@ Zenimax: When will you update / improve the ESO User Interface?

Sallington · March 2015

How do some of you people play without seeing half of the information that should be provided to the players?

And they'll never fix it, because modders to it for free (thank god).

KhajitFurTrader · March 2015

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

How do you know for certain things aren't broken? Let's take debuffs and damage over time abilities as an example. If you use an ability that places a DOT or debuff on your target, how do you know it actually worked?

You're talking about game mechanics now, not the UI. How is the UI broken if an enemy resists a skill of yours? There are enough hints in game to tell you whether you succeeded or not, you just need to read them.

Gidorick · March 2015

kewl wrote: »

Sadly, they won't. Console customers take priority now. Get used to being second fiddle.

Were we ever first fiddle?

Gidorick · March 2015

Seraphyel wrote: »

Stonesthrow wrote: »

That said, I WOULD love to see the best add-ons in the game as optional like the ones for crafting, bags, banks, maps, dps meters, UI…

That's all I want. Optional UI elements instead of 3rd party addons.

I completely agree. While I understand the simplistic UI design (and I use add ons to REMOVE UI elements) I think we should have tollgeable options for almost every UI element. Including the ability to move and scale them.

Obscure · March 2015

This is a soap box I stood on LONG before the game had even been released, doing everything short of screaming @ZOS to stop pawning off their UI development on add-ons. The UI is feature incomplete, that's just the long and short of it. Not damage numbers leaping off the screen stuff, just basic "hey let me flag this item as permanent junk for the junk tab" or "hey let me filter the stuff in my inventory by sub types" or "hey let me automatically stack everything in my guild bank". Simple little things the existing UI left unfinished that add-ons completed for them. Hell even auto loot, the option built into the core UI doesn't tell the player what they just looted, they have to open a menu to see it. Minimalist UI's avoid constant menu checking and cram as much information into the absolute least amount of space possible as efficiently as possible with as little menu checking as possible. I had to add-on the living hell out of my UI to make it an actual minimalist UI...that's a problem.

Those who are against add-ons tend to be irrationally basing their arguments on add-ons that scream numbers at your face. I only use such add-ons while streaming the game on twitch. Everything else I use are QOL add-ons (save & load gear sets, skill sets, sort inventory, cue me when my weapon charge is low, cue me when I'm in combat by turning my compass border red, tell me what I just looted since core UI auto loot doesn't, a potion bar and selection hot keys instead of using the horrific Q wheel potion selection garbage that takes up the whole effin' screen, etc., and etc., and etc.).

The base UI is anything but fine, and has heavily leaned on addon creators as a cop out for not completing it. But they aren't going to complete it... ever. They have add-on creators doing it for them, for free, and so long as they do, they don't need to. But for console they're really going to need to step it up in the UI department, because they can't use the Add-ons to cop out for that UI.

eventide03b14a_ESO · March 2015

Obscure wrote: »

This is a soap box I stood on LONG before the game had even been released, doing everything short of screaming @ZOS to stop pawning off their UI development on add-ons. The UI is feature incomplete, that's just the long and short of it. Not damage numbers leaping off the screen stuff, just basic "hey let me flag this item as permanent junk for the junk tab" or "hey let me filter the stuff in my inventory by sub types" or "hey let me automatically stack everything in my guild bank". Simple little things the existing UI left unfinished that add-ons completed for them. Hell even auto loot, the option built into the core UI doesn't tell the player what they just looted, they have to open a menu to see it. Minimalist UI's avoid constant menu checking and cram as much information into the absolute least amount of space possible as efficiently as possible with as little menu checking as possible. I had to add-on the living hell out of my UI to make it an actual minimalist UI...that's a problem.

