There Needs to be a LIMIT on how many CP's or the CP system will END the game.

Garwulf · February 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

If the pvp was symmetrical I would see your point, but it's a team game. If you don't have a lot of champion points yourself, there will be a good chance that a teammate does.

sure but why should your team chose you without cps if they can chose someone with?

Whilst AP grinding Guilds* dictate to members their required build, there are other guilds that actually use tactics rather than zergs to get the end result. I personally am not interested in a guild that is essentially a 'religious' organisation .
In reality it is about team work and in a team you all do not have to be equal.

*if you PVP you know these Guilds and their main members are typically Ex Emperors or the latest one-definitely a reason not to join an 'Emp' push .

badmojo · February 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

If the pvp was symmetrical I would see your point, but it's a team game. If you don't have a lot of champion points yourself, there will be a good chance that a teammate does.

sure but why should your team chose you without cps if they can chose someone with?

The team (alliance) has no choice in the matter. You either go to war, or you don't.

Even if we're talking group or guild, why couldn't they have both players? Even low level players are valuable if they're a competent player. It's not like group and guild sizes are so limited that we're constantly on the chopping block. I've joined PVP groups as a level 10 before and nobody seemed to care, and I was still able to contribute in meaningful ways.

Even if a guild does recruit strictly for high level champions, so what? It's not like they're going to dominate the player base.

Bloodystab · February 2015

Dont worry, we will have sooner or later 2x CP weekends, some CP Boosters. In every game levelling is dumping down the longer game live.

Tankqull · February 2015

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

People will get gain CP's and ruin this game for new players down the road. There is a huge difference in power for those who get these CP's. New players will be turned off by this, and not want to play (years down the road from now). There needs to be a limit or simply there is no future for this game (it will die with the CP system).

I did a poll last week and apparently people think there is no advantage in CP's. They don't believe there is a difference between 360 and 3600. These people CLEARLY DO NOT understand what is about to happen to ESO if they allow players to maximize their CP's. You could say something like... well it will take a long time, it WILL NOT for players who play 24/7. They will gain an advantage that will make the VR power gap, look like NOTHING.

Also, the EXP potions are P2W with the CP system being involved. They give you an advantage in gaining CP's faster and therefore will create a gap between players who don't use them.

People on here need to speak up about how this system is going to ruin the game. There needs to be some people who understand that the gap that is about to be created will ruin the game for new players, and even existing players who don't play 24/7 and use EXP potions from the Crown shop.

you are worrying too much about the system. as mentioned above EQ had a similar system. if they keep the CP experience requirement constant and not change it, the amount of time will be substantially less as you progress through the system, and levels are added. don't forget that the more levels/CPs you ahve the more powerful you are, and the less time it takes to get the needed 400k per point. i won't take the 24/7 comment seriously because you it would literally kill you to play 24/7, so thats just dramatics for the sake of dramatics.

i agree with the experience potions theory though. the other question is does it stack with the subscriber's buff? this, i am not interested in supporting. im not concerned with a power-gap issue, as much as a "*** player with a CP ego".

the difference in overall strength bewtween the EQ system and the champion system is like day and night.
and that is the true problem. instead of horizontal progression you have a very steep vertical progression with certain breaking points(passives) on top of that especially the first 600-1200 points are by far to powerfull. but allready contain the XP grind of 200000-400000 VRs...
the problem is, there will be some freaks grinding that much completly stomping PvP afterwards, while in PvE certain threshhold of CPs will be demanded by you or you won´t get a spot, its the same now you don´t get a trial spot as vet 3 char in 99% of the cases and you will not in the near future if have not grinded to 120 CPs to get the +12% crit passiva e.g.

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

I am not sure why the CP system is against build diversity ? can't you respec your champion points after all or is it at a too higher cost ? (I haven't tested on PTS).

It would be nice if we could save how we have spent our champion points and have several set ups.

currently its free but i doubt it stays that way expect it to be some cashshop item.
ZOS needs to make revenues - and a CP-respec option is a perfect way to do so. 150 crowns each = 10 respecs if you stay subbed each month seams reasonable...

