Siege Damage Intended to hit for 24k?

Evergnar · March 2015

xDOVAHKIINx wrote: »

Today I saw groups of 30 use siege on groups of 10 and less. PvP is just pathetic at this point

^This
Zenimax pvp crew must be the dumbest freak'n people on the planet to implement something like this.

Phoenix99 · March 2015

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Wise words, shame non of the siege dmg defenders will understand that.

What I understand is that Huntler tries to make people realize that his own mentality of what should be a mmorpg game is in reality the mentality of a battleground environment. Cyrodiil is large scale open world pvp with keeps to assault. Just like Wintergrasp in Wow, you have siege engines to assist players. And they do a *** of damage, as intended.

Key word you used "assist players", not replace any other form of combat as its with such absurd dmg. ESO is not Battlefield 4, one shotting should not happen in mmo no matter what hits you, its fps domain. And Huntler idea of mmo is very accurate by any standards.

As Agrippa and other great members of this community pointed out several times, if you get one-shotted by a siege projectile, you are a glass cannon type of character and it's time for you to spec and gear accordingly to face the thruth. nuff said

In a well designed game, there is a room for:
- tanks
- healers
- and glass canon archetypes

Well, this is even the basis of PVP.

and there still is place for glass canons, just dont get hit by the siege weapon.... i mean, unless you are building a melee glass canon (which is then stupid) then you should have zero problem with kiting siege, I can do it as a melee/ranged hybrid, so can you (today got 1 hit killed by treb and only beca\use i thought I can stay 1 more second to shoot my stuff).

Sorry, but did you play an MMO before?
Just asking, because you are pretending that a melee character can't be a glass canon. We're playing in a team, with one or more healers, you know?

But yes, you are right: in ESO it's just not possible to do that, and it's one one numerous issues of this game: being too limited in the role and build, and forcing people to have all the same stuff and template.

melee glass canon works, just not during the sieges.... I mean, you still can gank people with it, or stealth to the back and kill siege crews in open field combat or even during the counter attack when besieged... just do not expect to use it near the walls when the enemy is defending the keep, it is rather obvious, no?

The only time siege equipment I've seen to be used to good effect is during the castle defense/attack (depending on the map layout and tactics), in the field you do not see much siege, because some NB/vamp will just come and eat your face

Obviously, if the group of 10 has better defensive position it is a good idea to flush them out with siege equipment out of there, why risk and let them fight on their terms instead of yours? I repeat, I have yet to see siege being used to super effect n the open field battle. It has it's place during the keep fights, and some skirmishes near resources, bridges, gatehouses... that's it. If you get killed by it in other places, you are probably just bad....

Played today 8h in Cyrodiil, I died from siege equipment twice, while around a dozen of times from other players fighting me in melee...

Gravord · March 2015

Evergnar wrote: »

xDOVAHKIINx wrote: »

Today I saw groups of 30 use siege on groups of 10 and less. PvP is just pathetic at this point

^This
Zenimax pvp crew must be the dumbest freak'n people on the planet to implement something like this.

At this point im not sure if they actually know for what term "pvp" stands for.

Ryuho · March 2015

Kuro1n wrote: »

24k? Doesn't sound so bad after all.
And you know what? I don't mind, I think the game is waaaaaay better now.

Nope i don't agree with you. IMO pvp became even bigger zerg fest.. Ppls started to create smaller, organised grps, u won't meet now 1 ganker, but 10 in hide and for sure som1 with fire balista, especially if he/she notice 10 guys from opposite faction arriving.. So pro, lets ambush with balistas!

Besides, i saw lvl 10 player in TB (EU) whos soloed with fire trebu a farm.. Seriously, @ZOS do u guys realy allow to soloing a resource for lvl 10...

When i saw patch note i thought "oh cool maybe zerglins time will be over" but instead of that i feel its even bigger zerg fest now, and small scale PVP is almost on extinct.. Ofc we can argue, there was no "small scale", but trust me it was! U could find cool fights 1 vs 1, sometimes 2 others came, u still could win, but now, u fight 1 vs 1, 2 others appear, one of them place fire balista, and u just die casue mighty flame bolt poped on ur face..

