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There Needs to be a LIMIT on how many CP's or the CP system will END the game.
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Sky Chancellor✭✭✭ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »Sky Chancellor wrote: »People will get gain CP's and ruin this game for new players down the road. There is a huge difference in power for those who get these CP's. New players will be turned off by this, and not want to play (years down the road from now). There needs to be a limit or simply there is no future for this game (it will die with the CP system).
I did a poll last week and apparently people think there is no advantage in CP's. They don't believe there is a difference between 360 and 3600. These people CLEARLY DO NOT understand what is about to happen to ESO if they allow players to maximize their CP's. You could say something like... well it will take a long time, it WILL NOT for players who play 24/7. They will gain an advantage that will make the VR power gap, look like NOTHING.
Also, the EXP potions are P2W with the CP system being involved. They give you an advantage in gaining CP's faster and therefore will create a gap between players who don't use them.
People on here need to speak up about how this system is going to ruin the game. There needs to be some people who understand that the gap that is about to be created will ruin the game for new players, and even existing players who don't play 24/7 and use EXP potions from the Crown shop.
you are worrying too much about the system. as mentioned above EQ had a similar system. if they keep the CP experience requirement constant and not change it, the amount of time will be substantially less as you progress through the system, and levels are added. don't forget that the more levels/CPs you ahve the more powerful you are, and the less time it takes to get the needed 400k per point. i won't take the 24/7 comment seriously because you it would literally kill you to play 24/7, so thats just dramatics for the sake of dramatics.
i agree with the experience potions theory though. the other question is does it stack with the subscriber's buff? this, i am not interested in supporting. im not concerned with a power-gap issue, as much as a "*** player with a CP ego".
Don't worry people will grind the points out and find away to max out there character, then ever thought possibly before the patch was released. People will find away. It doesn't matter what words we call these people "CP people" or what not. Perhaps the advantage in having more points is not important to PVE people, and maybe the gap is more important for pvp balance down the road (which many on here supposedly don't play). That is why some people haven't understood the importance of this topic.
The potions will most likely stack. Why? Because it's about making money. They will stack.0 -
Sky Chancellor✭✭✭
People want to complete the content in game. If a player has more CP's they offer an advantage to the TEAM. With a higher chance of completing the content, and completing it faster. More CP's equals a higher chance of finding a group and being a BETTER contributor. If a group is looking to complete high level content and want a really good dps player, and one player says I have 1000 cp's and I am good dps, and another says I have 50 cp's, then obviously if the group wants to do better they will take the 1000 cp player. That is how it works. Thanks for the post.0 -
Sky Chancellor✭✭✭I get that PvP players want even playing field where everyone are "equal" and for that cap that everyone can achieve is prolly needed.
For PvE many like progression even little one but still something to aim towards to. If there would be cap that can be obtained in few months then it's like you just finished the game nothing more to aim towards to. I'm already seeing this with my VR14 char. I do pledges and attend the trials but that's it. I might get some new gear but the char itself is just as is and it's getting boring not to be able to grow it more.
You will still have progression with a cap. It will just create a more variety of different builds, and everyone will have a chance of reaching that cap much quicker if the cap is lower. People will just have to choose which stars are most important for their build. This makes the game have more build diversity, and realistically for most players will still create a lot of extra playing time to reach all the CP points.0 -
Sky Chancellor✭✭✭If the pvp was symmetrical I would see your point, but it's a team game. If you don't have a lot of champion points yourself, there will be a good chance that a teammate does.
I think it's a great thing to have virtually limitless progression in a game like this. It gets rid of my urge to be on a level playing field with everyone, because the playing field isn't level anymore.
I think the more dedicated players should get a return on their time. I think it will add depth to the combat when players have to start questioning the ability of their enemies. It won't be so much of a "our 15 guys assaulting can beat your 5 guys defending" game.
I have to admit thinking about the situation a new player will be in, with no champion points versus our head start. I wouldn't like being at a disadvantage, but it's the nature of the game and I like that the game is setup that way. I don't ever expect to be near the top of the list, but the idea that one players character can be statistically better than all the rest is awesome to me. None of this everyone gets a trophy stuff for me please.
I understand that "you like the game is set up that way". But, it will not be good for new players and without new players a game dies. That is why with the CP system the way it is now, with full CP's allowed, the game will die. You cannot allow a gap like that to be created. You want the game to welcome other players, and give them a realistic shot of reaching max CP. Creating a gap of 1000's of CP is too much.0 -
Sky Chancellor✭✭✭Knootewoot wrote: »I already read in chat (in PvP) "i have to sleep now, just hit the 24 hour mark". Some people just seem to be without a job or study. You cannot compete with that if you work 9-10 hours and have a wife and kids and also got other things to do.
