To all of you who think EXP Boosting Potions are Pay to Win: You're wrong.

Ley · March 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Ah, so you don't even play at the top, and you pretend to know how top players behave and play? You are really not in a position to make those claims.

As someone with over 90 days /played, BiS legendary gear for all roles and 99% of the game's achievements (13880), I believe my expertise here is slightly more credible.

So you're saying you're in the top, what 5-10% of players, and zos should make decisions based solely on your opinion because the rest of our opinions aren't credible enough? Sorry but you're being an elitist.

DDuke · March 2015

Ley wrote: »

Ley wrote: »
I can't vote in this poll because it will likely be misunderstood.

Most people here seem to consider just about anything sold for money p2w.

I absolutely do not support p2w but my idea of p2w is much more liberal than a lot of people here. It's being able to buy a direct advantage, than can not be gotten in game.

Exp can be gained in game, therefor I do not see exp pots as p2w (before you start.. yes yes, I understand CP and the advantage of having more than someone else).
Race change, ok.
Anything cosmetic, fine by me (as long as it's doesn't make the game look stupid).
Extra storage, character slots, not p2w.

If they start selling x hour potions that give you a damage/armor/hp/mp/stam/crit/speed boost, then I would be upset, that is p2w.
If they start selling gear powerful gear for money, that is p2w.
Faster horses, p2w.
Forward camps for cash only, p2w.

I've played a bunch of p2w games, seriously obvious p2w games; eso isn't even close.

-5.3% Stamina Costs Spells/Abilities
+4.5% Stamina Regeneration
+5.1% more Healing Reduction
+5.8% Light/Heavy Attack Damage
+9% Physical Critical Strike damage
+5.9% Armour Penetration
+1.2% Spell Resistance
-6.9% DoT damage taken
-5% Poison/Disease/Magic damage taken
-5% Flame/Frost/Shock damage taken.

When killed, heal Allies within 8m by X
50% reduced Gathering times
Better items from Treasure Chests
15% chance to return X damage to attacker when blocking a melee attack, 5 second cooldown

What if armour with these bonuses was sold next year, would it be P2W?

Those are the bonuses someone chugging potions non-stop gains over someone who's not.

It is essentially the very same result as selling gear (in fact, I haven't even seen equally strong bonuses in many F2P/B2P Cash Shop gear).

You pay for X and you end up with the same amount of Power, whether that's gear we're talking about or people using XP pots. Only difference is that this power isn't evident right away (it grows bigger & bigger over the years we're grinding Champion System).

If you consider powerful gear P2W, you have to consider XP Boosters also (as long as they affect CP).

Both the cause ($$$) & the result (power) are the exact same.

Clearly you will not accept that not everyone thinks exp pots are p2w. I assure you, I understand the implications and I'm telling you, I don't care, I don't consider it p2w.

We don't even know how much exp pots will cost. Lets say for a moment that it's 200-500 crowns per 2 hours, $1.00-$2.50 an hour. I can gain around 2cp an hour, I'm sure some people can gain more. So for every 2 I gain, they'd gain 3 and it'll cost them $1.00-$2.50. That's $1.00-$2.50 per extra CP, $100-$250 for 100, $1000-$2500 for 1000. If someone spends that much money AND grinds that many hours, kudos to them. I'd be glad that we have dedicated players supporting the game and hope I was in their party for pvp.

It may require more effort for someone not buying exp pots to keep up with those who are but there will always be people willing to go the extra mile to stay ahead and I'm ok wit that. I won't keep up with top cp farmers, with or without exp pots being in the game and I'm ok with that.

If anything, I think exp pots would be more fair than unfair. Giving people who have jobs and families a way to maximize their game play in the limited time they have.

I consider cash exclusive powerful gear p2w and do NOT have to consider exp pots p2w, contrary to your belief.

If they sold the CP outright, that I would have a problem with and yes, there is a difference.

I'll say it a 3rd time. I've played p2w games and eso isn't even close.

I've given you facts, yet you refuse to believe them.

Could the reason that you don't consider them P2W be that you wouldn't be able to win with them either? Not meant as an insult, so don't get offended. I'm merely curious.

To some people, these aren't P2W because they aren't playing to win and can't see how they might affect those people who are (for whom it is clearly P2W).

For you, it is a tool to catch up people, but you don't understand (or don't want to believe) that the competitive people will also be using them to widen the gap even more. You'll be not only back in the starting square, but those people will be even more ahead of you than they would otherwise be.

But if this does not concern you (as you said, you wouldn't be able to catch them anyhow) and the potions simply help you to keep up with the content difficulty (rather than players), it's more like a convenience than P2W.

Am I getting closer with my assumptions? Understanding both sides of the argument better can't do harm

DDuke · March 2015

Ley wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ah, so you don't even play at the top, and you pretend to know how top players behave and play? You are really not in a position to make those claims.

As someone with over 90 days /played, BiS legendary gear for all roles and 99% of the game's achievements (13880), I believe my expertise here is slightly more credible.