Lava_Croft · March 2015

164k+ damage with a single stone trebuchet shot on a DC blob that seemingly forgot about the siege equipment buff. Good times!

frozywozy · March 2015

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Wise words, shame non of the siege dmg defenders will understand that.

What I understand is that Huntler tries to make people realize that his own mentality of what should be a mmorpg game is in reality the mentality of a battleground environment. Cyrodiil is large scale open world pvp with keeps to assault. Just like Wintergrasp in Wow, you have siege engines to assist players. And they do a *** of damage, as intended.

Key word you used "assist players", not replace any other form of combat as its with such absurd dmg. ESO is not Battlefield 4, one shotting should not happen in mmo no matter what hits you, its fps domain. And Huntler idea of mmo is very accurate by any standards.

As Agrippa and other great members of this community pointed out several times, if you get one-shotted by a siege projectile, you are a glass cannon type of character and it's time for you to spec and gear accordingly to face the thruth. nuff said

In a well designed game, there is a room for:
- tanks
- healers
- and glass canon archetypes

Well, this is even the basis of PVP.

I've never said that there was no room for glass cannon type of character. But like I mentioned before, if you wanna play the squishy role and do huge deeps, then you should consider ganking &/or staying behind during sieges and keep an eye on flanks for incoming stealth assaults from infantry, but you're definitely not going to be able to siege and tank the counter-siege, you ARE squishy.

technohic · March 2015

I like that it is a real threat, and it has seemed to make the fights flow a bit differently; but it could use to be toned down just a tad. Maybe ~15%. I want it to stay deadly but not to where it is the main focus.

kitsinni · March 2015

How about this for an idea make siege for taking out walls and players for killing other players. Oil should be the only siege for taking out players, siege should destroy walls.

Simply put siege is the easiest, least skilled, highest damage attack in game and can be purchased.

B2P = make purchasable things stronger in game. It's part of the overall strategy.

.. Can't fix lag lets thing the zerg with siege

Any halfway defended keep not maxed on siege ever? Avoid the red means avoid fighting or even attempting to fight. I don't think a lot of these people even PvP regularly.

Olysja · March 2015

even the bridge is so *** funny now. just wow. Kris @Lava_Croft come with me mateeee let's siege the world

Giraffon · March 2015

I played in Azura's Star last night for a couple hours. For better or worse, the changes to siege have radically changed the game. I have almost come to the conclusion that keep battles are no longer fun. For 90 minutes all we did was exchange siege fire with DC at Arrius mine. They knocked our walls down once, but we kept siege at the break point and they never pushed it. We put the walls back up and kept exchanging fire. It got boring.

Still love PvP, but gonna' take a break from siege scenes. Resource raids, ganking, and some PvE for me. I don't like sitting in one spot that long.

trimsic_ESO · March 2015

Phoenix99 wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Wise words, shame non of the siege dmg defenders will understand that.

What I understand is that Huntler tries to make people realize that his own mentality of what should be a mmorpg game is in reality the mentality of a battleground environment. Cyrodiil is large scale open world pvp with keeps to assault. Just like Wintergrasp in Wow, you have siege engines to assist players. And they do a *** of damage, as intended.

Key word you used "assist players", not replace any other form of combat as its with such absurd dmg. ESO is not Battlefield 4, one shotting should not happen in mmo no matter what hits you, its fps domain. And Huntler idea of mmo is very accurate by any standards.

As Agrippa and other great members of this community pointed out several times, if you get one-shotted by a siege projectile, you are a glass cannon type of character and it's time for you to spec and gear accordingly to face the thruth. nuff said

In a well designed game, there is a room for:
- tanks
- healers
- and glass canon archetypes

Well, this is even the basis of PVP.

and there still is place for glass canons, just dont get hit by the siege weapon.... i mean, unless you are building a melee glass canon (which is then stupid) then you should have zero problem with kiting siege, I can do it as a melee/ranged hybrid, so can you (today got 1 hit killed by treb and only beca\use i thought I can stay 1 more second to shoot my stuff).

