Solo Endgame needed - Must Group Must End.

WraithAzraiel · March 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Yes solo and group should both be viable means to achieve any objective.

1. The "MMO = group" is a strawman - massive multiplayer does not mean "group only". There is no group in there. It means lots of people sharing the same space. Wether to group, how many, who with is a personal CHOICE or a design decision.
2. The "because MMO" is also a strawman. Relying on previous game models to dictate how all future models shall be built is simply lame. ZOS has tried to create a unique product in the market place. If they mimicked everyone else they wouldn't have a unique product. They would just be a clone of <insert your bestest ancient MMO that everyone left because it was so awesome here>
3. The OP wasn't rude until everyone started chomping on his arse for the heathen suggestion of solo option in a game.
4. The group only model worked so well that everyone praised craglorn.....not!

I am quite surprised at some of the replies on this thread. There is obviously a lot of people here with preconceived ideas of what an MMO should be (based on years of baggage) rather than what it can be (to be welcoming to all and be inclusive rather than exclusive). I guess guilds are at risk if there is no group only agenda so it must be some kind of defence mechanism to generate such animosity.

People keep throwing around terms like "straw man" and "ad hominulomulus" and "fallacy" when I don't think they truly understand the meaning and proper usage of these words.

How is decades of dogma "being presented to be easily refuted"? (TIP: THAT'S WHAT A STRAW MAN ARGUMENT IS - An argument given that can be easily refuted.)

Refute away.

WraithAzraiel · March 2015

Don't get it twisted people. I and others agreeing with me are not saying there should not be ANY NEW SOLO content.

I'm just saying you shouldn't be able to get Be All End All SUPER DUPER Raid Gear from solo'ing. Even if it is a challenge.

As the game currently stands, there are more than enough avenues to acquire gear to make you efficient. Currently crafting is crucial to having Best in Slot gear.

Crafting is also something that requires no grouping to achieve.

I'm all for the Devs giving us more solo content and more group content. I'm not of either camp on this, I want both so I can play the game however the hell I feel like playing on a particular day.

I want worthwhile content I can have fun experiencing both BY myself and with a group of friends or non-d-bag strangers.

I just think the loot and gear system should stay as is.

WraithAzraiel · March 2015

VictoriaRachel wrote: »

I did enjoy the solo 'end-game' instance offered by Wildstar. It was a fun activity though really no where near as challenging as it could have been (I only died on a jumping puzzle, and that never feels like a real death to me). I think it is something that can really add to a game, options are good. So I wouldn't mind if they added some solo story instances with some serious challenges. I want to wipe over and over on bosses just like progress raiding!

Gear-wise though it should never reward anything like the group content. I am not going to have the time nor skill in co-ordinating with a team to earn that, and that is exactly how it should be. I should not have the best gear if I am not the best at all aspects including group play.

Oh WildStar was a blast, until you hit the Attunement wall required for raiding. My entire guild up and left that game after finding out it was a 30 step questline that required many many dedicated hours to complete.

Ain't nobody got time fo dat!

WraithAzraiel · March 2015

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Any content that requires features not provided by the game is flawed, plain and simple. ESO does not provide voice chat therefore it should not be required for any of its content. People should not have to install some strange third party software.

ESO's going to have built in voice chat for console. And voice chat is rarely ever needed for grouping, it just makes things easier.

IE: Instead of typing out instructions or advice, you can listen to the knowledgeable individual in the VOIP give it out.

Kingdinguhling · March 2015

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Your solution is that they waste man hours and money creating something that would make the necessity for grouping obsolete. Grouping which is the bread and butter of an MMO.

Grouping is not bread and butter of MMO, many players playing online together and interacting in various ways is. Really cant wait for dlcs to show up, then we can start voting with wallets. We will see if developing solo content is waste of man hours and money, or maybe we will see that many people don't want to pay for forced group conten

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THERE IS TOO MUCH SOLO CONTENT.

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BEST SETS AND GEAR ARE CRAFTED WITH LITTLE HASSLE.

so honestly I don't understand why you are trying to make this point when it should be the otherway around.

there is only like 3 dungeons endgame.

and then dailys which can only be done once a day.

and PVP can be done ant any lvl.

Emma_Overload · March 2015

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Your solution is that they waste man hours and money creating something that would make the necessity for grouping obsolete. Grouping which is the bread and butter of an MMO.

Grouping is not bread and butter of MMO, many players playing online together and interacting in various ways is. Really cant wait for dlcs to show up, then we can start voting with wallets. We will see if developing solo content is waste of man hours and money, or maybe we will see that many people don't want to pay for forced group conten

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THERE IS TOO MUCH SOLO CONTENT.

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BEST SETS AND GEAR ARE CRAFTED WITH LITTLE HASSLE.

so honestly I don't understand why you are trying to make this point when it should be the otherway around.

there is only like 3 dungeons endgame.

and then dailys which can only be done once a day.

and PVP can be done ant any lvl.

What "SOLO CONTENT" should I farm to get Warlock rings or Master's Sword or Nirnhoned gear drops?

Which "BEST SETS AND GEAR" can be crafted that have 2 spell crit bonuses or stamina cost reduction like some Trial sets do?

Sorry, you can use all caps if you want, but you haven't PROVEN anything.

Rune_Relic · March 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Yes solo and group should both be viable means to achieve any objective.

1. The "MMO = group" is a strawman - massive multiplayer does not mean "group only". There is no group in there. It means lots of people sharing the same space. Wether to group, how many, who with is a personal CHOICE or a design decision.
2. The "because MMO" is also a strawman. Relying on previous game models to dictate how all future models shall be built is simply lame. ZOS has tried to create a unique product in the market place. If they mimicked everyone else they wouldn't have a unique product. They would just be a clone of <insert your bestest ancient MMO that everyone left because it was so awesome here>
3. The OP wasn't rude until everyone started chomping on his arse for the heathen suggestion of solo option in a game.
4. The group only model worked so well that everyone praised craglorn.....not!

