Raiding needs to be fixed

Nifty2g

Please hear me out, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_AlanG @ZOS_TristanK

Prior to update 6, raiding was actually a bit challenging especially going for no death runs right? The newest trial Sanctum Ophidia, many guilds tried over and over again for weeks going for the 33 minute achievement and in the end they finally got it, going for it increased their play style by so much, it is pretty hard to get 12 people to work so well with each other and have a perfect run and get the achievement right? There was a total of 3 groups on the North American Server to get that achievement.

Same goes with Dragonstar Arena, there were 5 teams total on the North American Server who had gotten a "no death" run, and gotten a time of under 70 minutes, I was part of the 8 people in the world to have gotten an under 60 minute run without having a death, that took weeks on end to work on and going in over and over trying to figure out how to do it perfectly. There was only one other team who had gotten under 60 minutes on the European Server. I know this seems pointless to add, but it's giving me meaning to post a thread that is hopefully going to be heard, there is not a lot of high end PvE players on the forums to make a difference so we can see some changes.

So, Zenimax before update 6 had came out, you had said specifically that there are more factors to getting a great point score than just flat out time, this had made everyone excited but after a few testings with this new system, guess what? Time is even more important than it ever was, killing enemies are not really worth it as much as flat out time is, in HRC, AA and SO there are a few enemy packs that is worth skipping than going for the points that you give for killing them. Same in Dragonstar Arena, I can name one right now, people skip the second set of mini bosses that Hiath spawns and burn Hiath 50-0 because that is worth way more points than killing them both and then splitting off for another 30 seconds, you waste about a minute and 20 seconds doing that.

My next point, deaths. WHY on earth have death penalties removed, they only add 50 points or so to your overall score; this is promoting a HORRIBLE play style to everyone in PvE, you can die as much as you want and it doesn't matter. On the third week of the patch being out I got the 33minute Speed Trial for Sanctum Ophidia and I had 40 lives left in my group, what the hell is this? Why is one of the most hardest PvE achievement to get so damn easy now?

Dragonstar arena NEEDS a no death point bonus at the end, because what, the way to get the best time in there is to grab 2 great DPS that you know which would have to be Nightblade Stamina DPS as casters at the moment have no sustain with their magicka and Stamina has been made to destroy everything. There is nothing competitive about this system.

My main point is this Zenimax, you have stripped away EVERYTHING that was challenging and have given raiding such a hollow and simplistic system, no it's not different factors to get a good score, it's purely time based. I have talked to many high raiding big named players and they are all disappointed in this system. As a quick fix to this, you really need to add a more challenging part before you fix up the point system, you need deaths to account to subtracting around 200 or 250 of your total score, because I have a question for you, WHY THE HELL did you remove the 5 minute time removal? Yes it was harsh but it made everything worth it, it made people play better, with such a crappy penalty it gives now I've already said this but it promotes a horrible play style. Also there should be no death completion runs that give you an increased score of about 5,000 or 10,000. Because there are not many people who can do that, and it opens up a whole new challenge for the serious raiders who can challenge each other. I was hoping to have a challenge with the EU guys who had beaten my 58 minute no death dsa run pre update 6, but we can't do that as there is little to no skill involved anymore.

Please, take into consideration of these updates, I will try my best to get the views of other PvE players in this thread. But can we make small changes at once before big ones so we can fix this system up. Deaths highly need to mean more than what they do and we need a no death completion bonus, can you imagine a team beating Hardmode Sanctum Ophidia without having any deaths? Hard to imagine isn't it, but having such a bonus will encourage guilds to try it out.

Valymer

In addition to what you said, having the scoring so heavily based on time means that the biggest obstacle to a good score is the loading screen boss and client crashes. When you have to wait on people to log back on, you have no chance to compete for the top spots on the leaderboards. It becomes all about luck then, assuming two equally skilled teams.

Nifty2g

Haha, that's actually true, has happened a few times

xMovingTarget

Crashes or disconnects will always happen. In most cases its clientbased anyways.

Now to my concerns with the leaderboards. The point system was a good idea. But still doesnt work. At least not competitive. Still do pvp buffs factor in. And now after 1.6 more than ever. Especially with the scoring mainly based on time.

On top of that we have the champion system. The ones with higher amount of cp automatically are able to achieve higher points. Wouldnt matter actually if we would have an end to it on where everybody is the same again.

Leaderboards in this game just dont make sense or are good for competition anymore. Me personally stopped bothering about it. Since its not an even competition anymore.

