WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

I think its a pity that each of those threads turns into a battle between Solo and Premade players.

In my opinion both things can co-exist in a well thought out MMO. Sure WOW and others don't serve this argument justice as they focus in groups, but hey there are other games too

The first step to give a solo player something for their money is accessibility. Craglorn, Trials, VR dungeons are inaccessible right now, either due the broken LFG, but also the sheer insane demands by people in chats. It would help to soften these obstacles, so that everyone who wants to go to Craglorn or a Trial will be able to do so. Same applies to guild traders, where only members can sell - same procedure of inaccessibility drives many solo gamers away from that content.

But if we turn our eyes away from Trials & Co. then there could be solo quest chains, chains that takes weeks to complete like at SWG. These then serve the solo gamer as a second way to reach high end items, new crafting traits etc.

The Trials are quicker, but they are based on luck still. Those quest chains would take much longer, but guarantee the solo player who would still use the benefits of an MMO (like in public dungeons now) access. This procedure would help them to get away from wrestling group leaders about spots and being excluded due their available time or personal sacrifices for guild memberships or TS.


The issue with ESO is that we have no group content from 1-VR10 and then all of a sudden the game is only playable in them. Same mistake WOW did with Wrath and it is still considered the biggest mistake of Blizzard in history.

A good MMO needs solo and group content, equally spread with similar achievements to gain. Excluding one or the other is bad.

Taking a page out of SWG's book with the long ass quest chains for solo-ers would be nice. But offering Trial-grade gear for solo content won't ever end well.

The term best could be seen as a case of its own.

For instance, Trial gear could give specific traits or stats to improve the performance of a group. It would then be better in Trials, but for instance not in AVA or questing-

I would like to see the quality of loot not based on "how much work was put into it", so that something is better than the rest. No, I think it would be nice to have gear designed for a purpose so that someone who does not do that content, wont be as good in that content like those who did participate in.

Someone who doesn't do a Trial but quest, might get an item set that improves his survivability against enemies not in dungeons. The person who does acquire gear in a dungeon will have a bonus XP / damage modifier for said content.

This would ensure that everyone has the "best" gear in his content and others would see "oh this is one of those in Trials", "oh this guy made the 4 month quest chain" etc.

Yes solo and group should both be viable means to achieve any objective.

1. The "MMO = group" is a strawman - massive multiplayer does not mean "group only". There is no group in there. It means lots of people sharing the same space. Wether to group, how many, who with is a personal CHOICE or a design decision.
2. The "because MMO" is also a strawman. Relying on previous game models to dictate how all future models shall be built is simply lame. ZOS has tried to create a unique product in the market place. If they mimicked everyone else they wouldn't have a unique product. They would just be a clone of <insert your bestest ancient MMO that everyone left because it was so awesome here>
3. The OP wasn't rude until everyone started chomping on his arse for the heathen suggestion of solo option in a game.
4. The group only model worked so well that everyone praised craglorn.....not!

I am quite surprised at some of the replies on this thread. There is obviously a lot of people here with preconceived ideas of what an MMO should be (based on years of baggage) rather than what it can be (to be welcoming to all and be inclusive rather than exclusive). I guess guilds are at risk if there is no group only agenda so it must be some kind of defence mechanism to generate such animosity.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Yes solo and group should both be viable means to achieve any objective.

1. The "MMO = group" is a strawman - massive multiplayer does not mean "group only". There is no group in there. It means lots of people sharing the same space. Wether to group, how many, who with is a personal CHOICE or a design decision.
2. The "because MMO" is also a strawman. Relying on previous game models to dictate how all future models shall be built is simply lame. ZOS has tried to create a unique product in the market place. If they mimicked everyone else they wouldn't have a unique product. They would just be a clone of <insert your bestest ancient MMO that everyone left because it was so awesome here>
3. The OP wasn't rude until everyone started chomping on his arse for the heathen suggestion of solo option in a game.
4. The group only model worked so well that everyone praised craglorn.....not!