I am quite surprised at some of the replies on this thread. There is obviously a lot of people here with preconceived ideas of what an MMO should be (based on years of baggage) rather than what it can be (to be welcoming to all and be inclusive rather than exclusive). I guess guilds are at risk if there is no group only agenda so it must be some kind of defence mechanism to generate such animosity.

People keep throwing around terms like "straw man" and "ad hominulomulus" and "fallacy" when I don't think they truly understand the meaning and proper usage of these words.

How is decades of dogma "being presented to be easily refuted"? (TIP: THAT'S WHAT A STRAW MAN ARGUMENT IS - An argument given that can be easily refuted.)

Refute away.

Because its irrelevant argument.
I am sure the poster believes MMO has some relationship to "= must group"....but it is purely there own interpretation of what MMO means. There is no rulebook written anyway that says massive multiplayers online = MUST group.

The dogma is not the strawman....using irrelevant argument is.

Emma_Overload · March 2015

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Any content that requires features not provided by the game is flawed, plain and simple. ESO does not provide voice chat therefore it should not be required for any of its content. People should not have to install some strange third party software.

Agreed, especially since the TOS supposedly bans players from using 3rd party software to gain an advantage! For some reason a tacit exception has been made for VOIP apps...

Rune_Relic · March 2015

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Your solution is that they waste man hours and money creating something that would make the necessity for grouping obsolete. Grouping which is the bread and butter of an MMO.

Grouping is not bread and butter of MMO, many players playing online together and interacting in various ways is. Really cant wait for dlcs to show up, then we can start voting with wallets. We will see if developing solo content is waste of man hours and money, or maybe we will see that many people don't want to pay for forced group conten

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THERE IS TOO MUCH SOLO CONTENT.

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BEST SETS AND GEAR ARE CRAFTED WITH LITTLE HASSLE.

so honestly I don't understand why you are trying to make this point when it should be the otherway around.

there is only like 3 dungeons endgame.

and then dailys which can only be done once a day.

and PVP can be done ant any lvl.

That is not "SOLO tm" content...that is "public" content that can be group/solo at your choice.
Public content = shared.
Group content = Group of X ...unshared instance
Solo content = Group of 1... unshared instance.

When I think of solo content I am talking about instances.....not shared public areas.
That kind of content can be just as hard for 1 player as as a group dungeon can be for a group.

LucyferLightbringer · March 2015

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Your solution is that they waste man hours and money creating something that would make the necessity for grouping obsolete. Grouping which is the bread and butter of an MMO.

Grouping is not bread and butter of MMO, many players playing online together and interacting in various ways is. Really cant wait for dlcs to show up, then we can start voting with wallets. We will see if developing solo content is waste of man hours and money, or maybe we will see that many people don't want to pay for forced group conten

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THERE IS TOO MUCH SOLO CONTENT.

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BEST SETS AND GEAR ARE CRAFTED WITH LITTLE HASSLE.

so honestly I don't understand why you are trying to make this point when it should be the otherway around.

there is only like 3 dungeons endgame.

and then dailys which can only be done once a day.

and PVP can be done ant any lvl.

There is 0, none, nada endgame solo content. Solo players get stuck at vr 10-11 and thats game over.

Rescorla_ESO · March 2015

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Your solution is that they waste man hours and money creating something that would make the necessity for grouping obsolete. Grouping which is the bread and butter of an MMO.

Grouping is not bread and butter of MMO, many players playing online together and interacting in various ways is. Really cant wait for dlcs to show up, then we can start voting with wallets. We will see if developing solo content is waste of man hours and money, or maybe we will see that many people don't want to pay for forced group conten

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THERE IS TOO MUCH SOLO CONTENT.

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BEST SETS AND GEAR ARE CRAFTED WITH LITTLE HASSLE.

so honestly I don't understand why you are trying to make this point when it should be the otherway around.

there is only like 3 dungeons endgame.

and then dailys which can only be done once a day.

and PVP can be done ant any lvl.

There is 0, none, nada endgame solo content. Solo players get stuck at vr 10-11 and thats game over.

When you completed Cadwell's Gold, you won the solo PVE game. Now you just need to wait until ZOS decides to release new solo content. When they eventually do, I imagine they will provide some mechanism for solo players to upgrade their current gear. However good that new gear is, it should never come close in power to the gear that drops in the harder endgame trials and raids.

Emma_Overload · March 2015

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Your solution is that they waste man hours and money creating something that would make the necessity for grouping obsolete. Grouping which is the bread and butter of an MMO.

Grouping is not bread and butter of MMO, many players playing online together and interacting in various ways is. Really cant wait for dlcs to show up, then we can start voting with wallets. We will see if developing solo content is waste of man hours and money, or maybe we will see that many people don't want to pay for forced group conten

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THERE IS TOO MUCH SOLO CONTENT.

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BEST SETS AND GEAR ARE CRAFTED WITH LITTLE HASSLE.

so honestly I don't understand why you are trying to make this point when it should be the otherway around.

there is only like 3 dungeons endgame.

and then dailys which can only be done once a day.

and PVP can be done ant any lvl.

There is 0, none, nada endgame solo content. Solo players get stuck at vr 10-11 and thats game over.

When you completed Cadwell's Gold, you won the solo PVE game. Now you just need to wait until ZOS decides to release new solo content. When they eventually do, I imagine they will provide some mechanism for solo players to upgrade their current gear. However good that new gear is, it should never come close in power to the gear that drops in the harder endgame trials and raids.