And then ZoS also doesnt want to tell us the rules on this competition.

Typed this with my phone. If you find misspellings, blame the small phone keyboard

swagbandit

I agree with Nifty's argument based on what ive learnt from the new scoring system. My main problem is that deaths from my research have no negative effect on the score until a certain threshold. So teams that can do vdsa with no deaths a little slower get no advantage over teams that do it recklessly fast(much easier). One maybe two deaths ok maybe no negative score effect but im seeing after 10 deaths they then become subtractive and that's too many.

Smiteye

Nifty2g wrote:

Please hear me out.

Prior to update 6, raiding was actually a bit challenging especially going for no death runs right? The newest trial Sanctum Ophidia, many guilds tried over and over again for weeks going for the 33 minute achievement and in the end they finally got it, going for it increased their play style by so much, it is pretty hard to get 12 people to work so well with each other and have a perfect run and get the achievement right? There was a total of 3 groups on the North American Server to get that achievement.

Same goes with Dragonstar Arena, there were 5 teams total on the North American Server who had gotten a "no death" run, and gotten a time of under 70 minutes, I was part of the 8 people in the world to have gotten an under 60 minute run without having a death, that took weeks on end to work on and going in over and over trying to figure out how to do it perfectly. There was only one other team who had gotten under 60 minutes on the European Server. I know this seems pointless to add, but it's giving me meaning to post a thread that is hopefully going to be heard, there is not a lot of high end PvE players on the forums to make a difference so we can see some changes.

So, Zenimax before update 6 had came out, you had said specifically that there are more factors to getting a great point score than just flat out time, this had made everyone excited but after a few testings with this new system, guess what? Time is even more important than it ever was, killing enemies are not really worth it as much as flat out time is, in HRC, AA and SO there are a few enemy packs that is worth skipping than going for the points that you give for killing them. Same in Dragonstar Arena, I can name one right now, people skip the second set of mini bosses that Hiath spawns and burn Hiath 50-0 because that is worth way more points than killing them both and then splitting off for another 30 seconds, you waste about a minute and 20 seconds doing that.

My next point, deaths. WHY on earth have death penalties removed, they only add 50 points or so to your overall score; this is promoting a HORRIBLE play style to everyone in PvE, you can die as much as you want and it doesn't matter. On the third week of the patch being out I got the 33minute Speed Trial for Sanctum Ophidia and I had 40 lives left in my group, what the hell is this? Why is one of the most hardest PvE achievement to get so damn easy now?

Dragonstar arena NEEDS a no death point bonus at the end, because what, the way to get the best time in there is to grab 2 great DPS that you know which would have to be Nightblade Stamina DPS as casters at the moment have no sustain with their magicka and Stamina has been made to destroy everything. There is nothing competitive about this system.

My main point is this Zenimax, you have stripped away EVERYTHING that was challenging and have given raiding such a hollow and simplistic system, no it's not different factors to get a good score, it's purely time based. I have talked to many high raiding big named players and they are all disappointed in this system. As a quick fix to this, you really need to add a more challenging part before you fix up the point system, you need deaths to account to subtracting around 200 or 250 of your total score, because I have a question for you, WHY THE HELL did you remove the 5 minute time removal? Yes it was harsh but it made everything worth it, it made people play better, with such a crappy penalty it gives now I've already said this but it promotes a horrible play style. Also there should be no death completion runs that give you an increased score of about 5,000 or 10,000. Because there are not many people who can do that, and it opens up a whole new challenge for the serious raiders who can challenge each other. I was hoping to have a challenge with the EU guys who had beaten my 58 minute no death dsa run pre update 6, but we can't do that as there is little to no skill involved anymore.

Please, take into consideration of these updates, I will try my best to get the views of other PvE players in this thread. But can we make small changes at once before big ones so we can fix this system up. Deaths highly need to mean more than what they do and we need a no death completion bonus, can you imagine a team beating Hardmode Sanctum Ophidia without having any deaths? Hard to imagine isn't it, but having such a bonus will encourage guilds to try it out.

Can't disagree more... deaths automatically mean youre losing damage from needing to rez or by being down men if you don't. Much ado about nothing. If your concern is about the 33min achieve, join the club, there are tons of things never updated that were hard before and easy now like all death achieves and speed runs etc. Heck psijic testers didn't get a title or achievement even to prove they were there ingame and that was way more important than getting a speedrun on live. Ask them to rename the old achievement for people who did it early or something but if a raid grp is beating you and having deaths while you lost no one and still couldnt do it faster that's on you.