Sorry, but did you play an MMO before?
Just asking, because you are pretending that a melee character can't be a glass canon. We're playing in a team, with one or more healers, you know?

But yes, you are right: in ESO it's just not possible to do that, and it's one one numerous issues of this game: being too limited in the role and build, and forcing people to have all the same stuff and template.

melee glass canon works, just not during the sieges.... I mean, you still can gank people with it, or stealth to the back and kill siege crews in open field combat or even during the counter attack when besieged... just do not expect to use it near the walls when the enemy is defending the keep, it is rather obvious, no?

It's rather obvious that you have no MMO experience.

Huntler · March 2015

Cody wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Skill in a MMO is not really spamming buttons or skills, although there is a minor impact of it (obviously correct timings, reactions, etc. are important). Skill gets involved with 2 primary components: Planning and During. The planning phase is half of what makes a MMO and corresponds to skill and it happens days, weeks, etc. before you do any fight. With siege, planning is entirely removed. The "During" phase when it comes to skill is spatial awareness such as not standing in red, blocking certain attacks, bashing others, roll dodging when needing to, correctly timing attacks/combos, etc.

Now count all of those above items that I believe (and hopefully you do too) impact skill, and tell me.... how many are involved with siege? How many are involved with the other option (aka fighting).

you just told everyone how to dodge siege and called it "half of what makes an MMO"

No I didn't, but thanks for simplifying the complex point of different impacting features into that one sentence. It really muddies the message.

Agrippa_Invisus · March 2015

Played around with a build that had 38K HPs.

Never died to siege, even getting hit by two at once (meatbag and fire ballista to inform). Got to feel like I made a major difference in some keep defenses as well by being able to move, redeploy siege, and suffer incoming fire.

OTOH, in the open field, I couldn't kill anyone. I did on a couple occasions drag nightblades banging on my armor from a considerable ways out to a keep wall before they gave up.

Tradeoffs.

In a group environment where I had to move and kill, I'd probably go with different gear/skill bars. This would leave me less tanky and more capable of dealing damage, transforming my role from tank to DPS.

Gravord · March 2015

Olysja wrote: »

even the bridge is so *** funny now. just wow. Kris @Lava_Croft come with me mateeee let's siege the world

Broken bs mechanic for nabsters loving 1 button gameplay. Dark dark times. No idea how "pvp team" from ZOS could figure such idiotic system.

Agrippa_Invisus · March 2015

Gravord wrote: »

Olysja wrote: »

even the bridge is so *** funny now. just wow. Kris @Lava_Croft come with me mateeee let's siege the world

Broken bs mechanic for nabsters loving 1 button gameplay. Dark dark times. No idea how "pvp team" from ZOS could figure such idiotic system.

A pain train guild team didn't take the middle bridge and come up behind all those players and wreck them while they're still trying to turn their ponderously slow trebs around?

For shame.

EDIT: I will be clear about this, they need to remove any sort of basic player ability buffing siege damage. Champion point expenditures should do nothing to how hard your siege hits for (currently it does). Dropping a standard and sitting in it for 20% additional damage should not boost your siege damage (currently it does). And on an on. Siege should hit for the listed values (+50% if vamp + fire), and nothing more without the aid of an Emperor passive or something from the Support/Assault lines.

DHale · March 2015

I love the rage, one button no skill? As in on button impulse and one button bats and one button flame lash or one button talons. Many pvp players are one button monsters. Now it’s one button wrecking blow and one button meteors. It’s not going to be nerfed it did what they wanted us to do, we are spreading out. I love it. I would make the DOTS click slower and would decrease the price of soul gems a little and make purge and siege shield cheaper to cast but keep the damage as is. It has single handedly reduced the bat population significantly. They carry rabies you know.