While i can play 3 hours a day maybe 4, some people play 6 times longer then me a day. So also will gain CP at a much faster rate. The gap will be bigger each day until i cannot compete anymore in PvP.
And it is not the people that need to change, but the game's levelling system. They need to keep it in balance.
I understand people who spent more time think they should have an advantage. But tell that to the empty servers when CP system fails. So far the 1.6.3 PvP is not very appealing. I get one-shotted everytime i see someone. That gets boring real quick.
The 1.6 depends heavily on CP. The more you have, the larger the gap will be. As you said Knootewoot, it will not help more normal players, but benefit those who do not have jobs or have anything else to do in the real world. We are on the same page here. Thank you for the post.0 -
ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »Sky Chancellor wrote: »People will get gain CP's and ruin this game for new players down the road. There is a huge difference in power for those who get these CP's. New players will be turned off by this, and not want to play (years down the road from now). There needs to be a limit or simply there is no future for this game (it will die with the CP system).
I did a poll last week and apparently people think there is no advantage in CP's. They don't believe there is a difference between 360 and 3600. These people CLEARLY DO NOT understand what is about to happen to ESO if they allow players to maximize their CP's. You could say something like... well it will take a long time, it WILL NOT for players who play 24/7. They will gain an advantage that will make the VR power gap, look like NOTHING.
Also, the EXP potions are P2W with the CP system being involved. They give you an advantage in gaining CP's faster and therefore will create a gap between players who don't use them.
People on here need to speak up about how this system is going to ruin the game. There needs to be some people who understand that the gap that is about to be created will ruin the game for new players, and even existing players who don't play 24/7 and use EXP potions from the Crown shop.
you are worrying too much about the system. as mentioned above EQ had a similar system. if they keep the CP experience requirement constant and not change it, the amount of time will be substantially less as you progress through the system, and levels are added. don't forget that the more levels/CPs you ahve the more powerful you are, and the less time it takes to get the needed 400k per point. i won't take the 24/7 comment seriously because you it would literally kill you to play 24/7, so thats just dramatics for the sake of dramatics.
i agree with the experience potions theory though. the other question is does it stack with the subscriber's buff? this, i am not interested in supporting. im not concerned with a power-gap issue, as much as a "*** player with a CP ego".
the difference in overall strength bewtween the EQ system and the champion system is like day and night.
and that is the true problem. instead of horizontal progression you have a very steep vertical progression with certain breaking points(passives) on top of that especially the first 600-1200 points are by far to powerfull. but allready contain the XP grind of 200000-400000 VRs...
the problem is, there will be some freaks grinding that much completly stomping PvP afterwards, while in PvE certain threshhold of CPs will be demanded by you or you won´t get a spot, its the same now you don´t get a trial spot as vet 3 char in 99% of the cases and you will not in the near future if have not grinded to 120 CPs to get the +12% crit passiva e.g.
currently its free but i doubt it stays that way expect it to be some cashshop item.I am not sure why the CP system is against build diversity ? can't you respec your champion points after all or is it at a too higher cost ? (I haven't tested on PTS).
It would be nice if we could save how we have spent our champion points and have several set ups.
ZOS needs to make revenues - and a CP-respec option is a perfect way to do so. 150 crowns each = 10 respecs if you stay subbed each month seams reasonable...
ill agree completely with PVP getting a bit of a hose job on this. i had said shortly after getting good information on the system. i still don't agree with there being a issue and i don't see why people always complain about a bar being set. yeah, people are going to require "X" CPs for some activities. there will be some that require legendary gear. don't join them...PVP do not always have to be fair. They played longer they get stronger.. Don't see the problem.
I however think that getting all point should be almost impossible. So make the CP exp needed higher with a % for every CP you gain. So the first ones come really easy and all get some. And the late ones are really really hard to get.
That will give all people some CP and a chance, and balance people around the middle.
my normal response would be:
no, that won't be necessary. they will add more points to farm for more abilities to earn and it wont matter.
with ZoS's "great" business acuity:
its a crap shoot- you might be right or you might be wrong. i don't see anyone getting 3,600 CPs simply from the sheer boredom of earning themSky Chancellor wrote: »ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »Sky Chancellor wrote: »People will get gain CP's and ruin this game for new players down the road. There is a huge difference in power for those who get these CP's. New players will be turned off by this, and not want to play (years down the road from now). There needs to be a limit or simply there is no future for this game (it will die with the CP system).
