There Needs to be a LIMIT on how many CP's or the CP system will END the game.

Sky Chancellor · February 2015

People will get gain CP's and ruin this game for new players down the road. There is a huge difference in power for those who get these CP's. New players will be turned off by this, and not want to play (years down the road from now). There needs to be a limit or simply there is no future for this game (it will die with the CP system).

I did a poll last week and apparently people think there is no advantage in CP's. They don't believe there is a difference between 360 and 3600. These people CLEARLY DO NOT understand what is about to happen to ESO if they allow players to maximize their CP's. You could say something like... well it will take a long time, it WILL NOT for players who play 24/7. They will gain an advantage that will make the VR power gap, look like NOTHING.

Also, the EXP potions are P2W with the CP system being involved. They give you an advantage in gaining CP's faster and therefore will create a gap between players who don't use them.

People on here need to speak up about how this system is going to ruin the game. There needs to be some people who understand that the gap that is about to be created will ruin the game for new players, and even existing players who don't play 24/7 and use EXP potions from the Crown shop.

Valymer · February 2015

The same thing happened with the Alternate Advancement system in Everquest, but the mobs in each subsequent expansion gave more and more experience so new players could gain AA points at a far greater rate than when the system was first released, allowing them to grind out all the critical AA abilities rather quickly and thus close the large power gap without investing their whole lives into the game.

Gyudan · February 2015

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

New players will be turned off by this, and not want to play (years down the road from now).

As you said, this issue is not here yet and will be addressed in due time. Some possibilities have already been mentioned, like reducing the amount of XP required to get the first and most meaningful points, or adding a stronger version of enlightenment.

The Champion System isn't even on Live yet. It will take at least several months to get some meaningful balance issues.

Sky Chancellor · February 2015

Another thing is... what about just creating a limit for the sake of a limit to create BUILD diversity. Why not make a limit for points available so people can create unique builds based on the points given. This makes a lot more sense rather than to allow everyone the ability to get ALL the points. I don't think that makes the system fun or exciting. Thinking about where the points should go.... making decisions that are meaningful should make the system better for the short run and the long run.

dharbert · February 2015

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

Another thing is... what about just creating a limit for the sake of a limit to create BUILD diversity. Why not make a limit for points available so people can create unique builds based on the points given. This makes a lot more sense rather than to allow everyone the ability to get ALL the points. I don't think that makes the system fun or exciting. Thinking about where the points should go.... making decisions that are meaningful should make the system better for the short run and the long run.

By your logic, players should also not have access to all 320+ skill points either because, you know, diversity.....

If only they hadn't removed the LOL button, you'd have accrued quite a few.

Gidorick · February 2015

My honest response to this is... so what? Let them max out their characters and be amazing... Maybe the PVP aspect of this game goes stale because players get tired of getting trounced by those players that max themselves out.... those players that get obliterated will come on here, complain about the imbalance and ZOS will take 'appropriate' action... round and round we go.

Randactyl · February 2015

Consider this flowchart:

Kill a mob, 147xp is available to you.

147xp is applied toward your character level, and 147xp is applied to your champion point gain.

It is possible for experience potions to not go toward champion points by placing the modifier in the correct place:

Player drinks a x4 experience potion.

Kill a mob, 147xp is available to you.

588xp is applied toward your character level, 147xp is applied to your champion point gain.

Funkopotamus · February 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

... those players that get obliterated will come on here, complain about the imbalance and ZOS will take 'appropriate' action... round and round we go.

Why go into a house fire soaked in gasoline?

Why would a company not fix the issue BEFORE losing some of its player base.....

Wait we are talking about ZOS here so anything is possible I guess.

Faulgor · February 2015

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

Another thing is... what about just creating a limit for the sake of a limit to create BUILD diversity. Why not make a limit for points available so people can create unique builds based on the points given. This makes a lot more sense rather than to allow everyone the ability to get ALL the points. I don't think that makes the system fun or exciting. Thinking about where the points should go.... making decisions that are meaningful should make the system better for the short run and the long run.