So you're saying you're in the top, what 5-10% of players, and zos should make decisions based solely on your opinion because the rest of our opinions aren't credible enough? Sorry but you're being an elitist.

I am merely stating that trying to make assumptions as to how top players are going to play without even having max level gear is presumptuous.

I am sure there are other experienced players who know how the game works at end game, with whom we can discuss whether Rings of Mara are worth wearing in trials/dungeons. I am not the only one who's opinion matters so no need to get personal.

Some might even have done testing on it, whether the DPS/sustain loss is worth it for grinding XP. One thing that is clear is that I would never make my whole group suffer by equipping one (and thus providing less utility for the group).

Ley · March 2015

DDuke wrote: »

I've given you facts, yet you refuse to believe them.

Could the reason that you don't consider them P2W be that you wouldn't be able to win with them either? Not meant as an insult, so don't get offended. I'm merely curious.

To some people, these aren't P2W because they aren't playing to win and can't see how they might affect those people who are (for whom it is clearly P2W).

For you, it is a tool to catch up people, but you don't understand (or don't want to believe) that the competitive people will also be using them to widen the gap even more. You'll be not only back in the starting square, but those people will be even more ahead of you than they would otherwise be.

But if this does not concern you (as you said, you wouldn't be able to catch them anyhow) and the potions simply help you to keep up with the content difficulty (rather than players).

Am I getting closer with my assumptions? Understanding both sides of the argument better can't do harm

Before reading this, you should look at my post right above the one I just quoted. (Edit: oh yay you did!)

You're assumptions are off by a mile. When I play a game, I play to first and foremost have fun. For me having fun is running with the top players, so I max out my gear, stats, builds, and learn how to be most effective in whatever I'm doing. I accept however, that no matter how hard I may try, I won't allow myself to be consumed by the game like some players and will always be behind those who are. Family, friends, work, life, all these things come before games to me.

It is you who are refusing to see the facts. The fact is, I oppose p2w and not exp pots, get over it.

I am disgusted by your assumptions and attitude.

DDuke · March 2015

Ley wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I've given you facts, yet you refuse to believe them.

Could the reason that you don't consider them P2W be that you wouldn't be able to win with them either? Not meant as an insult, so don't get offended. I'm merely curious.

To some people, these aren't P2W because they aren't playing to win and can't see how they might affect those people who are (for whom it is clearly P2W).

For you, it is a tool to catch up people, but you don't understand (or don't want to believe) that the competitive people will also be using them to widen the gap even more. You'll be not only back in the starting square, but those people will be even more ahead of you than they would otherwise be.

But if this does not concern you (as you said, you wouldn't be able to catch them anyhow) and the potions simply help you to keep up with the content difficulty (rather than players).

Am I getting closer with my assumptions? Understanding both sides of the argument better can't do harm

Before reading this, you should look at my post right above the one I just quoted. (Edit: oh yay you did!)

You're assumptions are off by a mile. When I play a game, I play to first and foremost have fun. For me having fun is running with the top players, so I max out my gear, stats, builds, and learn how to be most effective in whatever I'm doing. I accept however, that no matter how hard I may try, I won't allow myself to be consumed by the game like some players and will always be behind those who are. Family, friends, work, life, all these things come before games to me.

It is you who are refusing to see the facts. The fact is, I oppose p2w and not exp pots, get over it.

I am disgusted by your assumptions and attitude.

Well, I am sorry you feel disgusted by my assumptions/attitude. Not much I can do about them

So basicly it's not P2W, because those other players would be ahead of you anyway? But how do you justify them getting even more ahead of you than they normally would? I still haven't seen anyone address this.

You can't really run with the top players, if you aren't one of them. Top groups are composed of top players (essentially those with most CP).

I don't like progression being time based either, but P2W (let's just call them XP Boosters) make it even worse.

It's a proven fact that you will not catch up to people by using them.
It's a proven fact that the diminishing returns don't work as people think they do.

They only separate the playerbase to the "money players" and the "normal players", and within those groups there will always be divides based on time played.

New assumption: is it because you want to feel superior to the players who do not throw money at the game?

Let's be honest, if you're willing to spend money on XP Boosters, that means you're going to beat more people than you did before as other people aren't willing to do that & fall behind you.

Again, don't be offended. This is like a scientific study for me at the moment, I'm trying to figure out how the other side thinks.

AssaultLemming · March 2015

It's play to win, there is no rational argument to be made otherwise.

If 2 players of equivalent skill and gear both play for 24 hours, player 1 without xp pots and player 2 with xp pots, at the end of the 24 hours player 1 will have 10 champion points and player 2 will have 15.

If they then face off in PvP player 2 will win every time.

If they do trials player 2 will have a higher score every time.

If they do dungeons player 2 will finish faster and so collect more loot (over time) every time.

And even worse, because player 2 now has an advantage, tomorrow he will kill more mobs than player 1 and earn an even larger amount and the gap will grow even more.

This is the definition of play to win.

This is the only logic you can apply here.