I did a poll last week and apparently people think there is no advantage in CP's. They don't believe there is a difference between 360 and 3600. These people CLEARLY DO NOT understand what is about to happen to ESO if they allow players to maximize their CP's. You could say something like... well it will take a long time, it WILL NOT for players who play 24/7. They will gain an advantage that will make the VR power gap, look like NOTHING.
Also, the EXP potions are P2W with the CP system being involved. They give you an advantage in gaining CP's faster and therefore will create a gap between players who don't use them.
People on here need to speak up about how this system is going to ruin the game. There needs to be some people who understand that the gap that is about to be created will ruin the game for new players, and even existing players who don't play 24/7 and use EXP potions from the Crown shop.
you are worrying too much about the system. as mentioned above EQ had a similar system. if they keep the CP experience requirement constant and not change it, the amount of time will be substantially less as you progress through the system, and levels are added. don't forget that the more levels/CPs you ahve the more powerful you are, and the less time it takes to get the needed 400k per point. i won't take the 24/7 comment seriously because you it would literally kill you to play 24/7, so thats just dramatics for the sake of dramatics.
i agree with the experience potions theory though. the other question is does it stack with the subscriber's buff? this, i am not interested in supporting. im not concerned with a power-gap issue, as much as a "*** player with a CP ego".
Don't worry people will grind the points out and find away to max out there character, then ever thought possibly before the patch was released. People will find away. It doesn't matter what words we call these people "CP people" or what not. Perhaps the advantage in having more points is not important to PVE people, and maybe the gap is more important for pvp balance down the road (which many on here supposedly don't play). That is why some people haven't understood the importance of this topic.
The potions will most likely stack. Why? Because it's about making money. They will stack.
this is a problem i would point at ZoS more than just the players. if they would get testing done better the first time, there wouldn't be so many issues. some of their moves seemed to act as if they think they are the first MMO in world history. clear examples of good, bad, workable, and unworkable ideas and concepts are out there and they tend to seem to not know about any of them. yes i know how "rough" programming is i won't entertain that topic.
to everyone preaching about how "new players keep the game alive".... stop, its not "new" players its the "consistent" paying players that keep a game alive. i highly doubt they are interested in getting the 320 million people in the United States onto the NA server to "keep their game alive".......I will work. I will save. I will sacrifice. I will endure. I will fight cheerfully and do my utmost, as if the whole issue of the struggle depended on me alone.
Martin A. Treptow
1894-19180 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »to everyone preaching about how "new players keep the game alive".... stop, its not "new" players its the "consistent" paying players that keep a game alive. i highly doubt they are interested in getting the 320 million people in the United States onto the NA server to "keep their game alive".......
have to disagree here, every game has a loss of "old" playerbase this loss has to be covert by new players to keep the game healthy. players get older over the existing time of a game, the former student may get a job and a family negating his options to play or in the worst case by the grim reaper.
at that point you need newcomers but if you place the "north face of the Eiger" in front of them to be climbed to have any fun at all they will not stay in 99% of the cases. and exactly that is the champion system.
i´m comming from a game that faced exactly this issue with a broadly hated addon, the sad part is Matt Frior was a vital part in the development of that addon and he obviously learned nothing from it. [if you are scratching your head wich addon i mean its ToA for DAoC] as he is doing the exact same mistakes as 11 years ago, a to steep system with to steep breakingpoints resulting a horrible grindfest to reach mandatory goals to participate on an equal lvl.
sure you can sugar-coat that pill and say to yourself i do not have to play with them but in the end you will or you are going to leave the game. and here we are at the start again, needed newcomers to coverup losses in the player base...
spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
Crowzer✭✭✭Doing the 5 daily PvP quests + Vet Pledge... Not even gain 100K. So how long to reach the 3600 CP ? Ten years ?0 -
Sky Chancellor wrote: »Another thing is... what about just creating a limit for the sake of a limit to create BUILD diversity. Why not make a limit for points available so people can create unique builds based on the points given. This makes a lot more sense rather than to allow everyone the ability to get ALL the points. I don't think that makes the system fun or exciting. Thinking about where the points should go.... making decisions that are meaningful should make the system better for the short run and the long run.
By your logic, players should also not have access to all 320+ skill points either because, you know, diversity.....
If only they hadn't removed the LOL button, you'd have accrued quite a few.
I think you would get the lol.
it dosent matter how many skillpoints you have you can only have 7 armor, 3 jewel, 2 weapon, 10 abilities and 2 ults an any given time; you are limited by this and make a build with these options, even if you have 320 your set up is only capable of using a fraction of that. cp is completely different every point is ALWAYS IN USE.
It would be nice if there was diversity from your gear/ability choice AND diversity from limited cp0 -
Sky Chancellor✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »If the pvp was symmetrical I would see your point, but it's a team game. If you don't have a lot of champion points yourself, there will be a good chance that a teammate does.