What you've just described is a recipe for a massive financial failure. Why? As soon as all the new console players reach VR10, they're going to be just as unhappy as many PC players are now, and for all the same reasons. If Wrothgar/Orsinium is released without a solid endgame experience for solo players, including FULL itemization parity with group/raid players, I guarantee you there will be a REVOLT. Zenimax will NOT be able to recover their investment in the development of all this content without players who are willing to pay for DLC. If the DLC supposedly intended for solo players does not provide the experience those players are expecting, that DLC will not sell!

Rescorla_ESO · March 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Your solution is that they waste man hours and money creating something that would make the necessity for grouping obsolete. Grouping which is the bread and butter of an MMO.

Grouping is not bread and butter of MMO, many players playing online together and interacting in various ways is. Really cant wait for dlcs to show up, then we can start voting with wallets. We will see if developing solo content is waste of man hours and money, or maybe we will see that many people don't want to pay for forced group conten

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THERE IS TOO MUCH SOLO CONTENT.

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BEST SETS AND GEAR ARE CRAFTED WITH LITTLE HASSLE.

so honestly I don't understand why you are trying to make this point when it should be the otherway around.

there is only like 3 dungeons endgame.

and then dailys which can only be done once a day.

and PVP can be done ant any lvl.

There is 0, none, nada endgame solo content. Solo players get stuck at vr 10-11 and thats game over.

When you completed Cadwell's Gold, you won the solo PVE game. Now you just need to wait until ZOS decides to release new solo content. When they eventually do, I imagine they will provide some mechanism for solo players to upgrade their current gear. However good that new gear is, it should never come close in power to the gear that drops in the harder endgame trials and raids.

What you've just described is a recipe for a massive financial failure. Why? As soon as all the new console players reach VR10, they're going to be just as unhappy as many PC players are now, and for all the same reasons. If Wrothgar/Orsinium is released without a solid endgame experience for solo players, including FULL itemization parity with group/raid players, I guarantee you there will be a REVOLT. Zenimax will NOT be able to recover their investment in the development of all this content without players who are willing to pay for DLC. If the DLC supposedly intended for solo players does not provide the experience those players are expecting, that DLC will not sell!

Is this your first MMO? I am not aware of any MMO ever made prior to TESO that had full itemization parity for solo players equal to group/raid players. Its really hard to take anyone who believes that is how a MMO should be designed seriously. Not one person who shares your opinion has even bothered to address the point I made earlier asking you why you NEED it. The solo content you play has had the difficulty nerfed so badly that if you actually had the Best in Slot endgame gear from trials and raids, your PVE solo content would be dumbed down to the point that it would be mind numbingly simple and boring.

Emma_Overload · March 2015

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Your solution is that they waste man hours and money creating something that would make the necessity for grouping obsolete. Grouping which is the bread and butter of an MMO.

Grouping is not bread and butter of MMO, many players playing online together and interacting in various ways is. Really cant wait for dlcs to show up, then we can start voting with wallets. We will see if developing solo content is waste of man hours and money, or maybe we will see that many people don't want to pay for forced group conten

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THERE IS TOO MUCH SOLO CONTENT.

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BEST SETS AND GEAR ARE CRAFTED WITH LITTLE HASSLE.

so honestly I don't understand why you are trying to make this point when it should be the otherway around.

there is only like 3 dungeons endgame.

and then dailys which can only be done once a day.

and PVP can be done ant any lvl.

There is 0, none, nada endgame solo content. Solo players get stuck at vr 10-11 and thats game over.

When you completed Cadwell's Gold, you won the solo PVE game. Now you just need to wait until ZOS decides to release new solo content. When they eventually do, I imagine they will provide some mechanism for solo players to upgrade their current gear. However good that new gear is, it should never come close in power to the gear that drops in the harder endgame trials and raids.

What you've just described is a recipe for a massive financial failure. Why? As soon as all the new console players reach VR10, they're going to be just as unhappy as many PC players are now, and for all the same reasons. If Wrothgar/Orsinium is released without a solid endgame experience for solo players, including FULL itemization parity with group/raid players, I guarantee you there will be a REVOLT. Zenimax will NOT be able to recover their investment in the development of all this content without players who are willing to pay for DLC. If the DLC supposedly intended for solo players does not provide the experience those players are expecting, that DLC will not sell!

Is this your first MMO? I am not aware of any MMO ever made prior to TESO that had full itemization parity for solo players equal to group/raid players. Its really hard to take anyone who believes that is how a MMO should be designed seriously. Not one person who shares your opinion has even bothered to address the point I made earlier asking you why you NEED it. The solo content you play has had the difficulty nerfed so badly that if you actually had the Best in Slot endgame gear from trials and raids, your PVE solo content would be dumbed down to the point that it would be mind numbingly simple and boring.

1) Who are YOU to decide for other players what gear they need or don't need? I think I'll decide for myself what gear I need. I say that solo players need best-in-slot gear as much as anyone, because the challenges we face when we try to solo "group" content are the HARDEST challenges in the game!

2) You make the false assumption that solo players only play solo content. I have news for you: the first thing many players do when the reach VR10 and finish Cadwell's Gold is go to Craglorn and try to finish leveling to VR14 there. Needless to say, most of the rewarding content is geared for 4 man groups (at least) and brutally difficult to solo, as are Veteran dungeons. Trials are physically IMPOSSIBLE to solo... by design!

3) No, it's not my first MMO, and yes, it's true that most MMOs are just as bad or even worse than ESO when it comes to endgame content for solo players. Is that a good excuse for not trying to do better? In my opinion, every MMO made since WoW has been a disappointment or outright failure because old fashioned MMO design does not address the needs of the very large population of solo-oriented players.