I am quite surprised at some of the replies on this thread. There is obviously a lot of people here with preconceived ideas of what an MMO should be (based on years of baggage) rather than what it can be (to be welcoming to all and be inclusive rather than exclusive). I guess guilds are at risk if there is no group only agenda so it must be some kind of defence mechanism to generate such animosity.

I agree but the op is asking for solo only content (I.e. like the main story instances where none of your group mates can enter). As for definitions this is a massively multiplayer online game and the term multiplayer needs to be at the heart. If you can't enter an instance with a group what's the point of it being online at all?

Gidorick wrote: »

@Soloeus I agree that ESO should provide us with the opportunity to solo much of the group content, this is why I suggested Hirable NPC Companions here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/146133/hirable-npc-companion-concept/p1

Basically, this would give us solo-minded players NPCs that we can hire to allow us to not have to group, but we could have a group consisting of NPCs. While this wouldn't be a PERFECT solution it would go a long way into adding diversity of play into ESO.

Let me know what you think.

This would work for me.

Soloeus wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

And I don't want to insult or berate you, I want you to be successful. I want you to adapt and overcome. I want you and others like you to step out of your comfort zones and experience everything the game has to offer.

I want you to love it like I love it, even with all it's flaws.

I want you to be realistic. You creating this thread, isn't going to affect change.


Besides, there's already MORE solo content incoming. But I highly doubt it's going to offer Trial gear as quest rewards.

1. I don't want to "adapt and overcome" - this isn't real life, and there is no real life reward for doing so. There is only FUN and NOT FUN. There is no overcome. Either you are having fun or you aren't, done and done. To overcome not having fun, having fun is the only alternative - meaning, in essence, the only solution to all the woes of grouping is Solo Play.

2. I also don't want to experience everything the game has to offer. I cannot dedicate enough time to do DSA, or any of the Trials in Craglorn, for example. I just don't enjoy it, and don't want to experience it. But I don't want skipping this content to render me unable to compete in PVP, which is where I do have my group fun.

When I want to group, I do PVP. I don't enjoy other people when I want to PVE, but when I PVP, I am the opposite.

Ti3. Just like when everyone said the game would be pay to play by sub forever and it wasn't. Instead, change happened because the devs listened (I don't like the change, personally, but I can live with it).

Lastly, I can overlook the many many flaws in this game - the only thing I want - the ONLY thing I want - is to enjoy myself when I am playing. This means not having to perform content that I hate in order to advance.

What's wrong with doing PvP for PvP rewards? You seem to enjoy that content ...and as others have pointed out it combined with crafted sets can make quite competitive builds...

A quick google revealed that: 59% of females and 56.5% of males tend to group with other people, almost 20% of females and 24% of males play solo due to time constraints, 14.4% of females and 13.9% of males have no preference towards grouping or soloing and only 6.6% of females and 5.3% of males actually prefer to play alone.

Source: https://blog.rjmetrics.com/2009/06/24/who-plays-mmos-an-analysis-of-mmorpg-player-demographics-and-mmorpg-player-stereotypes/

I would class myself in the 24% of males that tend to solo because of time constraints. I can do group stuff at weekends but weekday evenings I tend to just do crafting things and collect resources in Upper Craglorn.

Now its only one study and from 2009 at that, but it does highlight that there is a significant solo population (around 25%) in MMOs on average, and (delving into supposition here) this being an MMO based on a single player intellectual property it is likely that it would have a higher solo population (although, by now, many may have left). Therefore I would say that there is enough of a population to justify content aimed at that population, contrary to some assertions in this thread.

However I personally feel that solo only, and for that matter group only, content is a mistake. People often cite that the game is solo from 1-vr10, this is not quite correct, it is soloable, but it does not prescribe grouping. It is both groupable and soloable. This, I feel, has to be the goal with all content, even end game / max level, it seems like an obvious mistake that ZOS release content that specifically excludes sections of the PvE player base. If this could be achieved with all content it would increase the appeal of the game to more players and therefore more income for ZOS, and more ESO for the rest of us.

I appreciate that this would create problems when it came to difficulty, if an encounter is to be soloable it must therefore be easy for a group. So it would also require some sort of difficulty setting that scaled the player and was controlled by the player, but that is another thread entirely.

