What exactly factors in the Leaderboard points?

General_Kefka

Man them leaderboards....so frustrated i can't beat the #1 spots argh!

Do you even HARDMODE bro?

xherics

It can be easily possible, that the Developer group also do not know, how does the Point system work, because it is somehow bugged and this is the reason, why they do not want to share full-detailed information; and they are thinking, what to share I would not be surprised

Zapzarap

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, just wanted to let you know we've seen this thread and others like it and are currently discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out. We do want to help clear up confusion, but also don't want to reveal all the behind-the-scenes formulas and numbers. We hope to have something for you in the next few days.

Hey,
This post from you is now more than one week old. Do you have some new news with what you are "comfortable" or are you just waiting that this discussion will be forgotten

Saturn

As far as I know Time is the most valuable factor and of course you also want to kill everything. Deaths make a very small difference, too small a difference to be honest.

Yesterday I completed Veteran Dragonstar Arena in 1 hour and 1 minute, with 11 deaths. This gave my team a score of 9290 points.
Last week I did a run of VDSA that took 1 hour 18 minutes, with 20 deaths. This gave my team a score of 7180.

Completing all stages of VDSA total in 2000 points for all the boss kills. The enemies in the stages do not give points, only the bosses (200 per stage). After that your time score will be added to that and then your deaths will be subtracted from the score.

Time, kills and deaths are the only factors in VDSA and Trials as far as I know. Unfortunately it is not very obvious how much either is worth, except for kill score.

Garkin

Saturn wrote: »

As far as I know Time is the most valuable factor and of course you also want to kill everything. Deaths make a very small difference, too small a difference to be honest.

Yesterday I completed Veteran Dragonstar Arena in 1 hour and 1 minute, with 11 deaths. This gave my team a score of 9290 points.
Last week I did a run of VDSA that took 1 hour 18 minutes, with 20 deaths. This gave my team a score of 7180.

Completing all stages of VDSA total in 2000 points for all the boss kills. The enemies in the stages do not give points, only the bosses (200 per stage). After that your time score will be added to that and then your deaths will be subtracted from the score.

Time, kills and deaths are the only factors in VDSA and Trials as far as I know. Unfortunately it is not very obvious how much either is worth, except for kill score.

Each stage is 200 points with reason RAID_POINT_REASON_BONUS_ACTIVITY_MEDIUM. Killing the last boss gives another 50 points wth reason RAID_POINT_REASON_KILL_BANNERMEN. So you will get 2050 points in total. Everything else (probably) depends on time and number of deaths.

If you don't make DSA within 2 hours, you will always get 20 points. I believe it is 2050 / 100, because with AA it is 7300 / 100 = 73 (time limit for AA seems to be 30 minutes).

My DSA scores:
Time 1:33:03 with 73 remaining lives gives 5364 points
Time 1:33:59 with 80 remaining lives gives 5249 points


Time, score and reasons were displayed by Raid Timer Continued with enabled debug output.

Saturn

@Garkin

Ah yes I just rewatched my videos and it is 2050. It'd be nice to find out how big a point difference deaths actually make, because looking at your two scores makes it seem like the 56 seconds faster time almost doesn't have points subtracted from the 7 deaths.

The healer on the 9290 point run I tanked is pretty annoyed by this, because his team is fighting with another group for the top spot, but because that other group is always faster even with more deaths than his they win. Before the switchover in 1.6 this guy was always in the nr. 1 spot because his groups would consistently do a no death run, while being fast.

The point score is a better system in my opinion as it makes the "timed run" achievements in trials less annoying to get, but deaths need to factor more into the actual score. Otherwise you just encourage marathon sprints over skillful runs.