NewBlacksmurf · February 2015

Agh another the sky is falling on Tamriel post.....
If VR levels are removed then CP really mean more.

Even if the max is 3600, what's wrong with this. It's not like Zenimax won't make adjustments....chill out, it's only PTS

kongkim · February 2015

PVP do not always have to be fair. They played longer they get stronger.. Don't see the problem.

I however think that getting all point should be almost impossible. So make the CP exp needed higher with a % for every CP you gain. So the first ones come really easy and all get some. And the late ones are really really hard to get.

That will give all people some CP and a chance, and balance people around the middle.

nerevarine1138 · February 2015

CP progression is not as much of a game-changer as everyone seems to think.

Will there be a difference between someone with 3600 CP (which we won't see for well over a year) and someone with 0? Probably. But it's certainly not enough of a gulf to create a problem.

AshySamurai · February 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

CP progression is not as much of a game-changer as everyone seems to think.

Will there be a difference between someone with 3600 CP (which we won't see for well over a year) and someone with 0? Probably. But it's certainly not enough of a gulf to create a problem.

I would say that a person with 3600 points will be stronger by 25% than person who have 0 points.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

CP progression is not as much of a game-changer as everyone seems to think.

Will there be a difference between someone with 3600 CP (which we won't see for well over a year) and someone with 0? Probably. But it's certainly not enough of a gulf to create a problem.

To this Ill suggest you go on PTS. There is a big difference based on your comment but in PTS I read the notes as this is just a test and that the effects are greater than intended so...it's just PTS not what will release.

Tavore1138 · February 2015

kongkim wrote: »

PVP do not always have to be fair. They played longer they get stronger.. Don't see the problem.

I however think that getting all point should be almost impossible. So make the CP exp needed higher with a % for every CP you gain. So the first ones come really easy and all get some. And the late ones are really really hard to get.

That will give all people some CP and a chance, and balance people around the middle.

This would make most sense - first CP should be like the first level to get, really quick and easy, the last one should be like getting from VR13 to VR14. Sliding scale in between - CP1 costs 10k, CP180 costs 50k, CP360 costs 100k, CP1800 costs 500k, CP36000 cost 1mil. The cumulative cost of getting 3600 would be roughly the same but it would allow newer players to become viable & gain power more quickly so they don't feel left behind without a hope of competing.

That way most players who spend a decent amount of time playing will be able to unlock the passives and gain the bulk of the bonuses without having to give up jobs and family but those who wish to burn 10 hours a day playing can still gain an edge and see a tangible reward for playing more.

Yes hardcore players will have an edge in PvE and PvP but that's fair enough, the key is to make it so the biger the gap the harder it is to increase it.

The current 400K per point is an insane grind that will probably discourage players from carrying on once they have played through the existing content simply because there are no activities apart from the quests that actually award decent XP - so unless you want to play and delete dozens of alts you are kind of stuffed for ways to gain CP.

starkerealm · February 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

CP progression is not as much of a game-changer as everyone seems to think.

Will there be a difference between someone with 3600 CP (which we won't see for well over a year) and someone with 0? Probably. But it's certainly not enough of a gulf to create a problem.

Based on the PTS data, there is a pretty big jump between 3600 and 0, but... honestly... the more points you put in the less you get for them. So the gulf between someone with, say 900 and 3600 isn't really that huge.

Roechacca · February 2015

Every game there's this group of players that wants to slow leveling for other players . I don't understand the mind set .

jcasini222ub17_ESO · February 2015

Once again I don't not think there will be a problem with new players progressing normally then going into PvP and such. If person A has played 1 year more than person B I fully expect person A to have a clear, near absolute, advantage. On vet campaigns.

That being said I believe where things can go off the rails is the non-vet campaigns. Say player A has a vr 14, vr8 and another vr14. Player A is bored and decides to make a new characters, then distributed (probably but for sake of argument) 200 cp's. Upon level 11 Player A enters cyro possibly introducing freshly scaled lvl 50's to a scaled lvl 50 withe 200 cps. This power difference is too great at such a fresh entry point to the game and may turn off new players.

