why are siege engines doing half damage (or worse) relative to 1.5 ???

WebBull · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

This will be skipping PTS and going straight to live as an incremental patch coming next week (hopefully). With that being said, I figure getting some feedback on direct number changes here is good. Some other changes are in the works too from the combat\gameplay team regarding XP, battl

Remember that these changes in damage are vs. players except for the Trebuchet extra damage noted vs. keeps. Also take note that the goals of each weapon type dictate their damage so while the catapult damage looks low, it's meant to be low in comparison to a Treb.

Lastly the changes to the Treb damage, as some of you have noted, will change keep assault preferences to some degree as well as the Flaming Oil changes. The DPS of an Ice treb however is still lower than a standard ballista bolt since you know...it's a ball of ice and not a rock or a flaming rock, or a steel tipped 100 lb bolt...

We've bounced these numbers around a few times internally and have them currently set up and feeling pretty good in our tests:

Flaming Oil: 9000 DoT <-- This was a bit higher at first, but in the most common situation where several pots are being used and once, we toned this down a bit.

Meatbag: 4260 (health debuff stays the same)
Oilpot: 4260 (snare stayed the same)
Scattershot: 4260

Standard Ballista : 6390
Lightning Ballista : 6390 + DoT vs players
Fire Ballista : 8520 + DoT vs players

Stone Treb : 17040 vs players, 4000 vs. keep walls
Fire Treb : 12780 +DoT vs players, 3500 vs. keep walls
Ice Treb : 10650 + Snare vs players, 3000 vs. keep walls

This is great news! It would be nice to know how they compare to current damage.

Agrippa_Invisus · March 2015

Dat Fire Treb damage, yo.

I think we just found our anti-personnel weapon of choice. If multiple impact at/near the same time... ow.

frozywozy · March 2015

This is probably the best fix ever in this game. Cheers to ZOS, cheers to @xylena for starting this thread.

Sublime · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Stone Treb : 17040 vs players, 4000 vs. keep walls
Fire Treb : 12780 +DoT vs players, 3500 vs. keep walls
Ice Treb : 10650 + Snare vs players, 3000 vs. keep walls

Luckily I'm no longer a LA vamp glass-cannon.

NukeAllTheThings · March 2015

@ZOS_BrianWheeler thank you for the insight into what you guys are doing. Whether some like/dislike changes I assure you all of us appreciate the communication.

ThyIronFist · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

This will be skipping PTS and going straight to live as an incremental patch coming next week (hopefully). With that being said, I figure getting some feedback on direct number changes here is good. Some other changes are in the works too from the combat\gameplay team regarding XP, battl

Remember that these changes in damage are vs. players except for the Trebuchet extra damage noted vs. keeps. Also take note that the goals of each weapon type dictate their damage so while the catapult damage looks low, it's meant to be low in comparison to a Treb.

Lastly the changes to the Treb damage, as some of you have noted, will change keep assault preferences to some degree as well as the Flaming Oil changes. The DPS of an Ice treb however is still lower than a standard ballista bolt since you know...it's a ball of ice and not a rock or a flaming rock, or a steel tipped 100 lb bolt...

We've bounced these numbers around a few times internally and have them currently set up and feeling pretty good in our tests:

Flaming Oil: 9000 DoT <-- This was a bit higher at first, but in the most common situation where several pots are being used and once, we toned this down a bit.

Meatbag: 4260 (health debuff stays the same)
Oilpot: 4260 (snare stayed the same)
Scattershot: 4260

Standard Ballista : 6390
Lightning Ballista : 6390 + DoT vs players
Fire Ballista : 8520 + DoT vs players

Stone Treb : 17040 vs players, 4000 vs. keep walls
Fire Treb : 12780 +DoT vs players, 3500 vs. keep walls
Ice Treb : 10650 + Snare vs players, 3000 vs. keep walls

Awesome!

Thanks a lot for the update, sieges will be worth buying for sure.

technohic · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

This will be skipping PTS and going straight to live as an incremental patch coming next week (hopefully). With that being said, I figure getting some feedback on direct number changes here is good. Some other changes are in the works too from the combat\gameplay team regarding XP, battl

Remember that these changes in damage are vs. players except for the Trebuchet extra damage noted vs. keeps. Also take note that the goals of each weapon type dictate their damage so while the catapult damage looks low, it's meant to be low in comparison to a Treb.