100% Agree. Master of all is not roleplaying, nobody can ever tell me otherwise.
1800 CP should be the limit. Cuts the grind shorter, the power gap smaller and builds more diverse.

dharbert wrote: »

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

Another thing is... what about just creating a limit for the sake of a limit to create BUILD diversity. Why not make a limit for points available so people can create unique builds based on the points given. This makes a lot more sense rather than to allow everyone the ability to get ALL the points. I don't think that makes the system fun or exciting. Thinking about where the points should go.... making decisions that are meaningful should make the system better for the short run and the long run.

By your logic, players should also not have access to all 320+ skill points either because, you know, diversity.....

If only they hadn't removed the LOL button, you'd have accrued quite a few.

The basic character system is limited due to the 5 skill slot limitation for your active bar, so it's not such a huge problem here. But you're right, if it were otherwise, you shouldn't have access to that many skillpoints. It already upsets me you can max out all crafting professions on one character, but what can I do.

Sky Chancellor · February 2015

dharbert wrote: »

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

Another thing is... what about just creating a limit for the sake of a limit to create BUILD diversity. Why not make a limit for points available so people can create unique builds based on the points given. This makes a lot more sense rather than to allow everyone the ability to get ALL the points. I don't think that makes the system fun or exciting. Thinking about where the points should go.... making decisions that are meaningful should make the system better for the short run and the long run.

By your logic, players should also not have access to all 320+ skill points either because, you know, diversity.....

If only they hadn't removed the LOL button, you'd have accrued quite a few.

LOL times one million on my account, who cares? This topic is not about laughing at people, it's looking at the reality of what is going to happen when this game becomes broken because of the CP system.

Sky Chancellor · February 2015

Randactyl wrote: »
Consider this flowchart:
Kill a mob, 147xp is available to you.

147xp is applied toward your character level, and 147xp is applied to your champion point gain.
It is possible for experience potions to not go toward champion points by placing the modifier in the correct place:
Player drinks a x4 experience potion.

Kill a mob, 147xp is available to you.

588xp is applied toward your character level, 147xp is applied to your champion point gain.

I hope for the sake of the game this happens, but it still wouldn't fix the issue with the CP system making players OP. Do you think Zen will care if people gain some sort of advantage from these potions to gain CP? I don't think they care about that, I think they care about the money they can make. That is what I have seen thus far from them. That is their track record up to now.

Sky Chancellor · February 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

Another thing is... what about just creating a limit for the sake of a limit to create BUILD diversity. Why not make a limit for points available so people can create unique builds based on the points given. This makes a lot more sense rather than to allow everyone the ability to get ALL the points. I don't think that makes the system fun or exciting. Thinking about where the points should go.... making decisions that are meaningful should make the system better for the short run and the long run.

100% Agree. Master of all is not roleplaying, nobody can ever tell me otherwise.
1800 CP should be the limit. Cuts the grind shorter, the power gap smaller and builds more diverse.

dharbert wrote: »

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

Another thing is... what about just creating a limit for the sake of a limit to create BUILD diversity. Why not make a limit for points available so people can create unique builds based on the points given. This makes a lot more sense rather than to allow everyone the ability to get ALL the points. I don't think that makes the system fun or exciting. Thinking about where the points should go.... making decisions that are meaningful should make the system better for the short run and the long run.

By your logic, players should also not have access to all 320+ skill points either because, you know, diversity.....

If only they hadn't removed the LOL button, you'd have accrued quite a few.

The basic character system is limited due to the 5 skill slot limitation for your active bar, so it's not such a huge problem here. But you're right, if it were otherwise, you shouldn't have access to that many skillpoints. It already upsets me you can max out all crafting professions on one character, but what can I do.

I think 1800 CP would be a lot of CP. But, I still think your idea is better than ALL the CP. I think 500 CP would be a good number, and even then it would create a power gap that would be huge among new players. That would be better though then what exists now, and what will exist when people gain a power gap bigger than that. I think less points is better, the above post mentioned less than 360 CP.... I really don't care. It could be less than 360, would be fine with me. Thank you for posting, and you're more on the same page with me than some of the people on here that are blinded by what is going to happen here coming up.