Gravord · March 2015

DHale wrote: »

I love the rage, one button no skill? As in on button impulse and one button bats and one button flame lash or one button talons. Many pvp players are one button monsters. Now it’s one button wrecking blow and one button meteors. It’s not going to be nerfed it did what they wanted us to do, we are spreading out. I love it. I would make the DOTS click slower and would decrease the price of soul gems a little and make purge and siege shield cheaper to cast but keep the damage as is. It has single handedly reduced the bat population significantly. They carry rabies you know.

You have response to what you say page earlier:

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

What exactly is skillful about point and click siege? Full reliance on items (isn't that what you are with siege?)? Are you that blind?

I could show a video of a guy spamming 1 skill all day and it would still likely show more skill. You want to know why (note this is a dumbed down example to show how ludicrous the comparison is yet still is a better example of skill)? Because the player spamming that 1 skill would have put a lot of thought, effort, and planning into making that build work. Why again you ask? Because that player needed to go out and find/couple the right gear sets together to optimize the build for the sole purpose of that ability (whatever it is). Not only did that player spend time on a gear set to optimize that build, he/she also put together the other skills on the bar to optimize it. Even if only 1 ability is being spammed, that player is running other abilities to support it passively. Perhaps there are escapes on the bar, perhaps there are abilities with passive bonuses, etc. In addition, that player needs to then succeed in using this ability around other enemies (possibly coordinating with teammates).

As I said before this is the simplest, dumbest example I can give of a player using skills to be "skillful" and its still better than siege spam. Because with siege you remove entirely half of what makes an MMO, an MMO. Gear/build customization.

Skill in a MMO is not really spamming buttons or skills, although there is a minor impact of it (obviously correct timings, reactions, etc. are important). Skill gets involved with 2 primary components: Planning and During. The planning phase is half of what makes a MMO and corresponds to skill and it happens days, weeks, etc. before you do any fight. With siege, planning is entirely removed. The "During" phase when it comes to skill is spatial awareness such as not standing in red, blocking certain attacks, bashing others, roll dodging when needing to, correctly timing attacks/combos, etc.

Now count all of those above items that I believe (and hopefully you do too) impact skill, and tell me.... how many are involved with siege? How many are involved with the other option (aka fighting).

In addition to that, your impulse spam example. If its one guy doing it, even if he spend time and effort for leveling skills, gearing up and so on, he will still be farmed. It require at least minimal coordination from team, actual building team, speccing them all to support each other. While siege nab dont have to do anything else than visiting shop once a week for 100 balistas. Risk vs reward and effort vs reward, both are totally broken with siege having so much dmg.

Observant · March 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Played around with a build that had 38K HPs.

Never died to siege, even getting hit by two at once (meatbag and fire ballista to inform). Got to feel like I made a major difference in some keep defenses as well by being able to move, redeploy siege, and suffer incoming fire.

OTOH, in the open field, I couldn't kill anyone. I did on a couple occasions drag nightblades banging on my armor from a considerable ways out to a keep wall before they gave up.

Tradeoffs.

In a group environment where I had to move and kill, I'd probably go with different gear/skill bars. This would leave me less tanky and more capable of dealing damage, transforming my role from tank to DPS.

I'll keep you up tonight, promise. Go back to DPS!

I believe that 25k+ health is sufficient, as a healer I had to respec and put 30 points into health, but with damage shields and prompt purging, I can take reasonable siege fire with ease and hardly feel the pressure.

Big pet peeve of mine right now though is that my teammates aren't getting the purify synergy prompt as quick as they should be.

Huntler · March 2015

Observant wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Played around with a build that had 38K HPs.

Never died to siege, even getting hit by two at once (meatbag and fire ballista to inform). Got to feel like I made a major difference in some keep defenses as well by being able to move, redeploy siege, and suffer incoming fire.

OTOH, in the open field, I couldn't kill anyone. I did on a couple occasions drag nightblades banging on my armor from a considerable ways out to a keep wall before they gave up.

Tradeoffs.