Mantic0r3

i found that 8min equal about 1k points and deaths about 50

1h15min with 93 lives was about 7.6k (so aroun 8k without deaths)
1h23min with 92 lives was about 6.5k (so around 7k)

if i take the 1h 1min with 11 deaths someone posted it would be 14min faster, meaning + 1.8k and with +3 deaths so -150 overall +1650 . 7.6k+1650 ~ 9300

basicly i think 1h run without deaths= 10k
for every minute slower -125
for every death -50

DrHarper

I am really confused with this new leaderboard bulls**t...
I did dsa with my static group last week.
0 death. 1 hour and 6 minutes. We got roughly 8600 points
After that we did dsa with 8 deaths. 1 hour and 3 minutes and got 9043 points...Soooo we got 443 more points for just 3 mins?
Why i am need to zerg and aoe everything i see on arena, instead of coming up with interesting tactics for no deaths run to get on TOP 10?
When we go in with my group we just aoe bosses and mobs and run to the next arena. Even if someone dies - we usually don't really care, since it has close to no impact on your score as long as you do it in 50-60 mins.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Zapzarap wrote: »

Hey,
This post from you is now more than one week old. Do you have some new news with what you are "comfortable" or are you just waiting that this discussion will be forgotten

Thanks for resurfacing this, Zap. Honestly, just got a sidetracked. My apologies!

After discussing internally and looking over the numbers and formulas that determine overall Trials and Dragonstar Arena completion scores, we're sticking with the information we released in the associated patch notes. We do try to be as transparent as possible, while at the same time not giving away everything (such as behind-the-scenes mathematical formulas.) Sometimes it's all or nothing situation. The Trials and Dragonstar Arena completion score calculations is one such case. It isn't feasible to share only some numbers without sharing all of them along with the full behind-the-scenes formulas. The info we released in the past is as follows:

• We have changed the way in which we calculate and present leaderboards within Trials and Dragonstar Arena, and are now using a point-based system. Due to this change, we will be resetting all Trial leaderboards.
• We have reduced the penalty for losing lives within the Trial or Arena. It still matters, but not nearly as much as it did previously.
• There are several things that award points within Trials and Dragonstar Arena. The breakdown is as follows:
  • Monsters: Each monster within a Trial (with few exceptions) will award points when they are killed. The point total varies based on the difficulty of the monster, though you will want to kill all of the monsters within a Trial to get all of the points.
  • Difficult Mode: Boss fights within Trials on difficult mode will give a very large chunk of points. You will most likely want to run difficult mode as the points awarded for this can tip the scales directly in your favor.
  • Arena Completion: Each arena within Dragonstar Arena is worth a certain amount of points.
• After all the points are achieved within a Trial or Dragonstar Arena, you will be awarded a point bonus based on completion time.
• Your leaderboard score will include your points plus your time bonus.

xherics

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Zapzarap wrote: »

Hey,
This post from you is now more than one week old. Do you have some new news with what you are "comfortable" or are you just waiting that this discussion will be forgotten

Thanks for resurfacing this, Zap. Honestly, just got a sidetracked. My apologies!

After discussing internally and looking over the numbers and formulas that determine overall Trials and Dragonstar Arena completion scores, we're sticking with the information we released in the associated patch notes. We do try to be as transparent as possible, while at the same time not giving away everything (such as behind-the-scenes mathematical formulas.) Sometimes it's all or nothing situation. The Trials and Dragonstar Arena completion score calculations is one such case. It isn't feasible to share only some numbers without sharing all of them along with the full behind-the-scenes formulas. The info we released in the past is as follows:

• We have changed the way in which we calculate and present leaderboards within Trials and Dragonstar Arena, and are now using a point-based system. Due to this change, we will be resetting all Trial leaderboards.
• We have reduced the penalty for losing lives within the Trial or Arena. It still matters, but not nearly as much as it did previously.
• There are several things that award points within Trials and Dragonstar Arena. The breakdown is as follows:
  • Monsters: Each monster within a Trial (with few exceptions) will award points when they are killed. The point total varies based on the difficulty of the monster, though you will want to kill all of the monsters within a Trial to get all of the points.
  • Difficult Mode: Boss fights within Trials on difficult mode will give a very large chunk of points. You will most likely want to run difficult mode as the points awarded for this can tip the scales directly in your favor.
  • Arena Completion: Each arena within Dragonstar Arena is worth a certain amount of points.
• After all the points are achieved within a Trial or Dragonstar Arena, you will be awarded a point bonus based on completion time.
• Your leaderboard score will include your points plus your time bonus.