Anyway this is already ingame as you asked:

You get points by...
•Points for killing enemies (more points for all of them)
•Points for clearing waves (DSA)
•Points for time.
•Reduced points for deaths (not as high a penalty as it was before.)

Deaths impact time too so not getting the point here.

Nifty2g

Smiteye wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote:

Please hear me out.

Prior to update 6, raiding was actually a bit challenging especially going for no death runs right? The newest trial Sanctum Ophidia, many guilds tried over and over again for weeks going for the 33 minute achievement and in the end they finally got it, going for it increased their play style by so much, it is pretty hard to get 12 people to work so well with each other and have a perfect run and get the achievement right? There was a total of 3 groups on the North American Server to get that achievement.

Same goes with Dragonstar Arena, there were 5 teams total on the North American Server who had gotten a "no death" run, and gotten a time of under 70 minutes, I was part of the 8 people in the world to have gotten an under 60 minute run without having a death, that took weeks on end to work on and going in over and over trying to figure out how to do it perfectly. There was only one other team who had gotten under 60 minutes on the European Server. I know this seems pointless to add, but it's giving me meaning to post a thread that is hopefully going to be heard, there is not a lot of high end PvE players on the forums to make a difference so we can see some changes.

So, Zenimax before update 6 had came out, you had said specifically that there are more factors to getting a great point score than just flat out time, this had made everyone excited but after a few testings with this new system, guess what? Time is even more important than it ever was, killing enemies are not really worth it as much as flat out time is, in HRC, AA and SO there are a few enemy packs that is worth skipping than going for the points that you give for killing them. Same in Dragonstar Arena, I can name one right now, people skip the second set of mini bosses that Hiath spawns and burn Hiath 50-0 because that is worth way more points than killing them both and then splitting off for another 30 seconds, you waste about a minute and 20 seconds doing that.

My next point, deaths. WHY on earth have death penalties removed, they only add 50 points or so to your overall score; this is promoting a HORRIBLE play style to everyone in PvE, you can die as much as you want and it doesn't matter. On the third week of the patch being out I got the 33minute Speed Trial for Sanctum Ophidia and I had 40 lives left in my group, what the hell is this? Why is one of the most hardest PvE achievement to get so damn easy now?

Dragonstar arena NEEDS a no death point bonus at the end, because what, the way to get the best time in there is to grab 2 great DPS that you know which would have to be Nightblade Stamina DPS as casters at the moment have no sustain with their magicka and Stamina has been made to destroy everything. There is nothing competitive about this system.

My main point is this Zenimax, you have stripped away EVERYTHING that was challenging and have given raiding such a hollow and simplistic system, no it's not different factors to get a good score, it's purely time based. I have talked to many high raiding big named players and they are all disappointed in this system. As a quick fix to this, you really need to add a more challenging part before you fix up the point system, you need deaths to account to subtracting around 200 or 250 of your total score, because I have a question for you, WHY THE HELL did you remove the 5 minute time removal? Yes it was harsh but it made everything worth it, it made people play better, with such a crappy penalty it gives now I've already said this but it promotes a horrible play style. Also there should be no death completion runs that give you an increased score of about 5,000 or 10,000. Because there are not many people who can do that, and it opens up a whole new challenge for the serious raiders who can challenge each other. I was hoping to have a challenge with the EU guys who had beaten my 58 minute no death dsa run pre update 6, but we can't do that as there is little to no skill involved anymore.

Please, take into consideration of these updates, I will try my best to get the views of other PvE players in this thread. But can we make small changes at once before big ones so we can fix this system up. Deaths highly need to mean more than what they do and we need a no death completion bonus, can you imagine a team beating Hardmode Sanctum Ophidia without having any deaths? Hard to imagine isn't it, but having such a bonus will encourage guilds to try it out.

Can't disagree more... deaths automatically mean youre losing damage from needing to rez or by being down men if you don't. Much ado about nothing. If your concern is about the 33min achieve, join the club, there are tons of things never updated that were hard before and easy now like all death achieves and speed runs etc. Heck psijic testers didn't get a title or achievement even to prove they were there ingame and that was way more important than getting a speedrun on live. Ask them to rename the old achievement for people who did it early or something but if a raid grp is beating you and having deaths while you lost no one and still couldnt do it faster that's on you.

Anyway this is already ingame as you asked:

You get points by...
•Points for killing enemies (more points for all of them)
•Points for clearing waves (DSA)
•Points for time.
•Reduced points for deaths (not as high a penalty as it was before.)