Two final points: I play ESO for fun, that is the be-all and end-all for me, so, I admit, I don't understand the competitive mindset. As others have pointed out, some of the best gear is craftable, or PvP purchasable, so, and it is a genuine question, what is the big deal about trials equipment being exclusive? If there is no inherent superiority to it, is it just the unique look of it that must be kept exclusive?

Secondly: a lot of posts can be summarised as saying that the definition of MMO is group end game, that's the way it is, everyone does it but what makes a product successful is often what it can provide that is unique to it. ESO has this huge single player intellectual property, it should be leveraged to the max to make it stand out from the competition.

TLDR: there's enough solo players to justify soloable end game content, this should not be at the expense of groupable end game content and breaking from MMORPG tradition can be a good thing, bringing in new revenue streams and improving the all round game. More profit = More ESO.

Keron wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I am quite surprised at some of the replies on this thread. There is obviously a lot of people here with preconceived ideas of what an MMO should be (based on years of baggage) rather than what it can be (to be welcoming to all and be inclusive rather than exclusive). I guess guilds are at risk if there is no group only agenda so it must be some kind of defence mechanism to generate such animosity.

While I am of the firm opinion that the reply to OP that I posted earlier in this thread does not fall into the category that you refer to, I still feel the need to "defend" the MMO position a little.

I agree with what you said that an MMO does not need to be group-only just because it has been this way always. Tradition is the fastest way to stagnation.

What I do not agree is that the rewards for both need to be the same. The added level of strategy inherent to group play can and should be rewarded always.

So, in essence: Yes, there needs to be challenging content that makes Solo (and preferably also Duo) players happy. Yes it is as much important as the group content. Yes it should also be rewarding in the sense that it gives access to high end equipment. No, it should never make the same top end equipment available as group content.

I can, as a maximum, accept things like @Audigy proposed in his/her post: Items that confer very strong bonuses but which are restricted to be active only as long as you are not in a group. The moment you group up, these bonuses deactivate completely.

That would be a compromise that I could agree to.

EDIT: To add one thing: I am a solo/duo only player. I go around either alone or in group with my wife. I have not been in any veteran group instance let alone trial. I am not member of a PvP guild, I enjoy Cyrodiil as a lone wolf. I am not a member of any kind of guild, since my schedule even guarantees being kicked from trading guilds regularly for being inactive.

Yes. I understand where you are coming from.
But more players can take on a bigger challenge anyway.
You have 8x the players ...you be able to face 8x the danger.
[so yes you should get 8x the reward]
But how is that any different from 1x the players facing 1x the danger ?
At the end of the day everyone has to give 100%.
You cant give more than 100% individually.
You can only player "your own" part

You say group play is more difficult.
I say no...
Yes you have to coordinate..but your friends can carry you when you slip up.
When you are alone you have to play tank/dps/healer all at once and tackle every threat.....rather than just a% of them.
You have to be much more widely skilled individually.
A 4 man group has 40 actives and 8 ultis at their disposal to face any danger.
A solo only has 10 actives and 2 ultis to face down all kinds of threats.

Group vs Solo reward.
My opinion is there should have been solo skill trees and group skill trees.
There should have been 1-50 solo training experience and 1-50 group training experience.
Then and only then....scalable endgame content should have been available.

{edit: Oh yes...group play gets synergies to make them vastly more powerful than solo play.}

Before 10-15 years I was also no-lifer playing almost 24/7. At this times started most of MMO games, some of them exist to this days. So I understand people who do not understand people who demand more solo content (especial "end game" content). But time is going and people like me are older now, do not have so much time for playing, but still loving play MMORPG games.
So in modern MMORPG is suicide for them forcing people group for "high challenging end game content". I hate PvP (I do not understand what is funny on killing another "people", that´s not enjoying that´s sad) so I don´t understand, why at this moment, one of the most reward PvE content is placed in PvP zone - people killing me from behind during fishing, hmm, that´s is so brave from them... pff.
And I don´t like so much playing in group, no time and no patience for do it. I understand group need content -- but I do not understand forcing to group. For example Craglorn quest - I´m able do it solo, but I can not finish the quest, because I need next three people for only step on some stone --- that is very stupid artificial barrier. If developers want some quest complete with more people, change difficulty, but this solution is frustrating for people. And the same is scaling group dungeons - I know, there are the ways how bypass it, but I take pleasure owerleveled dungeons and than do it solo, this is gone on now. And yes, soloing Craglorn delves and quests is very funny - first challenge content in the game from beginning.

