What exactly factors in the Leaderboard points?

xherics · April 2015

Zapzarap wrote: »

I have to agree with @xherics. Sorry if I am blind but I cant see the problem by giving us the exact equations... malicious gossip are saying that either even the developers are unable to understand what they have programmed or it's just a random generated bugged number
Seriously? What do you think are we going to do with an exact equation? programing our own MMO and implement a leaderboard ? Would be a funny idea but a game, just with a leaderboard... I guess no one is going to play it We just want to understand how it works and if its a waste of time to go one in the trial or not.
Its like we already said... you created a leaderboard for a competition in End-Game and no one knows how it works... With a leaderboard like this its better to have no leaderboard at all.

As I said before

xherics wrote: »

It can be easily possible, that the Developer group also do not know, how does the Point system work, because it is somehow bugged and this is the reason, why they do not want to share full-detailed information; and they are thinking, what to share I would not be surprised

Now, I am pretty sure, that nobody knows the exact formula

My opinion is, that there is no reason to not share how the point system works. As we so many time said, without the explanation, there is no competition.

Really, I do not know, why do I still play this game. No content, just 3 Trial dungeons with arena - same content in a circle for half year already. After 1.6 release and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom statement, there is NO competition in leaderboards...
Developers are not listening to the players community, neither for the hard core players, neither for players, who actually did a good performance in this game...
The game has even more and more and more bugs... and do not mention, that still an extremely amount of old bugs presents in the game...
Balance between classes? Never... In PvE: DK all the time OP. NB can catch up a bit and do similar performance. Sorcerer is the lowest class. Templar is now pretty good, but it is still a main heal class... and because of the last update, there are almost no healers in the game, because all of them want to perform DPS...

I was not able to play for a week now because of work and I realized today, that I really do not miss the game and I already do not feel that I want to play this game. I miss only my friends from the world, with who I played for a year.

xMovingTarget · April 2015

Hmm. Pretty much underwhelming.

Varicite · April 2015

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

So I guess people do not want to use their minds to figure this out.

Of course we will, but I'm sure that people were hoping for a little transparency on the part of the devs for once.

xherics · April 2015

Varicite wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

So I guess people do not want to use their minds to figure this out.

Of course we will, but I'm sure that people were hoping for a little transparency on the part of the devs for once.

We compared already more than 50 Veteran DSA runs and we saw only one thing, what makes big difference: Completition TIME.

But nobody knows, how the other points are processed. So many random things in the background.
Seems, the point system is somehow RNG or bugged, you can see so many examples in this thread.

We had also a situation, that 2 runs, same amount of deaths and only 1 min less time for the second run: points with 1k difference, and ETC random situations.
We are thinking, that bonus points can be given for single target killing, so groups with much AOE have less points, or for example if mobs die first or boss in boss fights, or extra bonus points for a no death run (not only time bonus) and much more conditions... But the biggest problem is, that the points given seems to be RNG somehow.

Rune_Relic · April 2015

Varicite wrote: »

I'm curious why it is that you don't want players to know the math behind leaderboard scoring?

Do you feel that players might be able to "game" the system for higher scores?

Agreed.
What you are saying is [exactly with combat equations] come and play this game....but we aren't going to tell you the rules.
You have to guess.

Now I am sure some people no doubt would enjoy such a game.
But it means some people guess at the rules better than others, rather than everyone "knowing" [fairly and equally] exactly what they need to do and when.
What you get is the number crunchers with simulations making better estimates than others and winning.
At the moment modellers and min/maxers win [but its opaque].
You give the numbers and min/maxers win [but its transparent].
I really don't think clarity on game rules is optional for any game.

I seriously wonder if ZOS is trolling the players in some sick way.

Varicite · April 2015

xherics wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

So I guess people do not want to use their minds to figure this out.

Of course we will, but I'm sure that people were hoping for a little transparency on the part of the devs for once.

We compared already more than 50 Veteran DSA runs and we saw only one thing, what makes big difference: Completition TIME.

But nobody knows, how the other points are processed. So many random things in the background.
Seems, the point system is somehow RNG or bugged, you can see so many examples in this thread.

We had also a situation, that 2 runs, same amount of deaths and only 1 min less time for the second run: points with 1k difference, and ETC random situations.
We are thinking, that bonus points can be given for single target killing, so groups with much AOE have less points, or for example if mobs die first or boss in boss fights, or extra bonus points for a no death run (not only time bonus) and much more conditions... But the biggest problem is, that the points given seems to be RNG somehow.

Oh, I understand, I've been following the conversation.

I just think it's a bit asinine for them to withhold the math behind the scoring, especially in a game that is pretty much known for being buggy.

I think back on the past year and how many bugs the community has brought to the devs attention through the use of addons and math that brought otherwise unknown mechanics to light, and see this response, and wonder what they're thinking. Do they honestly expect us to just trust that their formulas are even working correctly when I can think of at least 5 bugs off the top of my head that were introduced in the last few updates that the devs can't even seem to acknowledge?