Deaths impact time too so not getting the point here.

You might want to check your last points, you get more points per second than clearing all the trash, should it be like that? No.
Should deaths count for more of a penalty; yes
Should there be no death compensation to keep proper end game competition for the high end players? Yes.

You seem to be missing the point of this; Zenimax stated that this system was to point out there are many things that factor in getting a good score, killing mobs and this secret formula; when it comes down to it, time is more of an important factor than it ever was before. Do you really think there is proper end game competition with depth by cheesing the time mechanic by skipping mechanics on round 10 to save 2 minutes? Hmm, do you really think there is depth in the system when you have lets just say for example a team with 10 deaths and a clear with 54 minutes be better than a team with no deaths and a clear of 55 minutes.

Ask yourself these questions and see what the system favors. Time is far too important and it shouldn't be, system needs a revamp

Nifty2g

On the plus side though, it seems many high end PvE guilds have been agreeing, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_AlanG @ZOS_TristanK any word on an updated system with improved bonuses to actually give trials and dsa proper completion between each other? At the moment it seems this system is FAR too considerate for casual gamers, hell, DSA and Trials have been nerfed so hard it's not even a challenge anymore, you don't even need mitigation in Sanctum. This is ruining PvE End Game and has became such a let down from what I thought it would have been for Title Update 6.

igohamnchz

ZoS had a great opportunity to give their players an awesome loot chase with Sanctum Hard Mode, and attract more 'hardcore' style of gamers with it. Instead they decided to standardize the 'end-game' for the small amount of casual players in the game and convert end-game to 'introductory' type raiding for console players. That's the bottom line, and it was intentional by them. Nothing we do is going to convince them otherwise.

The chance for this game to attract the players who care to raid competitively through challenging content is gone, and that's ok with them. Its all care bears and cupcakes now Nifty, lets hope ZoS gives challenging end-game another try with whatever content update they decide to release half a year after console release. Until then ill be not paying a sub and in pvp, until their lack of being able to sustain the amount of people who pvp on the servers forces these players to leave as well. Anyone know when Black Desert comes out?

Never forget, the best ESO raiders pre-1.6 nerf.

RIP Purple

Nifty2g

igohamnchz wrote: »

ZoS had a great opportunity to give their players an awesome loot chase with Sanctum Hard Mode, and attract more 'hardcore' style of gamers with it. Instead they decided to standardize the 'end-game' for the small amount of casual players in the game and convert end-game to 'introductory' type raiding for console players. That's the bottom line, and it was intentional by them. Nothing we do is going to convince them otherwise.

The chance for this game to attract the players who care to raid competitively through challenging content is gone, and that's ok with them. Its all care bears and cupcakes now Nifty, lets hope ZoS gives challenging end-game another try with whatever content update they decide to release half a year after console release. Until then ill be not paying a sub and in pvp, until their lack of being able to sustain the amount of people who pvp on the servers forces these players to leave as well. Anyone know when Black Desert comes out?

Never forget, the best ESO raiders pre-1.6 nerf.

RIP Purple

@ZOS listen to this man, there are many high end raiders in this thread that want the raiding to be fixed. Fix the loot, fix the challenge, fix the reward. PvE is useless

To prove that these players are actually people you'd want to listen to take a lot at what they have achieved
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160598/wkb-downs-serpent-hardmode#latest
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/145442/33m-sanctum-ophidia-achievement#latest
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/147281/new-1-world-time-for-sanctum-ophidia-by-the-purple-guild#latest

Listen to your player base, please.

Nifty2g

I had spoken to @TehMagnus and he asked me to post this on his behalf

I personally don’t dislike the IDEA of having a point based system in the game and as I told Nifty I had high hopes for it when it was first announced by zenimax.

Current moto of any guild who understands the system and is going for top leaderboard scores is: If it takes more than a couple of seconds to kill, then it’s not worth killing. The reason for this is that the system pretty much works as stated:
– Time is everything (almost everything).
– No Death Penalty (as long as you revive the person before end of round).
– Trashmobs give marginal amount of points.
– Hard Mode gives 40K points to which time + kills + deaths are either added or deducted.

Regarding trials this doesn’t change much in comparison with vanilla ESO (I think we can call anything prior to 1.6 vanilla ESO now that the game was fundamentally changed and we’re in 2.0). The only difference is that now Hard Modes are important for #1 position.

It doesn’t change much for Veteran Dragonstar Arena either, time is still the most important thing there.