Lastly the changes to the Treb damage, as some of you have noted, will change keep assault preferences to some degree as well as the Flaming Oil changes. The DPS of an Ice treb however is still lower than a standard ballista bolt since you know...it's a ball of ice and not a rock or a flaming rock, or a steel tipped 100 lb bolt...

We've bounced these numbers around a few times internally and have them currently set up and feeling pretty good in our tests:

Flaming Oil: 9000 DoT <-- This was a bit higher at first, but in the most common situation where several pots are being used and once, we toned this down a bit.

Meatbag: 4260 (health debuff stays the same)
Oilpot: 4260 (snare stayed the same)
Scattershot: 4260

Standard Ballista : 6390
Lightning Ballista : 6390 + DoT vs players
Fire Ballista : 8520 + DoT vs players

Stone Treb : 17040 vs players, 4000 vs. keep walls
Fire Treb : 12780 +DoT vs players, 3500 vs. keep walls
Ice Treb : 10650 + Snare vs players, 3000 vs. keep walls

Some questions on this:

1. Why would I use a scattershot when the others do the same damage and add an extra (health debuff or snare)

2. Same could be asked about standard ballistas, but is this just what they do to players? ( as a standard does 2k currently on a wall, so I am assuming current values stay the same)

Sublime · March 2015

technohic wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

This will be skipping PTS and going straight to live as an incremental patch coming next week (hopefully). With that being said, I figure getting some feedback on direct number changes here is good. Some other changes are in the works too from the combat\gameplay team regarding XP, battl

Remember that these changes in damage are vs. players except for the Trebuchet extra damage noted vs. keeps. Also take note that the goals of each weapon type dictate their damage so while the catapult damage looks low, it's meant to be low in comparison to a Treb.

Lastly the changes to the Treb damage, as some of you have noted, will change keep assault preferences to some degree as well as the Flaming Oil changes. The DPS of an Ice treb however is still lower than a standard ballista bolt since you know...it's a ball of ice and not a rock or a flaming rock, or a steel tipped 100 lb bolt...

We've bounced these numbers around a few times internally and have them currently set up and feeling pretty good in our tests:

Flaming Oil: 9000 DoT <-- This was a bit higher at first, but in the most common situation where several pots are being used and once, we toned this down a bit.

Meatbag: 4260 (health debuff stays the same)
Oilpot: 4260 (snare stayed the same)
Scattershot: 4260

Standard Ballista : 6390
Lightning Ballista : 6390 + DoT vs players
Fire Ballista : 8520 + DoT vs players

Stone Treb : 17040 vs players, 4000 vs. keep walls
Fire Treb : 12780 +DoT vs players, 3500 vs. keep walls
Ice Treb : 10650 + Snare vs players, 3000 vs. keep walls

Some questions on this:

1. Why would I use a scattershot when the others do the same damage and add an extra (health debuff or snare)

2. Same could be asked about standard ballistas, but is this just what they do to players? (I'm assuming as a standard does 2k currently on a wall, so I am assuming current values stay the same)

1. Scattershot Catapults have a huge AOE.
2. If I'm not mistaken a treb takes about 2.5* as long to load than a ballista, so normal ballistas are still top DPS against walls. Apart from that Ballistas still have the better DPS, because the DOT gets applied 2.5* as often.

Weberda · March 2015

@Brian_Wheeler

This is really great info. We can actually make some decisions based on cold hard numbers. And keep defense is once more viable. You have no idea how much this is appreciated.

And by the way getting hitting with a big blob of ice really does hurt...a lot....just sayin..

ZOS_BrianWheeler · March 2015

Actually forgot to note that Scattershot now (correctly) adds to damage taken by anyone with the Scattershot debuff. This was set as a flat bonus and has been corrected in this update as well.

Morvul · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Flaming Oil: 9000 DoT <-- This was a bit higher at first, but in the most common situation where several pots are being used and once, we toned this down a bit.

