipped all emp keeps save for Chal.. DC pugs didn't even go to defend until we had only one keep left. Imo the only reason we're winning is because no one on the other side is taking keeps behind our back, not that DC is more skilled or anything.

Sharee · April 2015

Keron wrote: »

True as long as population is in a healthy proportion. If you have 10 PvEers for every single PvPer, it's unhealthy.

Do the PvE'rs have some sort of union going that decides for them where to move en-masse?

Because otherwise i don't see how there could be 10 PvErs for every single PvPer on EU azura EP side, but not anywhere else. That would be a minor statistical miracle.

Rune_Relic · April 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

@pppontus do you mind if we call on your services in future ?
..and is that screenshot prime time ?

Just in case our maps aren't being updated with keep status info or something ?
We can be pop locked off peak too.....we dont see anything like the numbers shown in that screenshot offpeak.
We only see that kind of EP blobbing when all groups in primetime join up.
That would literally be the whole of EP.

I already gave you the full strategy

This was prime time about two hours or so before you got pushed to the gates yesterday. EP is equally pop locked every single day though, and then everyone logs off once you lost everything - in my opinion

I don't see how you can have more people pop locked prime time than pop locked outside prime time ^_^

Exactly the point...we cant often beat you in a straight up battle [not ashamed to admit that].
Many of the original PVP players with experience have left and been replaced with new recruits.
You have more experienced higher quality players....and a few dubious ones.
A handful of Veteran players try to perform miracles, but there is no major guilds as such.

So we need to make in roads out of hours.
Out of hours we are pop locked but no people around...no keeps are being taken...no resource are being taken.

Fair enough, I agree the activity is low. But for example I played a bunch this morning, and there was basically 4-5 people attacking Kingscrest and failed. Then the rest of the midday was spent with 20-30 DC and 20-30 EP pushing back and forth between Arrius and Farra as per usual. We only had a duo so couldn't really make much of a difference either, but were travelling between there and whatever the bananas attacked.

Without knowing exactly what players you have, it just seems like someone needs to pick them up and teach them where to go, 'cause they have the typical PUG behavior of only always running straight to the next objective in line. Which is a bit too easy to defend against (for both sides, just taking turns attacking and defending)

There are some really good players on EP there as well, problem is you can't really make a dent in the campaign with individual skilled players, but if some of those could rally the pugs and go 50/50 instead you would definitely be able to gain ground, especially outside prime time as the DC population is also really "bad" then.

Dunno if you saw, but yesterday about 20 bananas flipped all emp keeps save for Chal.. DC pugs didn't even go to defend until we had only one keep left. Imo the only reason we're winning is because no one on the other side is taking keeps behind our back, not that DC is more skilled or anything.

No I have missed the last week visiting inlaws over easter

Wasn't too bothered with all the lag when you entered any kind of combat on my character anyway.

Before TU we always tried to push as hard as possible before 2pm GMT (when your lot showed up) as we new it would be a big uphill battle after that. Even the occasional nightshift...but you caught onto that one and followed suit lol.

Anyway...that 20players midday is pretty much it ..if we new where the hell the other pugs were we would give them a clout around the ear

..probably pve'ing...that's what we are trying to find out.

Thanks for the heads up.
Hopefully see you on the field

...server willing

Keron · April 2015

Sharee wrote: »

Keron wrote: »

True as long as population is in a healthy proportion. If you have 10 PvEers for every single PvPer, it's unhealthy.

Do the PvE'rs have some sort of union going that decides for them where to move en-masse?

Because otherwise i don't see how there could be 10 PvErs for every single PvPer on EU azura EP side, but not anywhere else. That would be a minor statistical miracle.

Come on, it's beneath you to have a discussion on this level, @Sharee. These numbers were given to illustrate a concept in reply to DisgracefulMinds post, not as an accurate representation of Azura's state. It was also neither said nor implied to be factual numbers.