AshySamurai · February 2015

IMO PvP issue could be solved by CP gates as we have for non VR chars. Campaign for those who have less than 100 points (or any other amount of points) and for all other players.

Rune_Relic · February 2015

badmojo wrote: »

If the pvp was symmetrical I would see your point, but it's a team game. If you don't have a lot of champion points yourself, there will be a good chance that a teammate does.

I think it's a great thing to have virtually limitless progression in a game like this. It gets rid of my urge to be on a level playing field with everyone, because the playing field isn't level anymore.

I think the more dedicated players should get a return on their time. I think it will add depth to the combat when players have to start questioning the ability of their enemies. It won't be so much of a "our 15 guys assaulting can beat your 5 guys defending" game.

I have to admit thinking about the situation a new player will be in, with no champion points versus our head start. I wouldn't like being at a disadvantage, but it's the nature of the game and I like that the game is setup that way. I don't ever expect to be near the top of the list, but the idea that one players character can be statistically better than all the rest is awesome to me. None of this everyone gets a trophy stuff for me please.

I see where you are coming from and I respect that.
On the other side of the coin...
People play these games to have fun.....losing 100% of the time is not fun.
For that reason the game has to have a way to equalise people or at least make them competitive to some degree.
This is not single game [cant believe I just said that lol]...so you have to keep "everyone" happy.
Even the bad players have to feel PVP gives them some reason to continue playing.

I really like the idea of a running limit on the CP.
So after 365 days no one would have more than 300 CP for instance.
Those that grind are regulated from a run away situation.
Those that have no time to spare don't get completely left behind.
The playerbase as a whole is more equal.

I agree with the OP though.
There does need to be a cap for build diversity sake.
No one wants the situation where everyone with 3600 cp has identical class/race/loadout/gear.
The CP cap is the only way to stop this.

Gyudan · February 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

By limit do you mean like a weekly max amount of CP's you can earn?

they need to implement a daily limit sth like 2 per day max. tracking the days the system is implemented and everybody below the "current" cap has an unlimited CP gain per day untill he reaches the "cap" again. otherwise you will see a tremendous grindfest that you have to participate or you are screwed in endgame regardless of pve or pvp.

Knootewoot wrote: »

I already read in chat (in PvP) "i have to sleep now, just hit the 24 hour mark". Some people just seem to be without a job or study. You cannot compete with that if you work 9-10 hours and have a wife and kids and also got other things to do.

While i can play 3 hours a day maybe 4, some people play 6 times longer then me a day. So also will gain CP at a much faster rate. The gap will be bigger each day until i cannot compete anymore in PvP.

And it is not the people that need to change, but the game's levelling system. They need to keep it in balance.

I understand people who spent more time think they should have an advantage. But tell that to the empty servers when CP system fails. So far the 1.6.3 PvP is not very appealing. I get one-shotted everytime i see someone. That gets boring real quick.

Too bad they removed the LOL button. Some comments here are pretty funny.

Maybe everyone should get max level right after exiting the prison, along with a premade set of gear identical for all players and the same amount of skill/champion points. That would be soooo interesting to play and I'm sure @ZOS would retain customers forever. [/sarcasm]

GaldorP · February 2015

3'600 CP clearly makes a character A LOT stronger than 0 CP right now.

An account with 3'600 CP in the end will be able to max every single champion ability there is (100 points is the maximum you can put in a single ability), so there is really no diversity at all anymore for characters on maxed accounts.

Also, on 3'600 CP characters there's so many bonuses that some effect will trigger like every 2 seconds when they are in combat (you get bonuses for going low health, taking a lot of Magic Damage, making a successful dodgeroll, bashing a target, for example). There's so many effects, it's hard to keep track of them all.

Unfortunately, there are achievements in the current PTS game version (1.6.3) that indicate that it is actually ZOS' intention that characters can spend up to 3'600 CP in the Champion Point system (there are achievements for spending 1'200 points in the Warrior, the Mage, and the Thief constellation).