In a group environment where I had to move and kill, I'd probably go with different gear/skill bars. This would leave me less tanky and more capable of dealing damage, transforming my role from tank to DPS.

I'll keep you up tonight, promise. Go back to DPS!

I believe that 25k+ health is sufficient, as a healer I had to respec and put 30 points into health, but with damage shields and prompt purging, I can take reasonable siege fire with ease and hardly feel the pressure.

Big pet peeve of mine right now though is that my teammates aren't getting the purify synergy prompt as quick as they should be.

I talked about this earlier with other heals, but this change has basically killed efficient purge, purify synergy in my book. Purifying ritual is still good for other things, but you really need someone using cleanse and none of the other options to even remotely try and counteract that dot damage. Efficient purge isn't enough because the damage has really already been done. At least cleanse sort of undoes SOME of the damage.

I was already running cleanse, but every now and then if we had someone else I'd use purifying ritual for the extra healing output and 30% boost, now I don't see myself affording the slot really ever. Plenty of talk of "avoid" the red, but if you're a group pushing a zerg there is only so much you can do, especially when fighting near/in a keep. You will get hit by siege or you will never fight in those situations. Simple as that.

Glurin · March 2015

DHale wrote: »

I love the rage, one button no skill? As in on button impulse and one button bats and one button flame lash or one button talons. Many pvp players are one button monsters. Now it’s one button wrecking blow and one button meteors. It’s not going to be nerfed it did what they wanted us to do, we are spreading out. I love it. I would make the DOTS click slower and would decrease the price of soul gems a little and make purge and siege shield cheaper to cast but keep the damage as is. It has single handedly reduced the bat population significantly. They carry rabies you know.

No kidding. Siege isn't even a particularly good "one button no skill". You set it up and the guys you're aiming at are more to the right. You target and click, and you're turning, and you're turning, and you're turning, and you're turning, and fire! Now you're watching that rock fly through the air, and grabbing a cup of tea, maybe reading another chapter in your favorite book and it finally hits the ground. Yay! You can attack again! Just gotta reload this thing here..... Reloading.... Reloading.... Reloading....

Lava_Croft · March 2015

The changes to siege damage are simply awesome and have greatly improved the overall PvP experience.

Arki · March 2015

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

Skill in a MMO is not really spamming buttons or skills, although there is a minor impact of it (obviously correct timings, reactions, etc. are important). Skill gets involved with 2 primary components: Planning and During. The planning phase is half of what makes a MMO and corresponds to skill and it happens days, weeks, etc. before you do any fight. With siege, planning is entirely removed. The "During" phase when it comes to skill is spatial awareness such as not standing in red, blocking certain attacks, bashing others, roll dodging when needing to, correctly timing attacks/combos, etc.

Now count all of those above items that I believe (and hopefully you do too) impact skill, and tell me.... how many are involved with siege? How many are involved with the other option (aka fighting).

There are two kinds of planning involved in a fight, its the planning of your build/equipment for the skirmishes and there's the greater battle plan involving positioning, siege and maybe multiple coordinated strike teams.

During the fight you need spatial awareness such as not standing in red, roll dodging when needing to, and also quick thinking about where to move the fight, and to know where you weak spots/blind spots are in any given scenario. This applies to the whole fight, siege or no siege. Actually hard hitting siege increases the need for awareness and the ability to change tactics quickly both alone and as a group imo.

So your rethorical question does not convince me that siege requires no skill in planning or duration of a fight, on the contrary it adds another dimension of planning and even more need of sitational awareness during a fight.

I always look around me to see if seige is getting deployed - because then I know where my next target is

EDIT: And no, i dont just deploy a siege as a counter, i charge in alone or with a friend, or sneak around to flank the siegers with a surprise attack!

Siege make strategically good positions in the terrain/battlefield more important. I like that!

But siege should maybe take longer to deploy, it should allways be a high risk operation to set up.

Gravord · March 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The changes to siege damage are simply awesome and have greatly improved the overall PvP experience.

Not sure if troll or 0 skills nab.