So thank you for the nothing and removing the competition from the End Game content.
Disappointment after disappointment during the last months... I got nothing else from this game during a quite long time...

Livvy

Wow, how disappointing.

Zapzarap

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for resurfacing this, Zap. Honestly, just got a sidetracked. My apologies!

After discussing internally and looking over the numbers and formulas that determine overall Trials and Dragonstar Arena completion scores, we're sticking with the information we released in the associated patch notes. We do try to be as transparent as possible, while at the same time not giving away everything (such as behind-the-scenes mathematical formulas.) Sometimes it's all or nothing situation. The Trials and Dragonstar Arena completion score calculations is one such case. It isn't feasible to share only some numbers without sharing all of them along with the full behind-the-scenes formulas. The info we released in the past is as follows:

• We have changed the way in which we calculate and present leaderboards within Trials and Dragonstar Arena, and are now using a point-based system. Due to this change, we will be resetting all Trial leaderboards.
• We have reduced the penalty for losing lives within the Trial or Arena. It still matters, but not nearly as much as it did previously.
• There are several things that award points within Trials and Dragonstar Arena. The breakdown is as follows:
  • Monsters: Each monster within a Trial (with few exceptions) will award points when they are killed. The point total varies based on the difficulty of the monster, though you will want to kill all of the monsters within a Trial to get all of the points.
  • Difficult Mode: Boss fights within Trials on difficult mode will give a very large chunk of points. You will most likely want to run difficult mode as the points awarded for this can tip the scales directly in your favor.
  • Arena Completion: Each arena within Dragonstar Arena is worth a certain amount of points.
• After all the points are achieved within a Trial or Dragonstar Arena, you will be awarded a point bonus based on completion time.
• Your leaderboard score will include your points plus your time bonus.

I have to agree with @xherics. Sorry if I am blind but I cant see the problem by giving us the exact equations... malicious gossip are saying that either even the developers are unable to understand what they have programmed or it's just a random generated bugged number
Seriously? What do you think are we going to do with an exact equation? programing our own MMO and implement a leaderboard ? Would be a funny idea but a game, just with a leaderboard... I guess no one is going to play it We just want to understand how it works and if its a waste of time to go one in the trial or not.
Its like we already said... you created a leaderboard for a competition in End-Game and no one knows how it works... With a leaderboard like this its better to have no leaderboard at all.

Mumnoch

I'm surprised anyone is surprised at this response. If they released the formula's a certain class wouldn't be allowed in any trials that was trying to compete in any role. They are doing this so they don't have to admit to blaring error's on their part. That and that they don't really have any endgame content for this game. That and the female endgame armor is the most prudish I've ever seen for a MMO. That and....well crap there's too many "that and's". Disappointment does sum it up somewhat I guess.

Fissh

I notice the main focus on figuring out points is DSA.
Formulas or not, Large Scale Endgame is dead.
The ONLY loot/xp/cp worth having at max level is DSA/Pledges.
With exception of maybe two-fanged and dreugh slayer. Oh, and the super rare martial you may get in a SO.

Here is the formula you all should be screaming about:
-endgame loot....Trial Loot is garbage post1.6
-endgame CP.....Trial xp post 2.0.3 is only 50k....really?

Endgame is a total joke. Knowing the formula to the point system would do nothing to help us. It only helps the top 10'ers compete with each other. Majority needs the 'formula' to endgame loot/cp to work, minority needs the point formula.
Just some perspective.

Maybe pve endgame loot achievable in pve content. The loot should be comparable to Ravagers, Cryodiil Light, Martial, Morug Tong......all of which is PvP mostly obtained. So BiS gear for PvE is in PvP? Bad formula.