I think it's a great thing to have virtually limitless progression in a game like this. It gets rid of my urge to be on a level playing field with everyone, because the playing field isn't level anymore.
I think the more dedicated players should get a return on their time. I think it will add depth to the combat when players have to start questioning the ability of their enemies. It won't be so much of a "our 15 guys assaulting can beat your 5 guys defending" game.
I have to admit thinking about the situation a new player will be in, with no champion points versus our head start. I wouldn't like being at a disadvantage, but it's the nature of the game and I like that the game is setup that way. I don't ever expect to be near the top of the list, but the idea that one players character can be statistically better than all the rest is awesome to me. None of this everyone gets a trophy stuff for me please.
I see where you are coming from and I respect that.
On the other side of the coin...
People play these games to have fun.....losing 100% of the time is not fun.
For that reason the game has to have a way to equalise people or at least make them competitive to some degree.
This is not single game [cant believe I just said that lol]...so you have to keep "everyone" happy.
Even the bad players have to feel PVP gives them some reason to continue playing.
I really like the idea of a running limit on the CP.
So after 365 days no one would have more than 300 CP for instance.
Those that grind are regulated from a run away situation.
Those that have no time to spare don't get completely left behind.
The playerbase as a whole is more equal.
I agree with the OP though.
There does need to be a cap for build diversity sake.
No one wants the situation where everyone with 3600 cp has identical class/race/loadout/gear.
The CP cap is the only way to stop this.
Thank Rune for the post (and for everyone who has been posting on my thread) to voice their opinions on this important subject. I think build diversity is a strength of ESO, but just like any other game it can also improve. The CP system is a way for build diversity to improve, while giving many players a chance to increase their strength and separate themselves from new players. It's a great goal to set out to get X amount of CP points for a particular build. We just need to make sure this cap exists and that its realistic for new players to catch up in the future without spending years. Thanks again for the post Rune Relic.0 -
Sky Chancellor✭✭✭Doing the 5 daily PvP quests + Vet Pledge... Not even gain 100K. So how long to reach the 3600 CP ? Ten years ?
Players will find a incredible way to gain CP fast, and will baffle the developers of the system.... this always happens and then the developer thinks of some way to slow down the progression of the player. Sometimes they claim its an exploit or whatever, but most of the time we are just talking about very determined individuals who play 24/7 and want to max out their character.1 -
Joejudas✭✭✭✭✭so there already isnt any new content coming out...so lets limit the players on how much they can level. thats a terrible idea.0
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Sky Chancellor✭✭✭dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »Sky Chancellor wrote: »Another thing is... what about just creating a limit for the sake of a limit to create BUILD diversity. Why not make a limit for points available so people can create unique builds based on the points given. This makes a lot more sense rather than to allow everyone the ability to get ALL the points. I don't think that makes the system fun or exciting. Thinking about where the points should go.... making decisions that are meaningful should make the system better for the short run and the long run.
By your logic, players should also not have access to all 320+ skill points either because, you know, diversity.....
If only they hadn't removed the LOL button, you'd have accrued quite a few.
I think you would get the lol.
it dosent matter how many skillpoints you have you can only have 7 armor, 3 jewel, 2 weapon, 10 abilities and 2 ults an any given time; you are limited by this and make a build with these options, even if you have 320 your set up is only capable of using a fraction of that. cp is completely different every point is ALWAYS IN USE.
It would be nice if there was diversity from your gear/ability choice AND diversity from limited cp
Thanks for the post Dylan, this is what I am trying to tell dharbert. It's not about laughing at people on here, it's about coming up with practical solutions/ideas for the CP system. I find it to be funny that someone people think that CP will not create an incredible gap with 3600 points available. 25% increased crit damage (on heals as well),25% more magic damage, 25% regen to all stats, reduced costs of all spells of 25% etc. etc..... What type of an advantage would this give a player over a new player? I am pretty sure the new player would be smoked in pvp unless the veteran player sat there and let the new player win.
As for PVE, the stats help the player become more effective in every single way possible. As you mentioned Dylan, these stats are passive and can affect ALL your skills. You can possibly benefit from almost every single star. Separating yourself from a new player, with a gap that would make the Veteran system look like NOTHING. As a VR1 I took a VR14 in pvp, it is possible. In this scenario, I imagine it would nearly impossible to match up with someone with 100's of more points. If this gap is too big it will discourage new players.... OBVIOUSLY.