Aneima · February 2015

What mmorpg doesn't have a power gap between new and old players? As a matter a fact most have a point system that allows you to continue to progress by spending those points on attributes etc. FF11 has merit points. Rift has attunment points. Both game are still around today. So no I don't believe this doom and gloom scenario that the CPs limit will kill ESO.

Sky Chancellor · February 2015

Aneima wrote: »

What mmorpg doesn't have a power gap between new and old players? As a matter a fact most have a point system that allows you to continue to progress by spending those points on attributes etc. FF11 has merit points. Rift has attunment points. Both game are still around today. So no I don't believe this doom and gloom scenario that the CPs limit will kill ESO.

Do you play pvp? It will kill the pvp in this game for sure. Also, how can you really think that adding 25% fire damage, 25% magic damage, 25% regen to all stats, will make you on the same level as another player will looking for a raid group? It will not. You will not be on the same level. You will be years behind, and as a new player you will likely quit. This is what is going to happen for new players.

This is especially what will happen in PVP when a 3600 rolls over a 100. It will make the VR gap now, look like NOTHING.

Soulshine · February 2015

Aneima wrote: »

What mmorpg doesn't have a power gap between new and old players? As a matter a fact most have a point system that allows you to continue to progress by spending those points on attributes etc. FF11 has merit points. Rift has attunment points. Both game are still around today. So no I don't believe this doom and gloom scenario that the CPs limit will kill ESO.

The issue is not the CPs in of themselves, whether 500 or 5000. The issue is that in most other games there is a means for actually separating new players from old players based on the content in the game and the progression of levels through that content and the point systems they carry.

Believing that once the VR system is removed and everyone will be lvl50 with X amount of CPs on one player and XXX amount on the other player, each merely playing side by side with no way to spearate them once they have hit level 50 is what is going to cause the most problems down the road. Short of content gating it will always be an issue.

Sky Chancellor · February 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

Aneima wrote: »

What mmorpg doesn't have a power gap between new and old players? As a matter a fact most have a point system that allows you to continue to progress by spending those points on attributes etc. FF11 has merit points. Rift has attunment points. Both game are still around today. So no I don't believe this doom and gloom scenario that the CPs limit will kill ESO.

The issue is not the CPs in of themselves, whether 500 or 5000. The issue is that in most other games there is a means for actually separating new players from old players based on the content in the game and the progression of levels through that content and the point systems they carry.

Believing that once the VR system is removed and everyone will be lvl50 with X amount of CPs on one player and XXX amount on the other player, each merely playing side by side with no way to spearate them once they have hit level 50 is what is going to cause the most problems down the road. Short of content gating it will always be an issue.

Thanks for the post Soulshine. I believe that the CP system could still be a very positive, and set apart players - with less points involved. I believe that a gap is alright. It's just important that the gap is lessened and then by doing that you also make the CP system create build diversity (and players are forced to pick the trees which they prefer the most).

Player gap is fine. Too big of a player gap and the game will end. It will not be fun particularly those in pvp. Perhaps in PVE people believe this is a system which is something that they prefer, and that is why there are some people who actually think max points is alright.

Maximis_ESO · February 2015

It won't ruin the game..... so many MMO's have similar progression systems. I don't understand what the deal is.... any game or any sport is about competition, either get better or play more.

Sky Chancellor · February 2015

Maximis_ESO wrote: »

It won't ruin the game..... so many MMO's have similar progression systems. I don't understand what the deal is.... any game or any sport is about competition, either get better or play more.

You mean "PLAY MORE". Someone is going to have to tell a player in future, "hey if you want to be where I am at, you need to play 3 years". That WILL motivate new players I am sure.

Really, there is a player gap that exists in all games from new players to old players. It's just the player gap in ESO without a CP cap will be extremely high.

Also, spec diversity should be considered important. Thanks for the post Max.

Randactyl · February 2015

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

I don't think they care about that, I think they care about the money they can make. That is what I have seen thus far from them. That is their track record up to now.