Samadhi · April 2015

Remove all incentive to capture or hold keeps; perhaps make all the default keeps unflippable.
Have Cyrodiil run entirely as an open world PvP zone with all points generated by killing enemy players only.
Keep the PvE content to provide hotspots for people to fight at.

Siliconhobbit_ESO · April 2015

No.

I'll tell you why.

PvE inside of PvP JUST for the sake of PvE, is, I'll admit, Useless.

Dynamic, useful, engaging PvE that Enhances the already existing PvP system is what's needed.

Do I want to go out and grind 10 quests at PvE quest hubs, that provide me with NO OTHER use other then an achievement? No.

Do I want to go out and attempt to gain the FAVOR of the local peasants, farmers, bandits, Giants and what-not so they might assist in a siege of a keep, help take a resource, or defend a keep? Yes!

You have to understand that any landscape that encompasses any war of any sort is not limited to the primary combatants alone. War affects everything that lives in it's environment, and that goes double for a fantasy environment.

Giants, mammoths, trolls, peasants, farmers, travellers, and other NON-HUMAN creatures live and dwell within Tamriel. It's a given that if a war breaks out, many if not ALLof the lands inhabitants, sentient or not, will be affected.

Some of those inhabitants will be relatively useless to the overall scope of the war. A deer grazing in a field an approaching 'horde' is about to cross is not going to be able to do anything to or for that horde no matter what happens.

A Giant encampment in the hills nearby however, could have a SIGNIFICANT impact on the outcomes of a war, or even the outcome of a single engagement. These giants may not want to be involved, but perhaps there is something we could do to GETthem involved...

The same could be said for a group of Bandits, or a small hamlet of farmers and merchants.

I realize that many of you just want to fight another human, that you find that challenging enough, and that any other distractions within the field of battle is just that, a distraction and a waste of time. I realize that these things can also become a burden for those who ONLY want to PvP other humans. When other players are taking up valuable 'cap' space and not utilizing said space to YOUR approval, then it suddenly becomes a burden for you.

It would go a long way if the PvE system was more useful to the actual WAR raging around us in Cyrodiil. The new Cold Harbor siege equipment is only one TINY step in that right direction. This needs to be followed up now with more dynamic events that players can participate in and in turn the 'rewards' of those events are actually PART of the overall war effort.

Keron · April 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

Remove all incentive to capture or hold keeps; perhaps make all the default keeps unflippable.
Have Cyrodiil run entirely as an open world PvP zone with all points generated by killing enemy players only.
Keep the PvE content to provide hotspots for people to fight at.

This is an alternative option (called Alterac Valley in WoW, at least at the time I played it), that while not being in line with the PvP promised to be in this game at least would be consistent. I would not play such a game but if you'd look for something like this, it could work.

Fact remains, what we have right now is a mix that actively inhibits the development of a consistent PvP system.

Sharee · April 2015

[edit] nevermind.

pppontus · April 2015

I found your population

+ about 25 more who are already out of my view distance
+ about 15-20 down the hill to the left

you wanna know what they're all chasing?

2 frickin' people... I had them do the same to me earlier.. seriously just by stealthing and rolling I can get 50+ people to chase me whereever I want.. no playing the objectives here. xD

glak · April 2015

Keron wrote: »

I changed my mind. Since you are so adamant that the pop indicators are correct, the only explanation left is that half to three quarters of the population playing on EP Azura EU is doing dolmens or ERPing in some far out corner. Get rid of them. Remove any and all PvE content from Cyrodiil that may interest a PvE player in coming to that map for any purpose other than PvP. Also, remove all Skill Points from alliance ranks and make all Alliance Warfare skills only work in Cyrodiil. Remove all Skyshards, Quests, Delves, Dolmens, Achievements, Stories, POIs or whatever has nothing to do with the purpose of this map (and that I hope is PvP).

Alternatively and preferrable from my point of view is kick and ban every player that does not attack an opposing faction player within 15 minutes. That would also get rid of those just idling in keeps for dee ticks.