.

Rescorla_ESO · March 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Your solution is that they waste man hours and money creating something that would make the necessity for grouping obsolete. Grouping which is the bread and butter of an MMO.

Grouping is not bread and butter of MMO, many players playing online together and interacting in various ways is. Really cant wait for dlcs to show up, then we can start voting with wallets. We will see if developing solo content is waste of man hours and money, or maybe we will see that many people don't want to pay for forced group conten

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THERE IS TOO MUCH SOLO CONTENT.

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BEST SETS AND GEAR ARE CRAFTED WITH LITTLE HASSLE.

so honestly I don't understand why you are trying to make this point when it should be the otherway around.

there is only like 3 dungeons endgame.

and then dailys which can only be done once a day.

and PVP can be done ant any lvl.

There is 0, none, nada endgame solo content. Solo players get stuck at vr 10-11 and thats game over.

When you completed Cadwell's Gold, you won the solo PVE game. Now you just need to wait until ZOS decides to release new solo content. When they eventually do, I imagine they will provide some mechanism for solo players to upgrade their current gear. However good that new gear is, it should never come close in power to the gear that drops in the harder endgame trials and raids.

What you've just described is a recipe for a massive financial failure. Why? As soon as all the new console players reach VR10, they're going to be just as unhappy as many PC players are now, and for all the same reasons. If Wrothgar/Orsinium is released without a solid endgame experience for solo players, including FULL itemization parity with group/raid players, I guarantee you there will be a REVOLT. Zenimax will NOT be able to recover their investment in the development of all this content without players who are willing to pay for DLC. If the DLC supposedly intended for solo players does not provide the experience those players are expecting, that DLC will not sell!

Is this your first MMO? I am not aware of any MMO ever made prior to TESO that had full itemization parity for solo players equal to group/raid players. Its really hard to take anyone who believes that is how a MMO should be designed seriously. Not one person who shares your opinion has even bothered to address the point I made earlier asking you why you NEED it. The solo content you play has had the difficulty nerfed so badly that if you actually had the Best in Slot endgame gear from trials and raids, your PVE solo content would be dumbed down to the point that it would be mind numbingly simple and boring.

1) Who are YOU to decide for other players what gear they need or don't need? I think I'll decide for myself what gear I need. I say that solo players need best-in-slot gear as much as anyone, because the challenges we face when we try to solo "group" content are the HARDEST challenges in the game!

2) You make the false assumption that solo players only play solo content. I have news for you: the first thing many players do when the reach VR10 and finish Cadwell's Gold is go to Craglorn and try to finish leveling to VR14 there. Needless to say, most of the rewarding content is geared for 4 man groups (at least) and brutally difficult to solo, as are Veteran dungeons. Trials are physically IMPOSSIBLE to solo... by design!

3) No, it's not my first MMO, and yes, it's true that most MMOs are just as bad or even worse than ESO when it comes to endgame content for solo players. Is that a good excuse for not trying to do better? In my opinion, every MMO made since WoW has been a disappointment or outright failure because old fashioned MMO design does not address the needs of the very large population of solo-oriented players.

.

You are really having a hard time coming to grasp with the differences between NEED and WANT. ZOS decides what you NEED to complete the PVE solo content. Between crafted gear, mobs drops, and quest rewards, the quality of your gear that is easily acquirable is high enough to meet you NEEDS. Your problem is you WANT better gear (that you don't NEED in order to do solo PVE content) that you haven't earned and you don't want to put in the same level of effort that the players who are willing to do raids and trails are willing to put it.

mlstevens42_ESO · March 2015

Misconception of effort. Group content is not that difficult on it's own merits. Any difficulty is due to getting you and all other participants to do what is needed at the right time. Which after one gets the patterns down it is not at all difficult. In some games the hardest part of the group content was getting every one there so one could even start the instance.

This warped idea that because one groups and does instanced content makes you some how a better player is flawed. Therefore the idea that because one does a trial means you deserve better gear is flawed. I am all for getting a reward for doing the content....getting the best stuff just for doing it is more subjective. Those doing it think they have to have....and that they deserve it. A solo player is contending that because they do things alone it can be quite difficult and therefore they deserve a reward not by necessity the same but comparable.

The crafted gear is quite good and I am not sure any other sets are really needed save to give more variety say better against poison or fire sort of things. A different look perhaps... However I would welcome challenging solo/duo content for testing myself.

Emma_Overload · March 2015

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Your solution is that they waste man hours and money creating something that would make the necessity for grouping obsolete. Grouping which is the bread and butter of an MMO.

Grouping is not bread and butter of MMO, many players playing online together and interacting in various ways is. Really cant wait for dlcs to show up, then we can start voting with wallets. We will see if developing solo content is waste of man hours and money, or maybe we will see that many people don't want to pay for forced group conten

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THERE IS TOO MUCH SOLO CONTENT.

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BEST SETS AND GEAR ARE CRAFTED WITH LITTLE HASSLE.

so honestly I don't understand why you are trying to make this point when it should be the otherway around.

there is only like 3 dungeons endgame.

and then dailys which can only be done once a day.

and PVP can be done ant any lvl.

There is 0, none, nada endgame solo content. Solo players get stuck at vr 10-11 and thats game over.

When you completed Cadwell's Gold, you won the solo PVE game. Now you just need to wait until ZOS decides to release new solo content. When they eventually do, I imagine they will provide some mechanism for solo players to upgrade their current gear. However good that new gear is, it should never come close in power to the gear that drops in the harder endgame trials and raids.