So all of those free content updates and the entire free 1.6 update which could easily have been a full price expansion by other game's definitions gives ZOS a track record of price gouging its players? There's a whole other world outside of that rock you're living under

Sky Chancellor · February 2015

Randactyl wrote: »

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

I don't think they care about that, I think they care about the money they can make. That is what I have seen thus far from them. That is their track record up to now.

So all of those free content updates and the entire free 1.6 update which could easily have been a full price expansion by other game's definitions gives ZOS a track record of price gouging its players? There's a whole other world outside of that rock you're living under

Like someone said, the LOL button is gone. But, I think in this case most people would take my side on this one. We were told that we would see content on an interval of what? Can a knowledgeable player let me know what that time frame was? Every three months or something, I believe? Hey, I love the game. I am grateful. I am just going by what I was told when I decided to subscribe to the game (since the beginning).

How does 1.6 qualify as a content patch? Am I missing something. Seems like the players were used (to play a beta version of the game) in order to help make the game better for the console version. Isn't that what is happening. I am sorry I think someone else needs to get underneath the rock they're living under (console ftw, is what is going on right now). It's not about content.

This thread is about the CP system. 1.6 is about the CP system, not about content.

olsborg · February 2015

Personally Id like cp to cap at 360 total.

Randactyl · February 2015

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

Randactyl wrote: »

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

I don't think they care about that, I think they care about the money they can make. That is what I have seen thus far from them. That is their track record up to now.

So all of those free content updates and the entire free 1.6 update which could easily have been a full price expansion by other game's definitions gives ZOS a track record of price gouging its players? There's a whole other world outside of that rock you're living under

Like someone said, the LOL button is gone. But, I think in this case most people would take my side on this one. We were told that we would see content on an interval of what? Can a knowledgeable player let me know what that time frame was? Every three months or something, I believe? Hey, I love the game. I am grateful. I am just going by what I was told when I decided to subscribe to the game (since the beginning).

How does 1.6 qualify as a content patch? Am I missing something. Seems like the players were used (to play a beta version of the game) in order to help make the game better for the console version. Isn't that what is happening. I am sorry I think someone else needs to get underneath the rock they're living under (console ftw, is what is going on right now). It's not about content.

This thread is about the CP system. 1.6 is about the CP system, not about content.

That's why I separated content and 1.6... You're right, the lol button is gone.

The original schedule was an update every 4 - 6 weeks with incremental patches in between to address bugs. That schedule was kept until the behemoth that is 1.6 came up.

I'm going to assume you're proposing questions even though you have not denoted them as such.

Whether players were "used to beta test" is a matter of personal opinion. I do not share this opinion with you, as I feel I have gotten plenty of enjoyment from my sub.

This thread is supposed to be about the Champion System. Remind me again who brought up pay to win, ZOS being greedy purse snatchers, and now consoles?

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

By limit do you mean like a weekly max amount of CP's you can earn?

Tankqull · February 2015

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

By limit do you mean like a weekly max amount of CP's you can earn?

they need to implement a daily limit sth like 2 per day max. tracking the days the system is implemented and everybody below the "current" cap has an unlimited CP gain per day untill he reaches the "cap" again. otherwise you will see a tremendous grindfest that you have to participate or you are screwed in endgame regardless of pve or pvp.

kevlarto_ESO · February 2015

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

... those players that get obliterated will come on here, complain about the imbalance and ZOS will take 'appropriate' action... round and round we go.

Why go into a house fire soaked in gasoline?

Why would a company not fix the issue BEFORE losing some of its player base.....

Wait we are talking about ZOS here so anything is possible I guess.

It's not just ZOS it is every mmo company, I have played mmo's since the 90's and everyone of them at some point has had a major fubar, they put in a feature or made changes that just drove the player base crazy or drove them away, not sure where the cp system will fall, I hope in the long run it turns out to be a good thing, but it does leave some questions atm.
I wish they would start talking a little bit about things to look forward to after the console launch, to me I am in a wait and see how they operate the store.