Yes, I'm slightly miffed at the game right now, but this opinion stands irrespective of my mental state. Do something.

PvE Cyrodiil instance would fix that in a heartbeat.

tinythinker · April 2015

I like the more complete game world with the PvE elements in Cyrodiil and the challenge of completing that content in the PvP zone. Two of my characters, one a captain and one close to being, have 100% completion for Cyrodiil. I like the idea of risk/reward and I appreciate having the options afforded by more content. Players who only want PvE completions don't tend to stay long, they get what they came for and leave.

Population imbalance between factions, players who only want to farm AP or get into quick/easy battles, etc, are bigger factors in the overall ineffectiveness of an Alliance when it comes to strategic play. But you can't make people join a particular faction or fight other players when or where you want them to. If 30 people want to fight at a gate or bridge they will, even if it doesn't help to take or hold something that might help their Alliance get/keep Emp or steal/defend a scroll. If 10 players want to chase a bolting Sorc rather than repair a wall they will. They have the choice to do what they find to be the most fun and rewarding activity at whatever that may be. Taking away a fun element that makes Cyrodiil feel more like a lived in place that is connected to the larger events affecting Nirn won't change that. Giving players more reason to care about/enjoy the strategic aspect might.

As for expanding and elaborating on content, I like the idea of making PvE count more for PvP, which we are starting to see with AP buffs for defeating cave bosses and getting special siege equipment for closing dark anchors. Maybe there will be more such tie-ins. But there is also the reverse, with PvP affecting PvE. This incentivizes helping with PvP. Existing examples are fast travel to keeps and outposts near caves and quest sites and the fact that Alliance soldiers from whichever faction controls a nearby stronhhold patrol some of the quest hubs, and more benefits of other type and scope, direct and indirect, could be added.

newtinmpls · April 2015

I had said

newtinmpls wrote: »

I do really think that this is kind of a problem with ESO.

PvPers are "forced" to PvE which they don't want, in order to get to the stuff they do.

PvEers go through a lovely and deailed series of quests - and their "reward" is something they don't like.

I wish for another .... option.

Is there a way to have exciting battle-y stuff that either combines or surpasses both of these choices? I admit, looking at the intro video, I never pictured a grind of repeatable "kill other PC" quests. I pictured working with folks from other races/cultures to fight a common enemy.

But even the dolmens (according to recent discussions) are places to plan ambushes - not places to fight Oblivion-spawn.

Shadow replied:

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Cyrodill is a mainly PvP zone for the players who exclusively PvP, I am a hybrid player, I do both PvE and PvP, but imo, its a lot better testing your skills against real people than the AI of PvE style hostiles, PvP is dynamic, and its, again, imo, way more intense than fighting in PvE, either ganking, being in a bomb squad, or a full group, leading, co ordinating with others for your alliance, and a lot more.

And also, PvP was promoted along with the main game, so there was no secret regarding it.

You make two really good points here.

To the point of PvP being a better skill test than ... well P v AI is really what's happening in PvE. I agree. I do some martial arts and doing full contact practice (yes, we do wear the 'armor' as appropriate) is much much better than just shared katas or anything like that.

To that end, I really do wish there was a 'dueling' option in the PvE area - do something that was the equivalent of "throwing a gauntlet" and then have a 1 on 1 fight (mabye even with seconds to step in). Heck I still love "3 musketeers" and if we had to duel fast to avoid getting in trouble with the guard it would be even cooler.

Second point "PvP was promoted along with the main game"

There are really to parts to this; one is the general PvP idea, which (if I recall correctly) was promoted along the idea of join one alliance and fight against the others - this is a LOT different from "try to get to a dolmen/skyshard in Cyrodiil any time past 10th level and get ambushed by *ssh*le V14 players who mop you up in 5 seconds, then take another 10 min to get back to where you were going (if you can get there at all)".

In no way does "get ambushed by jerks" resemble the heroic battles that were promised.