It's discouraging that "some" people don't understand how the CP system will RUIN the game with a gap like this. Not to mention the system would be boring with max points available.1 -
WhiskyBob✭✭✭✭✭Without a single champion point you are nothing more but a worm with ZERO value in pve and pvp market.
3600 champion points is basically ascention into godhood.
This will be the end of this game.
In about 6 months from release, perhaps lil bit later, newcomers will notice how far behind they are and that they stand no chance in pvp and have no value in pve compared to older players unless they dedicate themselves to months of mindless grind.
I was HOPING champion system will allow, as they mentioned before, further customization (aka - specialization) towards gamestyle you like. It does not. In the end you can have all passives and all perks.
I think zenimax thinks that making people basically grind 1440 more veterean levels in XP (i think i count it right? 400k * 3600 / 1mil) will make people stay.Edited by WhiskyBob on February 23, 2015 7:41AM0 -
Kragorn✭✭✭✭✭
I admire your optimism.Sky Chancellor wrote: »New players will be turned off by this, and not want to play (years down the road from now).
As you said, this issue is not here yet and will be addressed in due time.
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Sky Chancellor✭✭✭ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »to everyone preaching about how "new players keep the game alive".... stop, its not "new" players its the "consistent" paying players that keep a game alive. i highly doubt they are interested in getting the 320 million people in the United States onto the NA server to "keep their game alive".......
have to disagree here, every game has a loss of "old" playerbase this loss has to be covert by new players to keep the game healthy. players get older over the existing time of a game, the former student may get a job and a family negating his options to play or in the worst case by the grim reaper.
at that point you need newcomers but if you place the "north face of the Eiger" in front of them to be climbed to have any fun at all they will not stay in 99% of the cases. and exactly that is the champion system.
i´m comming from a game that faced exactly this issue with a broadly hated addon, the sad part is Matt Frior was a vital part in the development of that addon and he obviously learned nothing from it. [if you are scratching your head wich addon i mean its ToA for DAoC] as he is doing the exact same mistakes as 11 years ago, a to steep system with to steep breakingpoints resulting a horrible grindfest to reach mandatory goals to participate on an equal lvl.
sure you can sugar-coat that pill and say to yourself i do not have to play with them but in the end you will or you are going to leave the game. and here we are at the start again, needed newcomers to coverup losses in the player base...
Thanks for the post Tank. If you love the game.... and I am talking to everyone on here who does.... You will want new players to feel like they have a chance to grind out these CP's (in a realistic time period, not years) and be able to compete with other players on a equal playing field. The most crazy thing I have read on here is... "the CP points won't make a big gap because of diminishing returns put into each star", in the end don't you get a huge advantage when you get a star maxed out? How about several maxed out stars? 25%, 25%, 25% all passive bonuses which can affect all your skills and be active all the time. Huge increase in strength for your character.
Also, with the ability to max out more stars a player will have the option to create different builds that another player wouldn't be able to create. A good example is that if you have the magic star damage maxed out, you might want to stick with those skills and not sacrifice any damage (by taking a fire damage skill which has only a few points into it). It just creates issues which shouldn't even be a factor in end game. Let me play for another year so I can max out a few more stars and create this build please? I don't think so. Players will quit, and the game will be attractive to players who have spent countless hours making their character in PVP/PVE Gods. In other words, players who have the most time to invest in the system over the course of years will be the ones who want to stay and dominate the game. New players will laugh and leave when they see the difference in their character compared to a veteran character. Then the veteran character will say something like "hey, don't worry you can catch up to me in just a couple of years" . That is not going to be a winning formula for this game.
Another thing that can happen is that ZOS makes it easier for new players to gain points. In other words, you want to grind all the points now? Don't worry we can give those points away to new players later for a fraction of the time you spent grinding them. Perhaps there will be a way to just buy them in the Crown shop. Wasting the time for players who originally invested in the system.1 -
sirston✭✭✭✭✭your telling me a v14 that been PVPing for the last 4-5months should not be able to advance until new players are some what caught up? To me that makes me want to hate new players even more.
Whitestakes Revenge
WoodElf Mag-Warden
Sirston
Magickia Dragonknight
T0XIC
Pride Of The Pact
Vehemence
The Crimson Order
victoria aut mors0 -
Sky Chancellor✭✭✭your telling me a v14 that been PVPing for the last 4-5months should not be able to advance until new players are some what caught up? To me that makes me want to hate new players even more.
I am VR14. What I am saying is that the gap should be lessened from 3600. That ZOS should think about new players coming in the game a few years from now, instead of their wallets. In the long term it may even benefit them financially to create less CP's available, in order to bring in new players.