Those who are against add-ons tend to be irrationally basing their arguments on add-ons that scream numbers at your face. I only use such add-ons while streaming the game on twitch. Everything else I use are QOL add-ons (save & load gear sets, skill sets, sort inventory, cue me when my weapon charge is low, cue me when I'm in combat by turning my compass border red, tell me what I just looted since core UI auto loot doesn't, a potion bar and selection hot keys instead of using the horrific Q wheel potion selection garbage that takes up the whole effin' screen, etc., and etc., and etc.).

The base UI is anything but fine, and has heavily leaned on addon creators as a cop out for not completing it. But they aren't going to complete it... ever. They have add-on creators doing it for them, for free, and so long as they do, they don't need to. But for console they're really going to need to step it up in the UI department, because they can't use the Add-ons to cop out for that UI.

But you know that anytime we mention this two things happen.

We are completely and utterly ignored by the mods and devs about it.(Unless they are redacting something for being too rude.)
5 people come on here complaining they like minimal UI (confusing the menu UI with just the HUD) and completely distracting the conversation from anything productive, and thus ensuring that ZOS never actually implement basic functionality like not showing bound items in the guild store sell window. (Why do I need to see items I can't even sell to other players in that window?)

So we can keep asking for very reasonable features, but I assure you the above two will continue to keep happening.

KhajitFurTrader · March 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

[*] 5 people come on here complaining they like minimal UI (confusing the menu UI with just the HUD)

Just for the record, I was not, nor will I ever, complain that I like the UI as it is. I don't think that's even possible.

Can the UI be improved? Absolutely no question at all.

How should the UI be improved? That's where any discussion about it gets interesting.

Can the UI be considered "broken"? No, it is functional. For some it may be an almost unbearable lowest common denominator, for others it may be an unobtrusive blessing that let's them enjoy the world more. For many more it might be anything in-between.

But calling it outright "broken" is just a way to convey a subjective feeling, not a fact per se. And this is what I view as being unproductive. It not so much the people stating "I like it, so all's well" that may or may not hinder development, it's people who go "I WANT TEN TONS OF FEATURES ADDED YESTERDAY OR ELSE I CAN'T PLAY!". No wonder everyone who might be in a position to change anything sooner or later turns a blind eye deaf ear...

Attorneyatlawl · March 2015

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Many of us love the current UI. My opinion is many of the addon's ruin it. I'm not looking to play WOW or SWTOR.

That's delightful, and no one is asking you to be forced to use a better UI. For the other 99 percent of the playerbase though, the user interface is sorely lacking in design, clarity, usability, and features. I've covered this at length for the better part of two years by now and others have too, but needing to maintain dozens of addons to make the UI live up to basic interface standards isn't a solution or acceptable substitute for a regular UI.

Some things such as seeing allied players names and guild tags overhead optionally with the health bar, or seeing numbers on your health and magicka bars, or buff timers for things you yourself are casting, text search for your inventory, a reply button for ingame mail, and dozens of other normal features and options either are missing outright due to the limited api, or have to be obtained in relatively clunky form and constantly updated, with even that often not preventing bugs causing crashes. There isn't even a minimap or basic combat log to see what hit you (Even with addons on that last one you just see you were hit for xxxxx damage, not what actually did it). This all not only gives the impression of a poor and shoddy product whether true or not, but it drives new players away who find they fight the user interface as much as they do their enemies.

Attorneyatlawl · March 2015

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

How do you know for certain things aren't broken? Let's take debuffs and damage over time abilities as an example. If you use an ability that places a DOT or debuff on your target, how do you know it actually worked?

You're talking about game mechanics now, not the UI. How is the UI broken if an enemy resists a skill of yours? There are enough hints in game to tell you whether you succeeded or not, you just need to read them.

So tell me, if I apply two fire based damage over time effects to my enemy, how do I know they both landed or not, how much time is left on them intuitively in a large fight, and if only one landed which of the two did? The UI woefully lacks in any info needed by people to take their game beyond casual dallying by default.

Obscure · March 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

How do you know for certain things aren't broken? Let's take debuffs and damage over time abilities as an example. If you use an ability that places a DOT or debuff on your target, how do you know it actually worked?