And this is sad in my opinion. The way it currently looks is that a point system was introduced to allow the Hard Modes to be taken into account in the competition but nothing else that could make raiding more meaningful and enjoyable was added.

Ideas to fix raiding:

In my opinion there are two ways to move on from this:

– Acknowledge that time is still everything, and if that’s the case remove points given for killing trashmobs and the points lost for dying (you can also readd death penalty and make it harsher to force people not to die, it depends how you look at it but as long as the rules are clear, it doesn’t really matter)
– Make GOOD use of the point system to build something new!

Something new:

The system is governed by points and many factors could potentially add or subtract points depending on how you want the game to be, this could also fix the ”exclusion” problem some classes are facing in trials.

Example:

– Points rewarded for class diversity: We can’t have groups with 4 templars, 4 sorcs, 4 Nightblades and 4 DragonKnights, but you can force people to take at least two characters from each class by giving full points for each boss kill if there are at least two characters of each class in the group and reduce the amount of points earned if there’s classes missing. This would solve a lot of exclusion problems in raids.

– Synergy activation points. When the system was announced, there where hints that synregizing would make us earn points, it doesn’t (or at least the gain is marginal). In order to avoid people cheating, you could only add points for synergies activated during combat and at the right time. Some synergies are useless, others aren’t. This would push the players to use synergies effectively and focus on something else than their own set of skills.

– Time is important but it’s not the defining factor: Yes we should get points for time, but time shouldn’t be able to negate the class diversity points unless there is a big difference like five more minutes.

– Deaths: In such a system, I believe death should be penalizing like it used to be and at least more than it is now. The aim would be to reward good gameplay, good tactics and diversity. Avoiding death is part of good gameplay and penalizing it pushes people to progress in the right direction.

– Split leaderboards: I don’t really mind that the Hard Modes give that many points, BUT if we had a leaderboard for normal and a leaderboard for Hard Mode, this would allow further levels of competition. Veteran Hardcore guilds would prefer to compete in Hard Mode leaderboards and this would leave more room for other guilds to progress in normal leaderboards while having a chance to compete with people at their level and why not conquer them before entering the Hard Mode league!

– Either give full pvp buffs to people entering trials or just simply remove them. How can you have a fair competition when people are not playing by the same rules? Some are lucky that their alliance is doing well in PVP, some aren’t and haven’t had emperor buff for weeks, and even if they go to PVP, there’s little they can do. Competition is not fair unless the parameters are the same for everybody.

As for the rewards, I’m usually against a token system in videogames, but seeing the problems with traits and the very very limited usefulness of trial gear at the moment, I’d recommend a token system so people feel like they are progressing towards something and not just playing roulette. This is equally true for the daily quests.

And as always, make the rules public. There is no competition if the rules aren’t defined.

asneakybanana

I totally agree. As someone who is pushing for the #1 times on the LBs right now its stupid how time based all of the content is where as before if we had a death on something stupid now we just say whatever deaths dont matter go faster. I agree that the addition of more points for completing hard mode is great and actually gives us a reason to clear the content its a stupid mechanic. Only thing i find enjoyable in end game right now is seeing how much dps i can pull and min-maxing my build. current target is 17k on serpent when you need an average of like 7.5k among your raid to clear before double manti. Also somewhere along the line i do remember them saying that there was going to be some next level gear that you could get from hard mode SO. I mean just now we got 48k in HR w/ a full wipe. Thats absolutely stupid. Please fix this ZoS

Valymer

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Crashes or disconnects will always happen. In most cases its clientbased anyways.

Not sure what your point is here. I raided in 60-100 man raids on Everquest and we had a smaller proportion of disconnects or loading problems than in a 12-man on ESO.

True sh*t happens, but when it is almost guaranteed to happen to someone at least once per run it adds a further, unnecessary level of difficulty that has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with luck.

If I wanted to compete based on luck I would go to a casino.

Attorneyatlawl

Nifty2g wrote: »

Please hear me out,

Prior to update 6, raiding was actually a bit challenging especially going for no death runs right? The newest trial Sanctum Ophidia, many guilds tried over and over again for weeks going for the 33 minute achievement and in the end they finally got it, going for it increased their play style by so much, it is pretty hard to get 12 people to work so well with each other and have a perfect run and get the achievement right? There was a total of 3 groups on the North American Server to get that achievement.