Less than 3600 CP's should be the number. What is the number? I think that people on here could come up with a number that is reasonable, and that would create cool build diversity. I don't know what that number should be. Three trees is 360 points, so that is one of the logical numbers. That is still a lot of grinding Sirston that can be done with that many points. That should keep you busy for quite awhile. Although, don't be surprised when people are able to grind those points out before you do (long before you do). Unless you play 24/7 its going to take along time to get 360 points, even with starting with 70 (like myself). Thanks for post Sirston.0 -
Merlight✭✭✭✭✭
Doesn't sound very logical to me. That would either eliminate all the r120 passives, as you're better off spreading the points into other signs; or if these were extremely powerful, minimal diversity. We should be glad they've cut down from the 14k CPs they started withSky Chancellor wrote: »Three trees is 360 points, so that is one of the logical numbers.
EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future. ― Richard A. Bartle
Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal. ― lordrichter
... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it. ― Santie Claws0 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149933/why-champion-system-will-kill-the-game-if-its-implemented-as-is <= You mean like this post?
As I came to the conclusion a long time ago, the best way to make the progression smoother for everybody is to remove the steps (X CP unlocks this bonus) and implement a progression towards a max amount of points.
I.E.: For the 12% crit, instead of unlocking it at 30 CP, every CP invested in the tree could give you some % of crit and the more CPs you invest the less crit you gain until you reach the cap at 12% for 30CP invested.Edited by TehMagnus on February 23, 2015 3:36PM2 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭so there already isnt any new content coming out...so lets limit the players on how much they can level. thats a terrible idea.
its not about limiting your lvl time, but limiting the time a newcomer must spend to reach a competetive power lvl. otherwise he will just went on to another game leaving this game in a constant decline.
for making up lets say the first 100 CP have to deliver 80-90% of the power provided by the CP system (including passives etc) and not 3300+
that way there would be a true dimnishing return in the CP system wich currently is simply not the case.spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"1 -
Shadesofkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭The problem I keep seeing with these sorts of posts is that they insist that limits are good. Limits must be reasoned and balanced otherwise you end up with limits for the sake of limits. Nothing about limiting how many CP's a player can gain has ever sounded reasoned or well balanced. Even arguments for the sake of the new players are usually rife with cries that these imaginary new players will find it unfair and leave. They'll have plenty of chances to gain that experience, just like the rest of us. It will take them the same amount of time (maybe even less) to get to where we are...We just happened to have gotten their first.
As for diversity: my Heavy Armored Tank might someday have all 3600 Champion Points, but he will still be different *to me* than the guy who is playing the Light Armored Fire Mage (both builds I've leveled, so I'm using them as an example).
I'm not concerned that said Fire Mage player is also able to use block bash to gain back a small bit of health, I'm playing an Imperial, he's playing a Dunmer, I'm in heavy armor and he's in light. I'm tanking, he's doing DPS. The fact that he made it to this level is deserving of a nod of respect, not a whine that my diversity is compromised.
My initial gain of CP's will go towards the build I want, and yes eventually I might start putting them in other places, but that's a ways down the road and will do absolutely nothing to make me feel less diverse in my playing.0 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭@shadesofkin diversity requires being forced to make sacrifices.
You sacrifice armour for dps....or crit for stealth.
How are you sacrificing anything with CS ?
What have you ignored.....to make you a specialist and unique ?
With CS you sacrifice nothing....you can have it all.
You consider the actives/armour/weapon choice is enough.
I say the CS system negates a lot of the abilities that seperates your armour/weapon choice.
But yes ..the more diversity the better.
You obviously dont feel that way.
The CS is based on a pie chart of components and it takes up a big wedge of that pie.Edited by Rune_Relic on February 23, 2015 6:00PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
sirston✭✭✭✭✭Sky Chancellor wrote: »your telling me a v14 that been PVPing for the last 4-5months should not be able to advance until new players are some what caught up? To me that makes me want to hate new players even more.
I am VR14. What I am saying is that the gap should be lessened from 3600. That ZOS should think about new players coming in the game a few years from now, instead of their wallets. In the long term it may even benefit them financially to create less CP's available, in order to bring in new players.
Less than 3600 CP's should be the number. What is the number? I think that people on here could come up with a number that is reasonable, and that would create cool build diversity. I don't know what that number should be. Three trees is 360 points, so that is one of the logical numbers. That is still a lot of grinding Sirston that can be done with that many points. That should keep you busy for quite awhile. Although, don't be surprised when people are able to grind those points out before you do (long before you do). Unless you play 24/7 its going to take along time to get 360 points, even with starting with 70 (like myself). Thanks for post Sirston.