You're talking about game mechanics now, not the UI. How is the UI broken if an enemy resists a skill of yours? There are enough hints in game to tell you whether you succeeded or not, you just need to read them.

So tell me, if I apply two fire based damage over time effects to my enemy, how do I know they both landed or not, how much time is left on them intuitively in a large fight, and if only one landed which of the two did? The UI woefully lacks in any info needed by people to take their game beyond casual dallying by default.

See an actual minimalist UI would give you visual cues that were unique to each one, so you wouldn't have to go out of your way to get an add-on to track them numerically, you'd just be able to use your eye balls. The UI effectively requires add-on use to facilitate player input feedback. It's like playing golf, but without the flags to tell you were the effin' holes are; "Yeah just hit it in that general direction, it's somewhere around there."

KhajitFurTrader · March 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

So tell me, if I apply two fire based damage over time effects to my enemy, how do I know they both landed or not, how much time is left on them intuitively in a large fight, and if only one landed which of the two did? The UI woefully lacks in any info needed by people to take their game beyond casual dallying by default.

I would propose that, given the short time span that any DOT sits on an enemy, by the time it would take me to glimpse at the respective HUD element, process the information, check my magicka/stamina status to determine whether I have resources available to re-apply them, and then press the appropriate buttons, I would have used the same skills again anyway regardless. Yes, I might be slow on the uptake for your taste, but I don't see ESO as a twitch game, and when playing games in my free time, I actually like to think less than, say, while being on the job.

But since you seem to have already decided that everyone who feels that he doesn't need certain things from the UI is just "casually dallying", I'll happily continue to do just that, as long as the UI lets me.

Gix · March 2015

Sallington wrote: »

How do some of you people play without seeing half of the information that should be provided to the players?

And they'll never fix it, because modders to it for free (thank god).

I use my eyes and I make judgement based on what I see. I don't need some stinking UI overlay to tell me that some dude in heavy armor charging me with a two-handed sword wants me dead.

I also use my ears.

There's a few things I'd improve in the UI but, for the most part (when it comes to displaying information), most of the things that people are asking for are redundant.

Smiteye · March 2015

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

So tell me, if I apply two fire based damage over time effects to my enemy, how do I know they both landed or not, how much time is left on them intuitively in a large fight, and if only one landed which of the two did? The UI woefully lacks in any info needed by people to take their game beyond casual dallying by default.

I would propose that, given the short time span that any DOT sits on an enemy, by the time it would take me to glimpse at the respective HUD element, process the information, check my magicka/stamina status to determine whether I have resources available to re-apply them, and then press the appropriate buttons, I would have used the same skills again anyway regardless. Yes, I might be slow on the uptake for your taste, but I don't see ESO as a twitch game, and when playing games in my free time, I actually like to think less than, say, while being on the job.

But since you seem to have already decided that everyone who feels that he doesn't need certain things from the UI is just "casually dallying", I'll happily continue to do just that, as long as the UI lets me.

In other words you dont know. You just spam the spell when you think it's about time and hope you are not wasting tons of magicka/stamina in the process and extra time you could have used other skills instead during. I dont care if you want to play casually but dont restrict those of us who want to know what the game actually is doing instead of just judging off of vague and completely imprecise visuals.

Craven_Killmore · March 2015

I'll give you a list of current/high download/popular addons to help you play the game, mainly a intuitive Ui.

First download Minion, addon docking station program (like curse for another game)

get:

Destinations
Dustman
Foundry Tactical Combat - the new and best ui
Harvest Map
LootDrop with veteran Xp display
LoreBooks
Lost Treasure
SkyShards
Slightly Improved Exp Bar (fixed new version)
Sous Chef (provision helper)
Stow It Auto-Sheather (game never auto sheathes, so annoying)
Weapon Charge alert (shows when charge is under 20%)
Wykkds Auto Repair
Wykkds Quest tracker (makes your quests tidy with dropdown tabs and alot more)
Minimap by Fyrakin (new version of zzmap)

all these addons are updated for march 8th and cause no corruption or game issues, pick and choose what you need.