Zapzarap

@Fissh yes. right. But this is something for an other thread^^ You are right, there is nothing in pve (except leaderboard which is a little bit *** at the moment) that keeps you in there... there is no good loot, there is no v14 gear and so on. you are defeating HM in AA, Hel Ra, SO and the loot is still the same crap. There is no need to do Trials, just for your ego to see yourself on the leaderboard Its ***, but thats the way ESO is doing it...

Fissh

Zapzarap wrote: »

@Fissh yes. right. But this is something for an other thread^^ You are right, there is nothing in pve (except leaderboard which is a little bit *** at the moment) that keeps you in there... there is no good loot, there is no v14 gear and so on. you are defeating HM in AA, Hel Ra, SO and the loot is still the same crap. There is no need to do Trials, just for your ego to see yourself on the leaderboard Its ***, but thats the way ESO is doing it...

Far enough

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/159871/eso-endgame-zos-help-us-want-it#latest

Nifty2g

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Zapzarap wrote: »

Hey,
This post from you is now more than one week old. Do you have some new news with what you are "comfortable" or are you just waiting that this discussion will be forgotten

Thanks for resurfacing this, Zap. Honestly, just got a sidetracked. My apologies!

After discussing internally and looking over the numbers and formulas that determine overall Trials and Dragonstar Arena completion scores, we're sticking with the information we released in the associated patch notes. We do try to be as transparent as possible, while at the same time not giving away everything (such as behind-the-scenes mathematical formulas.) Sometimes it's all or nothing situation. The Trials and Dragonstar Arena completion score calculations is one such case. It isn't feasible to share only some numbers without sharing all of them along with the full behind-the-scenes formulas. The info we released in the past is as follows:

• We have changed the way in which we calculate and present leaderboards within Trials and Dragonstar Arena, and are now using a point-based system. Due to this change, we will be resetting all Trial leaderboards.
• We have reduced the penalty for losing lives within the Trial or Arena. It still matters, but not nearly as much as it did previously.
• There are several things that award points within Trials and Dragonstar Arena. The breakdown is as follows:
  • Monsters: Each monster within a Trial (with few exceptions) will award points when they are killed. The point total varies based on the difficulty of the monster, though you will want to kill all of the monsters within a Trial to get all of the points.
  • Difficult Mode: Boss fights within Trials on difficult mode will give a very large chunk of points. You will most likely want to run difficult mode as the points awarded for this can tip the scales directly in your favor.
  • Arena Completion: Each arena within Dragonstar Arena is worth a certain amount of points.
• After all the points are achieved within a Trial or Dragonstar Arena, you will be awarded a point bonus based on completion time.
• Your leaderboard score will include your points plus your time bonus.

correct me if I'm wrong @ZOS_JessicaFolsom but didn't you guys specifically say with the new changes to this point based system it's not all about time, different factors will be involved?

Because that's a load of lies, after testing all this is, is a time race, a dps race you take the 2 best dps you know, a healer and a tank and race through it as fast as you can, and die as much as you want because it takes 5 or 10 points away from your total points. And guess what, there isn't even a no death bonus? You guys should add that in you know, if you want this game to have a little bit of competition to it, right now its just a raid system with no depth to it at all, without a no death completion bonus, there is literally no point doing DSA anymore

I'm quite bitter about this new update and how deaths don't count, I don't recall anyone ever complaining how the death penalty was too much. But sure, lets make it a DPS race so we can all sit around talking about who has the highest DPS and how to get in a run with them to get a good score.

Varicite

I'm curious why it is that you don't want players to know the math behind leaderboard scoring?

Do you feel that players might be able to "game" the system for higher scores?

byrom101b16_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, just wanted to let you know we've seen this thread and others like it and are currently discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out. We do want to help clear up confusion, but also don't want to reveal all the behind-the-scenes formulas and numbers. We hope to have something for you in the next few days.