What you've just described is a recipe for a massive financial failure. Why? As soon as all the new console players reach VR10, they're going to be just as unhappy as many PC players are now, and for all the same reasons. If Wrothgar/Orsinium is released without a solid endgame experience for solo players, including FULL itemization parity with group/raid players, I guarantee you there will be a REVOLT. Zenimax will NOT be able to recover their investment in the development of all this content without players who are willing to pay for DLC. If the DLC supposedly intended for solo players does not provide the experience those players are expecting, that DLC will not sell!

Is this your first MMO? I am not aware of any MMO ever made prior to TESO that had full itemization parity for solo players equal to group/raid players. Its really hard to take anyone who believes that is how a MMO should be designed seriously. Not one person who shares your opinion has even bothered to address the point I made earlier asking you why you NEED it. The solo content you play has had the difficulty nerfed so badly that if you actually had the Best in Slot endgame gear from trials and raids, your PVE solo content would be dumbed down to the point that it would be mind numbingly simple and boring.

1) Who are YOU to decide for other players what gear they need or don't need? I think I'll decide for myself what gear I need. I say that solo players need best-in-slot gear as much as anyone, because the challenges we face when we try to solo "group" content are the HARDEST challenges in the game!

2) You make the false assumption that solo players only play solo content. I have news for you: the first thing many players do when the reach VR10 and finish Cadwell's Gold is go to Craglorn and try to finish leveling to VR14 there. Needless to say, most of the rewarding content is geared for 4 man groups (at least) and brutally difficult to solo, as are Veteran dungeons. Trials are physically IMPOSSIBLE to solo... by design!

3) No, it's not my first MMO, and yes, it's true that most MMOs are just as bad or even worse than ESO when it comes to endgame content for solo players. Is that a good excuse for not trying to do better? In my opinion, every MMO made since WoW has been a disappointment or outright failure because old fashioned MMO design does not address the needs of the very large population of solo-oriented players.

.

You are really having a hard time coming to grasp with the differences between NEED and WANT. ZOS decides what you NEED to complete the PVE solo content. Between crafted gear, mobs drops, and quest rewards, the quality of your gear that is easily acquirable is high enough to meet you NEEDS. Your problem is you WANT better gear (that you don't NEED in order to do solo PVE content) that you haven't earned and you don't want to put in the same level of effort that the players who are willing to do raids and trails are willing to put it.

Did you even read my post? I didn't say I needed best-in-slot gear to complete "solo pve" content. I've ALREADY done all that stuff. I DO need the best possible gear to complete all the OTHER content, the content intended for groups. Currently I've been working on builds to farm Veteran Dungeons... solo. I'm not the only one doing this, either; see for yourself HERE.

If you don't think solo players put in the same level of effort as group players, you are simply wrong. Anything you can do with a tank and a bunch of healers covering your a**, we try to do ALL BY OURSELVES. You apparently have no idea how insanely difficult it is to solo end-game MMO content designed for groups, or you wouldn't be spouting this nonsense.

.

Thelon · March 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So explain to me the difference between giving 100% when playing solo and giving 100% when playing in a group ?
How is one any harder than the other ?

Group content requires organisation, communication, teamwork, cooperation, adaptability, class and role composition, knowledge and execution of group mechanics and use of synergies, to name a few.

Go spend an hour on Mantikora and Serpent, then go spend an hour soloing. It should be pretty obvious why one is harder than the other.

Emma_Overload · March 2015

Thelon wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So explain to me the difference between giving 100% when playing solo and giving 100% when playing in a group ?
How is one any harder than the other ?

Group content requires organisation, communication, teamwork, cooperation, adaptability, class and role composition, knowledge and execution of group mechanics and use of synergies, to name a few.

Go spend an hour on Mantikora and Serpent, then go spend an hour soloing. It should be pretty obvious why one is harder than the other.

Go spend an hour on Mantikora and Serpent ALONE, without 11 buddies backing you up. Then you'll understand what "harder" really means.

Valencer · March 2015

Some say games are about interesting choices. If I can go do an intensive 12-men raid and get a piece of powerful gear, or do a much easier (and it will be without the coordination requirement) solo instance that rewards the exact same piece of powerful gear, is that really an interesting choice?

Make it harder for myself to get a piece of gear just for the fun of grouping up? Yes, I like grouping. No, if I really want that piece of gear I'll just get it the easy way.

Not sure why anyone is talking about how much harder it is to solo a 4 (or 12) men instance than actually going there with a group... duh? The instance is balanced for group play.

Rescorla_ESO · March 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Your solution is that they waste man hours and money creating something that would make the necessity for grouping obsolete. Grouping which is the bread and butter of an MMO.

Grouping is not bread and butter of MMO, many players playing online together and interacting in various ways is. Really cant wait for dlcs to show up, then we can start voting with wallets. We will see if developing solo content is waste of man hours and money, or maybe we will see that many people don't want to pay for forced group conten

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THERE IS TOO MUCH SOLO CONTENT.

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BEST SETS AND GEAR ARE CRAFTED WITH LITTLE HASSLE.

so honestly I don't understand why you are trying to make this point when it should be the otherway around.

there is only like 3 dungeons endgame.

and then dailys which can only be done once a day.

and PVP can be done ant any lvl.

There is 0, none, nada endgame solo content. Solo players get stuck at vr 10-11 and thats game over.

When you completed Cadwell's Gold, you won the solo PVE game. Now you just need to wait until ZOS decides to release new solo content. When they eventually do, I imagine they will provide some mechanism for solo players to upgrade their current gear. However good that new gear is, it should never come close in power to the gear that drops in the harder endgame trials and raids.