But then, any "public" situation is going to include a certain amount of jerk-age. It's the nature of the beast - I just don't care to defend anyone's right to it.

Samadhi · April 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

I had said

newtinmpls wrote: »

I do really think that this is kind of a problem with ESO.

PvPers are "forced" to PvE which they don't want, in order to get to the stuff they do.

PvEers go through a lovely and deailed series of quests - and their "reward" is something they don't like.

I wish for another .... option.

Is there a way to have exciting battle-y stuff that either combines or surpasses both of these choices? I admit, looking at the intro video, I never pictured a grind of repeatable "kill other PC" quests. I pictured working with folks from other races/cultures to fight a common enemy.

But even the dolmens (according to recent discussions) are places to plan ambushes - not places to fight Oblivion-spawn.

Shadow replied:

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Cyrodill is a mainly PvP zone for the players who exclusively PvP, I am a hybrid player, I do both PvE and PvP, but imo, its a lot better testing your skills against real people than the AI of PvE style hostiles, PvP is dynamic, and its, again, imo, way more intense than fighting in PvE, either ganking, being in a bomb squad, or a full group, leading, co ordinating with others for your alliance, and a lot more.

And also, PvP was promoted along with the main game, so there was no secret regarding it.

You make two really good points here.

To the point of PvP being a better skill test than ... well P v AI is really what's happening in PvE. I agree. I do some martial arts and doing full contact practice (yes, we do wear the 'armor' as appropriate) is much much better than just shared katas or anything like that.

To that end, I really do wish there was a 'dueling' option in the PvE area - do something that was the equivalent of "throwing a gauntlet" and then have a 1 on 1 fight (mabye even with seconds to step in). Heck I still love "3 musketeers" and if we had to duel fast to avoid getting in trouble with the guard it would be even cooler.
...

A dueling feature with a universal toggle so that people who are opposed to it need not participate would do loads to improve this game for me.

golfer.dub17_ESO · April 2015

People complain there's no small scale PvP, no duels.
Yet they also state that towns are a place where questers constantly get ganked by a few people.

Isn't the solution obvious?

I think PvE in Cyrodiil is good because it does break up the zerg from time to time.

newtinmpls · April 2015

golfer.dub17_ESO wrote: »

People complain there's no small scale PvP, no duels.
Yet they also state that towns are a place where questers constantly get ganked by a few people.

Isn't the solution obvious?

I think PvE in Cyrodiil is good because it does break up the zerg from time to time.

not enough coffee on board because I don't really get what you just said.

If you mean ambushing PvE'ers is a nice break from zerging for PvP'ers .... well it might be, but it sucks from the receiving end.

Dru1076 · April 2015

As an EP player on Azuras star EU, and one who prefers PVE for many reasons, I gotta say I wont be stopping just because of this thread. I always try to take part if I see a keep or resource being attacked, but lately there hasn't been any.

Fact is, my character is VR4, so I can't really take on the NPC guards unless its one on one, let alone another real player. I would love it if there was a PVE campaign for those who want to do the PVE elements in Cyrodil...but it will be a while before I can afford to buy my way out of Azuras star anyway. But if there was one, I'd rather be there instead.

SHADOW2KK · April 2015

Dru1076 wrote: »

As an EP player on Azuras star EU, and one who prefers PVE for many reasons, I gotta say I wont be stopping just because of this thread. I always try to take part if I see a keep or resource being attacked, but lately there hasn't been any.

Fact is, my character is VR4, so I can't really take on the NPC guards unless its one on one, let alone another real player. I would love it if there was a PVE campaign for those who want to do the PVE elements in Cyrodil...but it will be a while before I can afford to buy my way out of Azuras star anyway. But if there was one, I'd rather be there instead.

Good on you, respects:}

Just have to mention though, just cos your are vr4, does not mean you cant kill anyone, even vr14s are possible to kill, my NB was vr 2/6, round about there, and I managed to kill 1v1 some vr14s, by a bit of luck and that.
So do not think you cant take out enemy players, of any vet level, ofc, its a lot harder taking out skilled opponents who have a decent build and good allocation of CP`s but it can be done.