I'd like to know WHY they don't feel that the community needs to know exactly how they are being scored.

Nifty2g · April 2015

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

So I guess people do not want to use their minds to figure this out.

We all know how it works, it's all time based, come on now, nothing else factors into it. I ran about 5 DSA today, all within about 30 seconds or a minute faster than each other, they all got 9k scores, they were all 59 - 61 minute clears

59 was my 9519 score

HyperToxic · April 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Zapzarap wrote: »

Hey,
This post from you is now more than one week old. Do you have some new news with what you are "comfortable" or are you just waiting that this discussion will be forgotten

Thanks for resurfacing this, Zap. Honestly, just got a sidetracked. My apologies!

After discussing internally and looking over the numbers and formulas that determine overall Trials and Dragonstar Arena completion scores, we're sticking with the information we released in the associated patch notes. We do try to be as transparent as possible, while at the same time not giving away everything (such as behind-the-scenes mathematical formulas.) Sometimes it's all or nothing situation. The Trials and Dragonstar Arena completion score calculations is one such case. It isn't feasible to share only some numbers without sharing all of them along with the full behind-the-scenes formulas. The info we released in the past is as follows:
We have changed the way in which we calculate and present leaderboards within Trials and Dragonstar Arena, and are now using a point-based system. Due to this change, we will be resetting all Trial leaderboards.

We have reduced the penalty for losing lives within the Trial or Arena. It still matters, but not nearly as much as it did previously.

There are several things that award points within Trials and Dragonstar Arena. The breakdown is as follows:
Monsters: Each monster within a Trial (with few exceptions) will award points when they are killed. The point total varies based on the difficulty of the monster, though you will want to kill all of the monsters within a Trial to get all of the points.

Difficult Mode: Boss fights within Trials on difficult mode will give a very large chunk of points. You will most likely want to run difficult mode as the points awarded for this can tip the scales directly in your favor.

Arena Completion: Each arena within Dragonstar Arena is worth a certain amount of points.

After all the points are achieved within a Trial or Dragonstar Arena, you will be awarded a point bonus based on completion time.

Your leaderboard score will include your points plus your time bonus.

I'm disappointed. The previous system was not a mystery. And what is with all the zeros anyway - does anyone have a clue?

Ley · April 2015

Kill the most monsters, on the highest difficulty, faster than anyone else = win.

You guys seriously complaining that they didn't give you a precise mathematical equation that you could then take and exploit to maximize your score?

Nifty2g · April 2015

Ley wrote: »

Kill the most monsters, on the highest difficulty, faster than anyone else = win.

You guys seriously complaining that they didn't give you a precise mathematical equation that you could then take and exploit to maximize your score?

Complaining how shallow the system is, they took away the death penalty and made it purely based on speed.

F7sus4 · April 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, just wanted to let you know we've seen this thread and others like it and are currently discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out. We do want to help clear up confusion, but also don't want to reveal all the behind-the-scenes formulas and numbers.

Pardon me?! How fair is it to play the game without knowing the rules?

DschiPeunt · April 2015

Ley wrote: »

Kill the most monsters, on the highest difficulty, faster than anyone else = win.

You guys seriously complaining that they didn't give you a precise mathematical equation that you could then take and exploit to maximize your score?

Nobody wants to "exploit" a mathematical equation. But there are actually some people who want to get to the top of the leaderboards. Nobody questions that a 10 minute no-death AA Hardmode run would give quite a good score, but with the current system, you don't have a clue how well (or bad) other groups performed. You just run in there and hope for the best, but you only get a real score at the end.

Imagine Olympic games, but they don't tell anybody how far the current leader jumped. They would just give out a score that appears to be random and could be based on the weather conditions in South America. Nobody would consider that a real challenge or a fair and intelligent system.

Dunkmeister · April 2015

I agree this is ridiculous.

Arena is designed to be a competitive part of the game. We cannot legitimately compete if I don't know all the rules. Imagine being told to play in a sport but not taught what the penalties are or how the scoring works. Come on, guys. You know this is ridiculous. Either remove the leaderboards until you announce the rules/penalties or give us the details.

Dunk

xherics · April 2015

Imagine you are playing football without rules. One time the goal is accepted, one time no; and there is no reason why not.

This is the same and exact situation.

SirEwan · April 2015

No competition if we do not know how to actually compete.
Is how I would sum this up.

Zapzarap · April 2015

It's just a pain in the ass... The whole PVE is now F** up with this damned leaderboard... With the old one it was funny you knew what you have to do... And at least there was some "good" loot... now the leaderboard is buggy (if not the score is buggy, at least all this "0" in the table are buggy...), there is no good loot and no one is happy with it... Ok, sorry: No endgame players are happy with it...
I can't understand how ZOS is ignoring that... Maybe they think "oh well, there is no 13$ per month fee so I dont care if players are leaving or not. The servers are lagging anyway like hell and we got the one time money from them... so let them leave". I can really imagine a manager saying this...