Lava_Croft · March 2015

Gravord wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The changes to siege damage are simply awesome and have greatly improved the overall PvP experience.

Not sure if troll or 0 skills nab.

I'm a '0 skills nab'.

Gravord · March 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The changes to siege damage are simply awesome and have greatly improved the overall PvP experience.

Not sure if troll or 0 skills nab.

I'm a '0 skills nab'.

I trust your words so gave you "agree" on post

Arki wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

Skill in a MMO is not really spamming buttons or skills, although there is a minor impact of it (obviously correct timings, reactions, etc. are important). Skill gets involved with 2 primary components: Planning and During. The planning phase is half of what makes a MMO and corresponds to skill and it happens days, weeks, etc. before you do any fight. With siege, planning is entirely removed. The "During" phase when it comes to skill is spatial awareness such as not standing in red, blocking certain attacks, bashing others, roll dodging when needing to, correctly timing attacks/combos, etc.

Now count all of those above items that I believe (and hopefully you do too) impact skill, and tell me.... how many are involved with siege? How many are involved with the other option (aka fighting).

There are two kinds of planning involved in a fight, its the planning of your build/equipment for the skirmishes and there's the greater battle plan involving positioning, siege and maybe multiple coordinated strike teams.

During the fight you need spatial awareness such as not standing in red, roll dodging when needing to, and also quick thinking about where to move the fight, and to know where you weak spots/blind spots are in any given scenario. This applies to the whole fight, siege or no siege. Actually hard hitting siege increases the need for awareness and the ability to change tactics quickly both alone and as a group imo.

So your rethorical question does not convince me that siege requires no skill in planning or duration of a fight, on the contrary it adds another dimension of planning and even more need of sitational awareness during a fight.

I always look around me to see if seige is getting deployed - because then I know where my next target is Siege make strategically good positions in the terrain/battlefield more important. I like that!

But siege should maybe take longer to deploy, it should allways be a high risk operation to set up.

What you say is partially true. Its make game more demanding for team facing sieges. But what you conviniently skip is that team with sieges skill requirements are much lower that the skills needed to counter idiotic siege dmg. And thats the problem. Minimal risk, 0 effort in char/gear/team build is deadly and require lot effort to counter that. Now put it in hand of any semi decent team, with few balistas, solid def tanks spamming roots/snares and you have mass murder done way too easy.

Arki · March 2015

Gravord wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The changes to siege damage are simply awesome and have greatly improved the overall PvP experience.

Not sure if troll or 0 skills nab.

I'm a '0 skills nab'.

I trust your words so gave you "agree" on post

Arki wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

Skill in a MMO is not really spamming buttons or skills, although there is a minor impact of it (obviously correct timings, reactions, etc. are important). Skill gets involved with 2 primary components: Planning and During. The planning phase is half of what makes a MMO and corresponds to skill and it happens days, weeks, etc. before you do any fight. With siege, planning is entirely removed. The "During" phase when it comes to skill is spatial awareness such as not standing in red, blocking certain attacks, bashing others, roll dodging when needing to, correctly timing attacks/combos, etc.

Now count all of those above items that I believe (and hopefully you do too) impact skill, and tell me.... how many are involved with siege? How many are involved with the other option (aka fighting).

There are two kinds of planning involved in a fight, its the planning of your build/equipment for the skirmishes and there's the greater battle plan involving positioning, siege and maybe multiple coordinated strike teams.

During the fight you need spatial awareness such as not standing in red, roll dodging when needing to, and also quick thinking about where to move the fight, and to know where you weak spots/blind spots are in any given scenario. This applies to the whole fight, siege or no siege. Actually hard hitting siege increases the need for awareness and the ability to change tactics quickly both alone and as a group imo.

So your rethorical question does not convince me that siege requires no skill in planning or duration of a fight, on the contrary it adds another dimension of planning and even more need of sitational awareness during a fight.

I always look around me to see if seige is getting deployed - because then I know where my next target is Siege make strategically good positions in the terrain/battlefield more important. I like that!