What you've just described is a recipe for a massive financial failure. Why? As soon as all the new console players reach VR10, they're going to be just as unhappy as many PC players are now, and for all the same reasons. If Wrothgar/Orsinium is released without a solid endgame experience for solo players, including FULL itemization parity with group/raid players, I guarantee you there will be a REVOLT. Zenimax will NOT be able to recover their investment in the development of all this content without players who are willing to pay for DLC. If the DLC supposedly intended for solo players does not provide the experience those players are expecting, that DLC will not sell!

Is this your first MMO? I am not aware of any MMO ever made prior to TESO that had full itemization parity for solo players equal to group/raid players. Its really hard to take anyone who believes that is how a MMO should be designed seriously. Not one person who shares your opinion has even bothered to address the point I made earlier asking you why you NEED it. The solo content you play has had the difficulty nerfed so badly that if you actually had the Best in Slot endgame gear from trials and raids, your PVE solo content would be dumbed down to the point that it would be mind numbingly simple and boring.

1) Who are YOU to decide for other players what gear they need or don't need? I think I'll decide for myself what gear I need. I say that solo players need best-in-slot gear as much as anyone, because the challenges we face when we try to solo "group" content are the HARDEST challenges in the game!

2) You make the false assumption that solo players only play solo content. I have news for you: the first thing many players do when the reach VR10 and finish Cadwell's Gold is go to Craglorn and try to finish leveling to VR14 there. Needless to say, most of the rewarding content is geared for 4 man groups (at least) and brutally difficult to solo, as are Veteran dungeons. Trials are physically IMPOSSIBLE to solo... by design!

3) No, it's not my first MMO, and yes, it's true that most MMOs are just as bad or even worse than ESO when it comes to endgame content for solo players. Is that a good excuse for not trying to do better? In my opinion, every MMO made since WoW has been a disappointment or outright failure because old fashioned MMO design does not address the needs of the very large population of solo-oriented players.

.

You are really having a hard time coming to grasp with the differences between NEED and WANT. ZOS decides what you NEED to complete the PVE solo content. Between crafted gear, mobs drops, and quest rewards, the quality of your gear that is easily acquirable is high enough to meet you NEEDS. Your problem is you WANT better gear (that you don't NEED in order to do solo PVE content) that you haven't earned and you don't want to put in the same level of effort that the players who are willing to do raids and trails are willing to put it.

Did you even read my post? I didn't say I needed best-in-slot gear to complete "solo pve" content. I've ALREADY done all that stuff. I DO need the best possible gear to complete all the OTHER content, the content intended for groups. Currently I've been working on builds to farm Veteran Dungeons... solo. I'm not the only one doing this, either; see for yourself HERE.

If you don't think solo players put in the same level of effort as group players, you are simply wrong. Anything you can do with a tank and a bunch of healers covering your a**, we try to do ALL BY OURSELVES. You apparently have no idea how insanely difficult it is to solo end-game MMO content designed for groups, or you wouldn't be spouting this nonsense.

.

What a completely asinine, silly argument that has absolutely nothing to do with what the OP is asking for. The thread is about solo PVE content and now you are trying to change the subject to wanting better gear that will allow you to solo PVE content that is clearly designed for group. Since you claim to have already completed the raids/trials, then you already have access to the best gear in the game. Did you ever take the time to consider that since the best gear in the game still doesn't allow you to solo group PVE content, that perhaps ZOS never intended to give players that capability?

Emma_Overload · March 2015

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Your solution is that they waste man hours and money creating something that would make the necessity for grouping obsolete. Grouping which is the bread and butter of an MMO.

Grouping is not bread and butter of MMO, many players playing online together and interacting in various ways is. Really cant wait for dlcs to show up, then we can start voting with wallets. We will see if developing solo content is waste of man hours and money, or maybe we will see that many people don't want to pay for forced group conten

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THERE IS TOO MUCH SOLO CONTENT.

WE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BEST SETS AND GEAR ARE CRAFTED WITH LITTLE HASSLE.

so honestly I don't understand why you are trying to make this point when it should be the otherway around.

there is only like 3 dungeons endgame.

and then dailys which can only be done once a day.

and PVP can be done ant any lvl.

There is 0, none, nada endgame solo content. Solo players get stuck at vr 10-11 and thats game over.

When you completed Cadwell's Gold, you won the solo PVE game. Now you just need to wait until ZOS decides to release new solo content. When they eventually do, I imagine they will provide some mechanism for solo players to upgrade their current gear. However good that new gear is, it should never come close in power to the gear that drops in the harder endgame trials and raids.

What you've just described is a recipe for a massive financial failure. Why? As soon as all the new console players reach VR10, they're going to be just as unhappy as many PC players are now, and for all the same reasons. If Wrothgar/Orsinium is released without a solid endgame experience for solo players, including FULL itemization parity with group/raid players, I guarantee you there will be a REVOLT. Zenimax will NOT be able to recover their investment in the development of all this content without players who are willing to pay for DLC. If the DLC supposedly intended for solo players does not provide the experience those players are expecting, that DLC will not sell!

Is this your first MMO? I am not aware of any MMO ever made prior to TESO that had full itemization parity for solo players equal to group/raid players. Its really hard to take anyone who believes that is how a MMO should be designed seriously. Not one person who shares your opinion has even bothered to address the point I made earlier asking you why you NEED it. The solo content you play has had the difficulty nerfed so badly that if you actually had the Best in Slot endgame gear from trials and raids, your PVE solo content would be dumbed down to the point that it would be mind numbingly simple and boring.

1) Who are YOU to decide for other players what gear they need or don't need? I think I'll decide for myself what gear I need. I say that solo players need best-in-slot gear as much as anyone, because the challenges we face when we try to solo "group" content are the HARDEST challenges in the game!