Same goes with Dragonstar Arena, there were 5 teams total on the North American Server who had gotten a "no death" run, and gotten a time of under 70 minutes, I was part of the 8 people in the world to have gotten an under 60 minute run without having a death, that took weeks on end to work on and going in over and over trying to figure out how to do it perfectly. There was only one other team who had gotten under 60 minutes on the European Server. I know this seems pointless to add, but it's giving me meaning to post a thread that is hopefully going to be heard, there is not a lot of high end PvE players on the forums to make a difference so we can see some changes.

So, Zenimax before update 6 had came out, you had said specifically that there are more factors to getting a great point score than just flat out time, this had made everyone excited but after a few testings with this new system, guess what? Time is even more important than it ever was, killing enemies are not really worth it as much as flat out time is, in HRC, AA and SO there are a few enemy packs that is worth skipping than going for the points that you give for killing them. Same in Dragonstar Arena, I can name one right now, people skip the second set of mini bosses that Hiath spawns and burn Hiath 50-0 because that is worth way more points than killing them both and then splitting off for another 30 seconds, you waste about a minute and 20 seconds doing that.

My next point, deaths. WHY on earth have death penalties removed, they only add 50 points or so to your overall score; this is promoting a HORRIBLE play style to everyone in PvE, you can die as much as you want and it doesn't matter. On the third week of the patch being out I got the 33minute Speed Trial for Sanctum Ophidia and I had 40 lives left in my group, what the hell is this? Why is one of the most hardest PvE achievement to get so damn easy now?

Dragonstar arena NEEDS a no death point bonus at the end, because what, the way to get the best time in there is to grab 2 great DPS that you know which would have to be Nightblade Stamina DPS as casters at the moment have no sustain with their magicka and Stamina has been made to destroy everything. There is nothing competitive about this system.

My main point is this Zenimax, you have stripped away EVERYTHING that was challenging and have given raiding such a hollow and simplistic system, no it's not different factors to get a good score, it's purely time based. I have talked to many high raiding big named players and they are all disappointed in this system. As a quick fix to this, you really need to add a more challenging part before you fix up the point system, you need deaths to account to subtracting around 200 or 250 of your total score, because I have a question for you, WHY THE HELL did you remove the 5 minute time removal? Yes it was harsh but it made everything worth it, it made people play better, with such a crappy penalty it gives now I've already said this but it promotes a horrible play style. Also there should be no death completion runs that give you an increased score of about 5,000 or 10,000. Because there are not many people who can do that, and it opens up a whole new challenge for the serious raiders who can challenge each other. I was hoping to have a challenge with the EU guys who had beaten my 58 minute no death dsa run pre update 6, but we can't do that as there is little to no skill involved anymore.

Please, take into consideration of these updates, I will try my best to get the views of other PvE players in this thread. But can we make small changes at once before big ones so we can fix this system up. Deaths highly need to mean more than what they do and we need a no death completion bonus, can you imagine a team beating Hardmode Sanctum Ophidia without having any deaths? Hard to imagine isn't it, but having such a bonus will encourage guilds to try it out.

This is fairly humorous, really. I actually intended to post a deeper response to how all of this is already addressed in the current system, but...

Nifty2g wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

This. It's rather obvious what this trend is going towards. And I'd also point out that gold can buy top end gear in ESO, so saving 200k gold that you'd have otherwise spent directly benefits your character power as you can go buy a nice set item instead. Add in that it hits the game economy by devaluing ways to earn gold while also inflating the economy some since you can get skill respecs too. I'm pretty sure we're going to see EXP potions that boost your champion xp soon and then it's game over, outright pay to win directly (champion points boost your stats, passives, and character strength, so earning at a high rate would give you a huge boost over others who don't pay up to win in a very short time, and within matter of weeks to a couple of months the gap would become huge).

I find it hard to take anything you post seriously anymore, just feels as if you're looking for things to pick at now. Who cares if motifs are on the crown store, it's just as Zenimax said small convenience items, stop posting stuff like oh I fear such and such gear will be on the crown store, it obviously wont the general response is against it.
As for EXP Potions, you're going to use them, you know you will, everyone else will too. Zenimax knows you, you and I know it so don't bother with the same old P2W comment, you get 1500 crowns for subscribing each month that will be used on EXP Potions, Zenimax need a certain item to keep people subscribed don't they?

Same old boring argument annoying to read now

This thread is basically doa anyways.

(Edited to remove long-dead conversation and resolved in-game debates).

eserras7b16_ESO

I agree with the poster arguments, death should be big penalties.