But siege should maybe take longer to deploy, it should allways be a high risk operation to set up.

What you say is partially true. Its make game more demanding for team facing sieges. But what you conviniently skip is that team with sieges skill requirements are much lower that the skills needed to counter idiotic siege dmg. And thats the problem. Minimal risk, 0 effort in char/gear/team build is deadly and require lot effort to counter that. Now put it in hand of any semi decent team, with few balistas, solid def tanks spamming roots/snares and you have mass murder done way too easy.

And i partly agree with that as well. Allthough im sure good attacking teams will figure out a counter to the defending scenario you just outlined

Bottom line I still think its a better game then before, that's where we differ i guess.

What do you think of an increased deployment time? Maybe even an increased deployment time outside of keeps to make siege less viable in group vs group fights?

If an enemy has fortified a position in advance it SHOULD be much harder to take i think, but to be able to fortify you position with siege in a few seconds doesnt feel quite right.

Gravord · March 2015

Arki wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The changes to siege damage are simply awesome and have greatly improved the overall PvP experience.

Not sure if troll or 0 skills nab.

I'm a '0 skills nab'.

I trust your words so gave you "agree" on post

Arki wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

Skill in a MMO is not really spamming buttons or skills, although there is a minor impact of it (obviously correct timings, reactions, etc. are important). Skill gets involved with 2 primary components: Planning and During. The planning phase is half of what makes a MMO and corresponds to skill and it happens days, weeks, etc. before you do any fight. With siege, planning is entirely removed. The "During" phase when it comes to skill is spatial awareness such as not standing in red, blocking certain attacks, bashing others, roll dodging when needing to, correctly timing attacks/combos, etc.

Now count all of those above items that I believe (and hopefully you do too) impact skill, and tell me.... how many are involved with siege? How many are involved with the other option (aka fighting).

There are two kinds of planning involved in a fight, its the planning of your build/equipment for the skirmishes and there's the greater battle plan involving positioning, siege and maybe multiple coordinated strike teams.

During the fight you need spatial awareness such as not standing in red, roll dodging when needing to, and also quick thinking about where to move the fight, and to know where you weak spots/blind spots are in any given scenario. This applies to the whole fight, siege or no siege. Actually hard hitting siege increases the need for awareness and the ability to change tactics quickly both alone and as a group imo.

So your rethorical question does not convince me that siege requires no skill in planning or duration of a fight, on the contrary it adds another dimension of planning and even more need of sitational awareness during a fight.

I always look around me to see if seige is getting deployed - because then I know where my next target is Siege make strategically good positions in the terrain/battlefield more important. I like that!

But siege should maybe take longer to deploy, it should allways be a high risk operation to set up.

What you say is partially true. Its make game more demanding for team facing sieges. But what you conviniently skip is that team with sieges skill requirements are much lower that the skills needed to counter idiotic siege dmg. And thats the problem. Minimal risk, 0 effort in char/gear/team build is deadly and require lot effort to counter that. Now put it in hand of any semi decent team, with few balistas, solid def tanks spamming roots/snares and you have mass murder done way too easy.

And i partly agree with that as well. Allthough im sure good attacking teams will figure out a counter to the defending scenario you just outlined Bottom line I still think its a better game then before, that's where we differ i guess.

What do you think of an increased deployment time? Maybe even an increased deployment time outside of keeps to make siege less viable in group vs group fights?

If an enemy has fortified a position in advance it SHOULD be much harder to take i think, but to be able to fortify you position with siege in a few seconds doesnt feel quite right.

Increase deployment would be some kind of solution but that wouldnt solve issue with 20 balistas spam on keep def or for example choke points like gates on way to scrolls. Theres no way around there, you have to pass one little gate, with oils on top, caltrops inside gate and 20 balistas aiming and devastating anyone entering. In this scenario it doesnt make "harder to attack", it make it impossible to break if defenders know what they doing. And deployment time wont help with that either as after loosing keeps theres still plenty time to fortify gates. Dmg reduction is necessary.