2) You make the false assumption that solo players only play solo content. I have news for you: the first thing many players do when the reach VR10 and finish Cadwell's Gold is go to Craglorn and try to finish leveling to VR14 there. Needless to say, most of the rewarding content is geared for 4 man groups (at least) and brutally difficult to solo, as are Veteran dungeons. Trials are physically IMPOSSIBLE to solo... by design!

3) No, it's not my first MMO, and yes, it's true that most MMOs are just as bad or even worse than ESO when it comes to endgame content for solo players. Is that a good excuse for not trying to do better? In my opinion, every MMO made since WoW has been a disappointment or outright failure because old fashioned MMO design does not address the needs of the very large population of solo-oriented players.

.

You are really having a hard time coming to grasp with the differences between NEED and WANT. ZOS decides what you NEED to complete the PVE solo content. Between crafted gear, mobs drops, and quest rewards, the quality of your gear that is easily acquirable is high enough to meet you NEEDS. Your problem is you WANT better gear (that you don't NEED in order to do solo PVE content) that you haven't earned and you don't want to put in the same level of effort that the players who are willing to do raids and trails are willing to put it.

Did you even read my post? I didn't say I needed best-in-slot gear to complete "solo pve" content. I've ALREADY done all that stuff. I DO need the best possible gear to complete all the OTHER content, the content intended for groups. Currently I've been working on builds to farm Veteran Dungeons... solo. I'm not the only one doing this, either; see for yourself HERE.

If you don't think solo players put in the same level of effort as group players, you are simply wrong. Anything you can do with a tank and a bunch of healers covering your a**, we try to do ALL BY OURSELVES. You apparently have no idea how insanely difficult it is to solo end-game MMO content designed for groups, or you wouldn't be spouting this nonsense.

.

What a completely asinine, silly argument that has absolutely nothing to do with what the OP is asking for. The thread is about solo PVE content and now you are trying to change the subject to wanting better gear that will allow you to solo PVE content that is clearly designed for group. Since you claim to have already completed the raids/trials, then you already have access to the best gear in the game. Did you ever take the time to consider that since the best gear in the game still doesn't allow you to solo group PVE content, that perhaps ZOS never intended to give players that capability?

Again, you seem to have problems with reading comprehension. I never said I'd completed Trials. My point is that unless they open up Trials and other "endgame" content to solo players, people like the OP (and me) are going to keep asking for solo endgame content. There is plenty of other group content, such as Veteran Dungeons, which technically COULD be soloed, but in practice is insanely difficult, bordering on impossible. The reason for this is two-fold: 1) Veteran bosses often have mechanics that are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to thwart single players with unblockable CC immediately followed by massive, unavoidable damage and 2) ZoS has nerfed all the abilities that people used to use to solo group content when ESO was first released, including abilities that provided huge heals per second.

Given that state of affairs, it makes perfect sense that solo players attempting to complete the most difficult group content are demanding access to the best gear possible. Don't you see the problem? The developers have hidden the most powerful gear, the Valkyn Skoria set for example, inside the very content that solo players are struggling to complete! Of course Trials have been designed with little teleport pads to discourage (and torture) solo players, but the trash mobs in AA and HRC that CAN be accessed sometimes drop valuable loot and also present a novel challenge by themselves. Even confronting these so-called "trash mobs", it sure would be nice to have the best gear possible, because they hit HARD.

In any case, I'm not a quitter, I don't "QQ", and I'm never going to stop trying to conquer ALL the content in the game. I suspect many other players feel the same way. Threads like these are going to keep popping up until ZoS provides a proper endgame experience for ALL their paying customers... so get used to it!

thewisguyub17_ESO · March 2015

Let me be gin by saying I'm very much in favor of more solo content.

Not that I've said that, let me clear up a couple of misconceptions you may have about me based on that statement.

1- I like group content as well. Love it in fact. This in not an attack on group content.
2- I am not looking for "the best gear" or anything thing near it through solo content. I just want something to do that provides SOME progress/benefit/challenge for when I don't have the time or energy to devote to group-play. To be clear, this is about content, not gear
3- I am not asking for what end-game group content there is to be made soloable. I don't want a change in current content, I want additional solo content to be implemented.
4- I am, in fact, aware of a myriad of single-player games. This is not about trying to make ESO into Skyrim. This is about ESO being marketed and hyped as "not like other MMOs." It was supposed to provide a variety of solo, small-group, and large-group content at all levels. I just want them to keep true their word.
5- I do not claim to speak for anyone but myself. I am not trying to tell other people how to play the game. If you want nothing but group content, that's groovy! Go for that! I'm happy that so far this game has provided you with that. All the same, I've never believed I'm all that unique of a person, so I have to assume that if I'm feeling a bit lied to about what this game was supposed to entail, I'm probably not the only one.

[Edit: I feel I should add that this post applies specifically and only to end-game content. If anything, I agree with what many have said earlier, being that ESO could use a bit more variety in group-content during the leveling process. But that's a rant for another day/thread.

Rune_Relic · March 2015

Thelon wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So explain to me the difference between giving 100% when playing solo and giving 100% when playing in a group ?
How is one any harder than the other ?

Group content requires organisation, communication, teamwork, cooperation, adaptability, class and role composition, knowledge and execution of group mechanics and use of synergies, to name a few.

Go spend an hour on Mantikora and Serpent, then go spend an hour soloing. It should be pretty obvious why one is harder than the other.

Still doesn't explain the difference between giving 100% solo and giving 100% in a group.
How are you suddenly performing better and deserving more ?

Granted you are using a different skill set. You have new rules to learn. You still cant put I any more than 100% effort though.
The reward should simply depend on content difficulty...be that solo or group.
YOUR Reward depends on how much effort YOU put into it.
Nothing more and nothing less.