Meatbag: 4260 (health debuff stays the same)
Oilpot: 4260 (snare stayed the same)
Scattershot: 4260

Standard Ballista : 6390
Lightning Ballista : 6390 + DoT vs players
Fire Ballista : 8520 + DoT vs players

Stone Treb : 17040 vs players, 4000 vs. keep walls
Fire Treb : 12780 +DoT vs players, 3500 vs. keep walls
Ice Treb : 10650 + Snare vs players, 3000 vs. keep walls

question on the oil: 9000 per DoT tick (which sounds scarily high) or 9000 total over the duration (which is 3 ticks, if I am not mistaken?). 9000 total damage for the Flaming Oil would, imho, be quite low...

the other numbers sound good to me.
So basically Catapults would then be used to annoy and debuff spread out enemy groups, Ballistas for "precission fire" probably most usefull against enemy siege operators, and Trebs could be employed to punish the enemy for stacking up

technohic · March 2015

Sublime wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

This will be skipping PTS and going straight to live as an incremental patch coming next week (hopefully). With that being said, I figure getting some feedback on direct number changes here is good. Some other changes are in the works too from the combat\gameplay team regarding XP, battl

Remember that these changes in damage are vs. players except for the Trebuchet extra damage noted vs. keeps. Also take note that the goals of each weapon type dictate their damage so while the catapult damage looks low, it's meant to be low in comparison to a Treb.

Lastly the changes to the Treb damage, as some of you have noted, will change keep assault preferences to some degree as well as the Flaming Oil changes. The DPS of an Ice treb however is still lower than a standard ballista bolt since you know...it's a ball of ice and not a rock or a flaming rock, or a steel tipped 100 lb bolt...

We've bounced these numbers around a few times internally and have them currently set up and feeling pretty good in our tests:

Flaming Oil: 9000 DoT <-- This was a bit higher at first, but in the most common situation where several pots are being used and once, we toned this down a bit.

Meatbag: 4260 (health debuff stays the same)
Oilpot: 4260 (snare stayed the same)
Scattershot: 4260

Standard Ballista : 6390
Lightning Ballista : 6390 + DoT vs players
Fire Ballista : 8520 + DoT vs players

Stone Treb : 17040 vs players, 4000 vs. keep walls
Fire Treb : 12780 +DoT vs players, 3500 vs. keep walls
Ice Treb : 10650 + Snare vs players, 3000 vs. keep walls

Some questions on this:

1. Why would I use a scattershot when the others do the same damage and add an extra (health debuff or snare)

2. Same could be asked about standard ballistas, but is this just what they do to players? (I'm assuming as a standard does 2k currently on a wall, so I am assuming current values stay the same)

1. Scattershot Catapults have a huge AOE.
2. If I'm not mistaken a treb takes about 2.5* as long to load than a ballista, so normal ballistas are still top DPS against walls. Apart from that Ballistas still have the better DPS, because the DOT gets applied 2.5* as often.

Thanks. That helps fill in some blanks. I just never see scattershot being used. Maybe if you can actually force people to spread out a bit, that might be usefull. And I was thinking Trebs were just 2x the reload but you might be right.

Darlgon · March 2015

Thanks Brian, but.. umm

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Remember that these changes in damage are vs. players except for the Trebuchet extra damage noted vs. keeps. Also take note that the goals of each weapon type dictate their damage so ]while the catapult damage looks low, it's meant to be low in comparison to a Treb.

Standard Ballista : 6390
Lightning Ballista : 6390 + DoT vs players
Fire Ballista : 8520 + DoT vs players

Stone Treb : 17040 vs players, 4000 vs. keep walls
Fire Treb : 12780 +DoT vs players, 3500 vs. keep walls
Ice Treb : 10650 + Snare vs players, 3000 vs. keep walls

Isnt 6390 HIGHER than 4000? or is that vs players, not keeps, with ballistas hitting keeps for 2032 still? Or is that damage divided among the players in the area, meaning if 1 person is standing there, they get hit for 6390, while 10 players will get hit for 1000 on six and the others 65 each?