Olysja · March 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The changes to siege damage are simply awesome and have greatly improved the overall PvP experience.

Not sure if troll or 0 skills nab.

I'm a '0 skills nab'.

i trust your trusted and i give an agree aswell!!!!!

Arki · March 2015

Gravord wrote: »

Arki wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Gravord wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The changes to siege damage are simply awesome and have greatly improved the overall PvP experience.

Not sure if troll or 0 skills nab.

I'm a '0 skills nab'.

I trust your words so gave you "agree" on post

Arki wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

if this is what you consider skillful play then I think I am done talking here.... so much skill, charge uppercut 80% of the time.... full reliance on the items... and spamming button to what add-ons popped up...

Skill in a MMO is not really spamming buttons or skills, although there is a minor impact of it (obviously correct timings, reactions, etc. are important). Skill gets involved with 2 primary components: Planning and During. The planning phase is half of what makes a MMO and corresponds to skill and it happens days, weeks, etc. before you do any fight. With siege, planning is entirely removed. The "During" phase when it comes to skill is spatial awareness such as not standing in red, blocking certain attacks, bashing others, roll dodging when needing to, correctly timing attacks/combos, etc.

Now count all of those above items that I believe (and hopefully you do too) impact skill, and tell me.... how many are involved with siege? How many are involved with the other option (aka fighting).

There are two kinds of planning involved in a fight, its the planning of your build/equipment for the skirmishes and there's the greater battle plan involving positioning, siege and maybe multiple coordinated strike teams.

During the fight you need spatial awareness such as not standing in red, roll dodging when needing to, and also quick thinking about where to move the fight, and to know where you weak spots/blind spots are in any given scenario. This applies to the whole fight, siege or no siege. Actually hard hitting siege increases the need for awareness and the ability to change tactics quickly both alone and as a group imo.

So your rethorical question does not convince me that siege requires no skill in planning or duration of a fight, on the contrary it adds another dimension of planning and even more need of sitational awareness during a fight.

I always look around me to see if seige is getting deployed - because then I know where my next target is Siege make strategically good positions in the terrain/battlefield more important. I like that!

But siege should maybe take longer to deploy, it should allways be a high risk operation to set up.

What you say is partially true. Its make game more demanding for team facing sieges. But what you conviniently skip is that team with sieges skill requirements are much lower that the skills needed to counter idiotic siege dmg. And thats the problem. Minimal risk, 0 effort in char/gear/team build is deadly and require lot effort to counter that. Now put it in hand of any semi decent team, with few balistas, solid def tanks spamming roots/snares and you have mass murder done way too easy.

And i partly agree with that as well. Allthough im sure good attacking teams will figure out a counter to the defending scenario you just outlined Bottom line I still think its a better game then before, that's where we differ i guess.

What do you think of an increased deployment time? Maybe even an increased deployment time outside of keeps to make siege less viable in group vs group fights?

If an enemy has fortified a position in advance it SHOULD be much harder to take i think, but to be able to fortify you position with siege in a few seconds doesnt feel quite right.

Increase deployment would be some kind of solution but that wouldnt solve issue with 20 balistas spam on keep def or for example choke points like gates on way to scrolls. Theres no way around there, you have to pass one little gate, with oils on top, caltrops inside gate and 20 balistas aiming and devastating anyone entering. In this scenario it doesnt make "harder to attack", it make it impossible to break if defenders know what they doing. And deployment time wont help with that either as after loosing keeps theres still plenty time to fortify gates. Dmg reduction is necessary.

If you are right and this becomes the new meta, there will most likely be a dmg nerf - but then i really hope they don't go too far making it useless again. Never had so much fun in Cyrodill as these last few days, and i don't even use siege apart from the occasional wall-hitting myself - I just love the thrill of the increased danger and tactical responses necessary.

Lava_Croft · March 2015

Typical pattern when things change:

1: A lot of whining from people forced to change their tactics.
2: More whining from people who have trouble changing their tactics.
3: People changing their tactics.
4: Everything settles down.