Buying your way out of a campaign is not that much, and you can play on any campaign, AP is AP, travel to player or play on a guest campaign is 2 of the other ways you can access other campaigns, you wont be ranked on LB though, but tbh I don`t care about leaderboards anymore and have not for a long time.

SHADOW2KK · April 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

I had said

newtinmpls wrote: »

I do really think that this is kind of a problem with ESO.

PvPers are "forced" to PvE which they don't want, in order to get to the stuff they do.

PvEers go through a lovely and deailed series of quests - and their "reward" is something they don't like.

I wish for another .... option.

Is there a way to have exciting battle-y stuff that either combines or surpasses both of these choices? I admit, looking at the intro video, I never pictured a grind of repeatable "kill other PC" quests. I pictured working with folks from other races/cultures to fight a common enemy.

But even the dolmens (according to recent discussions) are places to plan ambushes - not places to fight Oblivion-spawn.

Shadow replied:

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Cyrodill is a mainly PvP zone for the players who exclusively PvP, I am a hybrid player, I do both PvE and PvP, but imo, its a lot better testing your skills against real people than the AI of PvE style hostiles, PvP is dynamic, and its, again, imo, way more intense than fighting in PvE, either ganking, being in a bomb squad, or a full group, leading, co ordinating with others for your alliance, and a lot more.

And also, PvP was promoted along with the main game, so there was no secret regarding it.

You make two really good points here.

To the point of PvP being a better skill test than ... well P v AI is really what's happening in PvE. I agree. I do some martial arts and doing full contact practice (yes, we do wear the 'armor' as appropriate) is much much better than just shared katas or anything like that.

To that end, I really do wish there was a 'dueling' option in the PvE area - do something that was the equivalent of "throwing a gauntlet" and then have a 1 on 1 fight (mabye even with seconds to step in). Heck I still love "3 musketeers" and if we had to duel fast to avoid getting in trouble with the guard it would be even cooler.

Second point "PvP was promoted along with the main game"

There are really to parts to this; one is the general PvP idea, which (if I recall correctly) was promoted along the idea of join one alliance and fight against the others - this is a LOT different from "try to get to a dolmen/skyshard in Cyrodiil any time past 10th level and get ambushed by *ssh*le V14 players who mop you up in 5 seconds, then take another 10 min to get back to where you were going (if you can get there at all)".

In no way does "get ambushed by jerks" resemble the heroic battles that were promised.

But then, any "public" situation is going to include a certain amount of jerk-age. It's the nature of the beast - I just don't care to defend anyone's right to it.

Sorry mate, just saw your reply.

Ahhh nice one, you are bang on right with what you said about martial arts training for full contact, I done a lot of martial arts training as well, and done many a full contact session, and you are completely right about full contact practice being way better for combat than katas, for many reasons, mainly because its as close to the real thing as you can get, and its a lot more intense than doing katas.
Katas are brilliant for muscle memory, but arrgh going off topic haha.

Duelling would be excellent in PvE, I really would love that as well.

Your second point is bang on too, I can appreciate how frustrating it is to be ganked and take ages to travel to where you were before, knowing that the git is probably still about hehe.

But being ambushed is part of the game, the range of combat goes from 1v1, skirmishing to the heroic yet incredibly laggy battles we have now.

I normally do not go to PvE quest areas in Cyrodill, only when I am heading to DC or something on combat operations, and if i see any hostiles in the area, I will kill them or have them killed, for reasons including they are the enemy, and AP, and also if I wanna hit DC and there are a few reds at say Bruma, then I want them dead.
I do not know nor care at the time if they are RP, or doing quests or w/e, I am simply securing the area, before hitting DC.

But I am sure there are others who will deliberately camp PvE quest areas to get cheap AP, and although I can understand, its not how I personally roll.