Get the ui addon, and your done, you're welcome.
http://minion.mmoui.com/ to get started.

DON"T PLAY THE GAME WITHOUT ADDONS, JUST DON"T DO IT

Roechacca · March 2015

You're gonna ruin my RP emmersion . I don't want this even though it's easy and user friendly because I might have to hit a toggle switch and I'm lazy . Just enjoy the game the way it is guys , we don't need it better . I like stale and boring and inovative things no one else likes . My opinion matters .

BigM · March 2015

I find this funny, if they made a UI people would complain they want it changed this way or that way. With the ability to make addons so you can pick how the different addons work for you. Oh and if you will say Authors of these addons don't like to do it you are wrong.

ZoS can't win no matter what they do. But in my opinion keep it like it is and let addon authors do their thing.

Zershar_Vemod · March 2015

Foundry Tactical Combat.

KhajitFurTrader · March 2015

Smiteye wrote: »

In other words you dont know. You just spam the spell when you think it's about time and hope you are not wasting tons of magicka/stamina in the process and extra time you could have used other skills instead during. I dont care if you want to play casually but dont restrict those of us who want to know what the game actually is doing instead of just judging off of vague and completely imprecise visuals.

When have I ever expressed that I want to restrict you? If you had really read the previous conversation, instead of just jumping on the very last post and taking it completely out of its context, it might have dawned on you that I was repudiating the biased proposition that the UI is supposedly "broken", when it is functional, just not in ways that some would like. I even said that there is no question about whether it could use improvement.

But you seem to think that my stating that I like the UI as it is and the information it provides is sufficient is restricting you somehow. Interesting. Tell me, do you feel threatened by playstyles different from yours? Do you fear that opinions deviating from your own might force you to play the game in ways you don't like? Nah, I'm just kidding.

You hopefully see, the fear that the own preferred way of playing might get steamrolled exists on both sides of the fence. Rationally discussing issues is productive in cases like this. Reverting to hyperbole or reproaches definitely is not.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · March 2015

I have actually never felt in PvE that I desperately need a better combat UI than the default one. I use FTC, but only because I am curious and sometimes want to watch a reasonably detailed combat log. I keep most of the floating numbers turned off, and I totally get the immersion argument.

What I don't like is almost every single UI out of combat: inventory, banks, guild stores, crafting dialogs, mail, character sheets, chat, messages, the group finder. This part of the UI design is severely lacking in many fundamental aspects of usability, most importantly in terms of clarity, consistency and ease of use. The group finder tool isn't even working properly, but that is another matter.

Could we please try not to conflate these two very separate issues of combat UI and out-of-combat UI? The discussion would be in a much better place if we didn't always have immersion pitted against clarity, for no reason. It is perfectly possible to add a "reply" button to the mail UI without ruining immersion, and I do not see how making the inventory screens easier to navigate would make the inventory UI more obtrusive to anyone.

Tandor · March 2015

I love the minimalist UI, it has the right feel for an ES game and provides all I need. I'd be happy to change the potion selector but apart from that it's fine.

We've had the discussion before, but the reason a lot of players are opposed even to optional enhancements is because groups might stipulate that you have them turned on. As it is, the default UI is generally accepted and if people want to enhance it with addons they can. I haven't seen the UI and controls for the console versions so can't comment on those.

Tonnopesce · March 2015

Op's:
The ui suck and this is the reason why i suck when i get defeated (by other players ) for sure the only reason is cuz my opponent have better add-ons!

Nothing against an actually official option to have what you ask on screen but it seems that lazymax devs dont want to add it.