Nifty2g · April 2015

feel free to offer feedback in thus http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162773/raiding-needs-to-be-fixed#latest

Jules · April 2015

Vahrokh wrote: »

If they will give exact formulas then people SHALL min max over them.

Complete ignorance about how points are calculated is useful to avoid pre patch 1.6 situation, where less than awesome classes and specs would be left out.

Omg people are going to min max anyway- THATS WHAT WE ENJOY. That doesn't mean that people who are less than ideal will be automatically isolated. That means that groups that actually care will be able to IMPROVE because and will be able to recognize their shortcomings.

Do we just eliminate deaths? Do we continue to skip this trash, or is it more beneficial to clear it? What is weighted more heavily: speed, deaths, clearing the entire instance? Should we stop to do optional achieves on the way?
Just a short list of the unknown factors in leaderboard scoring ^

I can't definitively speak for all, but I'm pretty sure most end-game raiding guilds (the ones left) are constantly reevaluating their strats, their builds, pushing themselves as individuals and as a team to be better. This system cuts us off at the knees and doesn't allow us to identify our weaknesses because the point scoring algorithm is A MYSTERY. We don't know what we're working toward and it's incredibly frustrating.

Zapzarap · April 2015

Thats right... the leaderboard is there to give a challenge to the best guilds... but there are so few left that nearly everyone who finds a proper group can find a place on it... Just an other big fail design from zenimax.
If you want the game to be casual: remove the leaderboard because the casual players don't care anyway...
If you want to make a challenge for the "end-game progress" guilds make clear HOW it works and dont give us an answer "copy paste" from the patch notes...

Garkin · April 2015

It seems that DSA scoring is just simple how many seconds you have left to 2 hours limit * coefficient 2.05 + earned points from finishing stages.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/164950/veteran-dragonstar-arena-scoring-is-worse-than-before-update-6

Zapzarap · April 2015

@garkin Realy nice! Now it's clear why we just got a *** answer like this:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Zapzarap wrote: »

Hey,
This post from you is now more than one week old. Do you have some new news with what you are "comfortable" or are you just waiting that this discussion will be forgotten

Thanks for resurfacing this, Zap. Honestly, just got a sidetracked. My apologies!

After discussing internally and looking over the numbers and formulas that determine overall Trials and Dragonstar Arena completion scores, we're sticking with the information we released in the associated patch notes. We do try to be as transparent as possible, while at the same time not giving away everything (such as behind-the-scenes mathematical formulas.) Sometimes it's all or nothing situation. The Trials and Dragonstar Arena completion score calculations is one such case. It isn't feasible to share only some numbers without sharing all of them along with the full behind-the-scenes formulas. The info we released in the past is as follows:
We have changed the way in which we calculate and present leaderboards within Trials and Dragonstar Arena, and are now using a point-based system. Due to this change, we will be resetting all Trial leaderboards.

We have reduced the penalty for losing lives within the Trial or Arena. It still matters, but not nearly as much as it did previously.

There are several things that award points within Trials and Dragonstar Arena. The breakdown is as follows:
Monsters: Each monster within a Trial (with few exceptions) will award points when they are killed. The point total varies based on the difficulty of the monster, though you will want to kill all of the monsters within a Trial to get all of the points.

Difficult Mode: Boss fights within Trials on difficult mode will give a very large chunk of points. You will most likely want to run difficult mode as the points awarded for this can tip the scales directly in your favor.

Arena Completion: Each arena within Dragonstar Arena is worth a certain amount of points.

After all the points are achieved within a Trial or Dragonstar Arena, you will be awarded a point bonus based on completion time.

Your leaderboard score will include your points plus your time bonus.

Ey, I just found some more things in here:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

[*] We have changed the way in which we calculate and present leaderboards within Trials and Dragonstar Arena, and are now using a point-based system. Due to this change, we will be resetting all Trial leaderboards.

WRONG! You just reset the buggy "0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0" scores of the leaderboard... There is still a freaking huge number on top that tells you "Best Score: 11789281" (in my case in Sanctum^^)

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

[*] We have reduced the penalty for losing lives within the Trial or Arena. It still matters, but not nearly as much as it did previously.

Either the equation from @Garkin is wrong you the developers doesn't know their own equations^^ Hard decision... But I think I believe @garkin more

xMovingTarget · April 2015

Thanks again @garkin and also @Saturn

Jules · April 2015

Zapzarap wrote: »

WRONG! You just reset the buggy "0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0" scores of the leaderboard... There is still a freaking huge number on top that tells you "Best Score: 11789281" (in my case in Sanctum^^)

I'm glad (well not actually glad) that someone else has this happen. This is why no one ever gets/gives notifications anymore. To some people, this is preferred. But to the people who work hard to make leaderboards, this is just one more craptastic aspect that makes it entirely not worth it.