Knootewoot · February 2015

I already read in chat (in PvP) "i have to sleep now, just hit the 24 hour mark". Some people just seem to be without a job or study. You cannot compete with that if you work 9-10 hours and have a wife and kids and also got other things to do.

While i can play 3 hours a day maybe 4, some people play 6 times longer then me a day. So also will gain CP at a much faster rate. The gap will be bigger each day until i cannot compete anymore in PvP.

And it is not the people that need to change, but the game's levelling system. They need to keep it in balance.

I understand people who spent more time think they should have an advantage. But tell that to the empty servers when CP system fails. So far the 1.6.3 PvP is not very appealing. I get one-shotted everytime i see someone. That gets boring real quick.

badmojo · February 2015

If the pvp was symmetrical I would see your point, but it's a team game. If you don't have a lot of champion points yourself, there will be a good chance that a teammate does.

I think it's a great thing to have virtually limitless progression in a game like this. It gets rid of my urge to be on a level playing field with everyone, because the playing field isn't level anymore.

I think the more dedicated players should get a return on their time. I think it will add depth to the combat when players have to start questioning the ability of their enemies. It won't be so much of a "our 15 guys assaulting can beat your 5 guys defending" game.

I have to admit thinking about the situation a new player will be in, with no champion points versus our head start. I wouldn't like being at a disadvantage, but it's the nature of the game and I like that the game is setup that way. I don't ever expect to be near the top of the list, but the idea that one players character can be statistically better than all the rest is awesome to me. None of this everyone gets a trophy stuff for me please.

Syntse · February 2015

I get that PvP players want even playing field where everyone are "equal" and for that cap that everyone can achieve is prolly needed.

For PvE many like progression even little one but still something to aim towards to. If there would be cap that can be obtained in few months then it's like you just finished the game nothing more to aim towards to. I'm already seeing this with my VR14 char. I do pledges and attend the trials but that's it. I might get some new gear but the char itself is just as is and it's getting boring not to be able to grow it more.

Tankqull · February 2015

badmojo wrote: »

If the pvp was symmetrical I would see your point, but it's a team game. If you don't have a lot of champion points yourself, there will be a good chance that a teammate does.

sure but why should your team chose you without cps if they can chose someone with?

ahstin2001nub18_ESO · February 2015

Sky Chancellor wrote: »

People will get gain CP's and ruin this game for new players down the road. There is a huge difference in power for those who get these CP's. New players will be turned off by this, and not want to play (years down the road from now). There needs to be a limit or simply there is no future for this game (it will die with the CP system).

I did a poll last week and apparently people think there is no advantage in CP's. They don't believe there is a difference between 360 and 3600. These people CLEARLY DO NOT understand what is about to happen to ESO if they allow players to maximize their CP's. You could say something like... well it will take a long time, it WILL NOT for players who play 24/7. They will gain an advantage that will make the VR power gap, look like NOTHING.

Also, the EXP potions are P2W with the CP system being involved. They give you an advantage in gaining CP's faster and therefore will create a gap between players who don't use them.

People on here need to speak up about how this system is going to ruin the game. There needs to be some people who understand that the gap that is about to be created will ruin the game for new players, and even existing players who don't play 24/7 and use EXP potions from the Crown shop.

you are worrying too much about the system. as mentioned above EQ had a similar system. if they keep the CP experience requirement constant and not change it, the amount of time will be substantially less as you progress through the system, and levels are added. don't forget that the more levels/CPs you ahve the more powerful you are, and the less time it takes to get the needed 400k per point. i won't take the 24/7 comment seriously because you it would literally kill you to play 24/7, so thats just dramatics for the sake of dramatics.

i agree with the experience potions theory though. the other question is does it stack with the subscriber's buff? this, i am not interested in supporting. im not concerned with a power-gap issue, as much as a "*** player with a CP ego".

Sotha_Sil · February 2015

I am not sure why the CP system is against build diversity ? can't you respec your champion points after all or is it at a too higher cost ? (I haven't tested on PTS).

It would be nice if we could save how we have spent our champion points and have several set ups.