So one of the ZOS marketing blockbuster was : "Play as you want." So I say, give us this your promise. That´s so big problem give as more option´s - group or solo after entering zone, delves, etc.? All group of players will be happy - and dev will have less job, doing two zones in one
Majority of player base of this game are casual solo players, RPs ,TES and LORE funs - not so much competitive with no-lifers, min/maxers, PvPs, younger people with more time etc - but still enjoying this game. And I think we are very loyal player base but not so noisy as another players - no time follow forum and write here. And we of course want to have also access to much content as is possible.

Soloeus wrote: »

The one thing I do care about is this topic getting attention from ZOS.

Perhaps submit a ticket then....Zos reads all tickets....

Well they're making an entire zone based on solo content where players can test themselves on their own.

However the game needs more group content if you ask me, outside of PVP, Dungeons & Trials there is just no need to group up. You can play all the core zones level 1 - VR10 without ever having to work with another player.

Since release they have made the game far easier to play, you can solo most world bosses and dolmens once you're into the VR levels.

OP you have to have understand that while you may call it a strawman argument, this is an MMO. The came at its core was designed on the idea of players working with each other, that's why it's an online game and not another in the single player TES series.

Pure solo players shouldn't every be the primary focus of an MMO game, because a majority of the players come to play the game with others to overcome hard group challenges.

Turelus wrote: »

Well they're making an entire zone based on solo content where players can test themselves on their own.

However the game needs more group content if you ask me, outside of PVP, Dungeons & Trials there is just no need to group up. You can play all the core zones level 1 - VR10 without ever having to work with another player.

Since release they have made the game far easier to play, you can solo most world bosses and dolmens once you're into the VR levels.

OP you have to have understand that while you may call it a strawman argument, this is an MMO. The came at its core was designed on the idea of players working with each other, that's why it's an online game and not another in the single player TES series.

Pure solo players shouldn't every be the primary focus of an MMO game, because a majority of the players come to play the game with others to overcome hard group challenges.

But can a new player solo world bosses/ dolmens / delves and group dungeons ?
Has the content been dummed down or do we find it easier with experience, level and CS ?
What you consider soloable is groupable to new players... at least that's what zone chat tells me.

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

So people don't want to play in groups for the challenge, it's just for the (shared) rewards? And everybody would abandon grouping (with all of its strategies and tactics) for the lesser challenge of playing Skyrim online?

It's a result of decades of min/maxing. You can not "win" an mmo. You don't "finish" an mmo. Therefore many people grasp onto other means by which to feel they accomplished and measure said accomplishment.

Many still play for the teamwork and challenge, but there is always the overhead of progression and scaled content.

Typically this occurs by having increasingly difficult content lead (via gear only acquired via previous content) to more difficult content (via gear only acquired in previous difficult content).

If you could progress via solo (without ever having setbacks resulting from other people's stupidity)... Many would choose that over the opposite because it doesn't require either 1) rolling the dice on a pug or 2) fostering actual virtual relationships with strangers to find like minded players while sorting out the chaff or dragging people you actually know into the game and hoping your schedule match.

If the OP isn't going to join groups to run veteran dungeons, raids and trials, why does he want the gear he can acquire soloing to be as good as endgame raid gear? That makes zero sense. Crafted gear is more than good enough to complete any solo content in the game, which is ridiculously easy already. I stopped upgrading my crafted gear while working on VR levels just to make the game more challenging. Also, expecting gear that you can acquire easily solo to be as good as the gear it takes a raid team working together, often failing multiple times before they succeed is beyond silly. Be content with the quality of gear you earned by yourself