Edit: I personally don't mind if it takes a long, long time to get the maximum number of Champion Points, I'd just prefer it if there still was a choice to be made, even on accounts that have gained the maximum number of CP already.
I also think that the increased character strength of characters with lots of Champion Points will widen the gap between new players and those who have grinded lots of PvE content in PvP and will cause balance issues in PvP because the balancing was done for 0 CP characters. But then again, I believe that Cyrodiil PvP is not about 1v1 fights or duelling, it's about group gameplay, strategy, and organization.

Tankqull · February 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

People will get gain CP's and ruin this game for new players down the road. There is a huge difference in power for those who get these CP's. New players will be turned off by this, and not want to play (years down the road from now). There needs to be a limit or simply there is no future for this game (it will die with the CP system).

I did a poll last week and apparently people think there is no advantage in CP's. They don't believe there is a difference between 360 and 3600. These people CLEARLY DO NOT understand what is about to happen to ESO if they allow players to maximize their CP's. You could say something like... well it will take a long time, it WILL NOT for players who play 24/7. They will gain an advantage that will make the VR power gap, look like NOTHING.

Also, the EXP potions are P2W with the CP system being involved. They give you an advantage in gaining CP's faster and therefore will create a gap between players who don't use them.

People on here need to speak up about how this system is going to ruin the game. There needs to be some people who understand that the gap that is about to be created will ruin the game for new players, and even existing players who don't play 24/7 and use EXP potions from the Crown shop.

you are worrying too much about the system. as mentioned above EQ had a similar system. if they keep the CP experience requirement constant and not change it, the amount of time will be substantially less as you progress through the system, and levels are added. don't forget that the more levels/CPs you ahve the more powerful you are, and the less time it takes to get the needed 400k per point. i won't take the 24/7 comment seriously because you it would literally kill you to play 24/7, so thats just dramatics for the sake of dramatics.

i agree with the experience potions theory though. the other question is does it stack with the subscriber's buff? this, i am not interested in supporting. im not concerned with a power-gap issue, as much as a "*** player with a CP ego".

the difference in overall strength bewtween the EQ system and the champion system is like day and night.
and that is the true problem. instead of horizontal progression you have a very steep vertical progression with certain breaking points(passives) on top of that especially the first 600-1200 points are by far to powerfull. but allready contain the XP grind of 200000-400000 VRs...
the problem is, there will be some freaks grinding that much completly stomping PvP afterwards, while in PvE certain threshhold of CPs will be demanded by you or you won´t get a spot, its the same now you don´t get a trial spot as vet 3 char in 99% of the cases and you will not in the near future if have not grinded to 120 CPs to get the +12% crit passiva e.g.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

CP progression is not as much of a game-changer as everyone seems to think.

Will there be a difference between someone with 3600 CP (which we won't see for well over a year) and someone with 0? Probably. But it's certainly not enough of a gulf to create a problem.

To this Ill suggest you go on PTS. There is a big difference based on your comment but in PTS I read the notes as this is just a test and that the effects are greater than intended so...it's just PTS not what will release.

release probably on monday. there is not much chance in bigger changes...

dharbert · February 2015

There are always power gaps between new players and old players, that's just the way it is. In EVE Online, skills literally take months or years to train. A new player has no hope of ever catching up to an EVE player that has been playing for years, but has that discouraged new players? No. It's still one of the longest running and most played MMO's ever.

Digiman · February 2015

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

People will get gain CP's and ruin this game for new players down the road. There is a huge difference in power for those who get these CP's. New players will be turned off by this, and not want to play (years down the road from now). There needs to be a limit or simply there is no future for this game (it will die with the CP system).

I did a poll last week and apparently people think there is no advantage in CP's. They don't believe there is a difference between 360 and 3600. These people CLEARLY DO NOT understand what is about to happen to ESO if they allow players to maximize their CP's. You could say something like... well it will take a long time, it WILL NOT for players who play 24/7. They will gain an advantage that will make the VR power gap, look like NOTHING.

Also, the EXP potions are P2W with the CP system being involved. They give you an advantage in gaining CP's faster and therefore will create a gap between players who don't use them.

People on here need to speak up about how this system is going to ruin the game. There needs to be some people who understand that the gap that is about to be created will ruin the game for new players, and even existing players who don't play 24/7 and use EXP potions from the Crown shop.