Xp = cp = power = win.

Anyone should be able to see this.

Majic · March 2015

The House Always Wins

Ironically, all this bickering over what constitutes Pay-To-Win doesn't really change anything, because what matters isn't whether something actually is Pay-To-Win, but whether it is perceived as Pay-To-Win.

Hence all the complaints by those who think it is and all the defensive rebuttals by those who think it isn't are just a tempest in a teapot.

What does matter is whether enough players pay for these boosts to offset any potential losses from players who are discouraged by them.

As long as enough people pay, ZOS wins.

We pay, they win.

seanvwolf · March 2015

PKMN12 wrote: »

It normally would NOT be a problem. the problem here is that there is something AFTER leveling that requires XP and seriously effects how good you are in terms of stats. If it was not for the Champion point system, no one woul be complaining. Thanks to the Champion System those XP pots means MUCH better stats than a normal person is likely to get. at a 70% boost with the rings of mara and sub bonus, someone who buys these thigns are going to have MUCH better stats than someone who did not.

ring of mara 10% (have to be grouped with person)
2nd ring of mara 10% (have to be grouped with person)
sub bonus 10%

Are the potions giving a 40% bonus or something?

If you are in a group with a third person, that actually negates the passive exp boost that you get when grouped with one other person. So you don't need that 2nd ring of mara.

The sub bonus is just an extra 10% exp boost. So just spend an extra 6 minutes in the game for every hour and you'll get the same experience.

There are countless threads posted discussing how Champion System has such diminished returns that those extra 10% CP at the very end is laughably negligible after a certain point.

OP is right.

Razzak · March 2015

@seanvwolf : How much are those potions in in-game currency?

seanvwolf · March 2015

Razzak wrote: »

@seanvwolf : How much are those potions in in-game currency?

I modified my reply because I'm not sure they are going to be provided for in-game gold.

DDuke · March 2015

seanvwolf wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

It normally would NOT be a problem. the problem here is that there is something AFTER leveling that requires XP and seriously effects how good you are in terms of stats. If it was not for the Champion point system, no one woul be complaining. Thanks to the Champion System those XP pots means MUCH better stats than a normal person is likely to get. at a 70% boost with the rings of mara and sub bonus, someone who buys these thigns are going to have MUCH better stats than someone who did not.

ring of mara 10% (have to be grouped with person)
2nd ring of mara 10% (have to be grouped with person)
sub bonus 10%

Are the potions giving a 40% bonus or something?

If you are in a group with a third person, that actually negates the passive exp boost that you get when grouped with one other person. So you don't need that 2nd ring of mara.

The sub bonus is just an extra 10% exp boost. So just spend an extra 6 minutes in the game for every hour and you'll get the same experience.

There are countless threads posted discussing how Champion System has such diminished returns that those extra 10% CP at the very end is laughably negligible after a certain point.

OP is right.

...And you don't think people will do all that and purchase XP Boosters for a total of 90% XP Boost?

Also, it's been explained on the post how the effect of Rings of Mara is negligible, due to the fact it consumes a ring slot and thus becomes a) unusable in certain content (Trials/DSAV/PvP) b) actually lessens your dps & sustain significantly, thus making you kill mobs slower -> gain xp slower. Nor can you get two Rings of Mara, only one per account.

And I did explain & provide proof (multiple times) on this thread how diminishing effects not only do not exist, but that the contrary is actually true (the power gap keeps growing & growing).

AssaultLemming wrote: »

Xp = cp = power = win.

Anyone should be able to see this.

This.

darthbelanb14_ESO · March 2015

TBH, everyone is making a mountain out of molehill. A 2 hour 50% XP boost is nothing, and hardly worth it. I watched Deltia's latest video and he spent two thirds of the hour of his video derping around trying to get his quest objectives completed. That also with having to manage inventory, sell things, spend skill points, and so on. You'd be lucky to get in two quests or dailies where the XP boost would be beneficial.

Also, if the countdown timer doesn't stop when you log, then they are even more useless. I sometimes don't have two hours to commit, at most, most of the time, I can only play for one hour, well, there goes half my boost. This boost, doesn't even come close to P2W.

ZOS_AlanG · March 2015

Since we have a large number of threads on this topic, we're locking this and consolidating the discussion into this thread. Please remember that we expect posts on the forums to be civil, constructive, and abide by the forum rules. As we recently reiterated, one of the goals here is to provide a safe, welcoming place for our players and developers to read and talk about the game. As part of this, we will not tolerate trolling, demands, abusive or insulting language toward our community members, developers, company, or ESO itself.

As for XP boosters, Gina comments on this subject earlier in the thread we're consolidating this discussion into:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys. Matt Firor had previously mentioned in last month's Road Ahead that we would likely be adding experience boost potions to the Crown Store at some point. These types of potions follow our philosophy of only including items for convenience (and customization) in that you will spend less time to gain experience. That said, please remember that this information was datamined (that's ok!) and isn't yet available in-game, so it's not necessarily indicative of the final item that you'll see.