I mean don't get me wrong but this game in 6 months time is going to be harder from people below the level of veteran 1 due to people who are v14 atm have made millions of exp from finishing quest to killing people in pvp I mean I don't know my exp gain at this current time but ive been pvping and questing past v14 for a few months now and I wonder how much exp ive accumulated over that time? Am I going to get 200-500 CP points when they give us the rest? or is going to be 1000-2000? because the min someone max's their character out in Champion points he is going to be OP forever going to be hitting 40k uppercuts on lvl 40'sEdited by sirston on February 23, 2015 7:25PMWhitestakes Revenge
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Sirston
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T0XIC
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Sky Chancellor✭✭✭Shadesofkin wrote: »The problem I keep seeing with these sorts of posts is that they insist that limits are good. Limits must be reasoned and balanced otherwise you end up with limits for the sake of limits. Nothing about limiting how many CP's a player can gain has ever sounded reasoned or well balanced. Even arguments for the sake of the new players are usually rife with cries that these imaginary new players will find it unfair and leave. They'll have plenty of chances to gain that experience, just like the rest of us. It will take them the same amount of time (maybe even less) to get to where we are...We just happened to have gotten their first.
As for diversity: my Heavy Armored Tank might someday have all 3600 Champion Points, but he will still be different *to me* than the guy who is playing the Light Armored Fire Mage (both builds I've leveled, so I'm using them as an example).
I'm not concerned that said Fire Mage player is also able to use block bash to gain back a small bit of health, I'm playing an Imperial, he's playing a Dunmer, I'm in heavy armor and he's in light. I'm tanking, he's doing DPS. The fact that he made it to this level is deserving of a nod of respect, not a whine that my diversity is compromised.
My initial gain of CP's will go towards the build I want, and yes eventually I might start putting them in other places, but that's a ways down the road and will do absolutely nothing to make me feel less diverse in my playing.
Limiting points doesn't seem to be a good idea to you, because players can simply catch up? Think about what you're saying Shades. If a player wants to catch up it could take them years when you talk about how many points are available in the system. This is not a system which helps new players based on how many points are available. Then you talk about how ZOS could make it easier later. I don't doubt that they will when they see people leaving the game. Again, bringing up the point how ZOS will let people grind now, and then give away CP's later to new players. That would be a horrible idea for people who are going to invest the time into the system now. Doesn't that follow what ZOS has already done with the VR system. Let people grind it out, and then make it easier for players later by lessening the grind. How is that fair to the people who originally start playing. It isn't, it's just a way for ZOS to attempt to attract new players by disrespecting their current players (as they have already done).
Nonetheless, the system is boring. There is nothing interesting about being able to max out your points. I don't see a desire for new players to max out their points so they can be "exactly" like everyone else. That would be quite boring, even more boring than the current VR system. Even more of a grind than that was for them. It seems that many people actually WANT A HIGH AMOUNT OF GRINDING. I don't understand how that makes the game better. Choices and deciding where to put your points would make the game better. Not more grinding so I can catch up to another person. Just ridiculous and boring system.Edited by Sky Chancellor on February 23, 2015 7:31PM0 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think there will always be a power gap between new players and vet players, trying to change that only screws over your existing vet player base, which I don't think is a good idea. A new player shouldn't come in and expect to go toe-to-toe with someone that has been playing for months and years.
That said, I think maybe as the CS grows, they can have more tiered campaigns in cyrodiil so players are on even footing, like how they have a non-vet campaign now (not that that works perfectly, but could with some work). I also think that the fact they have stuff like diminishing returns and enlightenment to give a boost to those behind are already good enough. I mean, I can't speak for other vets, but I wouldn't play the game anymore if someone could come in and equal months of my work with a fraction of time played.
What I really don't like about the CS is they tiered passives you pick up as you put points in. I liked the concept of small bonuses as you added points in, but then suddenly having a huge gain like 12% extra crit is just going to make that many points equal to needing to be a given level for some players. I wish they didn't have those at all, but too late now. At this point, it would be better if they broke all those bonuses up into four part and the stages and you pick up, like 3% crit at 10 points, then another three at 20, etc. that way the power gap would be smaller for a player that had only put 75% as many points into that line. As it is now, having 30 points per line (90 total) is a huge power difference between having 29 points per line (87) and it shouldn't be like that IMO.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
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Sky Chancellor✭✭✭http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/149933/why-champion-system-will-kill-the-game-if-its-implemented-as-is <= You mean like this post?
As I came to the conclusion a long time ago, the best way to make the progression smoother for everybody is to remove the steps (X CP unlocks this bonus) and implement a progression towards a max amount of points.
I.E.: For the 12% crit, instead of unlocking it at 30 CP, every CP invested in the tree could give you some % of crit and the more CPs you invest the less crit you gain until you reach the cap at 12% for 30CP invested.