Imo numbers distract me and i cannot focus on the battle, but i still use add-ons for things not included on your list and with add ons i can customize my game experience 360° so this sistem makes evryone happy, the only thing it needs is an official support for the people who made the most popular ones and give this people a reason to continue to work on them.

Troneon · March 2015

The UI is worse than some games that are over 10 years old.

They will never update it because that would require a large amount of coding, time, resources and costs.

They will rely on player created addons to keep their crap UI system going.

If it was not for the player created addons most of the community would of stopped playing a long long time ago.

daemonios · March 2015

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Op's:
The ui suck and this is the reason why i suck when i get defeated (by other players ) for sure the only reason is cuz my opponent have better add-ons!

Nothing against an actually official option to have what you ask on screen but it seems that lazymax devs dont want to add it.

Imo numbers distract me and i cannot focus on the battle, but i still use add-ons for things not included on your list and with add ons i can customize my game experience 360° so this sistem makes evryone happy, the only thing it needs is an official support for the people who made the most popular ones and give this people a reason to continue to work on them.

I agree that combat numbers (actual DPS, HPS, etc.) probably shouldn't be in the UI. Same for Skyshards and Lorebooks. But then why does ZOS allow add-ons to go get those numbers from the game or display random pointers on the map? People who are afraid of l33t players knowing your DPS? Guess what - if you try to join a l33t group you'll be asked to post these numbers yourself. For some content, at the very least they'll ask you to post the achievement to prove you've already completed it. Solution? Comply if you want to play in those groups, or find other more casual groups if you don't.

On the other hand, other combat statistics SHOULD be added to the UI. I can't know all of my attributes and resistances from the character sheet, for instance. I can't tell which buffs or debuffs are on me or other players - and people, if anyone says there are visual cues again, I think I'm going postal; many visual cues were removed or are so minimal or similar to other effects that it's impossible to get that information from looking at the characters. It was a good idea, badly executed.

And then there are UI issues that have nothing to do with min-maxing or competitiveness. Proper guild store search, proper inventory categorization, proper trait and recipe information... These are about letting you play ESO instead of playing Inventory Manager Online.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · March 2015

They can't rely on player created add-ons for the console releases, so it's likely that all their UI designers are focusing on that. Right now, there's probably nobody working on the UI for the PC/Mac version of the game.

daemonios · March 2015

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

They can't rely on player created add-ons for the console releases, so it's likely that all their UI designers are focusing on that. Right now, there's probably nobody working on the UI for the PC/Mac version of the game.

Who in their right mind forks the project in such a way that they can't use one version's UI in the other, or at least easily port parts of it between versions?

Zorvan · March 2015

Well see, Bethesda made bug filled games with craptastic UI's for years because Todd Howard learned they could let the suckers, er customers, fix the games downsides for them.

Bethesda's overlord, Zenimax, observed this. So when Zenimax created Zenimax Online Studios, ZOS thought it was going to be a cakewalk. All they had to do was make an mmo that managed to boot up and make it online and the suckers, er customers, would do the rest.

As I'm sure you've seen, ZOS can't be more thrilled they don't have to touch the UI themselves ever again unless they're absolutely bored. As I'm sure you've also seen, it took them a while to catch on that they were the ones who were going to have to fix their own bugs.

So, anyway. TL;DR. You all are stuck with add-ons if you want anything done.

omfgitsbatman · March 2015

I have gotten asked by many people whether or not I will be
Playing on console. My simplest answer is "I wouldn't be able to play the game without add-ons."
I play a healer and frankly cannot possibly heal effectively without being able to see who my shields go onto. I would blame myself when people died because they went into content with too little health because I wouldn't know what their health was.
If I switched to dps, I wouldn't know whether or not my dps was acceptable or even close to.
I would have a hard time keeping track of things like food buffs. I wouldn't be able to quickly see how damaged my gear was. I would accidentally deconstruct necessary armor when I'm moving a bit too quickly. I would not be able to tell what I actually sold on the guild stores. I would not be able to find things easily in my bags. I would not have a clock in game to be able to tell the time. I would have trouble remembering when to feed my horse.