Joy_Division · March 2015

@Brian Wheeler

Awesome news. It may take some tweaking to get the right number balance and I think as a community we are willing to deal with and adjust with new and deadlier siege until the balance is about right. Because clearly at present it is not.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · March 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

Thanks Brian, but.. umm

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Remember that these changes in damage are vs. players except for the Trebuchet extra damage noted vs. keeps. Also take note that the goals of each weapon type dictate their damage so ]while the catapult damage looks low, it's meant to be low in comparison to a Treb.

Standard Ballista : 6390
Lightning Ballista : 6390 + DoT vs players
Fire Ballista : 8520 + DoT vs players

Stone Treb : 17040 vs players, 4000 vs. keep walls
Fire Treb : 12780 +DoT vs players, 3500 vs. keep walls
Ice Treb : 10650 + Snare vs players, 3000 vs. keep walls

Isnt 6390 HIGHER than 4000? or is that vs players, not keeps, with ballistas hitting keeps for 2032 still? Or is that damage divided among the players in the area, meaning if 1 person is standing there, they get hit for 6390, while 10 players will get hit for 1000 on six and the others 65 each?

these changes in damage are vs. players
traditionally siege damage hasn't had a 'cap' so does full damage regardless on the numbers hit.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler great improvement with the communication today

few questions

1. Whats the numbers on the DoT component on the Fire Treb now?
2. Does your code recognise the difference between walls and doors? for example could you make it so that sieging a door with the fire treb/ballista would add the dot component as it catches fire?
3. Ice Trebs still seem a little bad, could they root players rather than snare (like talons or ice reach) i.e the player is frozen to the ground when it hits. Also damage should perhaps increase to equal the initial damage on impact of the fire treb imo.
(edit)4. Is there any planned modifier on shooting the inner wall instead of the outer with trebs? less damage? (seems logical that a. to lower ninja capping speed and b. players could then use trebs for outer and ballista for inner as it would be harder to move a treb inside the keep for example.)

sKorcheD · March 2015

danno816_ESO wrote: »

Wow, 17k seems a bit high, I thought the max should be around 10k.

Nevertheless, this will make trebs far more useful for both siege and antipersonnel.

You can always move away from the big red circle. You SHOULD take insane damage for taking a ballista to the face.

maryriv · March 2015

Not worth buying atm.

technohic · March 2015

maryriv wrote: »

Not worth buying atm.

What are not worth buying and why? discussion appears to be open so speak up.

Brizz · March 2015

Very excited for these changes, and I'm loving the open communication about siege and their effects! Thank you very much @ZOS_BrianWheeler

While we are at it...

Any chance on some info on the secondary effects of weapon enchantments? There are many effects from the different weapon types but no solid info/testing that I can find on the internet

Glyph of Frost (Frost Damage)
Glyph of Foulness (Disease Damage)
Glyph of Poison (Poison Damage)
Glyph of Shock (Shock Damage)
Glyph of Flame (Fire Damage)

We know that some of these have secondary effects, such as the disease enchant reducing healing taken, but not all information found over the web is the same or proven.

Any chance for clarification on these?

ZOS_BrianWheeler · March 2015

9k on the flaming oil is high for sure, but considering most cases where it's used, at least as far as I've seen in my experience, there's almost always a healing circle going on where those pots are aimed either on flags, breach points, rams, etc. In our testing we found it's a nasty hit, but can be healed through if someone is healing. Also note that it won't kill you outright, but it will get close.

Standard ballista still hit for 2k on keeps and flame/lightning still hit for 1k on keeps. The damage bonuses to Trebs increases the anti-keep DPS of Ice way higher than it used to be, Flame got a good bump, and Stone trebs now have the highest dps. Granted Trebs have a slow reload (13.8s) compared to ballista (7s) but the damage boost for the Stone makes it the most damage now vs. keeps.

Doors\Keep walls can be differentiated between, and while we have experimented with adding door DoTs, we currently are not looking to add DoT damage to keep walls\doors.

We had Root for Ice trebs at one point internally and that was REALLY disliked as you had to burn stamina to get free while you're already in a combat heavy scenario. I get that's the whole point of having to choose between using stamina for abilities vs. break out of a siege weapon CC, but it was a layer added beyond player CC that wasn't desired.