Yes but those players will be spending maybe years trying to earn everything, even so the CP system starts at level 50 so no one will be going in there facing massive OP players naked. Though will have a considerably sufficient amount to help with survivabilite and most of the CP choices simply counter each other.

Finally and I can't stress this enough, those new players will be supported by other long time players who will huge CP to help them in PvP I am also pretty sure that will have matching system to make sure in instanced type PvP they won't be paired against 4 players who somehow managed to get 1200 CP in each consolation.

Finally, EXP potions are not P2W. We don't now how they will work when it goes or if they will remain that way. But I am pretty certain there will be changes to adjust it.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · February 2015

I see what you're saying but at the same time why should a new player who say, joins the end of this year, have the same amount of power as someone who has played since launch? People who have played since launch have put the time and effort to get to the point to gain the CP that they honestly deserve. A new player has not. It doesn't matter if there is CP or not. ANY game you look at with or without a CP like advancement the old players will ALWAYS have a one up on new players. Whether it be because of more experience or because they have been playing twice as long and already have the best gear.

It's like saying, "hey you're new to the game but we are going to give you the best gear in the game right off the bat so you can compete with players who worked hard to get what they earned." Making any time and effort by vet players basically useless. Didn't get the game at launch and waited for it to go F2P/B2P? Who's fault is that? I say suck it up butter cup, this isn't communism.

I'm also so sick of this idiotic discussion about XP potions being P2W when it is CLEARLY not. Say in a year a person joins. Great, the vet players who have been playing probably already have several vet characters and will at that time not even benefit from XP potions. Guess who will though? The new players trying to catch up. When the crown store has full sets of legendary gear that can be bought I will call it P2W. Until then L2P.

and people keep saying "3600 CP makes you a god and it will be so unfair to new players!" Do you actually comprehend how long it will take the vast majority of current active players to even get to that?! It's not even going to be an issue. By the time it becomes one I bet money that there will be changes well before this happens anyways.

People do not need to speak up about how this will ruin the game. What people need to do is shut up about it because they don't have a clue WTF they are talking about. This is coming from a person with only one VR14 character and I have no doubt I still will be killing people with more CP invested that me.

Morshire · February 2015

I am trying to wrap my head around how this will "ruin" the game. People are assuming that end game players won't be able to run end game stuff until they gain X cp. End game content is open when you reach end game levels. CP has no factor there. Now end game will get easier the more CP you have, but there will be no difference than what we have now. (Better gear stats and better potions, etc. It will be just another way to make it easier)

For PVP - seriously. You will get owned, or you will own, the same way with CP as we do now. Level 10's compete with level 50's in the non vet campaigns. And VR1's compete with VR14's in the vet campaigns. It is going to be the same results as if someone has 3600 CP versus the people without any CP.

As for making it easier to catch up. Look I have one VR14 character. Just got there. Been playing for months...being nice with that. No one made it easy for me to catch up. I didn't get some magical wand shoved up my bum and walla I was there. Why should anyone else? If you are worried about the gap, buy the game and get started. I mean, in two years when new players show up, should we all stop and wait for them too?

I fully comprehend what the CP will give when the system is maxed. And for those of you who haven't tried PTS....Go here and play with the numbers.:

http://asolutionaday.com/calculators-index/

The combo advanced calculator is:

http://asolutionaday.com/elder-scrolls-calculators/thief/thief-constellations-calculator/

See how long it will take to get 3600 CP. Then play with those numbers and actually see what you get. You will be surprised at how little and how long it is going to take you. And bet that when you, or anyone, actually achieves this goal, you won't be wanting people just jumping to your level cause it makes the game "funner" for them.

All the links are from this thread if you are interested and thanks to @Faugaun for making them:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150927/eso-champion-point-calculators-1-6-3-what-should-i-focus-on-next#latest

DeLindsay · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

Another thing is... what about just creating a limit for the sake of a limit to create BUILD diversity. Why not make a limit for points available so people can create unique builds based on the points given. This makes a lot more sense rather than to allow everyone the ability to get ALL the points. I don't think that makes the system fun or exciting. Thinking about where the points should go.... making decisions that are meaningful should make the system better for the short run and the long run.