Nifty2g

Sigh, I've sort of given up on this thread, however it would be amazing if the devs had taken a look at this, I really do feel as if this new system it encourages a bad play style, it would be nice if deaths took away 250 Points, and a no death completion gave you 4000 or so points.

@ZOS @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_MichelleA @ZOS_TristanK

itsBishop

igohamnchz wrote: »

Never forget, the best ESO raiders pre-1.6 nerf.

RIP Purple

I shed a tear. I've been checking the forums periodically since leaving right before 1.6 hit, just hoping that serious raiding had somehow been reinjected back into ESO or slated to be a priority issue in the near future; but from everything I'm reading there's really no hope.

RIP Purple

EgoRush

Bring back a death penalty! Aye!!

Eucken

I'm against higher penalties for deaths. Somebody dying is often a time penalty in and of itself, because this player can'T do dmg at this time and you lose even more dmg because another player has to revive him.

And in the old system even if somebody died in a non critical moment because of some small error you had to restart for a good time and we sometimes are allready 50% of a trial evening in a loading screen. If you have to restart even more because compensating for a death becomes impossible like in the old system we will be stuck in even more loading screens.

And loading screens are really not my ideal form of gameplay

Attorneyatlawl

EgoRush wrote: »

Bring back a death penalty! Aye!!

Eucken wrote: »

I'm against higher penalties for deaths. Somebody dying is often a time penalty in and of itself, because this player can'T do dmg at this time and you lose even more dmg because another player has to revive him.

And in the old system even if somebody died in a non critical moment because of some small error you had to restart for a good time and we sometimes are allready 50% of a trial evening in a loading screen. If you have to restart even more because compensating for a death becomes impossible like in the old system we will be stuck in even more loading screens.

And loading screens are really not my ideal form of gameplay

That's basically what my argument was back when I was asked to support this thread quite awhile back, in-game. A death already ends up counting for a significant score penalty due to the lost damage, which means lost time, and time is the major component of how your score is calculated alongside killing everything. If a player dies you're losing a good 15-20k damage per second that player is dead, as well as an additional amount of healing or damage as someone else has to ressurect him mid-fight, which also ends up generally rippling into the raid's performance as a whole to compensate during that. You are basically losing a solid 20+ seconds of DPS from the person that died, as it were, counting the lost damage or healing that the person needing to stop and rez could no longer contribute. So, no... it doesn't display a big popup banner saying "SOMEONE DIED! YOU LOSE 500 POINTS!", but you will see the slower time and resulting score lowered as the direct result of that person's death.

ZOS_RichLambert

/lurk

Nifty2g

Months later and working around the new system and being the top score in NA server I still fully support this thread, and I hope @ZOS_RichLambert that the lurking is paying off. Shhhhhh

Eucken

Well @Nifty2g I'm world first in the three trials I think that argumentation really doesn'T help us

http://esoleaderboards.com/

Nifty2g

Eucken wrote: »

Well @Nifty2g I'm world first in the three trials I think that argumentation really doesn'T help us

http://esoleaderboards.com/

At the time this was mainly aimed at VDSA (and still is)
Speaking of trials though, the design for that is so horrible it would need a new thread completely. I feel as if the design for that is way off from how it should be.

As for death penalties, yes they should be in as I've said before. It provokes a horrible play style to casual and hardcore players. Yes dying does matter as @Attorneyatlawl said because all the older players are much used to staying alive where as say a bunch of new players come to a certain trial, they are going to die and expect to die because not dying isn't at all part of the system.

Also your argument is @Eucken that you're against death penalties because someone dies at a non critical moment? Maybe they shouldn't die at all then? This system just seems very dull from what it used to be. Just saying.

And by a death penalty, I am asking for taking around 250 points off of your score to separate the top scores a bit more and give it a bit of competition. For trials and VDSA

Nifty2g

I do however need to make an updated version of this thread which I may do later tonight

Eucken

Well 250 points per death does have quite a lot of a different impact, depending on how much the trial gives you in total and I want to put that in perspective with the old system.

We had times like 7 min. in AA or Hel'ra in the old system. One death would increase your time by 71% and sorry but thats just to much impact for just one death.

With your 250 points one death would only impact an AA or Hel'ra score by 0,3% (with an 80k score)

Even in Arena with the old score sytem a death would increase your time by about 9% when you had a 57 min. time. Now with your 250 points proposition in mind it would only increase the score by 2%. Which would be more then 4 times lower the in the old system.

So having a higher score penalty would have a higher absolute impact on the different trials. That means you would have to have different values for the death penaltys to give it a better fit in relations to the different trials.