No plans currently for trying to shoot the inner wall vs. outer.

ZOS_BrianWheeler · March 2015

Weapon enchants are better suited for asking Wrobel and crew in the combat forums

technohic · March 2015

This patch now with the XP boosts and scaling adjustment (really will encourage me to maybe revisit my alts) is going to make next weeks patch like PvP Christmas!

I better call my boss and inform him of the holiday.

RedTalon · March 2015

That is good news

Attorneyatlawl · March 2015

Brizz wrote: »

Very excited for these changes, and I'm loving the open communication about siege and their effects! Thank you very much @ZOS_BrianWheeler

While we are at it...

Any chance on some info on the secondary effects of weapon enchantments? There are many effects from the different weapon types but no solid info/testing that I can find on the internet
Glyph of Frost (Frost Damage)

Glyph of Foulness (Disease Damage)

Glyph of Poison (Poison Damage)

Glyph of Shock (Shock Damage)

Glyph of Flame (Fire Damage)

We know that some of these have secondary effects, such as the disease enchant reducing healing taken, but not all information found over the web is the same or proven.

Any chance for clarification on these?

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Weapon enchants are better suited for asking Wrobel and crew in the combat forums

Indeed, it probably is

... but as a random player, I'll just go ahead here

. Great work on the upcoming changes by the way, Brian... and I can't wait to see the IC in-game. After looking at the data mined info/maps/etc. it looks like you and the team did about the best layout job you could come up with, definitely a lot of thought and planning looks to have gone into it.

Oh, right... I was saying I'd post something about weapon enchants, wasn't I...? Here's some testing I've done previously for the lazy

...
Frost: Small snare. Applies "frozen" status effect for the duration (~5s).
Foulness: ~30% heal debuff at legendary quality, less at lower ones. Lasts around 5 seconds.
Poison: Applies poison status effect, but unsure as to it otherwise.
Shock: Provides a mini-disintegrate like the sorc has, when proccing on a low-health (20%/less) target.
Flame: Causes a low-damage DoT to burn the target, as well as the "burning" status effect for the duration.

DHale · March 2015

Brian I really appreciate your increased communication with us. This is sooo cool and feel like we are headed in the right direction. Once you get rid of the lag we will promote you to head of ESO.

Morvul · March 2015

thanks for the clarification @ZOS_BrianWheeler ,
that's some awesome level of communication right there

Preyfar · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Standard ballista still hit for 2k on keeps and flame/lightning still hit for 1k on keeps. The damage bonuses to Trebs increases the anti-keep DPS of Ice way higher than it used to be, Flame got a good bump, and Stone trebs now have the highest dps. Granted Trebs have a slow reload (13.8s) compared to ballista (7s) but the damage boost for the Stone makes it the most damage now vs. keeps.

On that note, would it be possible to add some flavor text to the trebs, ballista, etc. to help guide plays in how to best use them? One of the biggest hurdles is people using the wrong gear, and maybe adding flavor text akin to "A standard Covenant catapult used to drive disperse enemy troops." or "A Pact ballista which excels at damaging enemy structures."

More people in PVP make the entire thing smoother, and the flavor text could just give players a little bit better of a hint as to how best utilize their gear and know which item to buy. Most keep attacks still have people lining up with fire and meatbags to abring down the walls... and I just just kind of die a little inside when I see it.

Weberda · March 2015

Morvul wrote: »

thanks for the clarification @ZOS_BrianWheeler ,
that's some awesome level of communication right there

Brian is having quite a day. I really wonder what is personal reaction is to all the kudos he's getting from the normally caustic and cynical group of us that he has to deal with on a daily basis..

Agrippa_Invisus · March 2015

Weberda wrote: »

Morvul wrote: »

thanks for the clarification @ZOS_BrianWheeler ,
that's some awesome level of communication right there

Brian is having quite a day. I really wonder what is personal reaction is to all the kudos he's getting from the normally caustic and cynical group of us that he has to deal with on a daily basis..

I believe this is an image of Brian in his office just now:

Snit · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

...but the damage boost for the Stone makes it the most damage now vs. keeps.

You guys have really thought this through. Thanks -- it's appreciated. The sooner it's live, the better!