The system could be revamped, and done much better. Keeping the numbers we have in the game now, and simply creating less points in the system. The game was better with just a 3000 health number as opposed to bigger numbers anyways. Just create more value per point. Then create a cap. Perhaps the ability to max out three trees half way. This could be done with much less points. By simply leaving the numbers the way they are now, and allowing the points to have more value.
ZOS may think a grind will save this game, in the beginning I am sure some people will love it. In the end the grind will just create a gap. There has to be a limit of points available (which is far below max). It could would be a good idea to make the points count for more, and just keep the numbers we have in the game now.
That would be a winning formula, if ZOS knows what is best for them, they will change the CP system to something like I mentioned above. Less points, simple numbers, meaningful values.0 -
Sky Chancellor✭✭✭
I admire your optimism.Sky Chancellor wrote: »New players will be turned off by this, and not want to play (years down the road from now).
As you said, this issue is not here yet and will be addressed in due time.
If ZOS continues to fix things AFTER THEY BREAK, then when are going to see more and more people leave. Until there are no people left in the game. It's important to get things right the first time. But, the philosophy for ZOS has been thus far to create something and then just fix on the fly. Not a good thing when you want to keep people playing your game. It's almost like people have an expectation on here that ZOS "will make a mistake on the CP system" and "it's OK because just like everything else they will fix it next year or so".
That is not how you do things. You take time and do it right the first time. ZOS must think players on here have no idea of what they are doing. They're creating a grinding system so people will stick around. It might work for a little while, until a huge gap is created. Grinding has never been a good way to lure people in saying "Wow, this is the best MMO available, the grind is the best". Instead people will say, "The grind in that game is ridiculous and I am not investing my time into it". Zos needs to learn this before they put the system in place. It's obvious that it will fail.0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There is a limit on the number of Champion Points. What is the point of this post OP? I realize your concern about players having extra power, and I grant that is a concern. It is one reason that I am very glad that there is a low level pvp server. Perhaps some day there will be a High Champion point server? If that is your concern I do understand it, particularly in the case of low pvp servers, since a low level character with 3600 champion points would be at a great advantage to a newer pvp'er which in turn would kill low level pvp for all but established players. Then again I've always felt pvp should be at an even keel irrespective of gear, skillpoints, etc. I come from the world of Halo, battlefront, counterstrike, piloting games, fighter games, etc. So for me pvp should be more about the player skill and not some kind of artificial handicap for having played longer. If that is how you feel then I agree with you, but the problem is that mmorpg designers for the most part disagree with me, as do the players of said MMO's. I understand creating these artificial achievement levels for PVE but really for pvp it seems rather nonsensical to me.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>0 -
Sky Chancellor✭✭✭I think there will always be a power gap between new players and vet players, trying to change that only screws over your existing vet player base, which I don't think is a good idea. A new player shouldn't come in and expect to go toe-to-toe with someone that has been playing for months and years.
That said, I think maybe as the CS grows, they can have more tiered campaigns in cyrodiil so players are on even footing, like how they have a non-vet campaign now (not that that works perfectly, but could with some work). I also think that the fact they have stuff like diminishing returns and enlightenment to give a boost to those behind are already good enough. I mean, I can't speak for other vets, but I wouldn't play the game anymore if someone could come in and equal months of my work with a fraction of time played.
What I really don't like about the CS is they tiered passives you pick up as you put points in. I liked the concept of small bonuses as you added points in, but then suddenly having a huge gain like 12% extra crit is just going to make that many points equal to needing to be a given level for some players. I wish they didn't have those at all, but too late now. At this point, it would be better if they broke all those bonuses up into four part and the stages and you pick up, like 3% crit at 10 points, then another three at 20, etc. that way the power gap would be smaller for a player that had only put 75% as many points into that line. As it is now, having 30 points per line (90 total) is a huge power difference between having 29 points per line (87) and it shouldn't be like that IMO.
Xaraan, I never said there shouldn't be a "gap" between new players and veteran players. No one has said that on here that I've read. It's the size of the gap that people are concerned about. That is really what can kill an MMO is when people think about the grind to catch up to someone, if it's too big they leave. I know because I've seen it many times. ESO is heading down that down with the CP system if they allow max points. Even if they allow a max of something like 500 (or even lower) there will still be plenty of people who hate to have to grind those. But, at least hopefully if the number isn't too high it will encourage players to want to go get those points.
With the values of points be so low atm, we're looking at a system that has too points to begin. Which just creates more of a grind, which some people are actually fine with (I don't see how that is something that is actually fun).0