So for trials your "new system" proposition would have a close to 700% higher impact on arena and normal modes of trials than hard mode trials.

And to your comment why did they die in the first place? Because it happens and sorry but if you think one should be penalized for that with a lowering of your score by 41% than thats your opinion but not a very good one...

yeah since 0,3% and 71% impact from what you seem to want and what you are proposing I think you should think about your argumentation again before you get a difference of 23666% between what you seem to want and what you are proprosing.

furthermore since the new Creative Director has taken an interest in this thread maybe we should keep this thread

andy_s

there is no need to make the outdated content competetive, all we need is a new one

grass-assassin

they need to make the game fun for everyone not just the competitive pc users who want top world scores lol . everyone needs to be able to get gear . when you have that few of people doing no death runs its definately time for an adjustment . people who make games only rewarding for people who play ALOT and i am one of them just lose alot of people who get discouraged from being destroyed so many times lol . i do agree when its made easier like that it kinda discourages heavy players aswell but you cant please everyone. they could maybe make a dsa mode or trials where it was how you guys like it . and have the leaderboards and then have a mode for people who dont care about scores and just want the loot .

Alcast

1. Deactivate CP
2. Put in Death Penalty
3. Remove PvP Buffs - that is already on the way.

halfbadger

Alcast wrote: »

1. Deactivate CP
2. Put in Death Penalty
3. Remove PvP Buffs - that is already on the way.

Or give everyone the same number of CPs and buff the mobs.

Attorneyatlawl

Eucken wrote: »

Well 250 points per death does have quite a lot of a different impact, depending on how much the trial gives you in total and I want to put that in perspective with the old system.

We had times like 7 min. in AA or Hel'ra in the old system. One death would increase your time by 71% and sorry but thats just to much impact for just one death.

With your 250 points one death would only impact an AA or Hel'ra score by 0,3% (with an 80k score)

Even in Arena with the old score sytem a death would increase your time by about 9% when you had a 57 min. time. Now with your 250 points proposition in mind it would only increase the score by 2%. Which would be more then 4 times lower the in the old system.

So having a higher score penalty would have a higher absolute impact on the different trials. That means you would have to have different values for the death penaltys to give it a better fit in relations to the different trials.

So for trials your "new system" proposition would have a close to 700% higher impact on arena and normal modes of trials than hard mode trials.

And to your comment why did they die in the first place? Because it happens and sorry but if you think one should be penalized for that with a lowering of your score by 41% than thats your opinion but not a very good one...

yeah since 0,3% and 71% impact from what you seem to want and what you are proposing I think you should think about your argumentation again before you get a difference of 23666% between what you seem to want and what you are proprosing.

furthermore since the new Creative Director has taken an interest in this thread maybe we should keep this thread

That's a simple enough thing to head off by design. You'd simply need to have the deaths count as a score percentage loss based on how many souls/rezzes the group/raid had remaining when it's finished. For a basic mechanic check like that, a flat value doesn't work if you want to apply it to everything fairly equally... but percentages do that quite tidily . And to be honest, while I still don't agree with @Nifty2g that there's a pressing need to change the scoring right now, I am in favor of factoring deaths in to some extent as a score percentage reduction the next time it is changed after having understood his point of view better over time during various discussions in guild chat these past months. If I were to speculate, it wouldn't surprise me to see the boards be reset at some point around when the DLC patch containing the Imperial City launches, since we've heard/seen info about it containing a new arena and a pair of dungeons, big item set additions and tweaks, etc. that would be a perfect milestone to do it at.

andy.s wrote: »

there is no need to make the outdated content competetive, all we need is a new one

It's actually the current top level of PVE difficulty and progression, so it's very much not "outdated content" . When more are added, there's no reason to deprecate the "old" ones... change the scoring a little to match towards more recently introduced ones when they come in, adjust the rewards slightly such as adding any potential new traits or parts of some newer sets, and it remains relevant . Just because they were introduced awhile back doesn't make them less fun; it makes it feel repetitive for those who've done them a lot of times, but that's about it.

Nothing's "wrong" with them or "outdated" inherently with them, other than the same issue with all of the PVE content as character power continues to grow, which will need to be addressed at some point or another with a global systems change. One immediately obvious idea would be to have enemies take your champion rank into account when fighting you (pve and pvp) to some damage modifier, as a simple one, but that alone is too blunt a solution to really be the "best" one. There are concepts to be brainstormed, though.