By your logic, players should also not have access to all 320+ skill points either because, you know, diversity.....

If only they hadn't removed the LOL button, you'd have accrued quite a few.

^ This. And to the OP... NO!! This is no different than a Tiered gear system that puts new Players miles behind Veteran Players, it's an MMO design staple.

Cody · February 2015

Go on the PTS right now, one will see how OP people can be with all the CPs.

Unless ZOS removed all the CPs they granted of course.

Soulshine · February 2015

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

People do not need to speak up about how this will ruin the game. What people need to do is shut up about it because they don't have a clue WTF they are talking about. This is coming from a person with only one VR14 character and I have no doubt I still will be killing people with more CP invested that me.

There are some people here, myself included, who have spent huge amount of time on PTS testing out the differences that this system can give you. As of the 1.6.2 we were given the full 3600 points to spend in the system to see what effect this has on skills. We were also clearly told that the the content in the game was obviously not balanced to deal with a character that was running about with 3600 points, so we needed to keep that in mind.

Testing points with 70 CPs, 120 CPs, 300 CPs, etc. render very noticable changes in power and performance, and this has been discussed to death on PTS forums. There is obviously a great deal of further adjusting that needs to take place, removal or not of VR is still pending, balancing of a whole range of content to account for players emerging with ever increasing CPs in the system, gear retooling, and so forth.

All this being said, it is obvious that system in not going to ruin the game but needs substantial work still since this roll out is but one stage of several that will have to take place.

In the interium, I'd suggest you please refrain from telling people to "shut up about it because they don't have a clue WTF they are talking about." PTS feedback is important, and even here where some people may not have yet been on PTS to know for themselves, their concerns about the impact of the system are valuable.

Lionxoft · February 2015

Randactyl wrote: »
Consider this flowchart:
Kill a mob, 147xp is available to you.

147xp is applied toward your character level, and 147xp is applied to your champion point gain.
It is possible for experience potions to not go toward champion points by placing the modifier in the correct place:
Player drinks a x4 experience potion.

Kill a mob, 147xp is available to you.

588xp is applied toward your character level, 147xp is applied to your champion point gain.

Why would ZOS miss out on the chance to sell power? I hear it goes for a fair price.

Merlight · February 2015

Randactyl wrote: »

Player drinks a x4 experience potion.

Kill a mob, 147xp is available to you.

588xp is applied toward your character level, 147xp is applied to your champion point gain.

I doubt ZOS is willing to forfeit that money from people at max level.

Frawr · February 2015

In SWG, you got 250 skill points and had to pick skills for your template. It was balanced.

In Darkfall, you could just keep getting skills and max everything - endgame was silly.

ESO appears to be going the way of Darkfall - in a year from now, they will have to create content for super OP players (if they actually make more content after B2P) and new players will be lightyears behind.

1.5 years from now, they will massively increase the xp rate for new players to catch up. Players will rage on forums. Game will be 1 day to level to 50 with only quests. reaching level 50 will give you automatically 500 champ points (because only this way can new players join in endgame).

etc etc

I am making this up of course. I am making it up from previous experience. ESO's setup looks like it will go (or be dragged) down that path.

Sky Chancellor · February 2015

olsborg wrote: »

Personally Id like cp to cap at 360 total.

This is similar or exactly what should happen. Possibly, even allowing a player to place the points into ANY tree. Going for all mage, warrior, or thief trees. It makes sense to allow for 360 if they keep the system as is, this will allow for three trees to be maxed and for a player to reach the passives in all three.

Sky Chancellor · February 2015

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

I am not sure why the CP system is against build diversity ? can't you respec your champion points after all or is it at a too higher cost ? (I haven't tested on PTS).

It would be nice if we could save how we have spent our champion points and have several set ups.

It's against build diversity down the road - when everyone HAS THE SAME AMOUNT OF POINTS 3600. This will happen. Or when everyone has about the same amount of points is able to max out every significant star.