I got all these add-ons because I felt like there was a need for me to be able to do all these things. Without these abilities, I would not be able to play the game without getting super frustrated. If I'm constantly frustrated, I wouldn't be playing long.

eventide03b14a_ESO · March 2015

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

[*] 5 people come on here complaining they like minimal UI (confusing the menu UI with just the HUD)

Just for the record, I was not, nor will I ever, complain that I like the UI as it is. I don't think that's even possible.

Can the UI be improved? Absolutely no question at all.

How should the UI be improved? That's where any discussion about it gets interesting.

Can the UI be considered "broken"? No, it is functional. For some it may be an almost unbearable lowest common denominator, for others it may be an unobtrusive blessing that let's them enjoy the world more. For many more it might be anything in-between.

But calling it outright "broken" is just a way to convey a subjective feeling, not a fact per se. And this is what I view as being unproductive. It not so much the people stating "I like it, so all's well" that may or may not hinder development, it's people who go "I WANT TEN TONS OF FEATURES ADDED YESTERDAY OR ELSE I CAN'T PLAY!". No wonder everyone who might be in a position to change anything sooner or later turns a blind eye deaf ear...

I wouldn't categorize it as "broken", just half-assed. Again, it's not the default HUD that I have a problem with it's the fact that I need an addon for things like:

Sub categories for items.
A way to clean up my guild bank.
A way to permanently mark things as junk. (Not UI related per se)
Show known traits and recipes when not near a crafting station.

To name a few.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Many of us love the current UI. My opinion is many of the addon's ruin it. I'm not looking to play WOW or SWTOR.

That's delightful, and no one is asking you to be forced to use a better UI. For the other 99 percent of the playerbase though, the user interface is sorely lacking in design, clarity, usability, and features. I've covered this at length for the better part of two years by now and others have too, but needing to maintain dozens of addons to make the UI live up to basic interface standards isn't a solution or acceptable substitute for a regular UI.

Some things such as seeing allied players names and guild tags overhead optionally with the health bar, or seeing numbers on your health and magicka bars, or buff timers for things you yourself are casting, text search for your inventory, a reply button for ingame mail, and dozens of other normal features and options either are missing outright due to the limited api, or have to be obtained in relatively clunky form and constantly updated, with even that often not preventing bugs causing crashes. There isn't even a minimap or basic combat log to see what hit you (Even with addons on that last one you just see you were hit for xxxxx damage, not what actually did it). This all not only gives the impression of a poor and shoddy product whether true or not, but it drives new players away who find they fight the user interface as much as they do their enemies.

I keep hearing this too. For some unknown reason people seem to think that asking for optional features means they are forced to use them. Maybe this will help:
op·tion·al
ˈäpSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
available to be chosen but not obligatory.
"a wide range of optional excursions is offered"
synonyms: voluntary, discretionary, not required, elective, noncompulsory, nonmandatory;

Nerio · March 2015

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

I have gotten asked by many people whether or not I will be
Playing on console. My simplest answer is "I wouldn't be able to play the game without add-ons."
I play a healer and frankly cannot possibly heal effectively without being able to see who my shields go onto. I would blame myself when people died because they went into content with too little health because I wouldn't know what their health was. \

It's really easy to see who shields go on because they actually get a shield around them.

tallenn · March 2015

I agree completely with the OP. Not even considering combat-oriented addons (I could easily live without them), I want to be able to filter my inventory better than the provided UI. I want to be be able to filter crafting mats by tradeskill, and filter armor by heavy/light/medium.

I want to not have to re-enter the search criteria every time I look at a new guild merchant.

These are all simple things that should be in the default UI. I will take the account copy deal for PS4, just because it's a good deal, but as things stand now, I seriously doubt I'll play it enough to want to buy any crowns for console.