We have invented a challenge in-game but we don't want to tell you all the rules.

"Gee - is this marathon the usual 26 miles or 28, the organisers won't tell us..."

"Hmmm, this horsey figure, can I move it diagonally 4 spaces or only forward two, sideways one. Shame the rulebook doesn't say..."

Zenimax....

.... Zenimax....

.... I know you have this almost reflexive habit of hiding everything you do from your players, especially just after you change things and force everyone to respec and grind different gear. Did you know it creates a lot of confusion, frustration and flies in the face of common sense?

Have you not been paying attention to what has happened in MMOs since they started?

Trials leader boards are a CONTEST.

YOU made them that way!

In a contest, people have to know the RULES.

UNDERSTAND now?

... because we sure as hell DON'T!

Absolutely. Unbelievable.

byrom101b16_ESO

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, just wanted to let you know we've seen this thread and others like it and are currently discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out. We do want to help clear up confusion, but also don't want to reveal all the behind-the-scenes formulas and numbers. We hope to have something for you in the next few days.

How can you achieve an (designed) objective, if you don't know what the underlying (coded) real objective is ?
Especially if they differ.

This is exactly the same as all the combat calculations that you obscure away to oblivion, so that it takes an age to unravel what really is going on under the bonnet instead of what was supposed to happen.
Only to find design intent and actual effect are completely different.

Can we have transparency please ? Have you tried making a cake without the right ingredients ?

Their publicly stated intent, since day 1, was to make a game where numbers would not be at the foundation of every gameplay choice. Less of an hard core min maxer kingdom and more of an immersive experience. Same reason why they kept a minimalistic UI and same reason why their API is not numbers bean counters friendly.

This also helps hiding classes imbalances in PvE.

"Incompetence Shields to MAXIMUM Dev Engineering!"

"Enemy complainants sensors have failed to successfully penetrate Captain..."

"Excellent. Nerf Canon to full charge. Make sure we get every damn one of them!"

"Aye Sir, those Sorcs. will never know what hit em!"

c0rp

LOL...what is the point of having people compete on a point system and intentionally hiding the details of how said points are earned?

I find this mind boggling.

Nifty2g

c0rp wrote: »

LOL...what is the point of having people compete on a point system and intentionally hiding the details of how said points are earned?

I find this mind boggling.

Because said points are earned by how fast you can do it, that's all there is to it, they want it to seem more complex than it is

I prefer the old system, probably everyone else does too

derpsticks

Personofsecrets

If zos doesn't give out the information then I will get a team dedicated to figuring it out.

Personofsecrets

c0rp wrote: »

LOL...what is the point of having people compete on a point system and intentionally hiding the details of how said points are earned?

I find this mind boggling.

The point is so that people don't find a way to abuse the scoring system The result is confusing, frustratrating, anti-competitive, and anti-fun.

timidobserver

Nifty2g wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

LOL...what is the point of having people compete on a point system and intentionally hiding the details of how said points are earned?

I find this mind boggling.

Because said points are earned by how fast you can do it, that's all there is to it, they want it to seem more complex than it is

I prefer the old system, probably everyone else does too

I would prefer the old system with a bonus for doing Hardmode attached to it.

Personofsecrets

timidobserver wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

LOL...what is the point of having people compete on a point system and intentionally hiding the details of how said points are earned?

I find this mind boggling.

Because said points are earned by how fast you can do it, that's all there is to it, they want it to seem more complex than it is

I prefer the old system, probably everyone else does too

I would prefer the old system with a bonus for doing Hardmode attached to it.

same here. the only issue i have with hardmode is the rng. Random mini mage knock backs and random gargoyle spawning at bad times may test skill to some extent, but injects rng into what used to be very precise runs.

Rammi

One Word: Baffled!!

ssewallb14_ESO

Did I just witness security through obscurity principals used as a game balance strategy? Oh zos, sometimes you entertain me more than the game you make.

Darkonflare15

So I guess people do not want to use their minds to figure this out.