You fail solo you wipe. There is no room for failure....no room for mistakes. No one to watch your back. No one to carry you weaknesses in any area. No there isn't the coordination required for groups. I would say groups don't need the instense concentration and versatile builds of HARD solo content. You have to be good at everything...with considerably more limited skill slot variety and no uber power get out of jail free synergies.

It really is jack of all trade versatile builds [solo] vs specialist role builds [group].
They are two completely different playstyles and mentalities.

Could a solo dungeon be made that is just as hard to complete for that individual as a 12 man group trial is for 12 people ?

Rescorla_ESO · March 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Thelon wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So explain to me the difference between giving 100% when playing solo and giving 100% when playing in a group ?
How is one any harder than the other ?

Group content requires organisation, communication, teamwork, cooperation, adaptability, class and role composition, knowledge and execution of group mechanics and use of synergies, to name a few.

Go spend an hour on Mantikora and Serpent, then go spend an hour soloing. It should be pretty obvious why one is harder than the other.

Still doesn't explain the difference between giving 100% solo and giving 100% in a group.
How are you suddenly performing better and deserving more ?

Granted you are using a different skill set. You have new rules to learn. You still cant put I any more than 100% effort though.
The reward should simply depend on content difficulty...be that solo or group.
YOUR Reward depends on how much effort YOU put into it.
Nothing more and nothing less.

You fail solo you wipe. There is no room for failure....no room for mistakes. No one to watch your back. No one to carry you weaknesses in any area. No there isn't the coordination required for groups. I would say groups don't need the instense concentration and versatile builds of HARD solo content. You have to be good at everything...with considerably more limited skill slot variety and no uber power get out of jail free synergies.

It really is jack of all trade versatile builds [solo] vs specialist role builds [group].
They are two completely different playstyles and mentalities.

Could a solo dungeon be made that is just as hard to complete for that individual as a 12 man group trial is for 12 people ?

Solo dungeons could be made as difficult as a 12 man raid but the likelihood of that happening are close to nil. The difficulty of the PVE content in this game has been consistently nerfed over time because players whined it was too hard. The VR zones used to be so difficult that when the game was launched a lot of players teamed up with others to do them. If ZOS were to put in new solo content that was anywhere close to the difficulty of raids/trials, the forums would be inundated with whines and complaints.

horus777 · March 2015

Wow hard to read thru all this

I'd like for the Vet dungeons, DSA, etc. to scale down to a solo encounter simply so I can enjoy the content without grouping. I would love if it was really challenging but do-able. Would be good practice / familiarization for later grouping to actually complete the dungeon as a group. Not that one can't youtube research and wotnot.
As for rewards? Completing Cadwells for a blue stick didn't make me quit the game, I doubt subpar rewards from a solo vet dungeon would either. Although unique but not OP rewards would be refreshing for this type of challenge.

WraithAzraiel · March 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

2) You make the false assumption that solo players only play solo content.

Pretty sure it's not a false assumption if it's the label with which you identify most, otherwise, you'd just term yourself a player, without the added indentifier of solo or group.

So calling one's self a solo player pretty much pigeon-holes them, in the eyes of everyone who reads said label, into wanting, desiring, and participating in only solo content.

But that's just semantics.

Fact of the matter is and will remain, the best looted/dropped gear should be kept behind content requiring coordination and teamwork, otherwise it would lessen in value and prestige.

We work with what we're given. It's all we can do for now.

mlstevens42_ESO · March 2015

I think there is an assumption that a solo instance would be less difficult than a group instance. This does not have to be the case. I am sure there would be a lot of complaining that the solo version was to hard or would take to specific a build to complete if done properly. I know there are some leet peeps about that do as well whichever challenge they have to come up against doesn't matter if it is groups or solo. The thing is there are some things for the end game groups to do. Solo have nothing currently.

As pointed out there are some who do not have large blocks of time to devote to a group venture, they work odd hours or play during times of the day when players are few. Even if it is just that they prefer a type of play over another doesn't mean they are weak, stupid, unskilled or uncoordinated.

If the instances for solo are good it will take a good solid build with a bit of everything to complete. Their timing will have to be fantastic or they will die and have to try again as there is no real room for mistakes. Stand in fire dead....due to no other healer to save their butt. Run out of resources stam magic dead....due to no one else to take whatever has them in such a state out or draw aggro.

I honestly do not see group instances as being difficult or that complicated. People that do them get a chance to become good at a single role at a time. Sure one can end up witha doofus and it take longer or be more difficult because that one guy just can not stay alive due to standing in fire acid poison or what not. Build completely wrong do not have good equipment tries to melee everything in fights where you should really have ranged. These unfortunates aside with a set group things in general are pretty easy. Maybe you missed the time or some one lagged had one toe in the goop but usually runs are pretty smooth. I do not see that as being difficult.

So what then constitutes the reason for the extra special gear...the fact one is willing to do it over and over again to get said gear? Just cause you are willing to grab 3 other or 11 other peeps and do this once a day does not seem to be a good reason to get extra special rewards, at least not any more special then the things any one else would get for running the same things over and over solo or duo.

Sure this game I may not have attempted much in the way of end game.....I have been the big game hunter/dungeon runner/Raider in other games. What I have seen of the end game here has not changed my mind either. It is not hard once people know the pattern. If one does their role well things run smooth and it is pretty simple. So handing out the all of the special stuff to one type of player seems rather silly. I do not think a solo player needs the exact same sets really and to be honest I am not sure that those sets would do them much good. Different ones that suit them better though sure why not it is not hurting the groups as they have their own stuff that is geared more for their style of play. All I am suggesting to variety of types of game play and rewards that would benefit those different types. I do not think that is to much to ask.